Instigator / Pro
6
1890
rating
98
debates
93.37%
won
Topic
#3704
Resolved: The United States is, on balance, a better country than North Korea.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
0
1
After 1 vote and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
Novice_II
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
4
1309
rating
270
debates
40.74%
won
Description
The burden of proof is shared.
Pro: The US is, on balance, a better country than North Korea.
Con: North Korea is, on balance, a better country than the US.
Round 1
Con
#2
1) North Korea is also known as Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.
On Youtube, the country is often labeled as "Best Korea", "True Korea", "The Only Korea", "Peoples Korea", "Songun Korea", "Juche Korea"...ect.
2) USA on Youtube is well known as "the terrorist USA" and "the US aggressor", and also often mentioned in sentences like "death to USA" and "death to America".
3) The peaceful Korea
North Korea in its entire existence never invaded anyone. All of its wars and interventions were of defensive nature.
4) Over 70 years of aggressions
USA seems to be fighting wars all over the world throughout the past 70 years. Shooting children with drones, US snipers saying children are their "hot targets" because "they could be carrying a bomb", bombing kindergartens, bombing schools, bombing civilian targets, killing 15 children just to kill 1 "terrorist", killing children just because they are playing in the wrong place... all that is normal for USA. Also using chemical weapons such as Agent Orange.
In Vietnam alone, 3 million harmed and deformed by chemical weapons used by US.
5) Supporting and encouraging civil wars
USA actively armed and supported rebels in Syria and Libya to overthrow the governments in those countries. That caused almost million deaths.
6) American suicide and deaths
USA is so great that over 40000 of US Americans kill themselves every year. Another 38000 dies in car accidents. Another 14000 gets shot.
7) Circumcision rates
Apparently, in the USA, you have a right to do this to a baby.
Forced circumcisions:
8) Bullying in schools
A tradition in US public schools is to have your head pushed into the toilet by older kids and be locked up in a closet for a certain amount of time so you could "man up" and "stop being a girl".
9) School shootings
As a response to 8), certain people decide to shoot up their school to prove that they have "manned up".
"The U.S. has had 2,032 school shootings since 1970 and these numbers are increasing. Alarmingly, 948 school shootings have taken place since the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School in December 2012."
https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/blog/gun-violence/16-facts-about-gun-violence-and-school-shootings/
10) War on pedophilia
It seems that U.S. Americans hate pedophilia so much that they treat pedophiles like they were some kind of monsters.
Prisoner explains what he did to a pedophile:
“So, I got down and I hit him in his face a few times. When he fell, I wrapped a cord around his neck and I took his life.”
11) Population in prison/reeducation camp
It seems that USA has the largest amount and largest percentage of population in prison.
1 in 30 black people in the USA are in prison.
Over 2 million people are in prison in the USA.
12) Abuse in prisons/reeducation camps
It seems that torture is normal in US prisons. Every day there is rape and beating. Most prisoners describe prison as "hell", "torture" and "very bad place".
Rape is very popular in the USA:
"1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime"
13) Mass abortions
2 million children aborted every year?
14) Sending children to prisons/reeducation camps
Apparently, its normal in the USA to send children to prisons. The chance of being raped highly increases for those children. But thats just part of "manning up". Up until 2005, it was legal to sentence children to death.
"Kids as young as eight can still be charged as an adult, held in an adult jail, and sentenced to extreme sentences in an adult prison."
15) Country that hates children
America has more insulting words for the children than it has for the terrorists. Words like "you are just a little brat", "why are you not as good as your brother", "you will never amount to anything", "you are a loser", "you are acting like a girl", "get over it", "stop being a -----", "do you want to burn in hell", "you are such a disappointment", "you little ----", "you are making your mother cry"
Also, if children disobey they often get "some sense beaten into them".
16) The Fat Lady
Apparently, in the USA, 30% of people are overweight.
17) The free speech
There is free speech in the USA until you try to sext a minor. Then its prison and being beaten and maybe killed.
Defending pedophiles in public could get you killed or have "some sense beaten into you".
