Instigator / Pro
7
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4106

Cinderella Man is the best movie for male role models.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
0

After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...

Sir.Lancelot
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
6
1700
rating
544
debates
68.01%
won
Description

The traits which male role models embody.: Strength, honor, integrity, assertiveness, leadership, bravery, and responsibility.

On-balance.

Rules:
1. This is on-balance, so Con must choose his own movie as the best one for male role models in round 1. It can only be one movie.
2. The movie that best emphasizes each of the qualities mentioned above wins the debate.
3. 2 sources minimum.
4. Scenes from the movie must be used as examples to match the characteristics listed above.
5.One forfeit is the loss of a conduct point. Two is an auto-loss.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Synopsis
James J. Braddock is a boxer struggling in the Great Depression era while trying to take care of his family. An injury leaves him unemployable and forces him to sell all of his training equipment and switch careers to working on the docks. After abandoning his old life for a while, he is given the golden opportunity of redemption and to return to his glory days.

Qualities:
Strength- The emotional or mental qualities necessary in dealing with situations or events that are distressing or difficult.

  • James used to make thousands for each of his fights, and now he only makes $50. The decrease in income causes him lots of stress, but he’s still persistent while ignoring an injury.
  • Coming to terms with the fact that he’s no longer suitable for boxing and taking on physically demanding jobs, like working on the docks.
  • Demonstrating the resilience to return to boxing after recovering from his injuries.

Honor- Fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement).
  • James always kept his word. He promised his kids he would never give them up and he talked his wife out of giving them up for adoption.

Integrity- The quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
  • After having lost his pride and confidence, James has the humility to borrow money from people. Upon re-earning the money, he repays everyone.
  • He lectures his son after catching him for stealing and has him return the stolen item. 

Assertiveness- The quality of being self-assured and confident without being aggressive to defend a right point of view or a relevant statement.

  • Our main character is always in control of himself during the whole movie and de-escalates the tension between a drunk man and his wife without losing his temper.
  • He INSISTS on fighting Max Baer, despite the reputation of his opponent. 

Leadership- The ability of an individual or a group of individuals to influence and guide followers or other members of an organization.

  • As the father of the household, James is the one who makes all the major decisions. They aren’t always the smartest, but he always encourages his family to make the morally and ethically correct choices.
  • James regularly inspires his fans. 

Bravery- Courageous behavior or character.
  • Max Baer has killed a man in the ring before and is seen as this villain. James’s wife is concerned he may not make it out alive, but he goes through with the fight anyway.
  • James has already been through trauma, having put his life on the line by regularly working on the docks. 

Responsibility- The state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.

  • In order to take care of his family, James is willing to abandon his former lifestyle and sell his training equipment. 
  • Swallows his pride and takes on the burden of providing for his family even under tough circumstances. 

Conclusion
James J. Braddock is an example of a man who goes through a personal crisis and works to overcome it and becomes a changed person as a result. After facing the trauma with a strong mindset, he comes out stronger and humbler as a result of these experiences. He is a guy with resilience and a high pain threshold. 


Con
#2
I understand my opponent's style of rigidly saying scenes and the traits but the movie I am picking requires us to see the flow of the movie and look deeper.

The movie I choose is Click. It is an inverted anti-role-model concept where the moral of the story is extremely pro-male-role-model in nature.

I want to quickly note things that are lacking in the description to explain why this movie nearly perfectly suffices...

  • No intelligence or wisdom element, the description states nothing about a male role model movie needing to encourage wisdom.
  • No brutal/blunt honesty aspect, only 'honour' indirectly hints at it in severe moments.
  • No aspect of being loyal to one's wife or needing infidelity and such covered but again maybe this somehow comes under 'honour'.
  • No need for severe self control or caution so long as one is relatively responsible.
Considering those 4 aspects aren't needed to be covered and that those four aspects of manhood and being a good male adult are not really covered in Click, I think Click perfectly fits the description if we assume something:

SPOILERS ALERT NOW, DO NOT BLAME ME.

A movie can teach you and guide you to be a fantastic male role model without actually showing all the positive aspects the whole movie. What I mean is Click step by step shows how the main character lacks those traits and uses the magic remote to avoid them and brutally, bitterly leads to him regretting it in old age.

I will be pasting a synopsis for your and my own ease and to certainly assist those who haven't watched the movie.

Michael Newman is an architect who is consistently bullied by his overbearing boss, John Ammer, and often chooses work over his wife Donna and his two children, Ben and Samantha. One night, Michael visits the retail store Bed Bath & Beyond to buy a universal remote control. He stumbles around the various departments before falling asleep. Upon waking, he accepts a free remote control from a man named Morty, who warns him that it can never be returned.

