Instigator / Pro
0
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4138
Anakin Skywalker is the Ebenezer Scrooge of Star Wars
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
0
1709
rating
565
debates
68.23%
won
Description
Pro argues the position that of all characters in cinema, Anakin Skywalker most resembles Scrooge in terms of a storytelling perspective and character arc.
Rules:
1. It won't be enough for Con to argue that Anakin isn't like Scrooge, Con will have to choose their own fictional character that they feel is more relatable to Anakin than Scrooge. They will have to choose this character within Round 1. The character has to have been on screen at least once. (A movie, or a TV show are examples.) The rules do not disallow characters from animation.
2. On-balance, so consider this an extension of rule 1.
3. One forfeit is the loss of a conduct point. Two forfeits are an auto-loss.
4. Two sources minimum as the bare minimum for the shared BOP.
Just to clarify, Con isn't arguing which character most resembles Scrooge but which character most resembles Anakin in terms of a storytelling perspective and character arc.
Definitions:
Character Arc- The transformation or inner journey of a character over the course of a story.
Storytelling- The activity of telling or writing stories.
Perspective- A particular attitude toward or way of regarding something; a point of view.
Round 1
Their Tragic Past: Both Anakin and Scrooge started off happy-go-lucky and carefree in their youth. From Anakin’s tough life on Tatooine to being separated from his mother to train to be a Jedi.
Similarly, Scrooge was sent away from his family and forced to attend boarding school. The cold disdain from his father is the same emotional depth Anakin feels from the Jedi.
The Characters’ Dark Turn: Eventually, Scrooge’s greed would overshadow his love for Belle and would inevitably drive her away.
Anakin’s lust for the Dark Side would also cause Padme to reject him, ultimately sealing his fate as Darth Vader.
The Ghost of Christmas Past: Obi-Wan is Anakin’s ghost. When he confronts his old master for the last time in A New Hope, he strikes him with his saber causing him to mysteriously vanish.
Scrooge makes the ghost vanish by concealing the apparition in a container.
My chosen character: Walter White (WW) from the series Breaking Bad (BB).
I am arguing that WW is more similar to Anakin Skywalker (AS) than Ebenezer Scrooge (ES). I would like to emphasise how disappointed I am with Pro's Round 1, I was truly expecting a tough battle here.
Anyway, let's begin with a major similarity that ES completely lacks; an alias.
SPOILERS ALERT FOR THIS WHOLE DEBATE
WW has Heisenberg (H) like AS has Darth Vader (DV). The differences go far beyond just having that alias. WW becomes H when he needs to intimidate, do business and deal with people on the 'dark side' of his life, the drug and gangster world. AS becomes DV when he needs to intimidate and do business with the dark side of the force too but perhaps one can argue WW is different in that he remained known as WW to the 'light side'... Except this dissonance is hardly severe considering ES is known as (mister) Scrooge or Ebenezer to essentially everybody and is known to be a selfish, miserly individual to all.
Alias aside, the very journey WW goes along is not only so similar to AS in that they share a transition from good to evil ruthlessness but that they both come out of said transition and end up dying in order to protect their own sons from the dark sides in their life. In actual fact, the way WW dies at the very ending with his son threatened and his wife betraying him is both a rip-off of the ending of Revenge of the Sith and the ending of Return of the Jedi in one, the only part truly different is his wife doesn't die.
Where AS literally kills his wife in that scene, WW very swiftly, once he's embraced his inner demons and the drug trade, becomes an abuser to his wife. He verbally abuses her and actually grabs her almost raping her in a truly horrific scene. Even more interestingly for this debate, the way Padme and Skylar are portrayed is intentionally cunning and made to help us empathise with the sociopathic male spouse in that we see the women as irritating and disloyal where really they're both just being quite reasonable in the face of an unreliable sociopathic spouse losing his shit and embracing an evil way of life. It is also extremely important to note that Scrooge fell in love and was turned good by his lover, Belle, whereas both Padme and Skylar embrace their lover's darkness to some degree while resenting it in other ways. Belle doesn't whatsoever stand for Scrooge's ways and directly turned him better, the sons not the spouses turned WW and AS good, both by what they say and do towards the endings and the fact that at the very bitter end they are having evil people try to kill their sons and need to die to stop it happening (AS literally does as DV whereas WW has to die in a more indirect way).
It is also essential to notice the parallel of having loyalty as part of their personality. WW and AS both, even when turned totally corrupt into H and DV respectivley, have loyalty as their main redeeming feature. They are loyal not only to their family in ways but to their buddies in the drug world. Like DV is unusually a man of his word in the dark side, H is unusually known to rarely trick and cheat in the meth world. This is possibly because they both have high-functioning autism, which is a theory I've had about both of them and something Scrooge may also have but less obviously. Scrooge was known to care so little for his workers he never gave them time off or showed mercy and as the story progresses he shows more and more. DV and H are like Scrooge's starting point while AS and WW began caring and concerned with people.
