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Topic
#3778
You shall continue not in sin. Teaching that growing in grace is permissible is false teaching.
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The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
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After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
Mall
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1588
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Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
I'll expound on this topic here.
Many hold the view and teach that once a person is saved, baptized in the name of Christ, baptized into that body , they can or will grow in grace .
Meaning still go on sinning, committing the same transgressions perhaps in less frequent occurrences.
That there will be some differences in reactions to breaking the laws. That there'll be mixed to changed feelings about violating the commandments.
Those that call themselves Christians that have designed all these denominations don't believe they can be holy hence all the denominations and organizations.
I won't say "without sin" for interpretation conflict but no longer sinning, being perfect is not a possibility in this lifetime to and for those that subscribe.
Round 1
Pro
#1
The question is, when someone is saved , born again, will they still sin once born again?
As I heard a preacher say "let the Bible talk!".
1 John 3
"9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Scripture saying whosever that is cannot. Like it's impossible.
Now my main focus will be in Romans 6
We'll start at the first verse.
" What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"
"2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
God forbids the continuance in sin.
"3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
"4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Pretty straightforward. I'm merely echoing the text. A new sinless life after being raised up versus before dying to sin. The sin filled life is no more.
It goes on in depth about a new life and the old one dead . Jumping down to verse 15
"15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
This kills the resting easy, finding comfort in the teaching of growing in grace.
This scripture is dealing with no middle ground.
"17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."
I want to draw attention to the "ye were" part. You were the servants of sin.
"18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Free of sin, no longer connected, tied , bonded, enslaved to , no longer anything to do with it.
"19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."
That's unto holiness (no sin period).
I think this verse puts a nice bow on everything.
"22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
The end result of a holy life is eternal life.
No excuses with the Holy Spirit abiding on the inside.
Hebrews 12
"14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"
Be ye Holy for I am Holy, that's the book.
Con
#2
I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate and I look forward to a productive discussion.
I'm going to take a different approach than my opponent. Rather than constructing my argument on the basis of cherrypicked, out of context verses, I would like to explore some more comprehensive theological argument. I will of course reference scripture, but in support of my argument.
Before I begin I would like to point out that the idea of growing in grace is not the same as permission to sin. All sin separates man from God. But Jesus saves us by grace, not observance of the law which is a great thing for us because it is not possible for a mortal human to follow the law. Having received the free gift of salvation from Christ all that is left for humans to do is to spend our lives working to improve ourselves. This is what it means to grow in grace.
The law is unfollowable. Growing in grace is all that there is.
As Saint Paul tells us in the book of Romans, "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one... Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." As we can see from this verse the Bible clearly states that there is no possibility for a human to live a life in complete fulfillment of the law. Which seems to be a truism from the Christian perspective. After all, if being a follower of God renders sin to be an impossibility as my opponent claims here:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."Scripture saying whosever that is cannot. Like it's impossible.
Then what do I need Christ for? I will have already lived a perfect life and will achieve salvation of the basis of works. Which is of course false teaching.
I would actually like to use this verse provided by my opponent in order to highlight the flaws in his eisegesis. This is a clear example of my opponent cherrypicking verses and pulling them from context. Earlier in the very same book, only a few lines before the verse that my opponent offers, John writes this: "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 1:8-2:1.
So what does the verse provided by my opponent actually mean? Well, the answer lies in the original Greek text of the New Testament. Delving just slightly below the surface reveals the truth of the matter: that what this verse is speaking of is not individual instances of sin, but rather habitual, unrepentant sin. The Bible makes it clear that when someone is saved by Christ, they are washed clean of their sin, but sinful desires will always be present. Referring again to Saint Paul in Romans 7:19 "For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing." In this verse, Paul expresses the struggle he experienced, and that all of us who live in Christ experience. That we have a desire to follow God's word, but our sin nature often seems to get the better of us and we do the evil things that we don't want to do at the expense of the good that we wish to practice.
To conclude my first argument, I would like to reiterate the fact that the whole point of the religion is that Christ lived the perfect life that we never can. It is our goal as followers of Christ to grow into his likeness. as is stated in 2 Peter 3:18 "Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ." Contrary to my opponents heretical claims, it is not possible for anyone, even believers, to live lives devoid of sin. In order to make any claim to the contrary, you must declare Christ a liar and in so doing condemn yourself through your own self-deceit.
Round 2
Pro
#3
"I'm going to take a different approach than my opponent. Rather than constructing my argument on the basis of cherrypicked, out of context verses,"
I believe scriptures are in their contexts and adding theology to them add to the scriptures which is in violation of Proverbs 30.
"I would like to explore some more comprehensive theological argument."
