Instigator / Pro
1537
rating
13
debates
50.0%
won
Topic

Islam vs Athiesm

Status
Debating

Waiting for the contender's second argument.

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Category
Religion
Time for argument
One week
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Open voting
Voting period
One month
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Contender / Con
1685
rating
413
debates
66.95%
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Description
~ 261 / 5,000

I, Rayhan16, am on the side of Islam. I want to debate a contender that is on the side of atheism. The basis of this debate is the following:

Which is the true belief. Islam or Atheism. The belief of one God with all of His teachings, or the belief of no God.

Round 1
Pro
The basis of this debate is to find out which is the correct belief out of the two. Which belief makes the most sense, with the most logic and the most intellect. The fundamentals of each belief are described below. 

Atheism

-Belief in no God
-Various other beliefs on how the universe was created, all fall flat as I will analyse. 
-Belief that when you die, nothing will happen

Islam

-Belief in 1 True God
-Belief that God has created the universe 
-Belief that when you die, you will get judged based on the previous actions of your life. 

From the basic understanding of Atheism, it is pretty obvious that it is just a lack of belief, not an actual belief.

I will describe why I, as a Muslim, accept that there is 1 true God. 


I will point out the flaws of Atheism first




1. SOME theists/atheists believe that the universe came from nothing. 

This is the belief that something (the universe) came from nothing. Now the definition of nothing is 'the absence of everything'. If there was nothing, then it couldn't possibly make something. This is impossible. I may even go as far to say that nothing doesn't even exist. Lets take the example of 0=1. It doesn't. Lets take another example. I have nothing in my wallet. No cash, no card, it is empty. The wallet is bare, it has never had money, and it will never have money. I reach into my pocket and take my wallet (which is empty) out. I reach in the wallet and I take £50 out. This is the logic of 'nothing creating something'. A pure fallacy. It is flawed, it has no relevance in society today. If there was nothing, there always has to be nothing. If there was something, there always has to be something. This is just common sense. I hope I have proved that nothing cannot make something. Which means, there always has to be something, which means the universe has to be created by something. 

2. Multiverse theory

This is another flawed theory. The idea of this is there are many universes, some may say infinite universes. This is yet again, illogical. A universe is dependant. It contains dependant things, and the universe itself depends and relies on time and space. Without time and space, the universe just would not exist. Time is space is relied on by the universe to exist, which makes it dependant. This completely destroys the infinite universe theory, as a dependant thing cannot infinitely make more dependant things, this is another fallacy. Only an independent entity can create a dependant entity  like the universe, as if a dependant entity created the universe, then it begs the question, who created that dependant entity? Even if it is not an infinite number of universes, lets say there are 500,000. It all goes back to the same question. What created universe number 1. And what created universe number 500. We need to use out brains to think about this. If you say, another universe, I say what create that. It then turns into an infinite regress, which is illogical, as I am sure Con knows this. There has to be a starting and stopping point. 

3. Energy

Energy is yet again, not logical. You may say, energy is uncreated, it cannot be created or destroyed. However, energy cannot have made the universe as it has no will. All the planets, the stars, the earth, the moon, the trees, the plants, it is not logical for it to be made by energy. It has no will nor any direction. The main thing is will. If anything has no will, it could not create something as complex as the universe. For example, I want to make a cup of tea. There is milk in the fridge, there is teabags and sugar in the cupboards. A spoon is in the cutlery section and the kettle is on the far side of the kitchen. I have all the ingredients, however I do not want to make the tea by moving myself. Let us just say that I can exist for 1 million years. I can stand in my kitchen for a million years and the cup of tea will not be made. I need a will to do something. I need to practically move my hand to the fridge and get the milk etc. So will determines if something is created. 


4. Randomness

Some may say the universe was created by chance. That it was all random. This is yet again, illogical. Lets take us back to the cup of tea. If I get a hammer, and I smash the kitchen, I smash it in random places, I smash the floor, the ceiling, the drawers, the cupboards, the fridge, the microwave, the toaster, the cups, the spoons the washing machine, the clock etc. I smash all of these randomly. Let us just say that I am blindfolded. So I do not know what I am smashing, this is all random. Am I going to get my cup of tea when I am done? I rest my case. 