DV and WW are both known for secrecy, alias aside, they lie to their children about a lot leaving them in the dark until their life is threatened when parts seem to slip out. While DV more actively opens up to his son about it, WW definitely is closer to that than ES. ES has no secrets, like none at all, which is combined with the lack of richness to his weirdness that I also think is a point in my favour. The reason I think WW and AS are high-functioning autistic is that before they went weirder and evil, they were already weird and obsessed over their niche interests, in Anakin's case it was more robotics oriented and shifts specifically to the force and war strategy while for WW it was chemistry which he maintained throughout.
ES is all about money start-to-end. Let me explain what I mean, even when ES becomes 'good' he does not display a depth or power to actually show kindness beyond lending out wealth and gifts. In my opinion, he is actually a mild sociopath who is capable of some degree of empathy but not a natural, innate kind more of a constructed sort that runs on a logic of direct, blatant generosity he can measure. For AS and WW, generosity and the concept of being benevolent was there innately within them but they lost it the more they indulged into the darkness within them and it took their sons being threatened to bring things into perspective.
DV and H share a merciful killing trait. If and when DV and H have to handle people either to make an example of or retributively attack, they do it swiftly, avoiding torture and 'toying with their prey' the only exception DV made was with his own son as deep down he never wanted to kill Luke and I even would argue he intentionally let Luke cut off his hand (not intending that directly to happen but intentionally avoiding doing offensive moves ruthlessly to incapacitate Luke). The fact ES has no son is already a glaring problem as that entire element of storyline is not there for him, he does have a nephew that factors in but barely and nowhere near the same way.
Similarly to how Anakin feels oppressed and choked out (inside joke if you know SW) the longer that he spends under the Jedi's strict, rigid regime, WW feels this for his life as a chemistry teacher and the cancer diagnosis hardly was the main factor at all, he didn't earn the money for a shot at living longer, he did it out of pride as he didn't want to take from generous relatives and friends. Both of them had a boredom, a feeling of lacking a freedom and ambition they yearned for. Then, both of them realised in their new life they were just as enslaved and oppressed. This culminates very literally in the sense of Palpatine for AS and Gus Fring for WW but is there in subtle ways too throughout, as both grow miserable and frustrated with the very same rigidity of their old life present still and now the added harshness of their new 'gangsta' life. ES doesn't even remotely share this journey.
Now, I know that the ending wasn't to do with Fring but that's not important. Gus Fring and WW have an extremely similar relationship to the later interactions between Palpatine/Sidious and AS. In fact, ironically, even Fring himself threatened to not only kill his son but even WW's infant daughter if he tried to pull some shit. This was all there, threatened and then as H, WW operates to pull an extremely risky proxy murder-suicide (it was super risky because all it would take is his enemy's enemy to decide to instead side against WW and not commit suicide in a kamikaze explosion).
The last point I want to make is a bit controversial for some hyper feminists but I actually think they'd agree with me. AS and WW were manly men, they got their women aroused, feeling feminine and truly respecting them as men at least while things were good. Even while things turned bad, Padme and Skylar didn't turn on their man, they really wanted to see the best in him and help their respective men thrive. Belle was a hardline sassy lady and had Scrooge tried to stay as his selfish, crooked self, she'd easily without qualms have ditched him. She wore the pants in that relationship to a large extent and he was the one truly feeling fulfilled by supporting her and being guided by her. It was a very different dynamic, he was not a dominant man deep down and had a very different type of chemistry with Belle than AS and WW had with their somewhat submissive women. I want to note that submissive doesn't mean the woman can't be bratty, that isn't a defining feature of either a domme, a sub or a vanilla woman. What is key is the chemistry and natural way of who follows who, is led by who and enjoys being in that position by default. Padme and Skylar both could be bossy when needed, Padme was a damn princess or even queen of sorts, I mean that deep down she didn't want that role in her personal love life and neither did Skylar, Belle definitely did to some degree.
Round 2
Con expressed some frustration with my brief post in Round 1. I kept my first argument short because there are currently 5 rounds and I wanted to save some of my arguments so I can divide them piece by piece. I’ll lay out how my plan is going to go.:
- Round 1 (Introductory Stage, introduce a few comparisons.)
- Round 2 (Constructive arguments, some rebuttals.)
- Round 3 (Few more constructive arguments, more rebuttals.)
- Round 4 (Rebuttals only.)
- Round 5 (Closing argument.)
Personalities: Both men are career-oriented, ambitious, and romantic. Another trait they both share in common is they are too hard-headed. They’ve shown that one of their weakest traits so far is their stubbornness. Both Anakin and Ebeneezer started out extroverted, but when they transition to become the worst version of themselves, they grow introverted and antisocial. Anakin (When becomes Darth Vader) and Scrooge (When he turns into the hermit/recluse that he is.)
