Instigator / Con

Mall

1476

rating

336

debates

40.77%

won

Topic

#4092

You can prove biblically that divorce is ultimately justified and righteous before God.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...

Mall

Tags

Religion

Parameters

Publication date: 01.24.2023 08:00PM
Last updated date: 02.27.2023 07:32PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: Three days
Max argument characters: 30,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Pro

Best.Korea

1309

rating

269

debates

40.71%

won

Description

Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

Pretty straightforward to prove from the biblical scriptures as written, that divorce is ultimately justified and righteous before God.

Also be prepared to answers questions in the debate. Don't run, don't evade, don't think it's just a come and say whatever and run.

Be prepared to defend yourself with responses and answers.

Pretty clear and direct but any questions, leave a comment.

Round 1

Mall

01.26.2023 04:59PM

Con

What is or are the biblical scripture (s) you're using to show divorce of a man and woman from marriage is ultimately justified and righteous to God ?

Best.Korea

01.27.2023 03:54PM

Pro

Thank you for starting an interesting debate.

The topic is: "You can prove biblically that divorce is ultimately justified and righteous before God.".

My position is "I can prove biblically that divorce is ultimately justified and righteous before God".

I will support that claim by providing an example of divorce being justified in the Bible.

From the Bible:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

This sentence tells us that "Man who divorces his wife for sexual immorality does not commit adultery."

It could also be said in this form: "If wife is sexually immoral, it is justified for her husban to divorce from her".

This confirms the postition that divorce is justified in the Bible in case of sexual immorality.

However, what troubles me is the "ultimately justified" part of the topic.

I would like if there was a definition of "ultimately justified".

If your wife is sexually immoral, it is "ultimately justified to divorce from her".

Round 2

Mall

01.27.2023 04:59PM

Con

"My position is "I can prove biblically that divorce is ultimately justified and righteous before God".

I will support that claim by providing an example of divorce being justified in the Bible. "

This is inconsistent. Are you proving with scripture that it is justified or ultimately justified?

There is a difference .

"From the Bible:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

This sentence tells us that "Man who divorces his wife for sexual immorality does not commit adultery." "

First off, give the book , chapter , verse and bible translation you are taking this from .

"It could also be said in this form: "If wife is sexually immoral, it is justified for her husban to divorce from her". "

You shouldn't worry about what could be said. You have the onus of showing what the Bible says.

"This confirms the postition that divorce is justified in the Bible in case of sexual immorality."

It does not .

"However, what troubles me is the "ultimately justified" part of the topic.

I would like if there was a definition of "ultimately justified". "

Why didn't you ask this question in the comments like I communicated?

You should understand what you don't understand prior to getting involved. That's just the cart after the horse instead of before it .

"If your wife is sexually immoral, it is "ultimately justified to divorce from her". "

You have to prove by book , chapter and verse where we can read that .

Try to polish this up next round. This was a little lackluster.

Best.Korea

01.27.2023 06:48PM

Pro

Thank you for taking time to do this debate.

This is inconsistent. Are you proving with scripture that it is justified or ultimately justified?

Since there is no definition for "ultimately justified", I have to use the definition provided by the dictionary.

"ultimately" is defined as "in the end".

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ultimately

"justified" is defined as "having or shown to have a just, right, or reasonable basis"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justified

From this, the definition of "ultimately justified" is "In the end, having or shown to have a just, right, or reasonable basis"

First off, give the book , chapter , verse and bible translation you are taking this from .

https://biblia.com/bible/esv/matthew/19/9

This link contains the following versions of the verse Matthew 19:9:

"Matthew 19:9 — The New International Version (NIV)

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — King James Version (KJV 1900)

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — New Living Translation (NLT)

And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.

Matthew 19:9 — The New King James Version (NKJV)

And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — New Century Version (NCV)

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman is guilty of adultery. The only reason for a man to divorce his wife is if his wife has sexual relations with another man.

Matthew 19:9 — American Standard Version (ASV)

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — 1890 Darby Bible (DARBY)

But I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, not for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and he who marries one put away commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

I can guarantee that whoever divorces his wife for any reason other than her unfaithfulness is committing adultery if he marries another woman.

Matthew 19:9 — The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

And I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — The Lexham English Bible (LEB)

Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the basis of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9 — New International Reader’s Version (1998) (NIrV)

Here is what I tell you. Anyone who divorces his wife and gets married to another woman commits adultery. A man may divorce his wife only if she has not been faithful to him.

Matthew 19:9 — New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (NASB95)

And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

The claim "I can prove biblically that divorce is ultimately justified and righteous before God" is proven correct by these verses from the Bible that I provided along with definitions.

You shouldn't worry about what could be said. You have the onus of showing what the Bible says.

What I refered to was what the Bible was saying.

Why didn't you ask this question in the comments like I communicated?

It is my failure.

However, it does not harm my position in this debate.

I have provided definitions and verse from the Bible that prove the topic "I can prove biblically that divorce is ultimately justified and righteous before God" to be true.

I would like to hear your arguments on this.

Round 3

Mall

01.28.2023 11:28AM

Con

To cut straight to the chase, Matthew 19:9 doesn't read that divorce is ultimately justified or justified period so either way it doesn't work

It does read what adultery is. I believe you're making an assumption somewhere based on something.