Michael learns that the remote can be used to control reality much like a television. He uses it to his advantage at work, to cause light-hearted mischief, and to fast-forward past illnesses. Morty tells Michael that during these times, his body is on "auto-pilot", going through his motions of everyday life while his mind skips ahead.

Thinking that Ammer has promoted him to a partnership, Michael buys bicycles for his children and a purse for Donna. However, Ammer tells him that he has not yet been promoted and thus cannot afford the gifts and has to return them. Angry that he upset his family, Michael uses the remote to skip ahead to his promotion, thus missing a year of his life. During this time, he and Donna have entered marriage counseling, his children have matured, and the family dog has died. The remote, having learned his preferences, starts time-skipping automatically. Each time Michael attempts to discard or destroy the remote, it reappears, and Morty refuses to take it back.

At work, Ammer tells Michael he plans on retiring, which would make Michael the new head of the International Division and that in time, Michael could be promoted to CEO. This causes the remote to instantly fast-forward ten years into the future, where Michael is extremely wealthy, but morbidly obese and lives alone in a luxury apartment. He returns home to discover that Ben, now overweight like himself, and Samantha have both become moody teenagers, and that Donna has divorced him and remarried to Bill, Ben's former childhood swim coach. When he argues with them, the new family dog jumps on Michael and knocks him into a coma. The remote time-skips six years to when Michael wakes, no longer obese as a result of having undergone liposuction to save his life as a part of his cancer treatment and subsequent heart attack. A full-grown Ben is now a partner at the firm and is also slim having exercised with Bill.

Michael learns that his father, Ted, has died of old age. Morty reappears as Michael mourns him. Michael uses the remote to see when he last saw Ted, when Michael coldly rebuffed Ted's offer to take him and Ben out to dinner. At Ted's grave, Morty appears and reveals to Michael that he is the Angel of Death. Overcome with guilt and shame, Michael asks to go to a "good place", whereupon the remote fast-forwards him several more years in the future to Ben's wedding. He overhears Samantha refer to Bill as Dad, triggering a second heart attack. He wakes in the hospital that night to find his family there, including Ben, who reveals that he skipped his honeymoon to help fix issues with the firm, before a nurse sends Ben and Samantha away. Fearing that Ben will make the same mistakes he did, Michael gathers the last of his strength to follow him and Samantha out of the hospital, but he collapses and subsequently dies, but not before telling Ben to put his wife before work, and assures his family that he still loves them.

Michael reawakens in Bed Bath & Beyond and finds that he was dreaming but sees it as a sign that he needs to make changes in his life. He embraces his family and promises to spend more time with them. He finds the remote on the counter along with a note from Morty, who reveals he has given him a second chance because "Good guys need a break." Michael throws the remote in the trash and, much to his delight, it does not reappear. He then joins his family in a pillow fight.

I will just explain some things now. Not rebuke Pro so that we both used Round 1 fairly to argue our own movie.

    Strength, honor, integrity, assertiveness, leadership, bravery, and responsibility.

    • Strength and leadership hybrid lesson ~ He avoids ever being strong and is cucked both as a husband and father by his former swim coach. This movie involves a man skipping years ahead, fastfowarding and rewinding his life. What he does is fastforward entire years and even decades where he has to endure hardship to get to the 'rewards'. However, since who he was during the autopilot years was a minimalistic, lazy guy putting minimum effort in and not being strong or a good leader. A coach is a figure that represents leadership and strength, one who encouraged his former student even in his old age having won his wife over, to be stronger and a better man+leader. The scenes are hard to show due to copyright issues.

    ^ This is a summary of the 'bad future' scene where he's skipped an entire decade into the future and he has barely any respect from his own children but has enough that when he insists his daughter go up and wipe off her make-up she oveys.

    He tries to challenge him to 'win' her back assuming she was cheating on him with that man. He didn't realise in the decade, he'd lost her to the man. In that scene, the angel of death (played by the super masculine man Christopher Walken) appears and tells him he can win her back. Notice how during the 'fight' to get her back he instinctively 'pauses' the scene to cheat and kick the other guy in the balls? Notice how that backfires? That is what this movie teaches him time and time again; you can't cheat your way to win in life.

    It teaches him to have never wanted that remote. It also teaches him to not skip the bad parts of life at all. Instead the 'bad' parts are the tough parts that make a man a good father, a good son and a good person.

    Look at this scene where he specates what his autopilot self did with 3 generations in the same room:

    It shows how pathetic he finds himself to be. It shows there that the entire movie he'd just been skipping all the parts of life men have to face with strength, honor and integrity instead of 'skipping to the good bit'!