Common Themes: While not necessarily manifesting in the same way, the two characters would fall victim to very similar circumstances. Death is no stranger to Ebeneezer or Anakin. Scrooge’s mother died during childbirth which is the same fate that took Padme’s life. Both Anakin and Scrooge would grow to internalize the guilt of their mothers’ death, but Scrooge’s reasoning was because his father constantly held it against him.
Anakin is given the ability to see into the future and it is at this time that Emperor Palpatine is masquerading as the Ghost of Christmas Present. In A Christmas Carol, the Ghost warns Scrooge that his employee’s son will die of an illness if Scrooge does not take action. In the Prequel trilogy of Star Wars, Palpatine sends dreams to Anakin, forcing him to witness the death of Padme with the fate of their offspring unknown.
Palpatine tells Anakin of Darth Plageuis, The Wise and his ability to save people from dying.
- The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise HD Star Wars Episode III Revenge of The Sith - YouTube
- Family time Disney a Christmas carol | 2009 | 14/20 bob cratchit and his family 4k - YouTube
Similarly, the Ghost of Christmas Present shows Scrooge the state of Bob’s family and warns him of Tiny Tim’s death if he doesn’t intervene.
Jacob Marley: The catalyst for Scrooge’s transition into the greedy scumbag he became was his business partner, Jacob Marley. The Emperor plays several of these roles, and Jacob Marley is definitely one of them. Jacob had an indifference to mankind and a Social Darwinistic philosophy that would eventually come to be shared by Scrooge.
The same way The Rule of Two would be followed by Darth Vader and Sidious, as well as their contempt for the Jedi and shunning those too weak to defend themselves.
The Concept of The Twins: Luke and Leia are the twins and children of Darth Vader. The twin spirits in A Christmas Carol, Ignorance and Want are the metaphorical symbols of humanity’s worst kind. The spirit tells Scrooge they are his children and tells him to beware of them both.
“This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased.”
This scene in the STW universe takes place in Empire Strikes Back, when the Emperor is telling Darth Vader that he has a son and that he could destroy them.
Their Misery: Both Darth Vader and Ebenezer Scrooge intentionally put themselves in situations where their body has to endure pain. Scrooge will not allow heat in his workplace and tolerates the cold, despite the danger it poses to a man of his age. He lives in conditions that enhance his suffering and minimizes the amount of money he wastes.
Darth Vader also prefers to stay in a constant state of pain. The belief is that pain strengthens his connection to the Dark Side and rewards him with focus and discipline. The ideologies that discomfort yields reward is shared by these two.
Workplace Mentality and Reputation: Scrooge is very abusive to his employees, especially Bob Cratchet. (Admiral Piett in STW.) Darth Vader force-chokes his subordinates to death whenever they fail him and is unrelenting, even when they apologize.
Scrooge is indifferent to Bob’s situation but eventually warms up to him in the end as does Vader with Piett. It is an example where two harsh bosses bond with their most loyal subjects.
Darth Vader has a reputation which inspires fear in The Empire. Scrooge also terrifies people because of his cold and antisocial personality. From the people who are usually most scared of Scrooge, it is usually children.
Rebuttals:
“WW has Heisenberg (H) like AS has Darth Vader (DV). WW becomes H when he needs to intimidate, do business and deal with people on the 'dark side' of his life, the drug and gangster world. AS becomes DV when he needs to intimidate and do business with the dark side of the force too but perhaps one can argue WW is different in that he remained known as WW to the 'light side'... ”
Anakin didn’t become Darth Vader for the sake of intimidating his enemies. This was just the outcome. Anakin was already very intimidating as a Jedi before his turn to the dark side because of his unorthodox methods and aggressive dueling style. Contrast that with Obi-Wan’s more reserved and collected nature, and his defensive style. Anakin was everything the Jedi should have been but was what they were not.
“Where AS literally kills his wife in that scene, WW very swiftly, once he's embraced his inner demons and the drug trade, becomes an abuser to his wife. He verbally abuses her and actually grabs her almost raping her in a truly horrific scene. Even more interestingly for this debate, the way Padme and Skylar are portrayed is intentionally cunning and made to help us empathise with the sociopathic male spouse in that we see the women as irritating and disloyal where really they're both just being quite reasonable in the face of an unreliable sociopathic spouse losing his shit and embracing an evil way of life. It is also extremely important to note that Scrooge fell in love and was turned good by his lover, Belle, whereas both Padme and Skylar embrace their lover's darkness to some degree while resenting it in other ways. Belle doesn't whatsoever stand for Scrooge's ways and directly turned him better, the sons not the spouses turned WW and AS good, both by what they say and do towards the endings and the fact that at the very bitter end they are having evil people try to kill their sons and need to die to stop it happening (AS literally does as DV whereas WW has to die in a more indirect way).”
Anakin’s abuse towards his wife was momentary and an impulsive act of rage (Doesn’t justify it.) while Walter’s abuse is more deliberate and repetitive. And Anakin has never sexually abused Padme, his abuse was violence and brutality.
