Instigator / Pro
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1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4060
Prime Napoleon Bonaparte is more masculine than Kim Jong Un
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
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Better sources
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After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 2
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
0
1309
rating
269
debates
40.71%
won
Description
Prime Napoleon is during the years 1804–1814 AD. That version of Napoleon is more macho than the current gutless dictator, Kim Jong Un.
Definitions:
Masculine- Strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness.
Napoleon takes the win in ALL five of these traits.
Rules:
1. BOP is on Pro.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Preamble:
I’m going to illustrate how between the two most famous manlets from the more previous and modern century, Napoleon was the Alpha and Kim Jong Un is a Beta.
l. Napoleon was in better shape
Mere speculation at Kim Jong Un’s health brings some disturbing concerns. Particularly, his dependency on dairy.
“Kim likes Emmental cheese, the taste for which he likely picked up during his school days in Switzerland. In fact, he likes it so much that he had to step out of the public eye in 2014 for health reasons, which, according to the South Korean newspaper Yonhap (via Eater) was an affliction of gout, thought to be brought on by his high-calorie diet, lack of exercise, and obsession with cheese.”
While Napoleon was described as frail-looking before 1804, he quickly started putting on weight after this year. In-fact, some described him as portly and pot-bellied. However, despite being obese, he was described as being fairly graceful.:
"The man I saw was of short stature, just over five feet tall, rather heavy although he was only 37 years old and despite the fact that the lifestyle he followed should not, on the face of it, have let him put on much weight. He held himself erect without the least effort, as is common with all short people. But what was peculiar to him alone was a nobility of bearing and an urbane, martial air, which undoubtedly was derived from the habit of commanding men and a consciousness of moral superiority. No less remarkable were the ease and frankness of his approach, his natural dexterity and the quickness of his movements."
Napoleon is Kim Jong Un’s age at this time. However, nobody has ever described Kim Jong Un with such high praise. Keep in mind that during his reign, Napoleon is still an active fighter in leading military campaigns while Kim Jong Un has a very sedentary lifestyle.
ll. Napoleon is braver
Despite having lost a few fights, Napoleon remained undeterred. In 1812, he would once again go on the offensive by trying to invade Russia in Winter. Which is arguably a suicide mission. This audacity alone gives Napoleon the mark for bravery.
What has Kim Jong Un done that was brave?
lll. Napoleon is more independent
“After seizing political power in France in a 1799 coup d'état, he crowned himself emperor in 1804.”
Napoleon is such a boss that he doesn’t require parlor tricks to take power, he can do it through sheer strategy and cunning. Meanwhile, Kim Jong Un has to rig the election in his favor so he doesn’t lose to a more qualified candidate.
lV. Napoleon is a more of a leader
“Born on the island of Corsica, Napoleon rapidly rose through the ranks of the military during the French Revolution (1789-1799).”
Such a feat alone requires competent leadership ability.
“Kim Jong-un had little political or military experience”
Say no more.
V. Napoleon is more assertive
The famous disorder named after the French Emperor is described as.:
“It is characterized by overly-aggressive or domineering social behavior, such as lying about earnings, and carries the implication that such behavior is compensatory for the subject's physical or social shortcomings.”
The joke is that Napoleon channeled more aggression to compensate. This propaganda was used by his enemies, but Napoleon’s own people took kindly to him.
The jokes about Kim Jong Un are from his own people.
“The sombre, subdued and rounded figure that was often the subject of international ridicule in those early days has now made North Korea a global threat in a way his father Kim Jong-il never did.”
Sources: https://www.mashed.com/kimjongun
Con
#2
Strength
In terms of military strength, there is no comparison to be made. Napoleon could win. Wrong.
Not only does North Korea have 7 million troops during peace time, but the weapons that Kim Jong Un has far exceed that of Prime Napoleon.
The destruction that Kim can unleash on his enemies is far greater than that which Napoleon was able to unleash on his enemies at his best.
Courage
Being suicidal is courage. Anyone can attack and lose. So everyone is brave. Wrong.
Courage means not being afraid to succeed. Kim Jong Un was not afraid to succeed. He fought the USA and put the entire world on knees.
Kim Jong Un comes from family of great warriors.
His uncle Kim il Sung fought against the entire UN alliance, causing massive casualties to USA.
USA lost over 1000 aircrafts in the Korean war.
Kim Jong il regularly sent death threats to US presidents, boasting Korean military power and claiming he will keep developing more nuclear weapons to wipe out USA.
US president Bush called North Korea an axis of evil.
Kim Jong il said:
"Bush, you called us evil. What are you waiting for now, Bush? Attack us quickly so that we can kill you.".
Kim Jong Un humiliated the USA further. Despite sanctions, he developed largest in the world ICBMs placing entire US in the range of nuclear strike. He even passed a law that gives him right to pre-emptive strike on US mainland, in case he thinks its necessary.
