Instigator / Pro

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Topic

#4488

Disney/Anime: Tragic Character Clash.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

whiteflame

Tags

anime

Parameters

Publication date: 05.18.2023 12:25AM
Last updated date: 07.03.2023 12:32PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Three days
Max argument characters: 10,500
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

whiteflame

1724

rating

debates

88.89%

won

Description

On-balance.

Pro will argue Anakin Skywalker is the most tragic character in fiction. In Round 1, Con chooses a character from any series in anime and argue theirs is the most tragic.

The suggested intro format for round 1 will be.:
Character Name-
Personality-
Series-
Themes-
Backstory-
Archetype-

Definitions:

Tragic Character- The protagonist of a tragic story or drama, in which, despite their virtuous and sympathetic traits and ambitions, they ultimately meet defeat, suffering, or even an untimely end.

Rounds
1. Only introduction format arguments in Round 1. No rebuttals.

2. Constructive arguments/rebuttals.

3. Constructive arguments/rebuttals

4. Rebuttals

5. Closing arguments/rebuttals

(If Con wishes, I’ll make any changes.)

I look forward to the discussion, whiteflame!

Round 1

Sir.Lancelot

05.18.2023 05:52AM

Pro

Thanks for accepting, whiteflame!

Name: Anakin Skywalker

Personality: It would be easy to throw in a few adjectives like.: Competitive, quick-tempered, rebellious, melodramatic, optimistic, naive, and a hopeless romantic. But none of this really describes Anakin in depth.

Anakin is very loyal to the ones he cares about and ruthless in protecting them in any way that he can. He dislikes rules because he believes they are holding him back from reaching his true potential. This makes him impulsive and eager to take shortcuts or cut corners.

Anakin is also very codependent, especially regarding his relationships with his fiance/wife Padme and the Chancellor Palpatine.

Despite Anakin always complaining about his mentor Obi-Wan and the Jedi constantly holding him back, it is easy to see Anakin as pessimistic or even cynical but these are momentary reactions to the circumstances he’s been forced into. In Anakin’s natural state, he is very cheerful and positive about the future. From believing in his ability to become the most powerful Jedi ever and stop people from dying and his confidence he can save Padme.

Series: Star Wars (PQ trilogy, Kenobi Series, Rogue One, and the OG trilogy.)

Themes: Slavery, rebellion, corruption, and eventually redemption.

Backstory: Born as a slave on Tatooine to single mother Schmi, he would frequently engage in pod-racing competitions. It isn’t until a visit from Qui-Gon Jinn that Anakin is adopted by the Jedi Council and begins training. Having been gifted with the title of The Chosen One, Anakin learns it is his destiny to destroy the Sith and bring balance to The Force.

Unfortunately, The Jedi’s failure to intervene and save Anakin’s mother leads her to be killed by a barbaric species known as Tusken Raiders. It is this tragedy that starts off as the catalyst which sets off everything in motion that slowly transforms Anakin into Vader.

When Anakin gets visions, he returns to his home planet of Tatooine only to discover his mother had been sold. When he finds her abducted by the Tusken Raiders, he loses control of his rage and slaughters the entire village, ignoring the pleas of Qui-Gon Jinn’s ghost to stop.

Archetype: The Chosen One, Fallen Hero, Byronic Hero, The Shadow/Villain.

whiteflame

05.19.2023 12:03AM

Con

Thank you, Sir.Lancelot. Doing a deep dive on these characters should be quite a bit of fun. Had my hands full picking one (lots of good tragedy out there), but here he is:

Character Name: Kiritsugu Emiya

Personality: Kiritsugu is brooding and conflicted. He seeks a utopia for the world and is willing to do anything to achieve it. His victories are merely means to an end – he’s battle-hardened, taking no joy in victory.

However, this is largely an attempt for Kiritsugu to distance himself from his emotions. He consistently shows his devotion to achieve his dream, but when he considers the man he’s become to get there, he engages in a heaping helping of self-loathing. He also experiences fits of despair and terror, particularly when he recalls the costs of his actions for his family. He even hates that sentiment, holding the belief that smaller sacrifice is always best, regardless of who is sacrificed in the process. Kiritsugu knows he must betray those he loves to see his dream through to the end, but cannot distance himself from those he loves. He has dedicated his life to self-sacrifice in order to achieve his ideals.