18) The growing popularity of child porn in the USA
"Child pornography is one of the fastest growing crimes in the USA...with 2500% increase in arrests"
"When US Americans search for porn, they often search with words such as: "hentai porn", "stepmom porn", "stepdaughter porn"...
19) Some US American citizens had a message for native american indians: "They should go back to where they came from."
I wish I was making this up.
20) They cant breathe
Apparently, USA holds the world record among developed countries in number of citizens killed by police every year.
21) Cost of having children
Apparently, US americans have to pay 2000$ a month for babysitting or kindergarten. Also 60000$ for college. With average wage being 3600$, one must wonder is it even worth it to have kids.
22) The cost of home
In USA, you need to pay over 1000$ rent a month or 60000$ in total for a small apartment.
23) Price of family per month
Food: 900$
Transport: 800$
Utilities: 230$
Clothes: 120$
Housing: 1800$
Babysit: 2000$
Healthcare: 500$
College: gotta save 60000$ for cheapest college for every child, so 500$ every month if you have 2 kids.
Total: Over 6700$ every month for these basic needs.
Thats if you have only 2 kids. Have more, price goes up even more.
Lets not forget that you need to save money for retirement too.
With average two wages of 3600$, it seems basics are covered...barely. But what if the wage is below average?
24) USA says that North Korea should abandon its nuclear weapons program so that USA can invade North Korea and make sure North Koreans have a good life like the life USA and Iraq have right now.
25) There seems to be a growing popularity of being homeless in the USA.
26) Unlike the USA, there is no child porn anywhere in North Korea.
Apparently, being protected in Socialist state has some benefits for children living there.
27) There are no homeless people in North Korea.
28) Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles
USA only has 405 ICBMs? Currently, North Korea is counting at least about 0.15 per 100,000 population, accounting for just over 40 ICBMs just being revealed on military parades. Its actually assumed North Korea has over 100 ICBMs, but I took 40 as enough. USA only has 0.12 per 100,000 population. This is lower than what North Korea has.... Why cant USA step up its game? North Korea is under sanctions, and has little territory and resources.
29) United States of Junk Food
Apparently, eating bad food is popular. You get fat and your teeth fall out. Its the US way.
30) USA has the "every country must listen to USA" policy. "Only US and France should have nuclear weapons. This is fair and makes sense, according to US and France."
31) North Korea gives free houses
Interview with North Koreans, how orphans in North Korea are treated:
32) North Korea does best military parades and is the most beautiful
33) North Korea has the largest military in the world, counting 7.7 million troops
Military: 1.3 million
Paramilitary: 5.8 million
Reserve: 600.000
34) North Korea is a nuclear superpower that has the ability to fight a war on any location, as the range of its ICBMs covers the entire world.
35) In case of a war, North Korea wins
Right at the start it says:
"The media of the world gave wide publicity to the news that in a computer simulation of the US department of defense North Korea won and the United States lost."
"They added that leader Kim Jong Il is the most famous of the famous commanders."
"Kim Jong Il burns the White House with the fires of guerrillas rekindled on Mount Paektu. Kim Jong Il is a champion of global peace leading the world politics with surreal ability in weapons."
Round 2
Pro
#3
- I will apologize for forfeiting round one, and simply make my case as well as respond to con's constructive.
x. Affirmation
P1: If on balance, empirical evidence indicates that the average human being would experience a greater quality of life in the United States in comparison to North Korea, the United States is, on balance, a better country than North Korea.
P2: Empirical evidence suggests that the average human being would experience a greater quality of life in the United States in comparison to North Korea.
C: Therefore, the United States is, on balance, a better country than North Korea.
x.1 P2 affirmation(s)
I. Economics/Society
- The US has a GDP per capita of 63,543.58 compared to $683 of North Korea. The US also ranks 25th on the economic freedom index compared to North Korea, which ranks 177th.
- The US has a poverty rate of 11.4% compared to North Korea, which has a poverty rate of 60%.
