1973 Nicolino Locche would beat 2007 Floyd Mayweather in a boxing match
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Nicolino Locche lacked punching power. He was 5’6 and a chain-smoker, as well as barrel-chested. In 1973, he was 34 years old and nearing the end of his career.
Floyd is 5’8. In 2007, Floyd Mayweather was 30 years old and his defensive style was very new. This was the year he beat Oscar De La Hoya. Current Floyd Mayweather has a 50-0 ratio, he has never lost a fight!
This match assumes they’re both competing in the 140-145 range.
1. BOP is on Pro. Since it’s impossible to prove something completely, Pro only needs to successfully convince voters the accuracy of the resolution.
Con will be arguing that Floyd would win, but all Con needs to do to win is refute Pro’s case rather than establish the certainty of his own.
2. Pro must provide at least three sources to meet the BOP. Con doesn’t need any.
3. Hypothetical boxing match will be 12 rounds with each round being three minutes. Both fighters will be assumed to weigh inbetween 140-145 lbs.
4. Alterations and adjustments can be made before the debate but once you accept, you agree to the terms.
5. Voters are not required to know anything about boxing in order to vote. I assure you, I will cover everything in detail.
As you can see, I am already at a disadvantage so this will make things interesting.
- Jab - A sudden punch.
- Cross - A straight punch.
- Hook - A short side power punch.
- Uppercut - A short swinging upward power punch.
- Slip - The slip is an effective defensive head movement intended to get you out of the path of an oncoming straight punch from your opponent.
- The Roll - The roll is another effective defensive movement used to avoid your opponent's hooks by bending your knees and shifting the weight from the lead side to the backside, and vice versa (rolling in vs. rolling out).
- Block - Stopping or deflecting an opponent's attack by placing one or both arms in the line of the attack.
- Swarmer/Pressure Fighter - This fighting style is intended to put a lot of physical and mental “pressure” on your opponent through a series of offensive movements. It would appear that a pressure fighter is recklessly coming forward to his opponent, throwing non-stop punches.
- Counter-Puncher - If your opponent is a pressure fighter, this fighting style is one of the best approaches to overcome him. Counterpunching works well when your opponent is in attack or offensive mode. This style involves turning your opponent’s offense into your offense.
- Pure Boxer - Pure boxers are those who maintain their distance from their opponent, always in a defensive mode and waiting for the perfect moment to hit. Many people think it’s a boring style but it’s a very helpful technique that allows boxers to strategize. Pure boxers often wait for their opponent to make the first move before stepping out to strike. However, they make sure that when they do, they release clean and powerful punches.
- Slugger - Sometimes, it takes just one or maybe a few big, powerful punches to knock your opponent down. This is the mantra of boxing sluggers. Fighters who choose this style focus their training entirely on enhancing their punching power.
- Boxer-Puncher - This style of fighting is the most dynamic. It combines the skills of a pure boxer and the powerful blows of a slugger. Ideally, all boxers would choose to be hybrid boxers. But this fighting style is very difficult to master.
- Floyd is constantly moving around and appears lively, adjusting and matching his opponent’s energy.
- Floyd maintains distance and will use a series of light jabs to gain more points from striking and to avoid getting winded.
- Nicolino, on the other hand starts off a match very relaxed. He will only move if required to.
- Nicolino will tire his opponent out by constantly blocking, slipping, or rolling punches.
- Nicolino hated training. Whenever he ran, he would typically go by beaches and splash water through his hair to convince his trainer that he was sweaty.
- Nicolo smoked A LOT. He even smoked in between his boxing rounds. None of this impacted his stamina, however.
- Swimming, basketball.
- Nicolino Locche - The Defensive Genius - YouTube (0:21), (1:30), (1:52)
- The Comedic Timing Of Nicolino Locche - YouTube (6:25) Just observe the speed in the second video.
- Floyd Mayweather - The Boss💸 - YouTube
- An INSTANT CLASSIC! Mayweather Jr vs. De La Hoya: Every Punch - YouTube (1:45), (3:02), (3:20)
- Nicolino hated training. Whenever he ran, he would typically go by beaches and splash water through his hair to convince his trainer that he was sweaty.
- Nicolo smoked A LOT. He even smoked in between his boxing rounds. None of this impacted his stamina, however.Floyd’s routine:
- Swimming, basketball.
“I didn't actually know Nicolino was such an unhealthy and lazy guy but that's good to know. Since we are debating about the past edition of both at their respective sort of peaks, I am sure that Pro has no room to argue 'he would train hard for this and go superpowered'.