Series: Fate/Zero and, to a lesser extent, Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works

Themes: Cruelty of war and human nature, selfishness vs. sacrifice, utilitarianism vs. deontology, what it means to be a hero, idealism vs. reality

Backstory: Kiritsugu’s mother died shortly after his birth and he spent much of his childhood on the run from the Mage’s Association with his father. In one of the few places they stayed for a while, he became friends and fell in love with a young girl, who subsequently became a vampire due to Kiritsugu’s father’s work. Though he had the chance to kill her, Kiritsugu refused. The result was that the village was wiped out, Kiritsugu killed his father, and was taken in by a freelancer named Natalia.

He trained under Natalia, hunting dangerous mages as he learned Magecraft, tracking, assassination, and became proficient with a variety of weapons. In their last mission together, Kiritsugu is forced to shoot down a plane with Natalia onboard in order to prevent an outbreak that could have turned countless people into Ghouls.

Before the events of Fate/Zero, he trained a young soldier named Maiya Hisau as he was trained, the two becoming lovers. He met his wife, Isisviel von Einzbern, and they had a child together, a little girl whom she believed could afford him hope after the upcoming Fourth Grail War. His role in the War is largely played out in the background, as he ambushes other Masters and works with Saber, the Heroic Spirit he summons during the early stages of the War as a Servant of the Einzbern family to fight for the Holy Grail.

Archetype: Anti-Hero, Jaded Lead, Utopian/Perseverer, the Martyr

Round 2

Sir.Lancelot

05.21.2023 05:00PM

Pro

There will now be four parts for this I wish to closely examine and discuss that I believe makes Anakin the more tragic character than Kiritsugu Emiya.

Potential/Misguided Destiny/The Bad Ending: The most powerful people known in the galaxy at the time are Yoda and Darth Sidious. Midichlorians ultimately determine how much power a Force Wielder is capable of attaining.

Midichlorian Count

“Yoda’s clocks in at 17,700, and Darth Sidious is estimated to be about 20,000.”
“Anakin Skywalker is said to have had the largest Midi-chlorian count in Jedi history, which is around 28,000 to 30,000, with George Lucas insinuating it could be as high as 40,000.”

This means that Anakin has the ability/potential to surpass Sidious and Yoda by a huge gap. As it is The Chosen One’s destiny to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, the Jedi constantly prophesied that Anakin will be the person to do this.

And while it is inevitable that this destiny will be fulfilled, there are several ways in which it can play out. What ultimately comes to be is far from what the Jedi or Anakin himself predicted. And it is in this version that Anakin destroys the sith, but the jedi as well, and never reaches his potential or becomes the man he could have been, despite technically fulfilling the prophecy.

Presume you’re playing as the main character in a video game. The MC’s goal is divine and no matter what you do, the MC will accomplish something extraordinary at the end. But there are 8 endings.: 4 good and 4 bad. You end up making the worst choices and end up with the worst ending consequently, even though you did what the narration said you would do.

https://youtu.be/Tz1J-qYfTZI

That’s Anakin Skywalker’s ending. He will never destroy the sith on his own terms or be able to raise his children and live a happy and blessed life with Padme. The tragedy is that The Force never required Anakin to be good.

The Duo Life: Anakin has violated The Jedi Code. The Order forbids strong emotional attachments and Anakin has secretly married and impregnated Padme. He wishes to disclose this information, but Padme strongly advises him against it because the Jedi is all he has known. 2

The Nonsense Convo: The same nightmares that plagued Anakin to take action, regarding his mother being in danger have now returned. But this time, they are about Padme. Anakin realizes what must be done and so he seeks advice from Yoda. Instead of giving practical advice, Yoda warns of the dangers of negative feelings and tells him he needs to train himself to “let go of everything he fears to lose,” which IS the equivalent of telling someone to get over it.