- In addition to this, the Human Development Index, the United States ranks 17th. North Korea does not have HDI information as of now, but based on the aforementioned and subsequent statistics we can safely infer the US ranks above North Korea.
II. Health/Healthcare
- On the Global Health and Security Index, the United States ranks 1st out of 195 regions, whereas North Korea ranks 193rd/195 countries comparatively. In addition, 42.4% of the North Korean population is malnourished.
III. Freedom
- On the Democracy Index, the United States ranks 26th compared to North Korea which ranks 165th.
- According to Freedom in the World 2022, the United States is classified as a free country. Comparatively, North Korea is among a collection of only 16 countries that "have the worst aggregate scores for political rights and civil liberties."
- North Korea is also described by Human Rights Watch as "one of the most repressive authoritarian states in the world," making the region a volatile area for the human rights of innocent people.
Rebuttal(s)
- Con's case is a major collection of non-arguments (1, 2, 10, 15, 17, 19, 24, 28, 30, 32, 35) and unsubstantiated claims (21, 23, 27, 33). I encourage people to look at these specific numbers to understand they can be ignored/discarded. I will divide the points that actually hold relevance into sectioned rebuttals.
a. Shootings/violence
- School/Police shootings are cumulatively rare infrequent occurrences in the United States and pale in comparison to the human rights abuses and arbitrary killings and murder in prison camps North Koreans are subjected to regularly by their own government.
b. Prison
- North Korea has a greater percentage of its population in prison than even the US, and this is accounting for political prisoners alone. There are 1,215,800 prisoners in the US out of a population of 329.5 million which amounts to a rate of 0.37%. In comparison, there are over 200,000 in political prison camps only. Out of a population 25.78 million amounting to a rate of 0.77%. Thus even taking the proportion of prisoners in North Korea they still have a higher incarceration rate whereas North Korea imprisons innocent people and subjects them to torturous labor.
c. Crimes
- In North Korea, as shown above, the government is the main proponent of crimes against humanity, which they inflict on their own people making the region the 15th most dangerous country in the world. This is to establish that the level of risk living in the US is incomparable to that of North Korea.
d. Nutrition
- As shown, a far worse issue in North Korea given that nearly half of the population is malnourished. The United States has a higher average life expectancy than North Koreans as well, despite being more obese. I fail to see how this supports con's case.
e. Global Conflict
- The US has done far more good than harm with its military foreign policy, for one, being pivotal towards the victory over the Triple Alliance in World War One, as well as Nazi Germany in World War Two, etc. Such contributions create a better world than ever would have existed without them. In comparison, North Korea attacked an innocent South Korean in the Korean War in order to impose communism on them, causing millions of deaths for nothing, so not only have their conflicts made the world a worse place, the government in turn continues to violate their own people's rights to a degree greater than almost any other country (see III.).
Conclusions
- The US is, on balance, a better country than North Korea based on objective empirical data and analysis.
Con
#4
1) There is no starvation in North Korea
North Korea has a higher rate of population growth than South Korea and the USA. If there was really mass starvation in North Korea, this would not be the case.
There are lots of reports that US citizens are experiencing food shortages:
The sites that Novice provided are the common US propaganda sites that offer no proof.
2) North Korean soldiers helping civilians
3) North Korean children in school
4) USA cant possibly win
5) North Korea shows worlds largest mobile ICBM, with the range of over 13000 km
6) North Korea is Socialist. USA is capitalist.
7) North Korean Songun Juche military Socialism is superior to US military capitalism. In US capitalism, there is plenty of resources and labor power being wasted producing for the rich. In North Korea, military is priority. There are no significant resources being wasted on the rich in North Korea.
8) "The US has a GDP per capita of 63,543.58"
This is already refuted in round 1 when prices were taken into account. GDP is a sum of prices. High prices means high GDP. We have already seen in round 1: 23) that even with the average wage in the US, a person only has enough for basic needs. Those below average are usually malnutritioned and skipping meals, as Round 2: 1) shows.
