Instigator / Pro
11
1485
rating
11
debates
63.64%
won
Topic
#4286
Is abortion murder from the point of conception?
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
Sir.Lancelot
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 4,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
12
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Description
This debate will cover all stages of pregnancy but will not cover cases of rape, the removal of ectopic pregnancies, or abortions performed to save the life of the mother. It will also not cover legality. Murder will be defined here in the moral sense. The burden of proof is shared.
All arguments given MUST be at least 3,500 characters to prove that both participants are committed to the debate. Failure to adhere to this will result in a loss.
Forfeiting a round will result in a loss.
To clarify, the first person to forfeit or break the character rule loses immediately, after that the rules no longer apply
Round 1
I would like to thank my opponent for engaging in this debate, and I would like to thank all of you for reading it. I also encourage you to vote afterwards.
In this debate, I will attempt to emphasize one central point: that killing a baby is a bad thing. Perhaps I will have more difficulty than I expect in establishing this point, as the killing of babies is often convenient to justify. I expect we will hear many arguments that justify murder for the purpose of economic convenience. I expect I we will also see babies and human beings referred to as something other than babies and human beings. But if we are to discuss abortion, it should be defined in simple terms, and abortion is best defined as killing a baby. When a woman goes to a clinic for an abortion, the doctor's job is to kill the baby, and if the baby is somehow alive by the end of the procedure, an abortion has not been performed.
Therefore, I hold that abortion constitutes the killing of an innocent human being. But when do human beings become human beings? The pro-choice camp does not provide us with a singular answer, but science does. In Essentials of Human Embryology, Keith Moore writes the following [1]:
Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception). Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.
In Medical Embryology, Jan Langman writes:
The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.
Note that the aforementioned zygote has its own unique human DNA. A Japanese zygote implanted in a Ukranian woman will always be Japanese, not Ukranian, because the identity of a fetus is based on his or her genetic code, not that of the body they occupy. Furthermore, if the woman’s body is the only one involved in a pregnancy, then for most of the pregnancy, she must have two brains, two circulatory systems, two noses, four legs, two sets of fingerprints, and two skeletal systems. Half the time she must also have male sex organs. To deny that abortion is killing a baby, my opponent must reject the overwhelming scientific consensus that life begins at conception, agreed on by 95% of biologists [2].
The most common method of abortion involves sucking the fetus out of the womb with a vacuum hose [3]. Another common method, known as D&E, involves ripping the baby's limbs off and removing them from the womb one body part at a time [4] [5]. Dr. Martin Haskell, an abortionist, states the following [6]:
The more common late-term abortion methods are the classic D&E and induction. [Induction] usually involves injecting digoxin or another substance into the fetal heart to kill it, then dilating the cervix and inducing labor...Classic D&E is accomplished by dismembering the fetus inside the uterus with instruments and removing the pieces through an adequately dilated cervix.
To argue that abortion is not killing an innocent human being, also known as murder, my opponent must establish that an unborn child is not human, that an unborn child is not innocent, or that abortion does not involve killing an unborn child.
It is universally understood that murdering babies is wrong. That’s not being contested at all.
The question that remains is whether or not abortion is murder.
The Definition of Murder
The description refers to murder in the moral sense, not in the legal sense and that’s where the lines get blurred because morals differ by culture. Since Pro doesn’t define which version, that raises questions.:
- How does the moral version differ from the legal version?
- Are we extending the moral version to include stepping on an ant-hill as an act of genocide?
Even if the wording differs, the concept of murder in legality is semantically the same even in a moral context. The only difference being in whose life has value and whose does not.
Murder - The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
I’ll propose this definition be used for now, unless Pro wishes to contest it with a superior one.
The Concept of Life
Pro mentions that life begins at fertilization which is backed by the support of 80% of scientists. That is too overwhelming to refute.
But then rises the question, alive in what way?
Skin cells are alive and you kill them everyday. Are you guilty of murder?
