Instigator / Pro
4
1500
rating
1
debates
0.0%
won
Topic
#4432
Why Morality and Meaning Cannot Exist in an Atheist Universe (or Multiverse)
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
12
Better sources
2
8
Better legibility
1
4
Better conduct
1
4
After 4 votes and with 24 points ahead, the winner is...
Novice_II
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
28
1890
rating
98
debates
93.37%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
Let us start off simply and on one subject, so as to keep the debate clear and concise. Since I am the instigator of this debate I think it is only fair that round one will be on the subject of death in an atheist universe. Now, in an atheist universe, when you die, you are dead as a doorknob and that is that. You have been utterly and totally annihilated. Now, if you disagree with this, then, in my opinion you have moved from the realm of atheism to theism. There is no way around this. If your worldview is correct, then in 60 or so years time you will be extinguished like a candle, never to come into being again for all eternity. Now, you could claim that you could upload your consciousness to a computer, or a more advanced version of the internet. In that case, it will not matter, for no matter how long you can make yourself live, the universe will annihilate itself after the last iron stars turn into black holes, and those black holes evaporate and explode (yes, black holes do evaporate, it just takes a very long time). You could even find a way to integrate your consciousness into the fluctuating quantum field, and harness zero-point energy, thus truly creating some sort of ghost that is moving around the universe at the speed of light. Such technology will probably exist one day if it is possible. So then, the only way around death in this regard is to travel to an alternate universe, and to keep up jumping universes for all eternity to avoid the heat-death of each individual universe (technically the universe itself will not die but that is besides the point). But now we are getting into the realm of fantasy, unless you actually want to argue this. I have heard atheists un-ironically make this argument, that we can upload our minds and thus live forever (like TJump from YouTube). It is quite ridiculous, because even if we could, we are still absolutely guaranteed to die some day, thus you cannot take comfort in mind uploading. Now that we have gotten the question of death out of the way, you must move on to what will happen when you die. When you die, you will be annihilated. What does this truly mean? It means the death of the observer, the experiencer, and knower. You are YOUR OWN experiencer, and nobody else's. That is to say, from your perspective, nothing exists outside your consciousness, for everything that you know and experience exists within your mind. This debate exists within your mind, and so does your computer (at least visually), and the knowledge of how to work your computer, and, if you are listening to music like I am right now, I think it goes without saying that the music ONLY exists within your mind, and if anybody else is with you, then from their perspective, the music only exists within their minds as well. So then, from YOUR PERSPECTIVE, the entire cosmos exists within your head. Basically, it is like your brain is generating a virtual reality landscape (in which your body and mind is a part, for you only feel your mind and body), in which you can move around in. I know that sounds crazy but it makes sense if you think about it. For somebody that doesn't know about the planets, or the astounding length of the Milky Way galaxy (100,000 light years), or the fact that our universe could be a finite 4 dimensional hypersphere with no apparent edge, or no knowledge of the quantum foam or string theory, these things are totally outside their 'realm of experience.' That is to say, we do not know what is outside our consciousness, for anything that is outside our consciousness is not only unknown, but we do not even know that we don't know it. Just think what it would be like to be a cave-man. From their perspective, their cave, the river, the forest, the stars, their family, and the gods are the only things that exist, and who are we to blame them? Ok, so what am I getting at? I want you to really consider my statement that, 'the entire cosmos exists within your head.' Ok then, do I mean that the cosmos wouldn't exist if you didn't exist? No, I do not mean that at all, but what I am arguing is that YOUR CONCIOUSSNESS and mine, and your dog's, and the consciousness of every living being that has existed, does exist, and will exist is part and parcel of the cosmos. You cannot have one without the other. No cosmos without 'soul' and no 'soul' without cosmos. This is in fact similar to an argument that the Greek philosopher Socrates used to prove that you were never created and will never die. So then, because FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, all of reality exists within you, I want you to consider what will happen when you will die. Obviously you will have no senses. I think that goes without saying. No sight, no sound, no smell, no touch, no nothing. Now, I want you to try to 'look behind your head,' as if you head eyes in the back of your skull. Because you cannot see out of the back of your head, not only is there no sight, but there isn't even a void. There is only absolute and total annihilation visually. Ok then, that is what it will be like for your senses. Now, moving on to your intellect, I think it goes without saying that you won't be able to think at all. You will be in a state far and beyond deep sleep or being in a coma. So then, absolute annihilation of intellect. Now, I want you to