Kim Jong Un's country by population is outnumbered by over 100 to 1 compared to that of US and allies. Even when being faced with such odds, it doesnt stop him from striking fear into entire NATO, US, south Korea and Japan and all allies.
Independence
Obviously, this one can only be in Kim's favor or a tie. Kim Jong Un has full independence to govern a country as he sees fit.
Leadership
Kim's family ruled Korea for over 75 years. Kim Jong Un's father taught him everything he knew. In this way, experience was inherited. Kim Jong Un proved that he can turn his country into a nuclear fortress ready to crush the enemies with single command.
Assertiveness
Prime Napoleon was assertive. Wrong. He was suicidal and got outplayed by something as simple as winter.
If Kim Jong Un declared war on USA now, in just 20 minutes the USA would stop existing as a country. This is thanks to Kim Jong Un's incredible ability in weapons. Kim Jong Un doesnt need to destroy USA for us to know that he has ability to do so.
Kim Jong Un even managed to turn US president Trump on his side. This proves he is an expert politician as well as expert military commander.
Conclusion
There is no comparison between the two. Kim Jong Un makes the entire world live in fear. The world has no way to defeat Kim Jong Un without mutual destruction. Such strength Napoleon could only dream about.
Round 2
Pro
#3
"StrengthIn terms of military strength, there is no comparison to be made. Napoleon could win. Wrong.Not only does North Korea have 7 million troops during peace time, but the weapons that Kim Jong Un has far exceed that of Prime Napoleon.The destruction that Kim can unleash on his enemies is far greater than that which Napoleon was able to unleash on his enemies at his best."
That only means military weaponry and technology has advanced. If we were to compare firepower, then yes, Napoleon is at a disadvantage due to being born two centuries too early.
But if we compare them individually, Napoleon wins the point because he is stronger than Kim Jong Un. As I said originally, Kim Jong Un is lazy and fat. Napoleon is fat, but he's an active military commander. Let's compare their diets. Here is Napoleon.:
"He preferred a good soup (he liked it very hot) and a good piece of boiled beef to all the complicated and succulent dishes which his cooks could make for him. Boiled or poached eggs, an omelette, a small leg of mutton, a cutlet, a filet of beef, broiled breast of lamb, or a chicken wing, lentils, beans in a salad were the dishes which they habitually served at his breakfasts. There were never more than two dishes on the table for this meal – one of vegetables, preceded by a soup.
The dinner was more elaborate, the table more abundantly served, but he never ate any but the most simply cooked things, whether meat or vegetables. A piece of Parmesan or Roquefort cheese closed his meals. If there happened to be any fruit it was served to him, but if he ate any of it, it was but very little. For instance, he would only take a quarter of a pear or an apple, or a very small bunch of grapes. What he especially liked were fresh almonds. He was so fond of them that he would eat almost the whole plate. He also liked rolled waffles in which a little cream had been put. Two or three lozenges were all the candy that he ate. After his meals, whether breakfast or dinner, they gave him a little coffee, of which he often left a good part. Never any liqueurs. (1)"
The dinner was more elaborate, the table more abundantly served, but he never ate any but the most simply cooked things, whether meat or vegetables. A piece of Parmesan or Roquefort cheese closed his meals. If there happened to be any fruit it was served to him, but if he ate any of it, it was but very little. For instance, he would only take a quarter of a pear or an apple, or a very small bunch of grapes. What he especially liked were fresh almonds. He was so fond of them that he would eat almost the whole plate. He also liked rolled waffles in which a little cream had been put. Two or three lozenges were all the candy that he ate. After his meals, whether breakfast or dinner, they gave him a little coffee, of which he often left a good part. Never any liqueurs. (1)"
We have a sufficient serving of fruits, veggies, and protein. Now let's look at Kim Jung Un's diet.:
"Emmental cheese. Emmental ; Sushi. Sushi rolls ; Shark fin soup and Kobe steak. Shark fin soup ; Brazilian coffee."
"North Korea’s ruler Kim Jong-un has reportedly been known to gorge on champagne and cheese which may have caused heart failure, possibly killing him or leaving him in a vegetative state, if reports are true"
"Being suicidal is courage. Anyone can attack and lose. So everyone is brave. Wrong.Courage means not being afraid to succeed. Kim Jong Un was not afraid to succeed. He fought the USA and put the entire world on knees."
Courage- The ability to do something that frightens one.
I think the term applies to Napoleon even more.
"Kim Jong Un comes from family of great warriors.His uncle Kim il Sung fought against the entire UN alliance, causing massive casualties to USA.USA lost over 1000 aircrafts in the Korean war.Kim Jong il regularly sent death threats to US presidents, boasting Korean military power and claiming he will keep developing more nuclear weapons to wipe out USA.US president Bush called North Korea an axis of evil.Kim Jong il said:"Bush, you called us evil. What are you waiting for now, Bush? Attack us quickly so that we can kill you."."
Kim Jong Un did come from a family of great warriors, you are correct about that. Which is why it is a shame he did not inherit their courage.