The answer to the major question is that the term ‘life’ is misleading. Fetuses are alive in the same concept of cells, not sentient creatures.
- They behave like cells, not like organisms.
Round 2
My opponent's round is less than 3,500 characters, so I could forfeit and still win. But I will keep arguing for fun, especially since the character limit no longer applies.
First, I find it odd that my opponent agrees on using the moral definition of murder and then uses the legal one anyway. This definition doesn't necessarily even help their case because abortion is legally classified as murder in some places. Killing slaves used to be legal. Legality does not impact whether something is moral or not, so a moral definition should not depend on the law and change from one country to another. Therefore, I think we can reject my opponent's definition as self-contradictory.
A better definition will define murder as killing an innocent human being, regardless of immutable characteristics such as sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. My opponent has not contested that abortion fits this description, and so far, it's clearly the superior definition used in this debate. My opponent asks how the unborn child is alive, which I already answered in my opening; the unborn child has a distinct set of DNA. A skin cell has the same DNA as whoever it belongs to, proving that it is part of that person's body and not a separate organism. We know that an unborn child is a distinct organism and that they are biologically human. Because an unborn child is a human being, killing them is wrong.
Cells are parts of organisms or organisms themselves [1]. Different organisms have distinct DNA [2]. Because the cells that compose an unborn child have distinct DNA, they compose a distinct organism. So when my opponent says that unborn children behave like cells and not like organisms, he is providing you with false information.
A baby is a young child, or a human at an early stage of development. Because we agree that killing babies is wrong (and murder, too, as I think my opponent conceded) the scientific evidence resolves the question posed in this debate. Abortion involves killing an innocent human being, and it is murder from the point of conception.
My opponent's round is less than 3,500 characters, so I could forfeit and still win.
Please do. I would appreciate the Free Elo to my rating.:
- Forfeiting a round will result in a loss.
Whoops. Doesn’t look like that’s an option for you.
Moving on...
First, I find it odd that my opponent agrees on using the moral definition of murder and then uses the legal one anyway. This definition doesn't necessarily even help their case because abortion is legally classified as murder in some places. Killing slaves used to be legal. Legality does not impact whether something is moral or not, so a moral definition should not depend on the law and change from one country to another. Therefore, I think we can reject my opponent's definition as self-contradictory.
The definition is to provide clarification so we have something to discuss and stay on topic for this debate, as Pro left the term undefined in the description.
Leaving something like that vague makes it open to interpretation, and as I showed the definitions are technically the same.
A better definition will define murder as killing an innocent human being, regardless of immutable characteristics such as sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. My opponent has not contested that abortion fits this description, and so far, it's clearly the superior definition used in this debate. My opponent asks how the unborn child is alive, which I already answered in my opening; the unborn child has a distinct set of DNA. A skin cell has the same DNA as whoever it belongs to, proving that it is part of that person's body and not a separate organism. We know that an unborn child is a distinct organism and that they are biologically human. Because an unborn child is a human being, killing them is wrong.
There are time restrictions for when it is too late to get an abortion. Even if the fetus is still technically alive, the starting point for sentience is 14 weeks and by then, it is usually too late to get an abortion.
- “Thus, 18 to 25 weeks is considered the earliest stage at which the lower boundary of sentience could be placed.”
And abortions for fish exist too, so since your version limits abortion to only humans, then it logically follows that abortion is not murder.
Round 3
Whoops. Doesn’t look like that’s an option for you.
See description: "To clarify, the first person to forfeit or break the character rule loses immediately, after that the rules no longer apply."
Whoops, looks like it is. This is where my opponents usually beg me for mercy.
My opponent does not appear to dispute that an unborn child is a human being. Despite quoting what I said, he's failed to actually respond to the problems I pointed out with his definition. My definition is not vague either; it's actually very specific (and more morally consistent). Furthermore, my opponent has ceded all the biological evidence supporting my case that an unborn child is a human individual deserving of rights. Instead of responding to all of my arguments, my opponent has raised a new point about sentience. People in comas are not sentient, and killing them is still murder. So clearly killing human beings doesn't stop being murder just because they are not sentient.