Let’s look at this scene in context and see it from both their perspectives and why Yoda is in the wrong. 2

Anakin has just dealt with the death of his mother, someone he could have saved if he had acted fast enough according to his visions.
Now having dealt with tragedy, those same feelings and visions return to threaten Anakin to take quicker action to stop his wife from dying.
The vision is of Padme dying during childbirth. Anakin cannot confess this to Yoda because in doing so, he reveals he is married and that he has broken the Jedi Code and will promptly be expelled.
Anakin isn’t looking for emotional counseling to get over his feelings, he is seeking advice to stop the visions in his dreams from playing out in the future.

Now consider this from Yoda’s perspective.

Yoda is over 900 years old. He has outlived many friends and students, so death is just another Tuesday for him.
A few centuries of experience of counseling and leading Jedi meant he should have been more sympathetic to Anakin and better able to communicate with him.
He realizes Anakin is young and has not lived long enough to realize what must be done with such strong emotions.

This is now where Anakin becomes vulnerable to the Devil’s manipulation.

False Hope/Temptation: Anakin meets with Chancellor Palpatine in private. Palpatine goads Anakin into what is seemingly regular “small talk,” but then Palpatine tells Anakin of a story regarding a Sith Lord with the power to save people from death. This is The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis, The Wise.

Anakin demands to know if it is possible to learn this power and how a predator isolates its prey. Palpatine preys on Anakin’s fear of Padme dying and distrust of the Jedi by further amplifying his distrust with comments like, “It’s a story the Jedi would never tell you.” But the final nail in the coffin when Anakin wishes to know if it’s possible to learn this power, Sidious’s response is, “Not from a Jedi.” 3

whiteflame

05.24.2023 03:04PM

Con

Thank you to Sir.Lancelot for inviting me to debate this. Haven't done a debate like this before, but I love the concept and look forward to it.

I. Framework

What elevates one character's tragedy above another? It would be easy to say that more instances of tragedy = more tragedy, but not all tragedies are equally tragic. A greater tragedy is one with which the audience can resonate. We may not live in a galaxy far, far away fighting with space wizards nor do we live in a reality where mages summon heroes of the past to fight for a mythical object, but we can empathize with the characters' plights regardless of the world. So, how to connect? Aristotle produced a detailed description of the elements of tragedy that encompasses this well.[1] I’m going to focus on a few key elements.

1) Tragedies inflicted by the character themselves, particularly self-inflicted tragedies or those on their loved ones, outweigh those inflicted externally.

It’s tragic when someone is hit by lightning or ends up victim to a terrorist attack because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but those circumstances are tragic, and would be equally for anyone. Character tragedy is necessarily character-driven, meaning in some way precipitated or actively caused by the character. The more their decisions affect that tragedy, the more tragic it becomes.

2) Tragedies that result in anagnorisis outweigh those where the character learns nothing.

When the character sees the error of their ways and its ramifications, it is a moment of anagnorisis.[2] Understanding that one was responsible for a given negative outcome and seeking some form of redemption demonstrate that the harm goes deeper than just how the character was affected by the tragedy; they know they did wrong and have a desire to address it.

3) Tragedies that result in greater punishment than what is apparently warranted outweigh those with lesser punishments.

Have the characters acted in such a manner that their punishment is warranted? If they are enduring excessive suffering via their punishment, whether externally or self-imposed, that is tragic. If their punishment is equal to or less than their crime, that is necessarily less tragic because their actions more directly precipitated that punishment - it’s retributive rather than tragic.

I’ll return to these as weighing mechanisms next round when I compare our characters. For the remainder of this round, I’ll focus on Kiritsugu Emiya, as his life exhibits these traits on multiple levels.

II. My Case

In Fate/Zero, the aim of its central characters is to obtain the Holy Grail, a device that will grant their most deeply held wish.[3] It’s a beacon of possibility that will lead most of them to die without obtaining it. Even someone who obtains the wish, as I’ll show later, has to make that wish knowing that it is tainted, similar to the Monkey's Paw; the inevitable twisting of that wish similarly distorts their hope.[4]

As for Kiritsugu, what separates him from the rest is that his intentions are utilitarian: sacrifice the few for the sake of the many. He employs brutal methods when necessary to achieve his aims. That aim is a utopia: an end to all warfare, bloodshed and suffering, a true world peace.[5] My contentions will follow his tragedy from its early stages through to its finale. All the information provided here can be found in detail in the following link.[6] Where feasible/appropriate, I will also give video links for specific scenes.