consider the final state of mind of which these previous things are dependent upon. That being awareness. Finally, it can be said that your awareness will be annihilated. Now, it will be like seeing 'behind your head,' for there will not be just 'a void' of 'non-awareness,' but the annihilation of awareness to such an extent that you are not even aware of it. It will be above and beyond anything like the void. That is to say, from your perspective, EVERYTHING ceased to exist. The whole universe, time itself, the void, all form and senses, all sense of the self and the possibility of other selves EVERYTHING IN IT'S TOTALITY. So, because from your perspective, there will be no perspective, you might as well saying that nothing exists and will continue to exist in that way for all of eternity. It will be EXACLY LIKE what reality was like before the Big Bang, for the Big Bang was the rapid expanse of the space-time continuum (proven by the fact that space itself is expanding, not just the objects within space). But here is the thing. Scientists like Stephen Hawking say that there actually was no 'before' the Big Bang, for there can be no such thing as 'before' time. "Observations indicate that the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate. It will expand forever, getting emptier and darker. Although the universe doesn't have an end, it had a beginning in the Big Bang. One might ask what is before that but the answer is that there is nowhere before the Big Bang just as there is nowhere south of the South Pole." - Stephan Hawking. Now, even though Stephan Hawking was brilliant, and I do believe in the Big Bang theory, I think it is ridiculous and dare I say idiotic to think that this was the beginning of time, for non-existence cannot exist, because that goes against the definition of non-existence, thus time never had a beginning. Now, apply the same argument to the nature of death and what I was talking about regarding the nature of annihilation. Just as it is ridiculous and idiotic to say that time had a beginning, it is ridiculous and idiotic to say that you will die and that there was a time in which you didn't exist. I know that sounds absurd, but if time always existed, then certainly it is possible for SOMETHING to have always existed, and if it is possible for something to have always existed, and the soul is something, then it is not a logical contradiction to say that the soul has always existed. Thus, you are an eternal being. Furthermore, if you WILL BE annihilated, as you think, then nothing matters, for at one point in time all of your experiences will disappear into nothingness for all of eternity, thus NONE OF YOUR EXPIERENCES matter. Thus, morality doesn't exist. Morality can only exist if the soul is eternal. Furthermore, you could argue that only the present matters, so you might as well try to live the best moral life in the here and now, but that is just ignoring the point that the present is always changing, and before you know it, this present will change to another one in which you are dead. Do you see what I am saying? The present is ghostly and fleeting, always changing and never withing our reach, and even if you have lived a good and fulfilled life, when you are on your death bed, I guarantee you that you will be shocked that this is 'the new present,' that you are actually and truly dying RIGHT NOW. Thus, on your death bed, you will see that everything was for naught (if you are still an atheist, that is). So then, I have concluded that morality cannot exist if atheism is true. That being the case, you could argue that you could do whatever you want, which INCLUDES being a moral person, because that is what makes you feel good, as the French philosopher Albert Camus concluded. But even that is illogical for you will die and all your experiences will come to naught. Thus, there is no point in being moral, and there is no point in going around killing and raping. And because any finite period of time is infinitely small compared to eternity, you could argue that you might as well commit suicide, but even THAT is meaningless for you will die later on from natural means. 60 years is the same as this afternoon compared to forever. Thus, from any living being's perspective, meaning cannot exist, and this reality is absurd, meaning cannot exist. Thus, morality and meaning cannot exist if atheism is true. Lastly, I must really highlight that non-existence cannot exist. There has been and always will be 'a perspective,' just like there has been and always will be time and space. "The soul of man is immortal and imperishable," - Plato.
Con
#2
Overview
- The proposition that was supposed to be argued for was "Morality and Meaning Cannot Exist in an Atheist Universe (or Multiverse)." Unfortunately, Pro's round one is just a ramble, and there is no clear inference being made. Many confusions start from very early and continue to affect pro's entire case. For one:
Now, if you disagree with this, then, in my opinion you have moved from the realm of atheism to theism. There is no way around this. If your worldview is correct, then in 60 or so years time you will be extinguished like a candle, never to come into being again for all eternity.
- This is false, as it confuses Naturalism with Atheism. Naturalism is a thesis "affirming that all beings and events in the universe (whatever their inherent character may be) are natural." All Atheism is, is the view that no God/god(s) exist. You don't need to be a naturalist to be an atheist. So everything con states about death is simply irrelevant to the debate. You can be an atheist and believe in an afterlife, there is no contradiction there. And note that these are simply the standard definitions used in the philosophy of religion.