Why are you saying in this verse in Matthew 19 it is justifying divorce?

If you notice and read the verse , you find won't the words "divorce is justified" or "justified divorce" anywhere in the verse. So how did you come to that conclusion?

I hope you're not regurgitating what other people have said from the same error in their understanding .

The common error is reading into the text, presupposing, getting your interpretations from your thoughts not absorbing what is written as is.

A person that divorces one person and marries another outside of a specific circumstance constitutes adultery.

We just read what constitutes adultery. We were not told divorce is justified. Two separate points.

For example, a person that uses my car except for those that fill it up with gas is inconsiderate of my fuel expenses.

That example tells you nothing about either party of persons being justified in using my car or ultimately justified in stealing it.

But I bet you made some assumptions in your mind based on the terms "a person that uses my car".

Just something to think about particularly when addressing the Bible because these scriptures are believed to be from the words of the prophets whom received them from God Almighty.

Putting words in somebody's mouth is one thing, but God, that's a big deal.

Best.Korea

01.28.2023 02:36PM

Pro

You have an interesting point of view on this matter.

Matthew 19:9 doesn't read that divorce is ultimately justified or justified

Is a claim that is very questionable, in my opinion.

In the verses that I provided, it is clearly mentioned that "divorce is not adultery" is true if "wife has committed sexual immorality" is true.

If "wife has committed sexual immorality" is true, then the claim "divorce is adultery" is false.

If Bible describes divorce as "not adultery", then "not adultery" is a justification for divorce.

Further, if Bible says "Whoever marries such woman commits adultery" means that unless the man divorces from her, he is committing adultery by being in such marriage.

That is more support for divorce being ultimately justified in case of sexual immorality.

I would like to hear the reasons you think divorce is not ultimately justified in case of adultery.

I know that Bible can be understood in many ways. It is complicated because its a large book and its difficult to put all the pieces together.

In my opinion, Bible condemns adultery and demands death of a person who commits adultery. If my wife commits adultery, I will not kill her. However, if I dont divorce her, what does that mean for me?

Round 4

Mall

01.28.2023 06:29PM

Con

"I would like to hear the reasons you think divorce is not ultimately justified in case of adultery."

The verse you provided doesn't say it is justified. I wish you could of expounded on why you assumed it did. If you did expand on that, it just wasn't clear to me.

Away from the verse you attempted to prove with that divorce is ultimately justified, we have a problem scripturally.

Actually we have more than one. First problem, a scripture was not presented where we read divorce is justified period .

Second problem is framed in a question. Why would God hate something that is justified?

That's part of the topic title with something being righteous before God. GOD loves the righteous.

This is not even necessary to bring this point up as Matthew 19:9 didn't state divorce was justified, that should be suffice.

But in case a person cannot resist in allowing themselves to read into a text, here's some assurance that they're actually reading something that's not there.

Malachi 2:

"16 “For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and [c]him who covers his garment with violence,” says the Lord of armies. “So be careful about your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”"

Why would God hate something that was supposedly justified overall in Matthew 19?

He wouldn't.

Isaiah 61:8

"For I the Lord love justice; I hate robbery and wrong".

So that verse in Matthew 19 is not ultimately justifying divorce when it's an act not in the name of justice and righteous before God.

Besides this, it doesn't say the words "divorce is justified".

God love righteousness.

Psalms 11:6

"For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness".

I was hoping for a more detailed debate from you but much of your responses and points were shallow and short.

They tended to be circular and we've could of gone deeper into the scriptures but all you've said in essence indirectly is Matthew 19:9 clearly mentioned that "divorce is not adultery" .

Which is not true. I did a word search in all the paragraphs on the page of the debate rounds and the phrase "divorce is not adultery" was only referenced once which was where I quoted from.

In which that was from the last round where you typed it. Unless you mean something different by the word "mentioned", the first and only time the phrase was said or mentioned was with you making the statement.

If you notice, I try to pay sharp attention to words and word usage.

"Divorce is not adultery", I don't know what point you're trying to make with that statement. It's greatly besides the point of where you were burdened to find "divorce is justified or ultimately justified and righteous before God".

At this point, if you still insist on a verse reading what it does not read by saying words are there that simply are not, not only are you going to have a problem there, now you have to demonstrate how is something justified yet wrong because what is hated is wrong.

This is what the Bible means by changing the truth of God for a lie, calling evil good and good evil.

Best.Korea

01.28.2023 07:32PM

Pro

Thank you for this debate. It was interesting.

AleutianTexan

02.05.2023 06:12PM

Criterion

Con

Tie

Pro

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con wins because Con shows that God hates divorce and loves justice and righteousness. Personally, Pro was winning the debate until Con brought up bible verses because Pro had the only model of what the Bible said on the issue. Even though righteousness and justification aren't explicit, I think it is implicitly there, and saying it is not explicit isn't enough from Con to disprove that. Pro, you had a really good out. Con demanded a Bible translation but didn't provide one himself. If you had not essentially forfeited the last speech and said I can't weigh any Bible verses without a translation, it would have been an easy ballot for you. I would also give you conduct and sources for that reason was this a multi-pointed debate. If yall have any questions, please feel free to message, comment, or question me!