"Kim Jong Un humiliated the USA further. Despite sanctions, he developed largest in the world ICBMs placing entire US in the range of nuclear strike. He even passed a law that gives him right to pre-emptive strike on US mainland, in case he thinks its necessary.Kim Jong Un's country by population is outnumbered by over 100 to 1 compared to that of US and allies. Even when being faced with such odds, it doesnt stop him from striking fear into entire NATO, US, south Korea and Japan and all allies."
Ruling through fear does not prove a man is brave, just means he has a lot to compensate for. There was no way Napoleon could have defeated Russia but he gathered his troops and went there anyway, only to end up captured and imprisoned by their authorities. Such is the true hallmark of courage.
"Obviously, this one can only be in Kim's favor or a tie. Kim Jong Un has full independence to govern a country as he sees fit."
He didn't earn the rights to his political power. It was passed onto him from his predecessors whereas Napoleon had to work his way to the top of the hierarchy. If Kim Jong Un had to start from the bottom, he would not be successful like Napoleon.
"Kim's family ruled Korea for over 75 years. Kim Jong Un's father taught him everything he knew. In this way, experience was inherited. Kim Jong Un proved that he can turn his country into a nuclear fortress ready to crush the enemies with single command."
Skill can only be learned through experience, which Kim Jong Un lacked before becoming a dictator. Napoleon already had leadership ability before announcing himself Emperor, and it was his leadership ability that gave him the position of Emperor to start with.
"Prime Napoleon was assertive. Wrong. He was suicidal and got outplayed by something as simple as winter."
Yes, but he would eventually escape and return to France to wage war against the new King Louis. Even if he was unsuccessful, the ability to bounce back from rock bottom demonstrates resilience. The fact that he retained enough of his followers in despite of these errors demonstrates strength.
Conclusion:
I have proven using simple logic and sources that Prime Napoleon was greater and more macho than Kim Jong Un could ever aspire to be.
Vote PRO
Sources: https://www.mirror.co.uk
Con
#4
That only means military weaponry and technology has advanced. If we were to compare firepower, then yes, Napoleon is at a disadvantage due to being born two centuries too early.
So you admit that Napoleon had less military strength and lower strength in numbers.
Courage- The ability to do something that frightens one.
To do means to fail. Wrong. It means to succeed like Kim Jong Un did.
Kim Jong Un did come from a family of great warriors, you are correct about that. Which is why it is a shame he did not inherit their courage.
He most certainly doesnt have courage when he challenges enemies that outnumber him 100 to 1. Wrong.
Ruling through fear does not prove a man is brave, just means he has a lot to compensate for.
Yeah, it takes no courage to rule when enemies outnumber you 100 to 1. Wrong.
There was no way Napoleon could have defeated Russia but he gathered his troops and went there anyway, only to end up captured and imprisoned by their authorities. Such is the true hallmark of courage.
Yeah, he was brave so he got defeated by winter. Wrong. He was stupid.
He didn't earn the rights to his political power. It was passed onto him from his predecessors whereas Napoleon had to work his way to the top of the hierarchy. If Kim Jong Un had to start from the bottom, he would not be successful like Napoleon.
This is your assumption. Good luck proving it.
First, Napoleon was very succesful. Wrong. Your words about Napoleon: "Only to end up captured and imprisoned."
That is so not the definition of success, but whatever.
Second, Kim il Sung fought in WW2 and earned his title. Since Kim Jong Un carries his blood, it is not unreasonable to assume he has same abilities.
Third, Kim Jong Un succeeded and Napoleon failed. Kim Jong Un can start WW3 and kill everyone, but that is a stupid thing to do. Kim Jong Un doesnt need to kill himself like stupid Napoleon to prove something.
Skill can only be learned through experience, which Kim Jong Un lacked before becoming a dictator.
Completely incorrect. Experience can be passed from one generation to another.
Napoleon already had leadership ability before announcing himself Emperor, and it was his leadership ability that gave him the position of Emperor to start with.
Napoleon learned from observing people, just like Kim Jong Un learned a lot by observing his father.
Even if he was unsuccessful, the ability to bounce back from rock bottom demonstrates resilience.
Bouncing back to fail again is much better than never failing. Wrong. Napoleon failed every time. Kim Jong Un never failed. That should conclude the topic of who was a better leader.
The fact that he retained enough of his followers in despite of these errors demonstrates strength.
Yeah, failing demonstrates strength. Wrong again.
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This debate was made to be intentionally absurd. The word and definition in the description are traditional interpretations of values that characterize masculinity.
You aren't the instigator. Maybe the comment would have worked better if I tagger Sir.lancelot.
That said, being comfortable with any topic you accept is a valuable asset mentally when you are debating.
"may even be interpreted as sexist"
I am fine with being sexist.
Masculine? No, the word you are looking for is probably Charismatic. Maybe RM has an even better word, but right now, defining "masculine" like that may even be interpreted as sexist.
I dont know much about Napoleon, but whatever.