    The reason I pick this movie is that it approaches manhood and what it means to have the traits in the description in a way barely any other movie ever has and in an extremely powerful, emotional (ironically, almost feminine) way. I actually cried when I watched this movie at the ending, quietly to myself I had to hold back tears. It made my heart race and genuinely feel and appreciate the moral.

    This scene is so utterly powerful after you take into consideration how the movie had gone:

    There is of course a spoiler I must say to highlight that the moral of this movie is irrefutable. He does actually get a second chance. He forgives the coach in that scene and says it's okay with his hand-sign but he ends up given a chance to be that man. He goes back in time (granted as a surprise by the angel of death Christopher Walken character) and is offered the remote, which he throws in the bin and spends time with his family that night, ready to be the man that takes life head on instead of avoiding the problems.

    It is also a key thing to appreciate that it began with him being so irresponsible he fell asleep in a shop's on-display bed. 
    Round 2
    Pro
    #3
    The movie Click is a profound example because it is sentimental, hilarious, and very tragic at the same time. Adam Sandler is truly a comedy icon and brilliant actor.
    But I don't believe the main character of the movie, Michael Newman, quite embodies the qualities in the description at least to the extent that James J. Braddock does. 

    A movie can teach you and guide you to be a fantastic male role model without actually showing all the positive aspects the whole movie. What I mean is Click step by step shows how the main character lacks those traits and uses the magic remote to avoid them and brutally, bitterly leads to him regretting it in old age.

    I will be pasting a synopsis for your and my own ease and to certainly assist those who haven't watched the movie.

    Comparison/Similarities
    Both characters are middle-aged. Both are charismatic, successful, and loving fathers. As well as family-men. 
    But James's crisis is beyond his control, whereas Michael's own actions are an indeliberate self-sabotage.

    Character Transformation:
    James (My character) has a completely different struggle than the latter character. 

    After losing too many fights and barely getting in a punch, the Boxing Industry views James as washed-up and too old. This hits harder because he is seen as damaged goods. His manager pleads his case but is unsuccessful. His license is revoked and he is kicked from boxing. 
    After having been out of the business for a while, James is presented with his first opportunity to return to boxing, and it is this fight that ultimately sets him up to regain his success. Skip to (1:30) Cinderella Man (2/8) Movie CLIP - One Hell of a Goodbye (2005) HD - YouTube

    James's victory and triumph music here demonstrates that he WILL return. That this crisis is nothing more than a temporary set-back.

    Michael Newman's redemption just isn't as euphoric because we never get to fully experience him reaping the rewards. It just seems that at every moment, he takes shortcuts and constantly digs himself into a deeper hole. We are happy when he gets his second chance at the end, but after all the tragedies we've experienced, the outcome is more a feeling of relief and satisfaction than appreciation. Click: Michael passes away HD CLIP - YouTube

    But with every setback James faces, he overcomes them and we truly get to appreciate how far he's come and grown. After all the stress we've endured, there is this cathartic feeling with every victory James racks up. This movie is about fortitude and determination.

    The movie Cinderella Man encourages strong feelings of strength and optimism. It's a journey about not necessarily having an easy life, but building the strength to endure a difficult one.

    Meanwhile, the movie Click lacks this feeling of positivity. It is funny, yes, but it's also grim. As the story progresses, you know things are going to get worse and have no idea how they will get better. 

    Also, when you consider role models, they have to possess characteristics you yourself admire and want to embody. James J. Braddock has all of them from his sheer determination and strength to his hard work ethic. Michael Newman is an Ebenezer Scrooge archetype. He is greedy, lazy, miserable and always ready to take shortcuts to life's problems.

    Most people would want to be like James Braddock, but in his death scene, Michael tells his son, "Put your family first," which is essentially telling people NOT to be like him. 

    Con
    #4
    Forfeited
    Round 3
    Pro
    #5
    Extend.
    Con
    #6
    I understand that forfeiting rounds is considered bad conduct on this website. I did not do it out of disrespect for my opponent, I am one who likes to think deeply about topics before approaching them and this has 5 Rounds, so by making it into a 4-Round debate honestly we haven't lost much debate room. I really didn't want to risk coming at this from an angle that can backfire on me later and have calculated the best way to summaries my hybrid defense and attack:

    1. Pro's movie (PM) is too typical and mimicking others, it doesn't quite cut as uniquely good or the 'best' specifically because near replicas exist. Click (C, I do not use CM to avoid it being confused with cindarella man) really sits in the memory of men that watch it.
    2. PM involves hints at a lot of toxic masculinity on top of the supposed 'good traits' and isn't clear on how precisely one should act on them.
    3. PM shows a guy, a man, a person and men should not aim to mimic men but to be their own person, to be their own masculine path-creating instead of path-following beastly manly spirit. C enables this far more by focusing on what to avoid and gently hinting at the pointers of what to be instead, letting you fit that into your own life how you see fit rather than have footsteps to fill that may not at all fit what you as a man are.
    4. PM too literally interprets the resolution, if you follow the actual movie instead of cherrypicking scenes, it's not that good at hinting at you how to become a male role model.
     