- Even if it was relevant, the fact that people will die someday does not entail that morality or meaning do not exist on atheism. The argument (if you can even call this one) would be a non-sequitur.
Analysis I
- Here is a suggestion for pro. When pro says that morality "can't" exist on atheism, presumably this is a modal claim, which means that the existence of such entails some contradiction or so. Pro can start by giving the conjunction of the proposition and negation entailed by such.
- As for me, I just need to show that it is possible, and that seems simple, because we have language that we use to communicate in this debate, and that language is understood collectively as a set of shared concepts, and it is possible that atheism is true right now, which means that it is obviously possible for there to be meaning on atheism.
Round 2
Con
#4
Overview
- Again, the proposition that was supposed to be argued for was "Morality and Meaning Cannot Exist in an Atheist Universe (or Multiverse)." Unfortunately, Pro's round one is just a ramble, and there is no clear inference being made. Many confusions start from very early and continue to affect pro's entire case. Let me just extend our previous post.
Analysis II
- All we need from pro is the contradiction entailed by having meaning and morality under atheism. It can't be anything about the afterlife because morality, whether subjective or objective, is not contingent on an afterlife and you can be an atheist (believe no Gods exist) and believe in an afterlife. There is no contradiction there. Atheism != Materialism.
- Secondly, our language obviously has meaning otherwise we would not understand this debate. It is however possible that atheism is true right now, and therefore it has to be possible for there to be meaning under atheism.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Morality and meaning need to be better defined. I dont know what Pro means by "meaning". Plus, Pro forfeited. I would say that writing long text without proper spacing can lose you debates, since it makes it much harder for voters to read arguments.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Interesting first rounds. Full Forfeit, however.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con points out the difference between naturalism and atheism. Pro opts to forfeit the rest of the debate.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Pro did a nice try but needs to really break things apart in their posts. Having a long paragraph develops into reading like its a run on sentence. People start to get confused really easily.
Over all debate falls apart as pro forfiets later rounds.
Con put in an easier format to read. I feel like con also did two things that I always felt hard to balance: Participate in the debate to demonstrate your position and give opponent a fair oppertunity.
I consider this a matter of sportsmanship that con expresses very well.
Im sorry I thought both candidates had 1 source but found none for Pro as I reread the debate.
This may be good for forum
The ongoing debate on whether morality and meaning can exist in an atheist universe seems to have stalled. In an effort to reinvigorate the conversation, I would like to share an interesting article that supports the idea that morality and meaning can indeed exist without the need for divine authority. At the heart of this debate lies the fundamental question of whether one needs to believe in a higher power or divine authority to derive moral and existential principles. In this essay, I will argue that morality and meaning can indeed exist in an atheist universe, drawing upon the works of famous philosophers and sources to support my case.
Firstly, let us consider the concept of morality. Many theistic arguments posit that morality must be grounded in God or divine authority. However, this argument is not without its flaws. For instance, the famous philosopher Immanuel Kant argued that moral principles must be derived from reason rather than from the commands of a deity. He famously proposed the Categorical Imperative, which states that one should always act in such a way that one's actions could be turned into a universal law. In other words, moral principles are derived from reason and are applicable to all people, regardless of their belief in God.
Similarly, other famous philosophers such as Aristotle and John Stuart Mill have developed moral theories that are not dependent on the existence of a deity. Aristotle, for instance, believed that moral virtues were acquired through habit and practice, and were essential for living a fulfilled and meaningful life. Mill, on the other hand, developed a utilitarian ethical theory, which holds that moral action is the one that maximizes happiness and minimizes suffering for the greatest number of people.
Furthermore, secular humanism, a philosophy that emphasizes the importance of reason, ethics, and social justice, provides a comprehensive framework for moral decision-making without invoking divine authority. Humanists believe that humans are capable of developing a shared moral code through reason, empathy, and rational discourse.
Moving on to the question of meaning, some may argue that life is meaningless without the belief in a higher power or divine purpose. However, many famous philosophers have proposed alternative sources of meaning that are not dependent on religious beliefs. Friedrich Nietzsche, for example, argued that the meaning of life is to be found in the creation of one's own values and the pursuit of personal goals, rather than in adherence to external authorities or dogmas. Similarly, Jean-Paul Sartre believed that human beings are free to create their own meaning in life, and that this freedom is both liberating and challenging.