“That's... yeah that's where it stops except that Nicolino indeed was the pioneer but the inventor of a style of something is rarely ever the best at it (think about it, they were against opponents that didn't know how to handle it, the entire boxing world hadn't studied how to counter a purely defensive style.)”
- Defense wasn’t a thing during this time because the boxing industry believed raw power and strength were the key.
- Defense existed but the number of fighters who used it were not popular. Nor was it honed to Nico's ability.
- Nicolino is considered to be above Floyd Mayweather in defense.
“My disagreements to the entire rest of it.I will give Lancelot credit, he has made my life easy. He's hit most of the key points I want to (instead as a rebuttal against it) but one key point ignored that I wish to constructively raise is that Boxing is harder in the future than the past, by far, since its professional taking on.”
Boxing has been studied inside-out (such as to refine the ideas of how to label opponents as one of 5-7 styles) and the ways to counter each style has been mastered too by most professional boxers at the A-tier of their respective weight classes. Nicolino was able to be relaxed, smoothly reactive and less timid than Floyd because back then especially since neither is vs heavyweights who are liable to smash you out cold in one hit with ease or crack your ribs with 1-2 hard hits, it allowed Nicolino to safely be lazy. The difference of the average welterweight or whatever weight they are, opponent, is immense. Floyd is generally vs opponents who'd break Nicolino into pieces. Floyd is one of those rare cases of a guy who didn't often tactically pick easy opponents to bolster his record, at least in my opinion. He was legit making hardcore welterweight proficient fighters look hapless often. Only 2 opponents have made Floyd truly realise he's vsing an equal and one of those was the opponent Lancelot showed (Oscar De La Hoya) and the other is Victor Ortiz, a third contender is Jose Luis Castillo I.”
“Do you know what those 3 have in common? They are extremely aggressive fighters who know how to be aggressive without forgetting defense. That is the style Floyd is weakest against. That style in Lancelot's typology is the Swarmer/Pressure Fighter.”
“It is nearly irrefutable that this is the style he is weakest against and he is strongest against defensive opponents.The Floyd in '07 was actually a hybrid. As my opponent points out he wasn't a pure defensive guy back then, he had a LOT of flurrying about him and dodged like a god. My opponent implies Nicolino had this god given ability that Floyd lacks, FALSE. Floyd is the single most talented dodger of boxing's history at the welterweight class, I firmly believe this.”
- The hybrid style is the hardest.
- 2007 is the weakest version of Floyd Mayweather because he wasn’t trying to master the hybrid style. He was within the transition stage of his default offensive to switching to defense.
- Nicolino didn’t have a God-given ability but he had 15 years of fighting to hone and fully develop this skill. Floyd was in the infancy stage of defense.
“Floyd knows point allocation and judge psychology like no other boxer too. Nicolino is no joke of course but what Floyd understands is how to win Rounds in the judge's eyes with literally 3 more points than his opponent got. He is also zero percent afraid to play filthy. The way he beat Victor Ortez is by far his most vile move; he touched the gloves after a slip up/foul where Ortez touched the back of his head. Then in response to this after Ortez went to hug him and say 'hey man I'm sorry' they touch gloves and of course Ortez is still thinking alright we're good and the next 2 seconds pass and Floyd knocks him out. This is never ever considered good etiquette but is technically completely within the rules as they had touched gloves. Nicolino was dirty too but in a lazy way. He was known to even bring opponents towards his corner intentionally as the fighting round ended so he didn't have to walk to sit. This is all nice and dandy except for one thing:”
“The people who tried to be like Floyd/Nicolino to Floyd were easily the opponents he had the most ease enduring and fighting against. Nicolino isn't as scientific with his style as Floyd and doesn't truly rack up points as clinically to edge out rounds. Floyd would transform into a tactical swarmer as rounds neared their end just for the sake of points and have the energy to avoid any sucker punch Nicolino could offer (which would be barely any, Nicolino wasn't the hardest puncher at all).”
“Nicolino is lazier and could afford to be, boxing was in its baby era, Floyd won it in its prime era where the science of it was understood to the core and all coaches and athletes in it knew the fundamentals well. If they were to vs each other, I reckon it goes the full length and Floyd is the one less tired, because he's just fitter and knows how to make other defensive boxers suffer as he becomes hybrid against them, baiting out blocks intentionally to hit them elsewhere etc.”
- Maintained my position that Nico is the Pioneer of Defense by demonstrating he is one of the greatest defensive fighters. Better than Floyd.
- My argument about Nicolino being better at energy conservation than Floyd remains uncontested. It will remain. Extend.