    The first point is both psychological and statistical. I cannot exactly prove the statistics as there is not a category called 'how to be a man' movie. The point is that the idea of a very masculine movie oriented to men has existed for decades, the problem for Pro is that PM really follows a generic mold. It's got some romance, got some beating other guys up and honestly is just another movie to most that watch it. Quite frankly, I could list 100 movies ahead of it (yes, literally) in teaching men how to be good males. This movie just doesn't sit at all in the memory of a man that watches it, generally speaking. It generally gets 3-star reviews but I did find that it sometimes has 4 star review average on sites like Rotten Tomatoes.

    This website lets you give 0.5 degree ratings so 4.5 ratings instead of 5 star tended to lead away from solely boxing focus. I am not sure how this teaches you how to be a man and for many this is just an attempt at doing Rocky a bit differently. Click is unlike anything, it truly warms hearts and sticks with you so for memory purposes I think I win this angle.

    The leading theory in psychology is that there are 3 stages to long-term memory storage of things:
    Encoding
    The first step to creating a memory is called encoding: It's when you notice an event or come across a piece of information and your brain consciously perceives the sounds, images, physical feeling, or other sensory details involved.
    Let's take, for example, your first trip to Las Vegas. Your memory of that event is formed by your visual system (noticing extravagantly designed buildings and lush landscaping, for example), your auditory system (the ringing of the slot machines), and perhaps smell (the distinctive scents pumped into each casino).
    Research suggests we remember things better and retain them longer when we associate meaning to them using semantic encoding
    If you attach meaning or factual knowledge to any of this sensory input, that's called semantic encoding. For example, if you associate the Bellagio Resort and Casino in Vegas with its location on a map or the fact that the dancing fountain show takes place every 30 minutes, you're encoding the Bellagio with semantic memory.

    This is good to know because research suggests we remember things better and retain them longer when we associate meaning to them using semantic encoding.

    Cis an extremely emotional movie, concede by my own opponent. It makes you see that the more that the main character tries to escape and cower away from his responsibilities in life, the sadder and more pathetic he becomes even in his own eyes (as well as the audience's). This builds in a snowball manner throughout the movie, with almost every single aspect of the description's list of manhood traits made clear that the main character was wrong to use the remote to avoid needing and displaying.

    That sits in your memory, a typical 'boxer with some romance that ends up beating somebody up well' is not quite as clear-cut in what the message is and it doesn't semantically encode onto the brain as wlel as C does.
    Storage
    All of these little bits and pieces of information are then stored in different areas of your brain. Your neurons (the nerve cells in your brain) pass signals to each other about what you perceived, effectively "talking" with each other and building either temporary or long-lasting connections. It's that neural activity and the strength of those connections that make a memory, neuroscientists believe.

    The network of neurons in our brains are the key to storing and retrieving memories
    There are two kinds of memory: short-term and long-term. Short-term or working memory is like your brain's scratchpad. It's when your brain temporarily stores information before either dismissing it or transferring it to long-term memory—for example, remembering what you want to order for lunch before calling the takeout place. Once your food is delivered and eaten, your brain can let go of that info. Long-term memories are those memories you hold on to for a few days or many years--things like how to ride a bike or the first dinner you had with the first person you fell in love with.

    Both kinds of memories can weaken with age because the brain loses cells critical to those connections between neurons over time--but that's not inevitable. As with muscle strength, you can exercise your brain; with memory, it's "use it or lose it."
    ^ same source as before.
    Since C explores so much (both explore romance but PM does it in the typical, generic way) from workaholism to losing a woman to a man displaying more of the traits in the description, not using any kind of universal remote to avoid them, it ends up so applicable and regularly recallable throughout life.

    Recall
    And finally, to retrieve a memory, your brain "replays" or revisits the nerve pathways created when the memory was formed. Repeatedly recalling information helps strengthen those connections and your memories, which is why techniques like reviewing your notes or using flashcards help you retain information.