For context, Anakin has just killed a lot of people at this point to gain powers because he thought his wife was going to die and his plan was he could save her life with this newfound knowledge. When she arrives to confront him about the crimes he committed, he tries to deny it, and she tells him he’s going down a path she can’t follow.
When Obi-Wan comes out of hiding (He had aboard the ship without Padme knowing he came with.), Anakin is led to believe that Padme set him up to be ambushed by Obi-Wan, and reacts by nearly force-choking her to death.
While Scrooge and Belle’s break-up is not nearly as violent and tragic at this scene, it is still the same theme. Belle senses Scrooge’s greed has become too much and she abandons him to pursue her own path. Padme also tells Anakin she won’t follow his path to The Dark Side.
“DV and H share a merciful killing trait. , they do it swiftly, avoiding torture and 'toying with their prey' The fact ES has no son is already a glaring problem as that entire element of storyline is not there for him, he does have a nephew that factors in but barely and nowhere near the same way.”
Are you kidding me?
Darth Vader LOVES torturing people. This psychopath tortured his own daughter with a Truth Serum device, put her boyfriend through pain to bait Luke, and even froze his daughter’s boyfriend in Carbonite while he was alive.
A lot of his victims on-screen are incompetent Imperial Officers that he kills off quickly, but he relishes in the pain they experience within those moments. When Admiral Motti mouths off to Lord Vader, he force-chokes him until Tarkin demands his release from Vader’s wrath.
The thing about Ebeneezer’s nephew and Darth Vader’s son is an interesting point. I’m not responding to that now because I’m saving this comparison for the next round.
“The last point I want to make is a bit controversial for some hyper feminists but I actually think they'd agree with me. AS and WW were manly men, they got their women aroused, feeling feminine and truly respecting them as men at least while things were good. . Belle was a hardline sassy lady and had Scrooge tried to stay as his selfish, crooked self, she'd easily without qualms have ditched him. She wore the pants in that relationship to a large extent and he was the one truly feeling fulfilled by supporting her and being guided by her.
While Anakin displays toxic masculinity, I don’t think “manly-man” is what comes to mind when you hear the name ‘Anakin Skywalker.’
Perhaps, if you’re talking about Clone Wars Anakin, sure. The Prequel trilogy Anakin in Attack of The Clones and Revenge of The Sith isn’t what I would describe as feminine. He’s more boyish than manly. He resembles Luke in that regard.
His voice and speech is whiny. Mostly monotone, and not deep. He isn’t rugged or scruffy. He has no facial hair. There’s nothing polarizing about him. Were it not for his super-powers and combat ability, he is your standard pretty-boy from a college frat.
Anakin is no Han Solo, he’s not Obi-Wan, and he’s certainly no Mace Windu.
Firstly, he didn't know Leia was his daughter, you may not realise this but Anakin never ever got to see that there was a twin, he thought he had only a son and later learned a rumour of a daughter that he didn't know the identity of. Even so, there is a major point here of fundamental contention:
Is Anakin and his Vader self directly sadistic and relishing in the agony he causes or is it merely means-to-an-end? That interrogation droid that went for Han Solo and Leia is not at all about pleasure to Vader. Vader probably enjoys people fearing him, a trait Walter White develops as Heisenberg too (his most famous quote is 'I am the danger'). Fear and pain are not identical, he doesn't prolong kills, he doesn't toy with his prey. The only time he ever did this was cutting off Luke's hand and some of his forearm and letting Luke live, when instead he could have killed Luke. That's because somehow perhaps as they're both force-sensitive, he worked out that Luke was his son. He did not know Leia was his daughter, he only refers to her as Luke's sister any time he references her and there is no indication at all he knew Leia was his daughter. The argument 'he didn't kill Leia' is not really valid, he was a reasonable tyrant very ironically. His Anakin Skywalker self was more ruthless and killed an entire village of sand 'Tusken Raider' in revenge for them killing his mother. He needs to be truly deeply angry and that fits Walter White perfectly. Both are ruthless when enraged but they don't toy with their prey. The torture Pro refers to is literally to extract information, nothing more.
That aside, Walter White's abuse to Skyler (not Skylar, I spelled it wrong, my bad it's atypical spelling for that name) is also momentary and impulsive each time.
here is the very upsetting scene. Whether or not this is rape is down to interpretation of how consent and escalation of a situation (vs when it deescalates) works, clearly she forgives him to some degree after. This is definitely a sexual assault, how we define actual 'rape' is the only question. don't worry there is no direct porn or nudity in that scene, it's upsetting. Please don't watch if too young or sensitive for such a scene.
The problems Pro suggests are just not enough at all to dissuade from what I said.
Pro hasn't even begun to address how Scrooge lacks the similarities stated, Scrooge is not even remotely to his storyline what Anakin was to Star Wars. Anakin is a main antagonist, Scrooge is irrefutably a protagonist and Walter White is something in between the two.