- Proven that Nicolino is exceptional by illustrating the training differences and how Nico could afford to be lazier.
- Gave evidence that Floyd picks and chooses opponents he can beat, while showing Nico’s command over his style was stronger than Floyd’s, and that Nico’s boxing prowess is superior.
- Con argues that modern boxing is harder than old-school boxing, but I refute this by demonstrating the greatest boxers are from the 1930’s-1980’s.
- Con mentions Floyd does poorly against aggressive boxers but is at his best when against defensive fighters. I point out that it has to do with the boxers’ mastery of the style rather than the style itself.
- I show that 2007 Floyd is the weakest because of his calcium deficiency and the damage his hands took from using offense for so long that he is slowly making the switch to all-defense.
“He was a genius at conserving energy and his box of tricks was limitless. He would have been a very hard nights work for any 140lbs fighter, both past and present.”“He may have had the look of a throwback brawler, but his output and defensive genius in the ring was on a parallel with the likes of Willie Pep and Muhammad Ali. Those who stereotyped his looks would always have a rude awakening as he stood inches from them, pulling them apart, piece by piece, both mentally and physically. On so many levels, he really was, Untouchable.”
- Nicolino’s defense is so advanced that Floyd will miss every-time.
- Nicolino never tired out once and demonstrated the ability to go 15 rounds in 1971, two years from the version of Nicolino I’m describing.
- Nicolino’s size advantage gives him more durability than Floyd, so even if Floyd did manage to land a punch with his KO power, it wouldn’t end the fight.
- Nico can dodge punches and evade body-shots entirely.
- Floyd can dodge strikes too, but his specific defense is designed only to minimize the impact rather than make the opponent miss.
- Nicolino Locche - The Untouchable (Highlights Video) - YouTube (2:20) If you watch even 30 seconds to one minute of the video, you get a hint of just how slick Nico is.
- Now compare this to Floyd’s defense. Floyd Mayweather Defensive Genius (Defense Highlights) HD - YouTube
- He finished off the year of 1973 with 129 total fights and only four losses.
- After 1973, he would only fight 7 more times and win all of them.
- Nico was used to taking 3-5 fights a year.
- Floyd would only fight 1 time a year. Sometimes, 2.
- Boxing is harder (withing the same weight level to be good at defensively in 1970s to 1980s than 2000s
- Nicolino had harder opponents than Mayweather, or even equal
- Mayweather's style is too cautious vs Nicolino's who is the perfect dodger and baiter
Floyd Mayweather was able to avoid injuries to his face in the ringOver the course of Floyd Mayweather's amateur boxing career, he earned an excellent 84-6 record and showed great potential for becoming a successful pro boxer, per Biography. His ability to defend against his opposition was outstanding from the start. Unlike other boxers, who would leave the ring having to deal with bruised, battered, and swollen faces, Mayweather rarely received facial injuries during fights, due to his elevated defensive skills. As a result of his limited facial scars compared to his peers, Mayweather was soon called "Pretty Boy" by the boxing world."I got that name, not because of my looks, but because when my fights finished, I never came out cut or bruised. My amateur teammates gave me the name," Mayweather said to The Sweet Science in 2005. Mayweather's "Pretty Boy" status was especially apparent during his 2005 fight against Arturo Gatti. As reported by The Sweet Science, Gatti had to end the fight after only six rounds due to a tough beating, while Mayweather left the ring unscathed.
- In 1973, Nico had 129 overall fights and ONLY 4 losses. Current Floyd has 50 total fights and 0 losses.
- 2007 Floyd is the weakest version of Floyd because of his calcium deficiency and hand injuries remains uncontested. Extend.
- Nicolino is the pioneer of defense in boxing. Con counters that an inventor is rarely the master and it’s easier to be defensive because boxing was in its infancy stage. I maintain the point by arguing boxing analysts consider Nicolino better than Floyd at defense and defense was obscure because audiences prefer brutality to finesse.
- Nicolino being better at conserving energy remains uncontested by Con, so I extend.
- Con correctly points out Nicolino’s habits are unhealthy compared to Floyd’s. I point out that Nico’s skill/style make him exceptional enough to get away with this and his habits have never affected him once during his career.
- I argue Nico’s boxing prowess is superior to Floyd. Con says Floyd fights challenging opponents, but I prove that Floyd cherry-picks fights that he can win and waits until the opponent is washed-up before challenging them.
- I mention Nico is stronger and durable because of his build. Con points out Floyd’s height and reach advantage.