Moreover, some atheists argue that a naturalistic worldview can actually provide a deeper appreciation of morality and meaning. The famous biologist E.O. Wilson, for instance, has proposed the concept of "biophilia," which describes the innate human connection to nature and the living world. According to Wilson, this connection can provide a sense of purpose and meaning that is not dependent on religious beliefs.
In conclusion, the question of whether morality and meaning can exist in an atheist universe is complex and multifaceted. However, the works of famous philosophers and sources show that it is possible to derive these concepts from secular sources and find them just as meaningful and relevant to one's life. The existence of morality and meaning in an atheist universe is therefore a matter of individual choice, rather than a necessary condition for a fulfilling and purposeful life.
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I'm looking forward to the next round.
Also hand typed so as not to offend you. I didn't intend to make you feel attacked, my intention was to point out the incorrect accusations within the discussion so that everyone could learn including myself. Additionally, to further emphasize that I did not intend to directly offend you, I presented arguments that were incorrect for both sides of the debate. As you can see, I am not trying to take a side, but rather trying to understand more about the discussion and which argument is correct, without missing any incorrect statements presented in the argument that I may have overlooked otherwise. Feel free to use this tool as well, I have no intention of winning. My only intention is to understand the world better, and it would help me understand your point of view if you could express your ideas and thoughts more organized and clearly.
How about running this through an AI detector, this was all hand typed. You could have just asked, these are my own ideas and I have fabricated them according to my own thoughts and beliefs. I have used ChatGPT as a way to help collect my thoughts and turn them into words that can be properly and effectively transmitted to others. A person can be a genius, but if they are not able to properly convey their ideas into words that are clearly understood then there is no point in debating. Being that this is a debating community, and we are not just here to argue, I figured that the users of this platform are trying to properly convey their ideas into words effectively to cultivate a more productive conversation in which others opinions and perspectives can be better understood. In order to increase my effectiveness in transmitting my ideas, I have used ChatGPT to reword my own thoughts and perspectives on the matters in order to create a more productive conversation. If you have a problem with this, then you are obviously not trying to figure out the best solution and debate productively and clearly, but rather trying to challenge others to find who is the best at effectively conveying one's ideas into words. I do not claim to be the best at explaining my ideas, which is why I use ChatGPT, however my thoughts are my own. I don't understand why you would have a problem with this unless you're only goal is to challenge people in their effectiveness of communicating their ideas, rather than actually solving the problem or communicating clearly. If this community is not intending to actually solve the problem or work towards communicating more effectively, but rather challenges people to their effectiveness of communication I would not like to be a part of it. My goal is to learn more about the world and understand other people's views and thoughts better along with expressing my own more clearly, those are my only intentions. Tell me if this does not make sense, along with if you still stand by the absence of AI communication. Would you rather people still argue and debate and fail to express their ideas clearly resulting in unproductive conversations, or effectively express one's own ideas more clearly because they have been more properly expressed, leading to a more fruitful conversation for all?
I ran this through an AI detector (https://www.zerogpt.com/) and this came out as 97.47% Chat GPT AI. I don't know why you are responding to me with such. I checked your other posts and they are both obviously written by the same AI. I would suggest replying to me yourself if you think I have made some error. If it happens again you will just be blocked.
I apologize if my previous response was unclear. I understand that the counter-argument is that the article is irrelevant because not all atheists necessarily hold the views presented in the article. However, my point was that regardless of whether or not all atheists hold those views, the article still presents flawed arguments that do not support the conclusion that "Morality and Meaning Cannot Exist in an ATHEIST Universe (or Multiverse)."
As I understand it, morality and meaning are complex concepts that can be approached from many different perspectives, including philosophical, religious, and scientific ones.
From a philosophical perspective, one can argue that morality and meaning are not dependent on the existence of a deity or supernatural force. Instead, they may be seen as human constructs that arise from our capacity for reason, empathy, and social interaction. In this view, morality and meaning are based on universal principles of compassion, fairness, and respect for human dignity, and can be discerned through rational inquiry and reflection.
From a scientific perspective, one can argue that morality and meaning are natural phenomena that emerge from the complexity of human biology and psychology, as well as our interactions with the world around us. For example, recent research in cognitive psychology and neuroscience has shed light on the neural mechanisms that underlie moral decision-making and the experience of meaning and purpose.
