Instigator / Pro
21
1500
rating
25
debates
42.0%
won
Topic
#4082
Jesus is not God
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 3 votes and with 20 points ahead, the winner is...
rayhan16
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1
1500
rating
1
debates
0.0%
won
Description
It is evident that Jesus is not God nor is the trinity a concept which is advocated by his teachings.
Round 1
Christianity Belief
Christians believe in the trinitarian concept where the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all God with it being 3 in 1. I am here to show that this cannot work.
My belief
I am a Muslim and I believe Jesus was the messiah, a mighty prophet of Allah and a messenger of God. However to say that he is in fact God is a blasphemous statement. It is purely illogical from all fronts.
Jesus in the Bible
John 17:6- And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
This is the most obvious verse in the Bible that tells you that Jesus is not God, lets break it down.
'The only true God' is talking about the father as mentioned in a couple verses before. By saying 'only', you are ruling out any other entity than the father. Christians do not believe that the father is Jesus and as mentioned Jesus is referred to as 'AND' so he is not included in the discussion of the only true God. This is clearly an explicit verse in the Bible that states Jesus cannot be God because the only God is the father.
Matthew 26:39- He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
Again a very explicit verse containing the actual belief about Jesus in the very Bible. So first of all, Jesus fell on his face and prayed. Who else does this? Muslims but that is besides the point. Does God have a God? If Jesus was God, he would not need to pray to anyone because he is God. And no, Jesus never prayed out of thanks and just because it is what it is. He prayed because he was scared of the crucifixion and and asked God for a favour for God to take the cup away from him. Why couldn't Jesus do this himself if he was God? Jesus said 'not as I will, but as You will'. Don't they both have the same will if they are both God? Why can't Jesus carry out his will to save himself? The reason is obvious, Jesus is not God.
There are many other supporting quotes, in fact 90+ of them, reference is here.
Jesus as a human
Jesus was a human. It is very contradictory to say he was God because he was limited. Jesus had to eat, drink, sleep, be born to be alive. God does not have to do these things because God is not a man (23:19). Some Christians say that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. If Jesus was 100% God he was unlimited. If Jesus was 100% man, he was limited. You cannot be unlimited and limited at the same time because that is like questioning whether God can cease to exist or lift a rock that is too heavy for him to lift. These are contradictory statements.
Jesus 'dying' on the Cross
If Jesus died on the cross, then God died. And God cannot die. So it is false, Jesus never died on the cross, his body died. Christians have to believe this in order for them not to become heretics. If Jesus died, and Jesus was God, then God died, simple as that. Now if Jesus' body died, and his soul or whatever was God then who died for your sins? God cannot die and Jesus was apparently given a human body and that body died. If the soul never died, but the body did and Jesus was not the body, then the body died for your sins? If that is the case, Jesus never died for your sins.
Conclusion
It is clear that Jesus cannot be God because God cannot die, God cannot have a God, God cannot pray to another God, God cannot be born out of a virgin, God cannot even say that there is a true God that is not him. And before you say can God do everything, yes that is true. But if God does something that doesn't make him God anymore, that thing cannot exist. So the heavy rock example, the cease to exist example and taking to earthly terms, the square circle example. These are things that are impossible.
Forfeited
Round 2
Wow, I wasted all that time for nothing. I waited as well a long time hoping that Con would bring an argument but is another one of those time wasters. Shame on him, looking like a full forfeit.
Vote PRO.
Forfeited
Round 3
Vote Pro
Forfeited
Don't get what I did wrong lmao to get blocked
and you still didnt ask what i meant. you are just assuming what you think i meant at this point.
wisdom doesnt begin or die with you. but any hope of a conversation just did.
Maybe you misinterpreted my answer.
The term 'Christian' means follower of Christ.
I know that Jesus lived a very good life, I know that true Christians are those who follow his true teachings.
I know that Jesus spread the message of one God and I know that the Quran is the most accurate account of Jesus, even if the book came hundreds of years later.
you didnt understand the nuiance of my question. you admitted it made no sense. but you didnt ask what i meant. i fear that you dont seek wisdom or understanding. as many debaters here do not.
consider this. you know of muhammud and his lifestyle and teachings. But what do you know of Jesus? Do you know what "christian" means? i do not impose a muslim is not a muslim because of a disagreement over leadership
Your example makes no sense. We both believe that Muhammed (PBUH) was a prophet and the last prophet. We don't agree on the caliphs after him. But that is beside the point.
The Christians who do believe in the trinity, believe that salvation is only through him. Ask any trinitarian, if you don't believe in Jesus being God, will you go to hell? They will say yes. Only a small minority don't believe that Jesus is God.
As most Christians believe in the trinity and all arguments go towards proving that, they do practise this belief. They pray to Jesus instead of the Father in most cases. Like saying Jesus Christ or Jesus on its own. They say Jesus help me or Jesus save me. Only in the Lords prayer do they refer to the Father.
They believe that Jesus was divine, that he was the son of God, son of Man and God all in one.
This is a belief most Christians practise.
surely as a muslim you can appreciate that just because a majority believe something, doesnt mean they practice it.
a sunni and a shia follows muhammud. they are both called muslims, but they are not the same.
if you desire a label, then say, unitarian and trinitarian believers. it will suffice in understanding.
True Christians do not agree with the trinity, however those are the exceptions and exceptions do not make a rule. The vast majority of Christians believe in it and that is why the mainstream view in Christianity is to believe in the trinity.
christians dont believe in trinity. many who call themselves (and dont do the works of Jesus Christ) believe in a trinty.
very important distinction.
Being a Muslim myself, has nothing to do with it. I am saying Jesus is not God. The principle is from the Christian belief who are the only believers who believe that Jesus is God. Therefore, I use the Bible, the nature of Jesus according to the Bible etc to self assess if Jesus is God or not.
My bad for the mistake. Its supposed to be: "Is this supposed to be a debate between a Muslim and anyones beliefs?"
I am a bit confused with this topic.
Is this supposed to be a debate between a Muslim anyones beliefs? Your using Christianity as your beginning statement but then using Muslim (as your own belief). Thats indicating the opponent could use any of their beliefs. Being that both have their own scriptures how do you really win this debate? I can somewhat think of ideas but ill let you answer this.
No I never missed a word.
Muslims believe Jesus is the messiah, correct. He is referred as a messiah in a few verses as well.
did you miss a word or did I understand you correctly that Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah?
This is a debate between a Muslim and an opponent. I think if someone tries to argue that Jesus is God, we will both believe that God exists therefore no need to state the presumption of God existing. Hope this helps!
You should add something into the description along the lines of "presuming God and Jesus each exist/existed."