C1: Kiritsugu’s Past/The Tragedy of Connection

a) Childhood

Kiritsugu grew up on the run with his father. In a year they spent on Alimango Island, his father had an assistant in Shirley, a young girl about Kiritsugu’s age and his childhood crush. Due to his father’s research, Shirley is transformed into a vampire, begging for Kiritsugu to kill her. He ran away instead, which resulted in her rampage and a resultant purging of the village. Kiritsugu then confronts his father. He did not have the will to sever his bond with his friend, resulting in mass tragedy, but faced with the man who was responsible and who willing to commit to further acts like this, Kiritisugu numbed himself to any feelings for his father and killed him in cold blood.[7] This was the birth of his utilitarian mindset and of his efforts to discard his humanity for the sake of a larger goal.

b) Training

Kiritsugu is raised and trained by Natalia, a woman who could give him the tools to deliver on his form of justice and who would also serve as his mother figure for many years. She brought out his capabilities as a killer, which he would use to end the lives of untold numbers of people in pursuit of his version of utilitarianism. And their last mission together tests him. Natalia is onboard a plane on which an infection is rapidly spreading, one that will certainly cause the deaths of countless people should the plane land. Stationed on a ship near her destination, Kiritsugu elected to shoot down the plane, killing her in the process and severing his only remaining connection in a devastating scene.[8]

C2: Kiritsugu’s Methods/The Tragedy of Execution

By this point, Kiritsugu had a plan to achieve his utopia using the raison d’etre of the series: the Holy Grail.

a) Love and Sacrifice

First, he meets and falls in love with Irisviel von Einsburn. He does this knowing full well that she is a homunculus that will serve as the Holy Grail's vessel, meaning that she will necessarily be sacrificed to achieve his ideals. They have a child together named Illya, whom Iris believes will serve as his source of hope after the Fourth Holy Grail War. Kiritsugu rejects opportunities to get close to them, knowing that he will cause the death of Iris and deprive Illya of her mother.[9] Even as he carries her, he notes that his eight-year-old daughter weighs less than a rifle.

Iris does become the Grail, but the tragedy doesn’t end with her death. Illya grows up despising Kiritsugu, thinking that he abandoned her mother to die. He is barred from seeing her again, and dies without her.

b) Wreaking Trauma

Over the course of the war, Kiritsugu, Iris, his Servant Saber, and a young soldier he’s trained named Maiya Hisau (who was also his lover) confront other Magi with their Servants. He both directly and indirectly takes multiple lives, the most tragic of which being Kayneth and his fiancé Sola-Ui. In a previous match-up, Kiritsugu debilitated Kayneth, but he was still active with a Servant of his own: Lancer. Kiritsugu held Sola-Ui at gunpoint and demanded that Kayneth order Lancer to take his own life before having Maiya kill both Kayneth and Sola-Ui in cold blood to fully remove them as obstacles to the Grail.[10, it repeats towards the end]

Maiya herself was always a tool raised to be used and disposed of. She became a reflection of Kiritsugu, a representation of his own abuse and self-hatred. In the end, he is unable to let her die without regret, crying for her as she dies.

3. Kiritsugu’s Finale/The Tragedy of Hubris

The other tragedies I’ve listed above all culminate in this one, the true tragedy of Kiritsugu’s character. The above history establishes what shaped his ideals and what he has been willing to do in order to see them through. Now, those ideals will be put to the test.

Iris becomes the Grail. Kiritsugu meets the spirit of the Grail, taking Iris’s form, which details how it would grant him his utopia: the Grail will massacre everyone except Illya and resurrect Iris, making their family whole and removing any challenges to their peace. This is both Kiritsugu’s deepest wish, one he could never admit even to himself, and the only way that he (and therefore the Grail) could conceptualize a method to achieve world peace.