    However, when you remember something, it's not an exact reproduction of the first time you experienced an event or came across a fact, because your own awareness of the current situation gets mixed in with the memory. As The Human Memory explains:
    Memories are not frozen in time, and new information and suggestions may become incorporated into old memories over time. Thus, remembering can be thought of as an act of creative reimagination.
    That's also why people can have false memories, or their memories of events might change over time.
    Now that we know some of how memory works, we can use that understanding to improve our memory. We'll start with the lifestyle changes we can make, since they can improve more than just our memory, and then go over specific memorization techniques.
    Again, you don't often get into boxing situations in life unless you are such a person in such a profession. Even if you do, Rocky is going to come to mind before PM.

    ==

    toxic masculinity on top of the supposed 'good traits' and isn't clear on how precisely one should act on them.
    PM basically makes you think that violence is integral to manhood. It also makes clear that the proof he is succeeding at becoming a better man are either specifically getting a woman to love and have sex with him as well as winning a fight. C explores much more about family bonds and the spouse/ex-wife is only one of many relationships explored. In fact it also explores being both a son and a father and how the main character lacks in that.

    Even the man he 'loses to' is an honourable opponent, not a prick or jackass. It is very careful in fact to have the toxic masculinity villainised which is what his boss at work was until he got promoted to CEO.

    I will presume I don't need to define toxic masculinity for this Round

    ==

    Point 3 ~ PM is too cookie-cutter, C offers freedom

    You can't become the best male role model version of yourself by trying to mimic one dude from some movie about a boxer. That isn't how things work in life. C is way more relatable for the average guy. The way it carefully works through so many elements of being a man and how not to be is the very way it lets you flexibly use that moral lesson and go 'okay sure I'll avoid being weak, irresponsible, dishonorable and a shirker of duties' etc. It basically lets you apply what not to be and to avoid being to your life so that you get truly pushed in the right direction instead of pulled into fitting footsteps you shouldn't want to fit, since you should want to be your own person.

    ==

    PM too literally interprets the resolution
    Pro literally took a scene and said 'this shows this trait', that isn't how people learn things. You don't watch some fictional movie and go OMG the main character did this I so totally need to copy that in my own life now! You also don't tend to understand the abstract moral lesson that easily either by memorising scenes. Instead, C lets a very broad yet clear lesson sink in; don't be weak, cowardly and neglectful to those close to you. It also shows the difference between being just a workaholic that provides money for his family and being a guy who also provides masculine presence and emotional diligence, leading by regular contact and example for his children.
    Round 4
    Pro
    #7
    Con mentions toxic masculinity, so I feel this begs the question. Two questions actually.
    • What toxic masculinity is Con referring to in the movie Cinderella Man? 
    • Does Con think the main character of Cinderella Man embodies any of the traits and if so, which?
    The crucial thing to remember is that Cinderella Man is a motivational-success story. It is its own original brand; it is nothing like Rocky (Good movie btw.). Rocky is more action-based and is completely fictional.

    Cinderella Man is based on the events of the real-life boxer James J. Braddock. 
    While Rocky Balboa is a fictional character.

    Core Message
    Cinderella Man, despite its synopsis, is not a movie about boxing. Yes, boxing is very crucial to the story but it’s not its defining quality nor is it the main character’s. The main villain of the story is not the homicidal lunatic, Max Baer.

    The reason why CM is not like Rocky is because Rocky specifically focuses on boxing and using the appeal of violence to appeal to its audience, but Cinderella Man is more character-driven with more emotional appeal.

    The main villain is the poverty and the circumstances the main character finds himself in. In going through struggle and facing his adversary with courage, he develops the strength not to take life for granted and comes out stronger.

    1. PM too literally interprets the resolution, if you follow the actual movie instead of cherrypicking scenes, it's not that good at hinting at you how to become a male role model.
    But the movie does exactly that. In cultivating a mindset like Jimmy Braddock, you find yourself able to face obstacles with a sense of invincibility. 
    Rocky was a movie about a boxer in his prime looking to hone his craft. Cinderella Man is about a middle-aged boxer past his prime who is trying to rediscover himself and his passion for survival. You can’t objectively compare the two.

    “Cis an extremely emotional movie, concede by my own opponent. It makes you see that the more that the main character tries to escape and cower away from his responsibilities in life, the sadder and more pathetic he becomes even in his own eyes (as well as the audience's). This builds in a snowball manner throughout the movie, with almost every single aspect of the description's list of manhood traits made clear that the main character was wrong to use the remote to avoid needing and displaying.”
    Responsibility
    • At the start of the crisis, Jimmy willingly starves himself and gives his meal to his children, demonstrating his duty as a father.
    Jimmy consistently shows responsibility within the movie. While Click teaches you what not to be, Jimmy teaches you who to be.

    “Again, you don't often get into boxing situations in life unless you are such a person in such a profession. Even if you do, Rocky is going to come to mind before PM.”

    This is precisely why Jimmy’s motivational story is so important. You don’t have to be a boxer to take anything away from his story, he is a role model to men of all professions. 