5. The Big Bang

This is one of the most widely accepted theories to how the universe exists. However, it has one flaw. It does not actually describe how the universe began to exist. The matter exploded and I think we all know the rest. The question that we all are begging to ask is, where did that matter come from? It only describes the creation of the universe from a point where there was already something that is dependant. No scientist can actually go back from this time. No scientist can say what was before this matter, because ultimately, they do not know. So the Big Bang theory is not really a relevant one. 

6. Fluctuations

Hawking's theory is not quite right. If the universe fluctuates from nothing to something, again it would be impossible. As nothing does not even exist, how could nothing fluctuate to something. There is nothing there for goodness sake!

This is what we understand what God is. An independent, self sufficient, necessary, entity that has will, omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence. 

This is the first challenge of the debate. 

I challenge Con, to give me 1 theory of how the universe was created, taking into account that it cannot be made from nothing, nor energy, nor another universe, nor the big bang, nor randomness nor fluctuations. This is a challenge for Con, I will judge if Con has fulfilled the challenge in the next round. 

This is the part for Atheism done. Now let us move to Islam. 

Islam

The belief in 1 creator who sent down Prophets to send a message to humanity. There has been a Prophet on every region of earth, we understand that there has been at least 124,000 Prophets with 25 being mentioned in the Holy Quran. 

The Quran in itself is a miracle. Who could it have been made by. I do not know Con's belief system, he is 'rational' yet picks atheism to defend, a bit contradictory there.  Let's assume that the Quran has 3 options to whom it could have written it. Humans, the devil, God. Let's assess humans. If we look at the Bible and the Torah, we find many contradictions. Many copyist errors and many errors in general. Even Christians will admit that the Bible in its entirety is not from God, but was written by humans and supposed to be an 'inspired word of God'. If there is a book that contains contradictions, that humans have failed to preserve for thousands of years, then it was obviously written by humans. Surely, if a book was written by humans, it would have copyist errors, it could not have been changed, it would have contradictions. This does not apply to the Quran therefore leaving it with 2 options. I will continue these 2 options after the next challenge. 

Challenge N0.2

I challenge Con to find me 1 contradiction or error in the Quran. This is a challenge where I, as an advocate for Islam, a representative of Islam will judge on his 'basis' of a contradiction and respond accordingly. 

Now we can move onto the remaining 2 options. The devil and God. If the devil has written the Quran, then ask yourself this question. Why does it say in many and numerous verses to seek refuge from the devil in the Quran? The Quran tells people actively to give charity, to worship the one creator, to be kind to your parents etc.  These are not acts of supporting the devil. Then if Con wants to bring the 'satanic verses' which are supposed to be in the Quran, these do not exist. Verified by many Islamic scholars. 

Therefore, I have concluded that the Quran can only be written by God. 

The Risk Factor

Who takes more of a risk? An atheist that does not believe in God, that follows the earthly desires and the one who is a slave to society? Or a Muslim who believes in God and the Last day etc? And you may say an atheist is more happy; who determines happiness? I am very happy too. 

That is all for my opening statements and cannot wait to answer and refute both answers to the challenges I have presented to Con. 





Con
Islam refers to everyone who doesn't believe in Allah as a variant of 'disbeliever' which is why Pro's case itself is based as if it is Theism vs atheism, the problem for Pro is that Islam is actually enemy of all religions, meaning atheism is not against Theism here, it is against specifically Islam.

This is such a fundamental problem for Islam and is linked to some disturbing notions within it regarding especially Christians and Jews.

[2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

Let's observe the same book/section (2) with verses around 88 and 98 
And [recall] when We took the covenant from the Children of Israel, [enjoining upon them], "Do not worship except Allah ; and to parents do good and to relatives, orphans, and the needy. And speak to people good [words] and establish prayer and give zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you were refusing.

84 And [recall] when We took your covenant, [saying], "Do not shed each other's blood or evict one another from your homes." Then you acknowledged [this] while you were witnessing.