Round 3
I believe Con lost track of what he was doing here. He's supposed to be strengthening the comparison between his character and Anakin Skywalker, not elevating the gap.
Like what was even the point of posting this? Lmao.
To illustrate how Walter White is a sexual predator and Anakin Skywalker isn't?
I doubt many people are going to watch this, just given the context. Anyways.
Is Anakin and his Vader self directly sadistic and relishing in the agony he causes or is it merely means-to-an-end? That interrogation droid that went for Han Solo and Leia is not at all about pleasure to Vader. Vader probably enjoys people fearing him, a trait Walter White develops as Heisenberg too (his most famous quote is 'I am the danger'). Fear and pain are not identical, he doesn't prolong kills, he doesn't toy with his prey.
Vader literally levitates Obi-Wan and intentionally ignites a fire and scorches his old master as retribution for his defeat on Mustafar.
Vader also toyed with Reva before dispatching her like she was nothing.
Contentions
Their Redemptive Arc: Luke Skywalker is the Fred to Darth Vader's Scrooge.
Fred tries multiple times to develop his relationship with his uncle Scrooge, even inviting him over for dinner several times. Scrooge is constantly rejecting this invitation. In the same way, Luke is constantly making attempts to invite Vader to join him on the Light Side of The Force. To which Vader rejects.
It isn't until the end that both Vader and Scrooge repeal their darkness and accept the light. It is this way that they both eventually find peace.
The Hooded Figure: The Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come is who ultimately shows Scrooge's fate is ultimately going to be a dark one and it is his last chance to turn back. The scene in Return of The Jedi on the second Death Star is the final confrontation where Luke Skywalker is fighting The Emperor to save the soul of Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader and Scrooge finally build up the courage to be better men and after the end of the hooded figure, they have fundamentally changed.
Scrooge's original ending would have doomed him to an afterlife of a spirit in chains, much like Jacob Marley. When Anakin finally dies, having ended the terror, he is given the option to join Obi-Wan in the afterlife as a Force Ghost with eternal peace.
Conclusion:
Since my arguments from Round 1 like the Tragic Past, Dark Turn, and the Ghost of Christmas Present's symbol remain uncontested, I'll just extend them for now.
In-fact, extend all of my contentions from Round 2 as well.
The debate is about who the character is to the story and overall, specific nitpickings are immoral for both sides to hone in on.
The fact that Walter White became more gradually, over 8 long seasons, a rough, cold man to his wife and Anakin took 2 movies to go through the same journey, meaning a hell of a lot less screentime, doesn't factor into the parallel I made.
Both turned good due to the love of their sons, both had their embracing of darkness reflected onto their relationship with their wives. Scrooge lacked these aspects entirely. If anything, Scrooge had the absolute opposite journey, he became good to have any hope of winning his woman back who was firm in her principles in ways Padme and Skyler at first definitely weren't. Both Padme and Skyler loved their men too much to see how evil their men were turning until later on when they both were in an unwinnable situation pretty much as their men were too far gone. For Padme that was literally confronting her man and getting killed by him letting her live just enough to give birth, for Skyler it was partaking in money laundering (at first by accident opening a gas station business or whatever, but then she realises it and hardcore runs it, even siphoning money herself to a fund for their son). Belle is nothing like this with Scrooge and his crooked ways, also I don't get what Pro is talking about, Scrooge doesn't go on a linear journey from good guy to bad, he actually goes on the opposite journey and the ghost of the past barely looks at Scrooge's childhood, it only helps him see he's been such a neglectful prick to people in his life when he was already an adult.
==
Vader literally levitates Obi-Wan and intentionally ignites a fire and scorches his old master as retribution for his defeat on Mustafar.Vader also toyed with Reva before dispatching her like she was nothing.
So, that's a brand new scene I wasn't aware of and doesn't add up to Vader's MO usually.
I will bring a rebuttal to this very easily, that was a severe anomaly and even that doesn't match Scrooge. Scrooge goes from accidentally being so ruthless as he's so oblivious to the agony of others around him and how harsh he's being, to being intentionally as good as he always thought he was being. Scrooge fundamentally was sadistic by mistake, he didn't really enjoy it. That said, all three are vengeful so that fits all three of their's profiles.
I have never seen Scrooge actually be involved much at all with violence or killing, that entire level of conflict is absent, making it hard to compare. Walter White also has an explosive anger and hurts people due to it. Like what is the point you're making? One scene where Vader breaks his MO is suddenly proof of everything I said being wrong? Vader rarely toys with his prey, same with Heisenberg. Scrooge is just a different breed of personality, firstly he's by-the-book rule abiding and secondly he really didn't notice how much pain he caused others, Walter White and Anakin actually notice it as they turn evil.
==
Their Redemptive Arc: Luke Skywalker is the Fred to Darth Vader's Scrooge.