Faced with the most extreme application of his ideals, Kiritsugu rejects the Grail. He kills illusions of his wife and child before returning to his world and orders Saber to destroy the Grail. Even this choice wreaks havoc as the contents of the Grail spilled into the streets of the city he was in, causing a massive fire that destroyed much of it and killed most of the inhabitants.[11]

Kiritsugu, desperate to claw any hope out of the despair, could only save Shirou, a child nearly lost in the blaze. He adopted and raised Shirou, suffering from a curse brought on by the Grail that results in a slow, painful loss of his limbs, senses and strength before an early death at 34. He passed on his ideals in the vain hope that Shirou could become the hero of justice that Kiritsugu could not.

III. Conclusion

Kiritsugu is a case study in Greek Tragedy featuring his own choir in the Grail taking the form of his lost love. There is the usual form of terrible tragedy here - patricide, pseudo-matricide, sacrificing his wife and his relationship with his daughter, wreaking tragedy onto others, exhibiting remorse and seeking redemption - but it’s at the end of the series that his story reaches the pinnacle of tragedy.

This is a man whose ideals were forged in the fires of tragedy, whose entire drive in life was to see his vision of a utopia through to reality, undaunted by the numerous tragedies he would inflict on others and himself in the process. Yet, when faced with the opportunity to create that utopia, to fulfill a true wish he couldn’t even admit to himself, he chose instead to destroy the very object that could provide it, burning a city along with his dreams and digging through the rubble for the last dregs of hope he could find.

Kiritsugu’s tragedy is soul-breaking and brought on by his own weaknesses and failings. In the end, his death almost seems merciful after a life of sacrifice where his efforts to achieve a utopia for all humankind were "rewarded" with suffering.

Back over to you, Pro.

1. https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/what-is-a-tragic-hero-definition/

2. https://www.britannica.com/art/anagnorisis

3. https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Holy_Grail

4. https://interestingliterature.com/2019/08/a-short-analysis-of-w-w-jacobs-the-monkeys-paw/

5. https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya#Personality

6. https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya#Fate/Zero

7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW5Wl4Qs01w

8. https://www.tiktok.com/@rickerick_/video/7141551885059624218

9. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg2tcIwLNRg

10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW5Wl4Qs01w

11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLMyYgZ6QpA&t=69s

Round 3

Sir.Lancelot

05.24.2023 09:38PM

Pro

For the record, I will say that I like Con’s framework and agree to it. This definitely fits Anakin’s character in so many ways.

“1) Tragedies inflicted by the character themselves, particularly self-inflicted tragedies or those on their loved ones, outweigh those inflicted externally.”

In many ways, Anakin’s tragedy was planned from the beginning. Sidious always planned on making Anakin's apprentice, but Anakin’s own choices dug himself into a deeper hole.

Defying Mace Windu’s order and then chopping off Mace’s arm to save Darth Sidious’s life was when it was too late to turn back. 1 It is also when Anakin gets officially renamed Darth Vader. Sidious urges Vader that they must hurry before the Jedi learn of their treachery and kill them both.
So Vader proceeds to the Jedi Temple with his first order of Order 66 (operation to eliminate all the Jedi) which is to kill anyone at the Jedi temple. His first victims are children and any of the other jedi present. 2
When Anakin’s wife Padme confronts him about his genocide and he spots Obi-Wan, he assumes he has been set up by his partner to be ambushed, so he force-chokes her in anger. 3
After trying and failing to kill Obi-Wan, he is sliced in half and abandoned by his former master to burn alive. This severing of Anakin’s limbs reduced his power potential and the burning caused irreparable damage that confined him to a cybernetic suit the rest of his life. 4

The tragedy of the last scene is that Vader/Anakin makes one last plea for Obi-Wan to rescue him, but Obi-Wan refuses his cry for help (This part is absent from the movie.), so Vader shouts that he hates him. They will meet again after this and trust me when I say, their rendezvous is far from pleasant.

Ten years before the events of the OG trilogy.

“2) Tragedies that result in anagnorisis outweigh those where the character learns nothing.