85 Then, you are those [same ones who are] killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

86 Those are the ones who have bought the life of this world [in exchange] for the Hereafter, so the punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be aided.

87 And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

88 And they said, "Our hearts are wrapped." But, [in fact], Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is it that they believe.

89 And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.

90 How wretched is that for which they sold themselves - that they would disbelieve in what Allah has revealed through [their] outrage that Allah would send down His favor upon whom He wills from among His servants. So they returned having [earned] wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment.

91 And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?"

92 And Moses had certainly brought you clear proofs. Then you took the calf [in worship] after that, while you were wrongdoers.

93 And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers."

94 Say, [O Muhammad], "If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is for you alone and not the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful.

95 But they will never wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers.

96 And you will surely find them the most greedy of people for life - [even] more than those who associate others with Allah . One of them wishes that he could be granted life a thousand years, but it would not remove him in the least from the [coming] punishment that he should be granted life. And Allah is Seeing of what they do.

97 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers."

98 Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.

99 And We have certainly revealed to you verses [which are] clear proofs, and no one would deny them except the defiantly disobedient.

100 Is it not [true] that every time they took a covenant a party of them threw it away? But, [in fact], most of them do not believe.

101 And when a messenger from Allah came to them confirming that which was with them, a party of those who had been given the Scripture threw the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know [what it contained].

102 And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]." And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah . And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But the Children of Israel certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.

This all seems relatively tame, it even preaches/hints as peace with the 'bloodshed' line.

Yet in the very same section of Qur'an (2) we get these:
153 O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.

154 And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.

155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

156 Who, when disaster strikes them, say, "Indeed we belong to Allah , and indeed to Him we will return."
     
157 Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided.
Same source as above

In fact let's see the line 'killed in the way of Allah' in several translations before we simultaneously debunk Pro implying the Qur'an has never been changed and that there are no contradictions.

Remember, in the exact same section (2, 'the cow') that it is said bloodshed is not to be done and turning people away from homes Allah is against, it says to slay/kill people in the way of Allah and that Allah will forgive it for it is not 'real killing'.


  And say not of those who are slain in God's cause, "They are dead": nay, they are alive, but you perceive it not

  Never say that those martyred in the cause of Allah are dead—in fact, they are alive! But you do not perceive it.

  Do not say that those killed in God's path are dead; they are alive, though you do not realize it.

Now, this can be said to just be translation, sure, yet the Hadith and Qur'an have been censored and altered over time to leave out rather horrific parts (oh yes, there are parts worse than this but this is among the most horrifying as it appears early on in the Qur'an and sets precedent for Islamic terrorism).

Even more interesting to me is that Islam itself (Sharia law and even Shi'ite not just Sunni culture) would sooner censor science itself than tweak their Qur'an, so even if Pro were correct that the Qur'an hadn't changed, what does change and is censored is everything real that interferes with it.

They will censor absolutely anything in ordere to maintain their fairytale Qur'an as truth and need to do so because the truth is so obviously true that their fear and lashing out in fear (literally lashing at times) is how the Islamic societies maintain and keep Islam going.

In fact, Islam is so pro-censorship and avoiding 'changing' as Pro prides it on that it will censor its own:
During the debate about Islam and democracy, Muslim religious scholars and intellectuals have fallen into three broad camps.
The first camp rejects both democracy and secularism as Western concepts that are not even worth refuting. In this fundamentalist view, participating even in everyday politics, such as joining a political party or voting, is haram, or religiously forbidden. This view has been the position of the Wahhabi clerics in Saudi Arabia, the Taliban in Afghanistan, and—for decades—the various Salafi schools.

The second camp claims that returning to the “true tenets” of Islam will create the best kind of democracy. In this conservative view, the faithful may deliberate to understand the true path, but the idea that religion is the ultimate truth is not negotiable. These Islamists invoke the concept of towhid, or the oneness, uniqueness, and sovereignty of God, which can never be replaced by the will of the people.