Right... Sure... It wasn't the ghosts that changed him or Belle, it was his nephew who is literally a low ranking support character in the story. It was actually his workers, spouse and ghosts giving him visions that changed him.
The Hooded Figure: The Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come is who ultimately shows Scrooge's fate is ultimately going to be a dark one and it is his last chance to turn back. The scene in Return of The Jedi on the second Death Star is the final confrontation where Luke Skywalker is fighting The Emperor to save the soul of Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader and Scrooge finally build up the courage to be better men and after the end of the hooded figure, they have fundamentally changed.
The ghost doesn't even remotely threaten Fred or anybody at all. The ghost doesn't even utter one single word or represent his dark side, it's actually a hope at good. Gus Fring is way, way more paralleled to Darth Sidious than this one ghost is that appears in a few scenes.
Walter White also changed only at the very last minute but similar to Vader he changed when it was all too late and ends up dead and exhausted in an extremely similar end scene, Scrooge lives happiliy after his redemption, meaning it's a totally different tone.
Scrooge's original ending would have doomed him to an afterlife of a spirit in chains, much like Jacob Marley. When Anakin finally dies, having ended the terror, he is given the option to join Obi-Wan in the afterlife as a Force Ghost with eternal peace.
By that you mean he stays unconscious and has no awareness whatsoever, basically identical to an atheist death. That's what becoming one with the force actually does to you essentially, you lose your identity and it's based on Buddhist Nirvana.
Nirvāṇa (/nɪərˈvɑːnə/ neer-VAH-nə, /-ˈvænə/ -VAN-ə, /nɜːr-/ nur-;[1] Sanskrit: निर्वाण nirvāṇa [nɪɽʋaːɳɐ]; Pali: nibbāna; Prakrit: ṇivvāṇa; literally, "blown out", as in an oil lamp[2]) is a concept in Indian religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism) that represents the ultimate state of soteriological release, the liberation from duḥkha, suffering, and saṃsāra, the cycle of birth and rebirth.[3][web 1][4]
In Indian religions, nirvana is synonymous with moksha and mukti.[note 1] All Indian religions assert it to be a state of perfect quietude, freedom, highest happiness as well as the liberation from attachment and worldly suffering and the ending of samsara, the round of existence.[6][7] However, non-Buddhist and Buddhist traditions describe these terms for liberation differently.[8] In Hindu philosophy, it is the union of or the realization of the identity of Atman with Brahman, depending on the Hindu tradition.[9][10][11] In Jainism, nirvana is also the soteriological goal, representing the release of a soul from karmic bondage and samsara.[12] In the Buddhist context, nirvana refers to realization of non-self and emptiness, marking the end of rebirth by stilling the fires that keep the process of rebirth going.[8][13][14] To achieve this status, one has to get rid of three psychological evils – Raga (greed, desire), Dwesha (anger) and Moha (delusion).
There are two stages in nirvana, one in life, and one final nirvana upon death; the former is imprecise and general, the latter is precie and specific.[76] The nirvana-in-life marks the life of a monk who has attained complete release from desire and suffering but still has a body, name and life. The nirvana-after-death, also called nirvana-without-substrate, is the complete cessation of everything, including consciousness and rebirth.[76] This main distinction is between the extinguishing of the fires during life, and the final "blowing out" at the moment of death:[77][quote 7]
- Sa-upādisesa-nibbāna (Pali; Sanskrit sopadhiśeṣa-nirvāṇa), "nirvana with remainder", "nirvana with residue."[77] Nirvana is attained during one's life, when the fires are extinguished.[80] There is still the "residue" of the five skandhas, and a "residue of fuel", which however is not "burning".[77][quote 8] Nirvana-in-this-life is believed to result in a transformed mind with qualities such as happiness,[note 10] freedom of negative mental states,[quote 9] peacefulness[quote 10] and non-reactiveness.[quote 11]
- An-up ādisesa-nibbāna (Pali; Sanskrit nir-upadhiśeṣa-nirvāṇa), "nirvana without remainder," "nirvana without residue". This is the final nirvana, or parinirvana or "blowing out" at the moment of death, when there is no fuel left.[80][quote 12]
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Scrooge involved a lot of Christian theology in it, his battle was blatantly to become a man of god and the way he behaved was very christian-like. He gets a chance to end up in heaven instead of hell, essentially with the ghost of the future basically being like HADES NOT A DEMENTOR FROM HARRY POTTER LMAO!!!!
Walter White at the end is also seen to be at peace, he realised there was no way out of the 'dark side' of his life while he was alive.
Round 4
The Supernatural Element
- The major factor why Walter White and Scrooge are dissimilar is mainly because of the supernatural element. Even in A Christmas Carol, Scrooge's actions are being guided by an invisible force. But there are no supernatural forces present in the universe Walter White exists in.