“So, an extremely crucial thing here is whether Floyd was 49-0 (let's ignore the 50 vs Conor Mcgregor) against superior boxers to the ones that enabled Nicolino Locche to have a 117-4 record.Let's start with the self-evident blatant fact that back in Nicolino's time he was not only one of the first defensive boxers ever but that boxing itself was in its baby phase in terms of professional 1v1 scored, judged things as we know it. Before that all that was refined was knocking out opponents, due to lack of sophisticated cameras and the fact that how to score certain moves was still being refined, you already had to become knockout-oriented until Nicolino's era.”
- In the early twentieth century, it became the practice for the referee or judge to score bouts by the number of rounds won by each boxer. To improve the reliability of scoring, two ringside judges were added besides the referee, and the winner was decided by majority decision.
“I also want to say I was ignorant to agree that Nicolino pioneered the style. Willie Pep did. Willie Pep was a 1940s boxer that pioneered abusing opponents' urge to win and turning it against them, tiring them out. Willie Pep could afford this as not only was he around at a time when boxing was in its baby era (even more so than Nicolino) but he stuck almost entirely (not sure if he ever shifted) to featherweight boxing. Featherweights are skinny guys who can't really knock you out or break your bones in one or two hits, at welterweight they at least can harm you with 2 solid power punches and knockout really do occur not just by tiring and striking but speedy counterpunching.That is what I agree with my opponent about; at the welterweight level, Nicolino pioneered it. Nicolino also had different weights during his career and of course was better at his style while against lighter weight opponents.”
“Floyd Mayweather Jr. (the defensive boxer) was not purely defensive and he could never have afforded to be. What he did was more similar to Mike Tyson's heavyweight and brutal peekaboo style. The peekaboo style Tyson mastered was being defensive while being brutally offensive all at once. The idea being that the constant threat of you moving into the opponent's body-range baits out hits from them. This became the new defensive style a lot of boxers took on but Tyson did it to a level few could mimic because he hit hard and fast despite being defensive. Obviously this is due to his heavyweight arms allowing that. Mayweather wasn't a one-hit wonder too often other than some convenient counterpunches knocking opponents out. What he was was a weatherer and the key point I need to prove is that he weathered down opponents and knocked them out to the point that out of his 50 wins, 27 were by knockout.”
“I am not here telling you Mayweather would necessarily knockout Locche, instead I reckon they go to the end and tired each other out. I am instead going to prove that Mayweather is fitter and better and has regularly been against opponents Locche would have struggled against.”
“First of all the average human being is taller and stronger now (especially male human being) than they were before. Yes, even just over decades, the knowledge of diets of average humans is superior to ever before. The problem isn't just that it's at the peak level, what coaches advise and such. There's a reason Nicolino could get away with being a lazy smoker, that reason is that his opponents generally had poor diets and training vs what boxers do now.Does Pro really think all Floyd does is swimming and plyometrics? Then clearly he was not speaking in hyperbole. Floyd trains hardcore in ways they hadn't even developed the techniques for back in Locche's era.”
To begin with, Locche himself was 1.68m only which is the extreme low end of a 5'5" individual. That height now is extremely problematic because for the same weight division yes you're slightly bulkier therefore but your reach and ability to 'in and out' are reduced. Back in his era 5'5" was very average for a male fighter (meaning actually average men were more like 5'3 or 5'4 believe it or not). That's how severely nutrition and lifestyle changes have increased male heights over time.Floyd is not known to be a tall fighter of this era or his weight class and he is 5'8" He is specifically 5cm above Locche and has more reach no doubt. He is also only 5cm taller. The reason 'only' is important is that his ducking technique where he uses Mike tyson's peekaboo style is still going to be effective. He will down-and-up Locche in ways Locche can't handle.
The reason Locche never got such a nickname is that he wasn't quite as flawless at said thing and furthermore it was less amazing back then to be that untouchable. In Locche's era, others who were less defensive still ended up unscathed as there was a huge noticeable gap between the top dogs and lower ranked boxers. In Floyd's era what I am trying to explain is a concept of 'powercreep'.
Do you actually not see where this is going? The reason the oh-so-timid Floyd as my opponent accuses him of being actually ended 27 of his fights in knockout is that to be defensive alone is not enough anymore, people know how to exploit it. They will rack up points against you and win tactically without needing to knock you out. This forces you to need to become more aggressive and offensive yourself if you wish to counteract them and win rounds. Floyd knows exactly how to do this, he knows it to a T and just as much as he clinches points, he clinches dodges and makes opponents waste energy again and again in ways Locche didn't quite know how to do.