But the second camp also invokes Muslim practices to claim that modern political ideology meets the basic requirements of democracy. For example, it says the shura, the forum or council for deliberations, is the equivalent of a parliament.

The third camp advocates ijtihad, or reinterpreting Islam to make it compatible with the universal concept of democracy. This position is more common among lay intellectuals than among clerics. But opening up the doors of ijtihad, which conservative scholars had believed were closed since the Middle Ages, has already produced its own spectrum of ideas, not all in agreement with each other.

The Islamist reformers often have a larger audience in the West than in their own countries, not just because of domestic censorship and harassment. Some reformers are deemed to be too intellectual, too abstract, or too tied to an artificial theology. Their philosophical approach is disconnected from popular religious practices, and the teachings at most madrassas, or religious schools.

The fact is that the reason there even are able to be moderate vs extremist Muslims is because Moderates are actually ignoring many extreme lines in Islam (and that is a good thing). It's a backwards, horrific text that has lines like this:

Sahih International: O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

This is not at all taken out of context, if Pro dares to look at what is said elsewhere in verse 5 the entire section/book/verse is about staying so loyal to Allah that one would never dare befriend outside of Islam.

So, it's firstly a direct sin to be a friend of a Christian or Jew, yet it teaches to tolerate elsewhere.

Meanwhile it also says this:

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

My goodness gracious me.

Now, remember, Islam blatantly and clearly rules out absolutely all religions that offer alternative pro-god stances than Islam.

However, Pro's biggest issue is that absolutely every flaw Pro can find with atheist reality, is in fact to be found with Allah himself.

Atheists think reality has no clear origin, big bang is about the universe but not about what was there prior to it and that theory is even supported by a Quranic verse I am sure Pro will be happy to provide. What the big bang doesn't explain or deny is what was there prior to it.

Atheist reality is as mysterious as Allah without having the added step of asserting there is a named, known entity beyond/behind it all. This means that no matter how absurd the atheist reality's origin and inner workings are, Islam makes a very errenous extra step that completely and utterly defies logic in blindly believing.

In fact, the biggest and most brutal contradiction of Islam is that gambling is a sin in Islam, yet it relies on you betting your whole life on Allah being the real god.
Round 2
Pro
Islam refers to everyone who doesn't believe in Allah as a variant of 'disbeliever'
Allah is simply the creator of the universe. He is God. It is as simple as that. If I do not believe in Jesus being God, am I a disbeliever of Christianity? Yes of course I am, as that is a fundamental belief. 

This is such a fundamental problem for Islam and is linked to some disturbing notions within it regarding especially Christians and Jews.
I have read Con's entire argument, and I disagree with a lot he says. Let us get on with it. 

Off the bat, it is a ridiculous start to a debate from Con here. He has sent a lot of quotes with not too much points around it. 

This is what we believe about Jews and Christians. We can be their friends, we can give charity to them, we can aid them. Con is confused here. Only in a circumstance of war must we not take them as allies. It is so simple to understand, yet those who try to decode this and fail, are ultimately in the wrong. 

Remember, in the exact same section (2, 'the cow') that it is said bloodshed is not to be done and turning people away from homes Allah is against, it says to slay/kill people in the way of Allah and that Allah will forgive it for it is not 'real killing'.
The only way Muslims can kill in the way of Allah, is in war. And to go to war, Muslims must follow a Holy War Criteria. 

-Muslims must let the enemy attack first and then they can retaliate
-Muslims must not harm any plants or wildlife
-Muslims cannot kill innocent people, women or children
-War must be led by a Muslim leader. 

That is the criteria for the rest of the debate. If Con keeps on referring to warfare, and killing and murder, this is what Muslims follow. So voters, I urge you to take into account this criteria, for this nullifies all arguments that Con has presented. 

it says to slay/kill people in the way of Allah and that Allah will forgive it for it is not 'real killing'.
I am struggling to find this in the quotes that Con has sent. 

  And say not of those who are slain in God's cause, "They are dead": nay, they are alive, but you perceive it not

  Never say that those martyred in the cause of Allah are dead—in fact, they are alive! But you do not perceive it.