My opponent also makes Hail Mary attempt to win on a technicality by talking about fish "abortions", which are clearly not the subject of this debate. Saying "Abortion is murder" pretty obviously refers to human abortions, not to fish abortions, "aborting" a mission, an "unpleasant undertaking" [1], etc. If we want to get technical, abortion is typically defined as the induced killing of a human fetus or a medical procedure [2] [3]. Earlier we agreed that killing babies is wrong, and it's pretty obvious we were talking about human children.
But all of this is irrelevant since my opponent violated the character rule in the description.
But all of this is irrelevant since my opponent violated the character rule in the description.
...Well, that’s a shame.
I was looking for a productive conversation and had refutations to all of Pro’s points.
But as he won’t waive that rule and make an exception once, I can only infer that he’s either not interested or is unable to argue the topic.
Oh well.
Round 4
I was looking for a productive conversation and had refutations to all of Pro’s points.
I'm sure
I can only infer that he’s either not interested or is unable to argue the topic.
You can still debate me for fun, it just won't help your rating.
I implement this rule to intentionally avoid people using low-effort arguments. It took you less than an hour to respond, and most of your arguments were pretty short. Also, you clearly didn't pay attention to the description. I have a hard time believing that was your best effort.
I actually discovered Pro violated the character count rule first. In round 1, the character count (without the block test) doesn’t even reach 3,000.
Characters (including spaces) 2497”
He quotes from sources and since the writing does not belong to him, his arguments do not reach the minimum limit. Instead of disqualifying my opponent, I’d encourage voters to ignore it because if all we have to do to meet the character limit is copy and paste, then it follows that this rule isn’t a serious one.
My opponent does not appear to dispute that an unborn child is a human being. Despite quoting what I said, he's failed to actually respond to the problems I pointed out with his definition. My definition is not vague either; it's actually very specific (and more morally consistent). Furthermore, my opponent has ceded all the biological evidence supporting my case that an unborn child is a human individual deserving of rights. Instead of responding to all of my arguments, my opponent has raised a new point about sentience. People in comas are not sentient, and killing them is still murder. So clearly killing human beings doesn't stop being murder just because they are not sentient.
Whether or not the fetus is a human being or not is irrelevant and is just a matter of scientific terminology.
The resolution addresses conception, which is the earliest stages of development. Medical limitations on abortion procedures rarely allow for late abortions, as when the fetus reaches a certain point of sentience, and a very late abortion occurs, then the ‘murder’ term may be applicable.
But as I pointed out in Round 1, my source points to the life in the conception phases as more like that of a cell. This is long before the fetus has developed the capacity for consciousness.
And as for coma patients.:
- If the coma patient demonstrates a possibility for recovery, then terminating their life could be seen as murder. Because the patient was sentient before their unresponsive state and had intended to live for longer, and did not give pre-consent to having their life ended. It’s also likely they weren’t put into a coma voluntarily and after waking up, they will still want to live on.
- If the head trauma for a coma patient makes the damage irreparable and the life beyond saving, then euthanizing them makes no difference anyway.
The fetus during conception does not process thought, emotion, or demonstrate the capacity for intention. So the comparison to a coma patient is moot anyway.
My opponent also makes Hail Mary attempt to win on a technicality by talking about fish "abortions", which are clearly not the subject of this debate. Saying "Abortion is murder" pretty obviously refers to human abortions, not to fish abortions,
This isn’t clarified anywhere in the description.
Round 5
Despite pretty much conceding in round 3, my opponent has made the mind-blowing discovery that if you ignore some of the characters in my opening, my opening does not have 3,500 characters. I will remind the audience that the quotes he is excluding are from textbooks written by experts and provide strong evidence that is relevant to this debate. Block quotes are generally included in word count [1], and DebateArt counts the characters as well. If these characters are counted to enforce word maximums, why shouldn't they be counted to enforce word minimums as well?