Novice shows clear lack of knowledge about the economy. GDP per capita has nothing to do with actual wealth of the people, as it takes into account a mass of wealth consumed by the rich 1% of the population.
9) "The US also ranks 25th on the economic freedom index compared to North Korea, which ranks 177th. "
This has nothing to do with how people live. This is, again, related to the rich 1% who have freedom to buy and own businesses. Most people in USA dont have such ability, as they dont have money. Novice wants to base his case on the rich 1% of the people.
10) Poverty rate
To support his claim, Novice gave us a US propaganda source with no proof. I already gave actual proof about situation in North Korea and the US.
11) "In addition to this, the Human Development Index, the United States ranks 17th."
Again, posting sources that offer no proof.
We have already shown that most people in USA can only afford basic things like house and kindergarten. Some people cant even afford these basics. Some cant even afford to have food every day. See Round 2: 1).
12) "On the Global Health and Security Index, the United States ranks 1st out of 195 regions, whereas North Korea ranks 193rd/195 countries comparatively."
This would be true if there werent mass abortions, circumcisions, suicides, school shootings, rapes...ect. USA can only rank 1 when we take out everything actually related to health and security.
13) "On the Democracy Index..."
I didnt know mass lies, manipulations, wars, mass suicide and mass rape counts as democracy. Again Novice offers no proof but relies on some unrelated ranking.
14) "According to Freedom in the World 2022, the United States is classified as a free country. "
Mass rape, 1 in 30 black people in prison, school shootings, mass poverty, circumcisions, wars, lies, manipulations...ect. US is not a free country.
15) "rights watch", "North Korea is among a collection of only 16 countries that "have the worst aggregate scores for political rights and civil liberties." "
What liberties do you have in USA? 0.0000001% chance to become president? Liberty to vote for your next oppressor? Not useful for ordinary citizens.
16) "Con's case is a major collection of non-arguments (1, 2, 10, 15, 17, 19, 24, 28, 30, 32, 35) "
Novice here wants to say to us that he doesnt consider the abuses of human rights as something important.
17) "unsubstantiated claims (21, 23, 27, 33).""
Novice intentionally plays clueless. Source from Round 1: 22) is related to 21) and 23).
This source supports Round 1: 21) and 23).
About Round 1: 27), see Round 1: 31) source about houses being free in North Korea.
About 33), see Round 1) 33. Source was provided. The fact that Novice just ignored it means he has no counter argument.
18) "School/Police shootings are cumulatively rare"
By this logic, someone could kill you and justify it as "cumulatively rare".
Remember that in North Korea, there are no school shootings. Never were.
19) "human rights abuses and arbitrary killings and murder in prison camps North Koreans are subjected to regularly by their own government"
Novice again offers no proof. Just circular reasoning. I showed actual videos of life in North Korea. Novice showed nothing, no videos, just repeated propaganda.
20) "North Korea has a greater percentage of its population in prison than even the US"
Novice used anti NK site as a source. Site offers no proof. It offers one low resolution image of something that may be a prison, may be a station, may be a factory...no proof.
21) "North Korea imprisons innocent people and subjects them to torturous labor"
No proof here either. We have already shown that in US prisons, there is mass rape, beating and torture every day. It was also shown that USA has largest percentage of its population in prison. It was also shown that USA has imprisoned children.
22) "In North Korea, as shown above, the government is the main proponent of crimes against humanity, which they inflict on their own people making the region the 15th... "
Again, posting sources with no proof-backed data.
23) "As shown, a far worse issue in North Korea given that nearly half of the population is malnourished."
No proof to support this claim. See round 2: 1), see round 1: 23).
There is no proof that people are malnourished in North Korea.
But there is proof that people are malnourished in the USA:
"One in 26 (3.8 percent) of households in the U.S. experienced very low food security, a more severe form of food insecurity, where households report regularly skipping meals..."
"Children: 1 in 8 (12.5 percent) households with children could not buy enough food for their families, considerably higher than the rate for households without children (9.4 percent)."