It is also worth noting that many atheists hold moral and ethical beliefs that are comparable, if not identical, to those held by religious believers. For example, many atheists support human rights, social justice, and environmental sustainability, and base their actions on principles of compassion, altruism, and empathy.
In conclusion, while morality and meaning may have different origins and manifestations in an atheist universe, they are by no means impossible or incoherent concepts. Rather, they are complex and multifaceted phenomena that can be approached and understood from a variety of perspectives.
I don't know why you would say it is beside the point, it seems like you are confused about what the counter was.
If someone does not have to take any of the views mentioned in his round one case to be an atheist, the argument is simply irrelevant. This is because pro is supposed to be arguing that "Morality and Meaning Cannot Exist in an ATHEIST Universe (or Multiverse)."
Someone can also be a theist, and accept all the views that pro laid out in his ramble.
Regarding the second entry of round one:
While the definitions of atheism and naturalism may be important to clarify in the context of this debate, it's ultimately beside the point. The crux of the argument is whether or not morality and meaning can exist in a universe without a higher power or divine authority, regardless of whether the person who holds that belief identifies as an atheist, naturalist, or something else entirely.
Pro's assertion that morality and meaning can't exist without a deity is a common argument, but it rests on a flawed premise. Just because something doesn't have an ultimate, objective source doesn't mean it's not meaningful or valuable to us as humans. In fact, many atheists and non-believers find great meaning and purpose in their lives without the need for a higher power to guide them.
Furthermore, the argument that death somehow negates the existence of morality or meaning is similarly misguided. Just because we have a finite amount of time on this planet doesn't mean our actions and choices don't matter, or that we can't find fulfillment and purpose in our lives. We can create our own meaning and morality, based on our own values and beliefs, without needing to rely on the dictates of a divine authority.
In short, while the definitions of atheism and naturalism may be important to clarify, they don't fundamentally change the argument at hand. The question is whether or not morality and meaning can exist without a higher power, and there's ample evidence to suggest that they can.
Regarding the first entry of round one:
The article you have shared is a mix of philosophical and scientific concepts that require careful analysis and disentangling. Let me begin by clarifying a few points and offering a better understanding of the argument.
Firstly, the article seems to conflate atheism with a materialistic view of the universe. While many atheists may hold a materialistic view, it is not a necessary requirement for atheism. Atheism simply means a lack of belief in a god or gods.
Secondly, the argument presented regarding death in an atheist universe is flawed. The author argues that in an atheist universe, death is final and there is no afterlife. While this may be true, the author then suggests that this means all atheists must accept that they will be "annihilated" and nothingness will follow. However, this is a false dichotomy. The fact that there is no afterlife does not necessitate annihilation or nothingness. Instead, one could argue that death is a natural part of the cycle of life, and that the energy and matter that make up our bodies will be recycled into the universe in some form.
Furthermore, the author's claim that mind uploading or consciousness integration into the quantum field is impossible or meaningless is premature. While we may not currently have the technology to achieve these feats, it is not beyond the realm of possibility. Additionally, the author's claim that even if we could upload our minds, we would still eventually die, is true only in the sense that the universe itself will eventually end. However, this does not negate the potential benefits of extending one's conscious existence for as long as possible.
Moving on to the second part of the article, the author makes the argument that from our own perspective, the entire cosmos exists within our consciousness. This is a philosophical idea that has been explored by many thinkers, including René Descartes and George Berkeley. However, the author's conclusion that this means the cosmos cannot exist without consciousness is a non-sequitur. While it is true that our experience of the cosmos is filtered through our consciousness, this does not mean that the cosmos is dependent on consciousness for its existence.
Moreover, the author's claim that consciousness cannot exist without the cosmos is also flawed. While it may be true that consciousness as we know it is a product of the physical brain and thus dependent on the cosmos for its existence, this does not preclude the possibility of other forms of consciousness that are not dependent on physical substrates.
In conclusion, the article presents a flawed argument that conflates atheism with materialism and makes unsubstantiated claims about the nature of death and consciousness. A more nuanced understanding of these concepts requires careful consideration of both philosophical and scientific perspectives.
Format much?
Atheism isn't a believe in something. It's simply a reaction of nonbelief to a belief someone else holds about a god or gods. Without theism, there are no atheist. You may as well ask someone to prove the meaning of life in a universe where Santa Claus isn't real. If you want to debate the meaning of life, go for it, but you can't put the burden on someone to disprove your beliefs about what you think it's about That burden is on you.