I already explained that an unborn child is an organism with unique DNA, so my opponent's argument that an unborn child is "more like a cell" is patently false. My opponent seems to think that sometimes it is okay to kill human beings because that is "just a matter of scientific terminology." I happen to think that scientific facts are very important here, as my opponent does when discussing coma patients (which I will get to later). Forensic evidence is used all the time in court to determine if a human being has been murdered, and the designation of whether someone is "dead" or "alive" is a scientific concept in the first place. Ignoring science when classifying a particular action as murder would be silly.
A definition of murder should be objective and protect all human beings, not just those we like or those with certain immutable characteristics. My opponent, in contrast, thinks that the morality of killing someone depends entirely on whether it's legal. Remember that we are defining murder here based on morality, not legality. If my opponent was being consistent here, he would say that killing people in comas is wrong because it's illegal. But clearly, he doesn't really believe that murder is based solely on legality.
People in deep comas cannot process thought, emotion, or demonstrate the capacity for intention. My opponent says that coma patients have moral worth because they were sentient in the past and had intended to continue living. But this fails for two reasons. First, he invalidates the point immediately by saying it's fine to euthanize coma patients who won't wake up. So clearly past sentience is irrelevant here—my opponent thinks people get moral value from the ability to be sentient in the future, and that would include unborn children. Second, some mentally disabled people or infants might not contemplate their own existence or future and specifically think "I want to keep living". Infants are not self-aware [2]. Even if we knew they had never contemplated their future, killing them is still murder.
I notice my opponent didn't respond to the actual definitions of abortion that limit it to humans; they only seem to care how the term is used by the media. They also seem to actually think that this debate applies to fish abortions. I pointed out how nonsensical this is—we could just as easily claim that the debate is about "aborting" a project, and they didn't have much of a response to that either. There are 1,000 things they can nitpick about this debate, but reading the description makes it obvious what the debate is about. If they want to derail the debate and invent new rules for word count halfway through, I won't stop them, but I think the audience will be able to see exactly what they are doing.
I think it's been made clear that abortion is murder from the point of conception. Initially, my opponent and I agreed that killing babies was wrong, but when I pointed out that an unborn child is a human in an early stage of development and therefore a baby, he claimed that the scientific evidence was irrelevant. I think I've established several times by now that abortion is killing an innocent human being, which is murder by even the narrowest of definitions.
Let’s look back to my actual words from Round 3.:
...Well, that’s a shame.I was looking for a productive conversation and had refutations to all of Pro’s points.But as he won’t waive that rule and make an exception once, I can only infer that he’s either not interested or is unable to argue the topic.Oh well.
Due to the way it’s phrased, this doesn’t actually count as a concession. Even an implied concession is conditional on whether said rule is actually valid or not and as Pro violated it first, I discovered, I’ll just wrap this up with my closing argument.
Conclusion:
- Proven that abortion is not murder by pointing out it doesn’t follow the definition and that life functions differently at conception (no sentience.) than a newborn child.
- Proven that Pro’s definition of murder is limited only to humans, while abortions are done to different species.
- Proven that the ethics are different concerning comatose patients and fetuses.
Vote CON
It was on this debate
Feel free to test it. Standards are pretty clear.
Well shit. It was only my first time voting. And it’s clear RationalMadman was whining about it. Didn’t realize I had to read a litany of excuses and standards just to cast a vote. I read others votes and modeled those. So clearly it’s okay for others to vote that way but not I. I’ll be sure to report votes that are similar to what you removed. See if you’re consistent or a hypocrite.
I appreciate it and I have it on good authority that your vote was reported by RationalMadMan to retaliate against me because his vote got reported by someone else.
You can call these minor, but they have been the standards for voting on the site and, regardless of how obvious you feel your decision is, they’re the standards you have to meet if you want to vote, particularly when you’ve chosen to award an array of points for different reasons.
Well well…aren’t we nit-picky on such minor technicalities.