Official US site admits:
"10.2 percent (13.5 million) of U.S. households were food insecure at some time during 2021"
24) "The United States has a higher average life expectancy than North Koreans "
According to your own source, the difference in life expectancy is only 6 years.
First, US has low birth rates. North Korea has high birth rates enough to sustain its population and increase it.
US has huge immigrations. North Korea has no immigrations.
Despite the immigrations, US population didnt grow as fast as the population of North Korea.
See round 2: 1).
From these facts, one could only conclude that North Korea has higher birth rates than the USA or North Korea has lower death rates than the USA.
Lower death rates would mean a higher life expectancy. Hence, you are less likely to die in North Korea.
Higher birth rates means there is more children and more child deaths, which lowers life expectancy but increases population. So in this case, lower life expectancy would not be a bad thing, but a consequence of high birth rates.
Since Novices source offered no birth rates or death rates, it means it has no actual data. Hence, no proof.
25) "The US has done far more good than harm with its military foreign policy"
For this, Novice uses ww1 and ww2 as an example. With an event that happened 77 years ago, he attempts to justify 77 following years of unjustifed wars, killing civilians, using chemical weapons on children, bombing children...ect. In Korean war, US was responsible for all deaths that followed after US invaded North Korea.
26) "North Korea attacked an innocent South Korean"
Defensive war. Also, death toll highly increased with US intervention.
27) Conclusion:
Novice didnt refute Round 1: 4) to 34).
Since it was proven that:
A1) North Korea gives free houses to its citizens
A2) No school shootings in North Korea(never reported a single school shooting),
A3) Much higher birth rates and faster growing population in North Korea
A4) No child porn(Never even reported a case of regular porn being produced in North Korea. US has 2500% increase in child porn arrests.)
A5) US has low life standards and ordinary citizens struggle to cover basic needs
A6) North Korea is much more superior in military per capita
A7) Hunger is present in USA
A8) Larger percentage of population in prison is in the USA.
A9) Mass rape is present in the USA in prisons and among regular citizens
A10) USA used chemical weapons on civilians
A11) Mass police shootings are present in USA
A12) Mass circumcision is present in USA
A13) Mass suicides are present in USA
A14) Mass car accidents happen in USA
A15) Mass torture happens in prisons in USA
A16) USA sponsors civil wars in other countries
A17) USA violates human rights of pedophiles by subjecting them to torture and beatings
A18) 1 in 30 black people are imprisoned in the USA
A19) USA abuses children, sends them to prison and has even subjected children to death penalty
A20) Homelessness and obesity is high in the USA
A21) North Korea is more peaceful than USA
A22) In case of war, North Korea wins.
Conclusion based on observation of facts: North Korea is, on balance, a better country than USA.
Round 3
Pro
#5
x. Affirmation
- Con has made no objection.
x.1 P2 affirmation(s)
x.1.I Overviews
- First, voters ought to ignore assertions made by con that are not equipped with arguments or sources.
- Con responds well-sourced and documented arguments by denying "proof," has been provided. To the average person who has functional eyesight, this claim is untrue. Thus con has dropped all of pro's arguments of his lack of substantiate response.
The sites that Novice provided are the common US propaganda sites that offer no proof.
- Here con makes the conspiracy theory that all credible metrics are secret underground US propaganda sites, and there is no need to take this seriously.
- Applying the previous, pro's claims that all sources that counteract his position are not real can be discarded.
I. Economics/Society
- Dropped. Extend.
II. Health/Healthcare
- Dropped. Extend.
III. Freedom
- Dropped. Extend.