    PM basically makes you think that violence is integral to manhood. It also makes clear that the proof he is succeeding at becoming a better man are either specifically getting a woman to love and have sex with him as well as winning a fight. C explores much more about family bonds and the spouse/ex-wife is only one of many relationships explored. In fact it also explores being both a son and a father and how the main character lacks in that.

    James J Braddock constantly avoids fights whenever possible. The movie does not encourage young men to be violent, the movie teaches men to have the strength to deal with compromising situations when violence is inevitable. Jimmy had to quit fighting and take on other jobs in order to provide for his family.

    “You can't become the best male role model version of yourself by trying to mimic one dude from some movie about a boxer. That isn't how things work in life. C is way more relatable for the average guy. The way it carefully works through so many elements of being a man and how not to be is the very way it lets you flexibly use that moral lesson and go 'okay sure I'll avoid being weak, irresponsible, dishonorable and a shirker of duties' etc. It basically lets you apply what not to be and to avoid being to your life so that you get truly pushed in the right direction instead of pulled into fitting footsteps you shouldn't want to fit, since you should want to be your own person.”

    The movie wants you to emulate Jimmy’s courage, his resilience, and his fortitude. Jimmy is a legend in the eyes of the ordinary man and that’s something to aspire to, while Michael Newman is a self-destructive loser with very little redeemable qualities. 
    More relatable? Sure.
    But inspirational? No. And inspiration is what you need to be a successful role model.

    “Pro literally took a scene and said 'this shows this trait', that isn't how people learn things. You don't watch some fictional movie and go OMG the main character did this I so totally need to copy that in my own life now! You also don't tend to understand the abstract moral lesson that easily either by memorising scenes. Instead, C lets a very broad yet clear lesson sink in; don't be weak, cowardly and neglectful to those close to you. It also shows the difference between being just a workaholic that provides money for his family and being a guy who also provides masculine presence and emotional diligence, leading by regular contact and example for his children.”

    Jimmy’s Climactic Rise
    This strike to James’s face is the hardest hit he has ever dealt with in his career and it’s only in the middle of the movie, he is still going through his crisis. 
    So, when James smiles, clearly unfazed, it sends paralyzing fear into the heart of his enemy and his audience that allows James to break his opponent’s nose and it is this moment that makes people realize that his glorious return is inevitable.

    Truly one of the most underrated moments in a movie. You will NEVER see a moment as euphoric as this in the movie Click. 

    If you want to read the story of one of the most inspirational boxers of all time next to Muhammad Ali, the best person to study is Jimmy J Braddock.:

    Con
    #8
    Toxic Masculinity
    Cindarella man is a movie that involves a lot of violence and success at said violence is equalled to being a better man and character both in terms of storyline and literal events.

    Toxic masculinity is as follows:
    What Is Toxic Masculinity?
    Toxic masculinity isn’t just about behaving like a man. Instead, it involves the extreme pressure some men may feel to act in a way that is actually harmful.

    There are many definitions of “toxic masculinity” that appear in research as well as pop culture. Some researchers have come to agree that toxic masculinity has three core components:

    1. Toughness: This is the notion that men should be physically strong, emotionally callous, and behaviorally aggressive.
    2. Antifeminity: This involves the idea that men should reject anything that is considered to be feminine, such as showing emotion or accepting help.
    3. Power: This is the assumption that men must work toward obtaining power and status (social and financial) so they can gain the respect of others.1

    Glorification of Unhealthy Habits 
    Toxic masculinity glorifies unhealthy habits. It’s the notion that “self-care is for women” and men should treat their bodies like machines by skimping on sleep, working out even when they’re injured, and pushing themselves to their physical limits. 

    In addition to pushing themselves hard physically, toxic masculinity discourages men from seeing doctors. 

    A 2011 study found that men who held the strongest beliefs about masculinity were only half as likely as men with more moderate beliefs about masculinity to get preventative health care.2 Seeing a physician for an annual physical, for example, runs contrary to some men’s beliefs about toughness.

    In addition to avoiding preventative treatment, toxic masculinity also encourages unhealthy behaviors.

    A 2007 study found that the more men conformed to masculine norms, the more likely they were to engage in risky behaviors, such as heavy drinking, using tobacco, and avoiding vegetables. In addition, they were more likely to view such risky choices as being “normal.”3

    Mental Health Stigma
    Toxic masculinity also discourages men from getting mental health treatment. Depression, anxiety, substance use issues, and mental health problems may be viewed as weaknesses.