- In Star Wars, the Force is what is guiding Anakin's actions as well. His ultimate objective was to eliminate the Sith, but the Force didn't necessarily need him to be good in order for him to do this.
Just to reiterate that Anakin and both Scrooge become spirits living in peace when they pass. Scrooge's love for his nephew resembles Anakin's love for his son.The fact that Walter White became more gradually, over 8 long seasons, a rough, cold man to his wife and Anakin took 2 movies to go through the same journey, meaning a hell of a lot less screentime, doesn't factor into the parallel I made.Both turned good due to the love of their sons, both had their embracing of darkness reflected onto their relationship with their wives. Scrooge lacked these aspects entirely. If anything, Scrooge had the absolute opposite journey, he became good to have any hope of winning his woman back who was firm in her principles in ways Padme and Skyler at first definitely weren't. Both Padme and Skyler loved their men too much to see how evil their men were turning until later on when they both were in an unwinnable situation pretty much as their men were too far gone. For Padme that was literally confronting her man and getting killed by him letting her live just enough to give birth, for Skyler it was partaking in money laundering (at first by accident opening a gas station business or whatever, but then she realises it and hardcore runs it, even siphoning money herself to a fund for their son). Belle is nothing like this with Scrooge and his crooked ways, also I don't get what Pro is talking about, Scrooge doesn't go on a linear journey from good guy to bad, he actually goes on the opposite journey and the ghost of the past barely looks at Scrooge's childhood, it only helps him see he's been such a neglectful prick to people in his life when he was already an adult.
When we're first introduced to Darth Vader in the OG trilogy, we know nothing of his past as Anakin Skywalker and it's only ever alluded to or implied by Obi-Wan and Yoda.
Which is the same way we're introduced to Ebeneezer Scrooge. We don't get to see what they were like in their past until the Star Wars Prequel trilogy and until the Ghost of Christmas Past shows us what Scrooge used to be like.
Neither Anakin nor Scrooge had to be scumbags, they inevitably chose to be.
So, that's a brand new scene I wasn't aware of and doesn't add up to Vader's MO usually.I will bring a rebuttal to this very easily, that was a severe anomaly and even that doesn't match Scrooge. Scrooge goes from accidentally being so ruthless as he's so oblivious to the agony of others around him and how harsh he's being, to being intentionally as good as he always thought he was being. Scrooge fundamentally was sadistic by mistake, he didn't really enjoy it. That said, all three are vengeful so that fits all three of their's profiles.I have never seen Scrooge actually be involved much at all with violence or killing, that entire level of conflict is absent, making it hard to compare. Walter White also has an explosive anger and hurts people due to it. Like what is the point you're making? One scene where Vader breaks his MO is suddenly proof of everything I said being wrong? Vader rarely toys with his prey, same with Heisenberg. Scrooge is just a different breed of personality, firstly he's by-the-book rule abiding and secondly he really didn't notice how much pain he caused others, Walter White and Anakin actually notice it as they turn evil.
Both Anakin and Scrooge have purged themselves of their empathy and sympathy for others when they fully commit themselves to the people they have decided to become.
They are both eternally indifferent to the suffering of people and have a misery that is self-inflicted.
Right... Sure... It wasn't the ghosts that changed him or Belle, it was his nephew who is literally a low ranking support character in the story. It was actually his workers, spouse and ghosts giving him visions that changed him.
Scrooge had a soft spot for his nephew that was deeply imbedded into him from his love for his sister. In the same way that Vader's love for Luke was because of Padme.
All the ghosts did was bring this side of Scrooge out, but it was always there. The Ghost of Christmas Present is the one who shows Scrooge how his nephew is celebrating Christmas and it triggers feelings of nostalgia.
In that same way, Obi-Wan intentionally setting up Luke to meet Vader is what starts Vader's turn back to the Light Side.
The ghost doesn't even remotely threaten Fred or anybody at all. The ghost doesn't even utter one single word or represent his dark side, it's actually a hope at good. Gus Fring is way, way more paralleled to Darth Sidious than this one ghost is that appears in a few scenes.Walter White also changed only at the very last minute but similar to Vader he changed when it was all too late and ends up dead and exhausted in an extremely similar end scene, Scrooge lives happiliy after his redemption, meaning it's a totally different tone.
The Ghost/Hooded Figure may not have threatened anybody, but Scrooge realized that after he passed, there would be nothing good to come from his reputation. Everyone would celebrate his death and he would endure eternal suffering, so it inspires an instant change.
Darth Vader realized if he didn't kill Sidious (His Hooded Figure) then and there, he would continue to endure unnecessary suffering under the Emperor forever. So this also forces him to make an instant change which ultimately redeems him just like it redeemed Scrooge.
By that you mean he stays unconscious and has no awareness whatsoever, basically identical to an atheist death. That's what becoming one with the force actually does to you essentially, you lose your identity and it's based on Buddhist Nirvana.
The Force Ghosts retain their identity after death.