Now if your theology won't contradict scripture, I'm going to solely go over the scripture you bring and see how you harmonize it with mine.
Less there be contradiction.
"This is what it means to grow in grace."
Understand what I'm saying. When I say "growing in grace" . I'm referring to those who still sin going on in Jesus name.
Those are the same ones that say they're growing in grace.
I get it, you have your own understanding but let us understand each other avoiding the misrepresentation.
"Then what do I need Christ for? I will have already lived a perfect life and will achieve salvation of the basis of works. Which is of course false teaching. "
Let me help you understand.
Whoever is born of God cannot sin. That's the book. How would you have already lived a perfect life(no sin) without being born of God?
You have to be born again to be perfect, to be Holy and without sin. As the scripture just laid out in 1 John 3.
It just stated whosever is born....... cannot, cannot sin.
Don't go passed the book, stay in the book.
"I would actually like to use this verse provided by my opponent in order to highlight the flaws in his eisegesis. This is a clear example of my opponent cherrypicking verses and pulling them from context. "
I'm reading the scripture for exactly what it says.
"Earlier in the very same book, only a few lines before the verse that my opponent offers, John writes this: "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 1:8-2:1."
Amen and Amen. There's no contradiction. Saying you don't sin doesn't mean you never have before.
The scripture says "and such WERE some of you". What do you think a new creature is?
This is what the book of Romans is getting into.
"they are washed clean of their sin, but sinful desires will always be present. "
But will they sin once born of the Spirit, born of God?
The scripture says who is born of God CANNOT sin.
Cannot enter the kingdom unless born of the water and of the SPIRIT.
Now you brought up Romans 7 so let us follow that up with the next chapter because it's going to become full circle.
There comes a time where you have to repent. To continue a sin over and over is not repenting.
Continuing in the book of Romans, starting at verse one.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Those in Christ will walk after the Spirit. As we read in chapter 8, having the Spirit enables them to do so.
Verse two
"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Ok so not bonded or a slave to sin as you are free from it. Speaks back to Romans 6 being free of sin enables to be free to serve God, serve holiness being a vessel of therefore .
Being dead to sin, how can I sin still paraphrasing from Romans chapter 6?
The Spirit you're walking after is Holy meaning no sin. So why would a Holy Spirit filled person not be Holy?
There'd be no sin. Which makes it biblical, in context by the way , that there is no committing of sin being born of God, born of the Spirit.
What is so hard to follow about all of this?
It surely and verily and verily I say gets repetitive in scripture.
So let's look at the scripture you gave, seventh chapter of the book of Romans.
You want to talk about being in context and then you isolate the chapter from the surrounding chapters.
The chapter before makes a point about being dead to sin, next makes the point about where sin comes from which is the law of sin. The chapter after follows concluding to be freed from the law of sin .
So there's no encouragement that we have this law to be bound so we're stuck with sinning .
There's a present condition with all of us. That condition transitions from the old to the new creature as we read about in Ephesians.
"To conclude my first argument, I would like to reiterate the fact that the whole point of the religion is that Christ lived the perfect life that we never can. "
Absolutely not biblical. You go in the scripture but you don't go far enough.
You went to 2 Peter 3 but go back a book. See , you're projecting something on me from which you're doing which is cherry picking.
"14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:"
Former lusts, that would be no more. Not lusting every now and then .
"15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. "
Matthew 5
"48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
So you're saying we can't be something that the scripture is directing us to be.
Again, it ties back to Romans 6 which I'll point out from that was initially done in round one.
"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ."
Chapter 4 of Ephesians here nor 2 Peter 3 states to continue on in sin. Why?
It'd contradict Romans 6.
Let me replay Romans 6 again.
"Contrary to my opponents heretical claims, it is not possible for anyone, even believers, to live lives devoid of sin. In order to make any claim to the contrary, you must declare Christ a liar and in so doing condemn yourself through your own self-deceit."
Yes let me instant replay that. My people are destroyed from a lack of knowledge.
Become aware of this if it was just glossed over in round one.
"19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."
That's unto holiness (no sin period).
"22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
The end result of a holy life is eternal life.
Let me ask you, how can you be Holy and still sin every now and then?
Is that holiness?
You have to be in holiness to see the Lord.
If I'm Holy as my Father is Holy and I still sin, my Father Almighty righteous God sins.
I'm only following an example. That would be true according to this falsehood you perhaps believe in.
You better come back to your scripture.
Just follow me. I know the rules of the street here.
If Con's sole post was in a later Round there are exceptions but this Round 1 vs the forfeit counts as FF
I'll ask and re-evaluate this debate.
Deleted my vote since I am unsure about how to vote with a partial but majority forfeit.
"Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes."
I just noticed that this was copied from DDO.