    A 2015 study found that men who bought into traditional notions of masculinity held more of a negative attitude about seeking mental health services compared to those with more flexible gender attitudes.4
    Toxic masculinity may also stress that it’s inappropriate for men to talk about their feelings. Avoiding conversations about problems or emotions may increase feelings of isolation and loneliness

    It may also reduce men’s willingness to reach out and get help when they’re experiencing a mental health issue.

    In Cindarella man, this is the synopsis:
    James J. Braddock is an Irish-American boxer from New Jersey, formerly a light heavyweight contender, who is forced to give up boxing after breaking his hand in the ring. This is both a relief and a burden to his wife, Mae. She cannot bring herself to watch the violence of his chosen profession, yet she knows they will not have enough income without his boxing.
    As the United States enters the Great Depression, Braddock does manual labor as a longshoreman to support his family, even with his injured hand. Unfortunately, he cannot get work every day. Thanks to a last-minute cancellation by another boxer, Braddock's longtime manager and friend, Joe Gould, offers him a chance to fill in for just one night and earn cash. The fight is against the number-two contender in the world, Corn Griffin.

    Braddock stuns the boxing experts and fans with a third-round knockout of his formidable opponent. He believes that while his right hand was broken, he became more proficient with his left hand, improving his in-ring ability. Despite Mae's objections, Braddock takes up Gould's offer to return to the ring. Mae resents this attempt by Gould to profit from her husband's dangerous livelihood, until she discovers that Gould and his wife also have been devastated by hard times.

    With a shot at the heavyweight championship held by Max Baer a possibility, Braddock continues to win. Out of a sense of pride, he uses a portion of his prize money to pay back money to the government given to him while unemployed. When his rags to riches story gets out, the sportswriter Damon Runyon dubs him "The Cinderella Man", and before long Braddock comes to represent the hopes and aspirations of the American public struggling with the Depression.

    After wins against John Henry Lewis and Art Lasky, a title fight against Baer comes his way. Braddock is a 10-to-1 underdog. Baer is so destructive that the fight's promoter, James Johnston, forces both Braddock and Gould to watch a film of Baer in action, just so he can maintain later that he warned them what Braddock was up against.
    Braddock demonstrates no fear. The arrogant Baer attempts to intimidate him, even taunting Mae in public that her man might not survive. When he says this, she becomes so angry that she throws a drink at him. She is unable to attend the fight at the Madison Square Garden Bowl or even to listen to it on the radio.

    On June 13, 1935, in one of the greatest upsets in boxing history, Braddock defeats the seemingly invincible Baer to become the heavyweight champion of the world.
    An epilogue reveals that Braddock would lose his title to Joe Louis and later worked on the building of the Verrazano Bridge, owning and operating heavy machinery on the docks where he worked during the Depression, and that he and Mae used his boxing income to buy a house, where they spent the rest of their lives.

    While the 'toxic masculine' man that's more toxic ends up losing the end fight, it is important we see that Braddock is just a lesser brand of similar toxic masculinity. Beating someone up is somehow linked to his worth and for us to cheer for. This is fine, it's consensual and in a ring but what message in the sense of 'male role model' does that send? You aren't always going to win in life and what this movie completely fails to teach is how to lose and improve anyway, Click teaches that.

    In Click the guy loses everything except money, even his life. It teaches you brutally and gradually that there are things worth holding onto, such as family, that you can't quite fully measure and appreciate until you truly know what it is to lose them so take it from the movie, take it and cherish it. It's a lesson in how to be a father, a son, a man of a household. It teaches you to appreciate your spouse, your children and your parent(s) before it's too late. It teaches you that every time you spend wasting and avoiding hardships, your cowardice is going to brutally punish you in the end and at the very least you're jsut a poser that's actually a very pathetic man deep down.

    Cindarella Man teaches that the solution to problems is to beat someone up and to 'win'. Notice how no part of that synopsis says he reassures his wife, it says she stayed scared, sad and faithless in her man and unable to watch the fight. That means his solution was just to win and use the money to improve their life but that is such a superficial solution, ironically that is similar to what the Click character would try to do but just would 'fast forward' the fight and training before it.

    Also, let's talk about respect to women and advice:
    Despite Mae's objections, Braddock takes up Gould's offer to return to the ring. Mae resents this attempt by Gould to profit from her husband's dangerous livelihood, until she discovers that Gould and his wife also have been devastated by hard times.
    The entire movie is glorifying ignoring your wife's advice and feelings on matters, whereas Click teaches him he should truly have listened more and cared more.