Rebuttal(s)
r.I "Gish Gallop"
- Despite being the final round con has made a series of new points of which the majority are non-arguments and unsubstantiated claims like the previous. This fills the description of "no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments."
a. Shootings/violence
- Con's response is a red herring that need not be addressed. Con drops that the North Korean government's abuses are more frequent than any school shooting incident in the US.
b. Prison
- In response, pro argues that my source is an "anti-North Korea," source without evidence. Pro has not given a substantial objection to my argument, and there is nothing that suggests my source is against North Korea. Even if we were to take the absolute benefit of the doubt and go with a figure from 4 years ago rather than the updated 2021 figure I cited, the 130,000 people incarcerated in prison camps during the time period would still amount to a larger population incarceration rate (0.50%) not only turning con's argument against him but introducing drastic implications given that North Korea imprisons innocent people in their concentration camps (b. round one) for crimes such as criticizing the government.
c. Crimes
- Pro drops this argument by arguing that all credible sources that disagree with him are actually fake.
d. Nutrition
- Pro drops this argument by arguing that all credible sources that disagree with him are actually fake.
d.1 Life expectancy
- Pro concedes the US's superior life expectancy and goes on to make irrelevant points about immigration as well as fertility rates.
e. Global Conflict
- Invading an innocent country, unprovoked, to spread communism is not a defensive war. US intervention to protect innocent people from unjust conquest is a good thing especially since consequentially if North Korea won this war, all I have shown in this debate would also be imposed on them.
- Pro also concedes both WWI and WW2 as imperative foreign policy actions. In his ramble, he asserts various actions were unjust and does not argue for them, so we can extend our implications from round one. He also critiques citing old military events, despite himself citing old military events. The US has done more good than harm foreign policy-wise, and North Korea has done far more harm than good.
f. Socialism vs Capitalism
- We are not debating socialism or capitalism, we are debating whether North Korea is a better country than the US, which as we have shown, the North Korean population continues to suffer from human rights abuses, totalitarian governments, lack of nutrition, and crippling poverty.
Conclusion
- Premises one and two have been proven true, and the conclusion entails a simple voter decision.
Con
#6
1) "Con has made no objection."
Novice doesnt understand what objection is, as we will see further.
2) "First, voters ought to ignore assertions made by con that are not equipped with arguments or sources."
This is Novice failing to explain what assertions didnt have arguments or sources supporting them.
3) "Con responds well-sourced and documented arguments by denying "proof," has been provided. To the average person who has functional eyesight, this claim is untrue. Thus con has dropped all of pro's arguments of his lack of substantiate response."
Novice again uses circular reasoning and shows clear lack of knowledge about what proof is. Proof is either lots of videos and images confirming the claim, either a logical deduction by excluding all other options that counter the claim.
Novices sources dont offer any of this. They just offer assertions without proof. According to Novice, we are supposed to trust these assertions and not ask for any real proof. This is clear propaganda that Novice falls for.
4) "Here con makes the conspiracy theory that all credible metrics are secret underground US propaganda sites, and there is no need to take this seriously."
So according to Novice, we should trust these sites without asking for proof and without using our brains. US has a history of invading other countries and using these same lies Novice is using as an excuse to invade them. This is not a conspiracy. This is the history of the USA. Anyone denying this doesnt understand history and politics, and doesnt understand how propaganda works.
5) Novice is that average american citizen who blindly believes his government, ignoring all the bad things US has done and ignoring historical proof and still falling for the same lies and not learning from his mistakes.
6) "I. Economics/Society
Dropped. Extend."
Nothing was dropped here. This is simply Novice playing ignorant. See round 2: 8),9),10),11), see round 1: 23).
Novice played stupid and ignored these arguments.
7) "II. Health/Healthcare
Dropped. Extend."
Nothing was dropped here either. See round 2: 12), see round 2: 1).
Novice ignored these arguments, thinking that he will achieve something.
8) "III. Freedom
Dropped. Extend."
Novice wants to ignore arguments that were made. See round 2: 13),14),15).
9) "Despite being the final round con has made a series of new points of which the majority are non-arguments and unsubstantiated claims like the previous."
Novices entire case is based on trusting random sites without asking for proof.
10) "a. Shootings/violence
Con's response is a red herring that need not be addressed."
This is just Novice not understanding my response, so he is unable to address it. This just confirms that he is intentionally ignoring all the bad things done by the USA. This means he is nothing more but a brainwashed american joe.
11) "Con drops that the North Korean government's abuses are more frequent than any school shooting incident in the US."