  Do not say that those killed in God's path are dead; they are alive, though you do not realize it.
I don't get what the problem is here. It is a matter of translation. Olden Arabic, which I presume Con knows none of, can mean that 1 word equals an entire sentence. A miracle of the Quran. The basis of this quote is, those who are killed in war, humans would think they are dead, however their souls are alive  but humans do not realize this. I do not get the problem here, Con care to explain?

Also this 'islamawakened' site is just another site that hates Islam. It is an anti-Islamic site. 

Now, this can be said to just be translation, sure, yet the Hadith and Qur'an have been censored and altered over time to leave out rather horrific parts (oh yes, there are parts worse than this but this is among the most horrifying as it appears early on in the Qur'an and sets precedent for Islamic terrorism).
Please give me one horrific thing that the Hadith or Quran actually left out. 

Remember the Holy War criteria, this terrorism is nonsense, Islam has no part in it. 

The next few paragraphs that Con refers to, are clearly irrelevant, seems like Con is just going on a rant rather than addressing my points. 

The fact is that the reason there even are able to be moderate vs extremist Muslims is because Moderates are actually ignoring many extreme lines in Islam (and that is a good thing). It's a backwards, horrific text that has lines like this:

Sahih International: O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
This is referring to warfare. Something which is clearly not allowed, is taking the enemy, Jews and Christians (in war), as allies. This is prohibited. Out of context by Con. 

This is not at all taken out of context
To you it is. 

So, it's firstly a direct sin to be a friend of a Christian or Jew, yet it teaches to tolerate elsewhere.
Can be a friend, just not in warfare. This is extremely simple to understand. The interesting thing is actually, there is at least 1 thing that the radical Muslim extremists and people like Con have in common. They both believe that Islam is a violent religion. I urge Con and voters to listen to this 13 minute video, clearly explaining why Islam is not. 


Insightful video to say the least. Let's carry on. 

8:12-17- Go to 8:1 and read from there. It is talking about war, yet again. 

It is an absolute abomination from Con so far. He had a week to prepare for this, I wanted him to try his best however he has failed to succeed at that. I don't think he has made 1 valid point yet. 

 that theory is even supported by a Quranic verse I am sure Pro will be happy to provide
One of the many miracles of the Quran. 

21:30-Do the disbelievers not realize that the heavens and earth were ˹once˺ one mass then We split them apart? And We created from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Not only does it talk about the big bang, but also how every living thing is created from water. What is the first thing that astronauts look for when discovering a new planet? Water, as that is the source for  life. 
Also, how did the Quran know about the big bang 1400 years before it was even discovered? 

In fact, the biggest and most brutal contradiction of Islam is that gambling is a sin in Islam, yet it relies on you betting your whole life on Allah being the real god.
It all comes down to this. There is logical proof and physical proof that God exists. The logical proof is the creator of the universe must be independent, self sufficient, immortal, have a will and omnipotent for the universe to exist. This can only be God. The physical proof is the Quran itself. No contradictions, no errors and no copious errors. Con has not refuted any of my points about the Quran. Con has not fulfilled any of my challenges. Remember I set 2 challenges, none have been answered. 

(Quran 17:88)
(Quran 11:13)
(Quran 2:23)

The Quran clearly makes a challenge for humanity. The challenge is for any unbeliever to make even a chapter like one in the Quran. This challenge has not been fulfilled for 1400 years. People have tried and failed. This challenge is another sign for a miracle. The Quran says that it cannot be changed nor corrupted, this challenge still hasn't been proved wrong and it will never be. Children at the age of 6 are memorising the entire Quran. 

If we take away the Bible and the Torah and bring it back in 1000 years, barely anyone will remember a thing. However, if we do the same with the Quran, it wouldn't matter, as million of people have already memorised it, therefore, it would not change. Amazing

The conclusion is very short. Con has not done anything to even scratch one of my arguments, and my challenges and my points. The refutation burden that Con holds has not been fulfilled, therefore, I won the 1st round of the debate. 

And also, about the gambling bit, we Muslims have proof as I have already explained. But still, disbelievers will continue. 
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Round 3
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