    Cindarella Man also is just too much like other movies, especially Rocky. It is hardly going to 'teach you how to be a man' in any sense. It will be a fine enough watch and then you get on with your life, Click really sits in your memory because it's so niche and impactful in a unique way.
    Round 5
    Pro
    #9
    Overview
    • Showed that Jimmy Braddock (Cinderella Man) embodies all of the 7 traits. 
    • Proved that Cinderella Man is a motivational-success story, argument remains uncontested. 
    • Stated that Cinderella Man is more inspiring than Click. 
    • Proved that Cinderella Man is a real story, so it is unlike Rocky in anyway. This argument is dropped by Con. 
    • Showed that the main character of Click is an example of someone you don’t want to be. 
    Fundamentally, the MC of Con’s movie, Michael Newman isn’t that much of a likable guy. My character, Jimmy Braddock, is the ideal man. He is a father, husband, warrior and athlete.  His personality traits are not only admirable, but attainable. 

    Rebuttals
    Toxic Masculinity
    Cindarella man is a movie that involves a lot of violence and success at said violence is equalled to being a better man and character both in terms of storyline and literal events.
    The only violence that takes place is in the ring, and it’s strictly business. As pointed out in Round 1, all of Jimmy’s 7 best qualities were displayed outside the ring with no fighting involved.

    The boxing in the context of inspiration is more metaphorical. 

    While the 'toxic masculine' man that's more toxic ends up losing the end fight, it is important we see that Braddock is just a lesser brand of similar toxic masculinity. Beating someone up is somehow linked to his worth and for us to cheer for. This is fine, it's consensual and in a ring but what message in the sense of 'male role model' does that send? You aren't always going to win in life and what this movie completely fails to teach is how to lose and improve anyway, Click teaches that.
    In the last round, I pointed out that boxing is important but it isn’t Jimmy’s defining quality. 

    Jimmy isn’t some dumb brute, he is a complex human being with a wonderful personality. He’s reserved and treats every man with respect and is never domineering, but he commands respect. 

    Cindarella Man teaches that the solution to problems is to beat someone up and to 'win'. Notice how no part of that synopsis says he reassures his wife, it says she stayed scared, sad and faithless in her man and unable to watch the fight. That means his solution was just to win and use the money to improve their life but that is such a superficial solution, ironically that is similar to what the Click character would try to do but just would 'fast forward' the fight and training before it.
    • This was common at this time. This was no different than wives worrying about their husband going to war. Jimmy has served in the military, so add that onto my point. 
    • Jimmy has to fight Max so that his kids can grow up healthy and don’t starve. 
    • The boxing is symbolic for fighting against problems and overcoming them.
    If Jimmy didn’t have to fight, then he wouldn’t. But the money and the glory was the only way to feed and take care of his kids. There’s no superficiality here. When asked in this scene why he’s fighting, his reply is that he’s fighting for milk. 


    The fame is no longer relevant at this point because Jimmy is putting his life on the line. 

    The entire movie is glorifying ignoring your wife's advice and feelings on matters, whereas Click teaches him he should truly have listened more and cared more.
    Jimmy went too far to turn back at this point. He considers his wife’s advice, but as a man with assertiveness, leadership, and responsibility, he makes his decision and commits to it. 

    In the end, he beats Max Baer and he and his family are rewarded for it. 


    Con
    #10
    I will firstly iterate the crucial points I've made before clarifying why I feel Pro hasn't really tackled my attacks or side of the debate.

    1. Where Click is so different to other movies and memorable, Cinderella Man is just another Rocky or generic manly-instead-of-womanly romance movie if we ignore the boxing. It doesn't really hit you hard and alter you to want to be a male role model how Click does.
    2. Where Click teaches you to be empathatic, to care for your family and spouse as well as take responsibility as a man, Cinderella Man teaches you to ignore what your gf/wife wants and says and just get out there, beat people up and earn money that way. While both are different sides of being a man, only one of these 2 is explicitly linked to being a male role model no matter how you interpret it.
    3. Click teaches you to endure the bad things in life, Cinderella Man is vague on this and seems to just suggest fighting as a solution if anything (toxic masculinity, similar to point 2).
    Based on those 3 points, I think Click genuinely changes boys and men that watch it to actually be more responsible and caring, Cinderella Man is just another boxing-romance movie to most, it isn't really going to make you suddenly want to be that man unless somehow you're a boxer or fighter in a similar situation.

    This means that in both terms of memorable impact and the actual lessons taught, Click defeats Cinderella Man. My opponent just tells you that there happens to be a scene or moment in the movie where the main character does certain things but that's not the same as you then wanting to be that character and really letting the moral of the story sink in (there is not a real moral of the story other than don't give up and try to win a boxing match even if your spouse is totally against it).

    People will walk away from Cindarella Man either forgetting it or becoming aggressive, violent men potentially. People will walk away from Click realising not to solely care about money and success but also family and probably friendships too.