This was not dropped. Every time you mentioned abuse in North Korea, I asked for proof. Every time when asked, you failed to give proof. The fact that you failed to understand this clearly shows the quality of US education, and nothing else.
12) "there is nothing that suggests my source is against North Korea."
This is the stupidity at its best. If a source tells lies against North Korea without offering proof, it is against North Korea. Is the american education really so bad that you fail to understand this?
13) "Even if we were to take the absolute benefit of the doubt and go with a figure from 4 years ago"
Again, no proof for these figures was given. I mean, you would obviously be a lousy prosecutor, given the fact that you fail to understand what basic proof is.
14) "Pro drops this argument by arguing that all credible sources that disagree with him are actually fake."
When did I argue that? I claimed sources without proof are most likely fake. But then again, this is american education at work, and Novice is the example of that.
15) "Life expectancy
Pro concedes the US's superior life expectancy and goes on to make irrelevant points about immigration as well as fertility rates."
Nothing was conceded. I guess you werent much good at math in school. Immigration and low birth rates have huge effect on life expectancy. The fact that you didnt know this was expected. Also, you ignored the argument about the lack of death rates in your source. Also, you dont seem to know what life expectancy is. With low birth rates, life expectancy increases even tho no one actually lives longer. You dont know this because american education is actually designed to turn people into idiots.
16) "Invading an innocent country, unprovoked, to spread communism is not a defensive war."
Unprovoked? Sorry, but you dont seem to know the basic history. Before the Korean war started, there were conflicts happening on the borders. South Korea was firing at the North before the Korean war started. The fact that North Korea decided they had enough of provocations and then completely crushed the South, does not make North Korea guilty in any way. Remember that USA killed 1 million Iraqis because of an assumption. So USA cannot judge anyone in any way.
17) "US intervention to protect innocent people from unjust conquest is a good thing"
Actually throughout its history, it was mostly the US that has done the conquest. But then, american education at work...
18) "especially since consequentially if North Korea won this war, all I have shown in this debate would also be imposed on them."
First, you didnt show anything in this debate other than lies. If USA didnt interfere in the Korean war, there would be 90% less casualties. But sure, tell me again how US is the good guy...
19) "Pro also concedes both WWI and WW2 as imperative foreign policy actions"
Sorry, how does US joining the winning side in 1941 justifies war in Libya in 2011?
Anyone who knows history knows that over 80% of German casualties were against Russia. Less than 5% was against USA. To claim that 5% changed the outcome of war is a typical american stupidity and should not even be taken into consideration.
Since you are an american, you dont know that USSR had the fastest growing industry before WW2. Hitler had no choice but to attack USSR as soon as possible, before its too late. You also dont know that USA attacked USSR during WW1. You also dont know that despite Hitlers surprise attack on USSR, Hitler captured only about 10% of USSRs territory. Then a massive USSRs army chased him back all the way to Berlin.
What would happen if there was no USA? Well, allies would still win the WW2. But there wouldnt be 77 years of US aggressions and wars. So on balance, US did more harm than good.
20) "In his ramble, he asserts various actions were unjust and does not argue for them"
Novice thinks that using chemical weapons on civilians is not unjust. One could be amazed by Novices mentality, but it is actually normal in USA.
21) "He also critiques citing old military events, despite himself citing old military events."
Where did I do this? My critique was not about citation, it was about weight. US joining the winning side in WW2 does not make USA good, because after WW2 USA has done many crimes and those crimes simply outweight any good things USA did during WW2.
22) "We are not debating socialism or capitalism, we are debating whether North Korea is a better country than the US"
Socialism in general is positive, while capitalism in general is bad. Military Songun Socialism is the reason North Korea has more military per capita than USA has. So North Korea is more effective in using resources, hence better.
23) "North Korean population continues to suffer from human rights abuses"
Repeating claim without proof. I have shown its the USA who has human rights abuses.
24) "totalitarian governments, lack of nutrition, and crippling poverty."
Novice is repeating claims, offering no proof and also ignoring proof.