I called it like I observed it. All factually accurate statements. Sir.Lancelot won that debate hands down.
**************************************************
>Reported Vote: TWS1405_2 // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 6 points to Con (Arguments, Legibility and Conduct)
>Reason for Decision:
Pro took the shotgun approach to their position, use our source(s), and oft patronizing responses.
Pro basically regurgitated the all too familiar talking points, cherry picking only data that they perceived to substantiate their view. That being said, what was put forth was incorrectly read, interpreted and put forth akin to both an appeal to authority but mostly emotion.
Pro didn’t adequately define necessary terms that were central to the debate, whereas Con did. This clarity gave a foundation for Con’s argument to build upon moving forward.
I so no concession in any round. Just the assumption of one, and a denial of the rules by Pro, who established those rules.
Con made, for the better part of the arguments put forth, factually accurate assertions. Much of which is just basic common sense/knowledge of the coexisting topic material as it directly relates to the abortion subject.
Overall, Con’s position was the better (more convincing) argument with more rationale, and also with less tone (attitude) than what Pro put forth.
>Reason for Mod Action:
All the voter's point allocations are vaguely established. I don't see any justification for legibility. The conduct point is based on things like "tone" "attitude" and being "patronizing," which is too general to clearly suffice as a conduct violation. The standards for awarding conduct are spelled out here:
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#conduct
As for arguments, the voter doesn't assess any specific points, instead choosing to discuss issues with Pro's argument generally and say that Con's had a better foundation based on terminology. While that might be true, the voter does have to assess specific arguments, not just say that one side stuck to "familiar talking points" from "incorrectly read" sources while the other side used more "factually accurate assertions" based on "common sense/knowledge". This also reads as the voter inserting their view on the topic into the RFD rather than assessing the points as given by each side based on their merit.
**************************************************
**************************************************
>Reported Vote: RationalMadman // Mod action: Not Removed (borderline)
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 1 to pro
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:
While the concession is in question, the the rest of the vote is fine due to the debate description specifying a special rule which voters may factor into their votes.
The vote was borderline. By default, borderline votes are ruled to be sufficient.
**************************************************
Thank you, sir!
Currently reading through the debate - vote will be up in a few days.
Thank you!
You got it.
My vote is around half way done. It's a bit of a tough decision..
Could I get a vote on this debate?
AustinL- Thx, bro!
Barney- Thx for the vote!
I just did.
Lol. Make your case to the voting mods then.
"[Votes based on concessions] are invalid if the concession was not explicit, not intended, or not part of the debate proper (such as a debater in the comment section saying they would vote in favor of their opponent)."
Considering how vaguely worded CON's "concession" was, a case could be made for it not being explicit.
Plz vote!
i wasnt attempting maliciousness, i just didnt see his link [1] and [2] in round 2 and because it wasnt specified where characters came from.
I vote based on what happened in the debate, not my personal opinions. If Lancelot comes up with a convincing rules Kritik and defends it, I'll give him the win. If he doesn't, then I give you the win, regardless of how silly I find your rules. That's how objective voting works.
my apologies, i didnt see the [1]. and [2]. of your round 2.
then, lancelot did violate character limit 1st at round 4.
But this is DebateArt, so rounds that comply with DebateArt's method of counting characters follow the rules.
Honestly, I don't really care at this point. You clearly just want to vote against me.
And perhaps that's the case. But one day, someone will accept one of your debates and successfully Kritik your rules. Why, that person might even be me, once my schoolwork completes itself.
Sir.Lancelot has not kritiked the rules yet, in fact he seemed to agree with them.
It's called malicious compliance, and tends to be a natural consequence of making silly rules. FYI, many style guides exclude in-text citations from the character count, meaning your first round argument technically has less than 3500 characters.
are you referring to 1. and 2.?
He didn't include characters from the website in his round, so they don't count. Are you really not understanding this? Character minimum should logically count characters the same way as character maximum.
"you broke your rule first in round 2 IF i count the characters within lancelots source in round 1."