- "Some Jedi Masters such as Qui-Gon Jinn, however, could become one with The Force, and retain their identity after death."
If Vader died as a Sith Lord and not a Jedi, he would have ended up in a realm called Chaos where he would have suffered perpetually which is the same fate as Scrooge's.
Scrooge involved a lot of Christian theology in it, his battle was blatantly to become a man of god and the way he behaved was very christian-like. He gets a chance to end up in heaven instead of hell, essentially with the ghost of the future basically being like HADES NOT A DEMENTOR FROM HARRY POTTER LMAO!!!!Walter White at the end is also seen to be at peace, he realised there was no way out of the 'dark side' of his life while he was alive.
Star Wars also has a lot of religious themes to it.
Anakin was deeply religious and was depicted as the model Jedi in the eyes of the Republic because his contributions in The Clone Wars made him an inspiration to many. Even as Vader, he was still a devout believer in The Force.
But The Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come (Hooded Figure) served as a symbol for Scrooge's condemnation in the same way Darth Sidious represented Vader/Anakin's metaphorical damnation.
Both Anakin and Scrooge's soul is saved in the end.
Forfeited
Round 5
Overview:
- Proven that Scrooge is closer to Anakin Skywalker than Walter White.
- Extend Round 1's arguments about their Tragic Past, Dark Turn, and The Ghost of Christmas Past.
- Extend Round 2's contentions about their Personalities, Common Themes, Jacob Marley, Their Misery, Workplace Mentality and Reputation, and The Concept of The Twins.
- Extend Round 3's arguments about their Redemptive Arc and The Hooded Figure.
All of these themes and contentions are dropped by Con, so will remain. It is too late for him to contest any of these things now.
Vote Pro.
Overview:
- Proven that Scrooge is closer to Anakin Skywalker than Walter White.
Not even slightly... The only debater to actually contrast direct things proactively was me, all my opponent did was nitpick.
- Extend Round 1's arguments about their Tragic Past, Dark Turn, and The Ghost of Christmas Past.
Ghost of Christmas Past isn't in Star Wars whatsoever. There is no supernatural being that succeeds in making Anakin Skywalker return from Darth Vader, Obi Wan's ghost fails miserably. Instead, it is Luke and Luke alone, much like Walter's son.
- Extend Round 2's contentions about their Personalities, Common Themes, Jacob Marley, Their Misery, Workplace Mentality and Reputation, and The Concept of The Twins.
You tried a round 2 blitzkrieg as your Round 1 lacked any constructive whatsoever. The 'themes' you refer to are extremely abstract aspects. Misery in one storyline or life is not parallel to that of another and a character like Jacob Marley really has no equivalent for Anakin whatsoever other than maybe previous Sith, clearly he didn't care and his entire journey is the opposite direction to the journey of character that Scrooge has.
- Extend Round 3's arguments about their Redemptive Arc and The Hooded Figure.
All of these themes and contentions are dropped by Con, so will remain. It is too late for him to contest any of these things now.Vote Pro.
I neverdropped them, this is direct gaslighting and lying, the voters will see through it.
As for me, my summary is literally my Round 1, which Pro barely touched on:
- Son (Scrooge lacks) major element.
- Spouse for Scrooge is so different and actually what the son was for WW and AS
- Scrooge doesn't really engage in violence, he's just a rich prick abusing his power and wealth that grows a conscience, basically the polar opposite of AS and WW who grow bitter and selfish as the story progresses until a sudden breakthrough just prior the ending, strongly pushed onto by their sons and the way they are.
- Scrooge's nephew isn't remotely comparable, his nephew is 'one of many' to Scrooge that he actually found repulsive in their innocence and kindness, whereas AS and WW always had a soft spot for their sons (Darth Vader could have killed Luke, instead he told him he was his father and left him with a lost hand which is not that bad in Star Wars universe what with the prosthetic robotic hands available.
That's absolutely crazy. I remember reading this. I remember typing like two sentences about Gus and Palpatine in my vote. Who knows. I'll come back to this tonight if I get the chance.
No, but I believe you were planning to vote.
I thought I voted on this? Am I losing my mind?
I'm about to read through and vote on this, however, I do love the idea that Con says Anakin Skywalker most resembles Anakin Skywalker. Easy dunk.
I remember him asking to put his cap on to cover the light, but not putting him in a container.
Ghost of Christmas Past.
"Scrooge makes the ghost vanish by concealing the apparition in a container."
Admittedly it's been 4 or 5 years since I read it, but what? Which ghost does he do this to?
I wish formatting would allow tables on this site. A debate like this could really benefit from those.
I am probably picking Walter White, gonna think some things through though. Neither Scrooge nor White start off as kids, meaning we share the same dissonance in that way.
I was going to pick Yoda based on a wrong skimreading interpretation, very good I re-read it.
This is easier than I thought. Lol. The main flaw you have is the way he transitioned is the inverse of Scrooge.
Tagged in case of interest.