25) Conclusion
Since all the proof was on my side and since Novice offered no proof in his sources and since Novice ignored the majority of arguments that were made, there is no conclusion other than that he failed to defend his position and failed to attack mine. Maybe if Novice stops using fake sources, he will be able to pretend that USA is a good country. Personally, I believe its impossible for anyone with a brain to even think that USA is a good country. But then again, most americans arent educated. Its just funny that they expect others to look up to them. Their failed country is a proof that capitalism doesnt work, will never work, and is a terrible system to begin with.
Valuable sources to gain proper knowledge about North Korea:
1) North Koreans saying their country is the best in the world because it gives them free houses and cares for them:
2) Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un are idols of the people
3) Building Socialism is the only way to achieve happiness of the people
4) In the whirlwind that sweeps across the world, Korea is advancing vigorusly displaying the might of single hearted unity under a banner of Socialism
5) Mao helped North Korea when it was attacked by the US in 1950s
6) Kim Jong Un speech about denuclearization being unacceptable as long as US and other countries have nuclear weapons and threaten to invade North Korea
7) North Korea authorizes the preemptive nuclear strike in case it feels threatened
8) Popular North Korean songs much superior than US songs:
9) North Korea explains how they beat covid in just 90 days
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
In a debate like this, what makes the difference is understanding what "better" is and how to weigh the issues to determine what could make either country better. Con is the only one that lays out some metric for determining what makes either of these countries better, reducing it down to issues that affect what an average human being in either of these countries would experience. I take that straight up, meaning that we're talking about how a human being would experience living in both of these countries now. That means issues of what these countries have done before and whether they've harmed other countries or put the world in a better place are irrelevant.
To that end, Pro gives me a good deal of statistical data showing that the US is better for the average American than North Korea is for the average North Korean. Con's response to all of these sources is that they are "US propaganda sites that offer no proof," though in taking this method to respond to all of these sources, he doesn't end up responding to any of them. He never proves that these are US propaganda sites, never provides alternate sites with alternate high level statistics (instead focusing on much narrower issues that either only look at some small piece of these larger statistics or are tangential to them), and never addresses the contents of these sources individually. Instead, what we get from Con is a laundry list of responses that, in many cases, are irrelevant under Pro's metrics for the debate. In other cases, they range from small snapshots of much larger issues (e.g. evidence that, in some cases, North Korean soldiers help civilians) to claims that never get direct support (no starvation in North Korea). Con is also pretty scattershot with his sources, providing support in some instances and not in others.
More importantly, though, I'm just not sure what to do with these huge lists of points. How do I compare it to the points Pro made? Con just straight up tells me he's lying without ever entertaining the possibility that his statistics could reflect actual issues that he might need to use his arguments to counter. What I see here is a bunch of small points that might come together into bigger benefits, but never coalesce. If free housing is so widely available, for example, how do I compare that with the lack of economic security that Pro cites? How do I assess the purported absence of school shootings vs. Pro's human rights abuses and murder in prison camps? How much do higher birth rates and a faster growing population matter to the average person? How much does having a large ICBM matter to them? These points clearly matter, but on their face they don't rise up to the scale of Pro's statistics, and it was up to Con to justify the comparison. In the absence of that, I vote Pro.
Conduct to Con for the forfeit.
RESOLVED: RationalMadman and Novice_II should debate this topic next against each other
I was too busy to post a round one, take the opportunity to go first.
Better for WHOM?
If you live in Russia, China, the Middle East, Latin America, Brazil, Libya, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Serbia or literally anywhere outside "the west", then America is either your cruel overlord or your nation's mortal enemy. North Korea is not even capable of harming these countries. North Koreans aren't able to topple governments and bomb hospitals or use sanctions to starve third-world countries to death.
Okay, it is 3 days now.
Fine. Make it 3 days, and I will accept.
One week? That seems unnecessary, can you do 3 days?
Time for argument is one day? Make it at least one week and I will accept
Perhaps you would be interested in accepting this challenge?