Then I didn't break the rules if you count my characters that way. I had links in R2. If we count things that way, he broke the rule first in R3.
But NOBODY counts characters that way. DebateArt certainly doesn't. Neither does any style guide. Why are you making up rules to give him the win?
you didnt specify if characters were for debateart website ONLY.
so i counted lancelots website characters he mentioned https://lozierinstitute.org/a-scientific-view-of-when-life-begins/
well, not entirely, but it was over 3.5k characters.
"Why would anyone agree to a debate with a rule they weren't willing to follow?? I don't get it."
It's called a rules Kritik, and is a perfectly valid strategy.
you broke your rule first in round 2 IF i count the characters within lancelots source in round 1.
If you DONT COUNT the characters in the url, I still follow the rules in round 1. If you DO COUNT them, I still follow the rules. DebateArt counted my characters and agrees with me. In round 2, I no longer had to follow the rules, because they no longer applied, per the description.
Why would anyone agree to a debate with a rule they weren't willing to follow?? I don't get it.
i dont think you are understanding me.
a source is basically a link to a website that addresses a topic with characters, just like characters im typing right now.
however the url used is condensed for ease of access, but within that url is all the characters of that website.
https://dictionary.com <this has 22 characters as url. it also has thousands more inside it.
you didnt tell us in your rules to count the characters of url of the source, or to count characters in the source.
"If the rules in the description are authoritative"
Key word being if. As a DART history connoisseur, I can name at least three instances in which a side that had violated a rule successfully argued against its validity and went on to win its debate. Considering the clear absurdity of this rule (at Melcharaz has pointed out), this could be a fourth.
"To clarify, the first person to forfeit or break the character rule loses immediately, after that the rules no longer apply"
As I said earlier, by round 2 the character rule no longer applied. This was very clear based on the description. In round 1, I met the word count WITHOUT SOURCE LINKS.
thats true, in your debate with mall you both had 3500 or more characters WITHOUT SOURCE LINKS. there was no need for me to count them character wise.
Which round are you disputing? In round 1, I followed the rule. By round 2, the rule no longer applied because my opponent had violated it.
you posted no source link in round 2. otherwise i wouldnt dispute this. you showed 2064 characters, and didnt specify if information via source link counts as characters or not.
you have to make your rules clear.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/redundancy
this link has either 44 characters or over 3500 if i count whats in it. but not both.
In my debate with Mall, you said "both sides used more than 3500 consistently". I used a nearly identical opening and you obviously counted block quotes then.
But as long as you're determined to vote against me, I don't think any evidence is going to change your mind.
Did you read the link I gave? Block quotes count. It seems like you're just voting against me because you don't like that I made the rule.
Luckily this site will literally count characters for you and tell you how many you have left. I did not violate the character rule in round 1.
My opponent was ignoring block quotes that WERE INTERPRETABLE. Based on interpretable characters, I followed the rule.
do we count the characters of the source link? or the characters contained in the source link?
besides, you never specified if the link of the source is part of the arguement character countage with/aside characters in a debate.
given that, i must count according to characters interpretable. that being your 2064 characters was the first to break your rule.
I read the comment you linked to. If the rules in the description are authoritative, then I should win. I don't like that this has become a popularity contest, but there's not much I can do about that now.
You can vote how you want, I'm not denying that. I'm just defending the rule since everyone else is attacking it. I don't see how following established rules violates the spirit of a debate.
i already gave meep standards and bsh1 guide regarding rules in the comments section of last debate you were in. whiteflame said it can be counted by voter(s)
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4245-is-abortion-murder-from-the-point-of-conception?open_tab=comments&comments_page=1&comment_number=5
(same place)
comment# 9
It clearly states in the description that once someone violates the rule, they lose and the rules no longer apply. I made sure of that when you held the same technicality against me earlier.
I wouldn't want you to but there's no rule I can implement to prevent that, and it would at least prove you read the description. At least the character rule is something.