When the character sees the error of their ways and its ramifications, it is a moment of anagnorisis.[2] Understanding that one was responsible for a given negative outcome and seeking some form of redemption demonstrate that the harm goes deeper than just how the character was affected by the tragedy; they know they did wrong and have a desire to address it.”

Anakin has in some ways been a slow learner/late bloomer. It takes a while to process his grief and denial, but he has made several attempts to undo his actions.

When he rises as Vader from the Operating Table, Sidious gaslights him into thinking that Vader was the one who killed his wife, so he immediately comes to regret his impulsiveness. 5 Vader also lashes out with the Force to attack Sidious but is quickly tamed when Sidious tortures him with lightning in retaliation.

Sometime during his Sith career, Vader goes to the spirit realm in an attempt to resurrect Padme. The doppelganger rejects him and Vader is unsuccessful so he gives up, realizing that Padme is gone forever. 6

After The Empire Strikes Back, when Vader learns of Luke, he slowly begins to waver in the Dark Side and begin his transformation back to the Light. He meets one of Padme’s look-alikes (her handmaiden) and allows her and the Rebels to escape, demonstrating an act of mercy that angered Sidious. This act of mercy did not go unforgotten, as Sidious declares Vader a traitor and destroys his cybernetics, and strands him on the fiery banks of Mustafar like Obi-Wan did all those years ago. In the eyes of Sidious, Vader had committed treason and needed to be broken.

This is why when Luke and Vader talk in Return of The Jedi, Vader’s original offer of overthrowing The Emperor with his son is off the table. Sidious had truly broken him. Here are two instances of character dialogue and the context.

Luke: “Come with me.”

Vader: “Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don’t know the Power of the Dark Side! I MUST obey my Master!”

7 (2:19)

Vader no longer has the same enthusiasm he did in the last movie of fighting Darth Sidious because he was truly broken at this point. He also didn’t say he enjoys obeying his master, but that he must. Implying reluctance.

Luke: “I will not turn. And you’ll be forced to kill me.”

Vader: “If that is your destiny.”

Luke: “Search your feelings, Father. You can’t do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your Hate.”

Vader: “It is too late for me, Son.”

7 (2:35)

“3) Tragedies that result in greater punishment than what is apparently warranted outweigh those with lesser punishments.”

It is too easy to condemn Vader and judge him as deserving as the fate he is currently suffering. While eternal suffering is a punishment for crime, it is the same but also something different for Vader.

His seemingly prolonged suffering shares a symbiotic relationship with his crime. The more pain he feels, the more others suffer.

What kind of pain does Vader really deal with? The physical is more gory and morbid than one could imagine and the emotional pain is spiritual.

When Vader was first burnt on Mustafar, Sidious could have minimized the damage by having his skin and organs replaced.
Sidious WANTED him to suffer, so he deliberately chose the most painful suit ever that would be enough to sustain him, but not heal him.
Instead of receiving an organic transplant, Vader received synthetic skin. But the artificial flesh is constantly decaying, so Vader constantly has to undergo painful surgery to get it replaced so he doesn’t die from an infection.

So earlier, I pointed out that Obi-Wan and Vader would meet again and not on the best of terms.

When Obi-Wan first learns Vader is still alive and searching for him, he is beyond horrified. 7.5 (0:44)

Vader and Obi-Wan’s First Meeting Since Mustafar

Vader committed genocide in front of Obi-Wan just to lure him out of hiding. Obi-Wan asks his former apprentice what he has become and Vader replies that he is what Obi-Wan made him.
The fight proceeds with Obi-Wan retreating and then Vader eventually igniting a fire and scorching Obi-Wan out of revenge for leaving him to burn all those years back.

Vader and Obi-Wan’s Rematch

When Obi-Wan finally gets his powers back, he duels Vader only for the latter to bury him in debris and leave him for dead. Unbeknownst to Vader, Obi-Wan was alive the whole time and after sneaking up on Vader, he takes him off-guard and proceeds to destroy his respirator and break his helmet in half.

Vader is seen wheezing and we finally see Anakin’s face for the first time in years. Obi-Wan apologizes for everything that happened, Vader seems to accept his apology at first and even offers sympathy, but all that hope is killed when Vader says in Anakin’s voice, that he killed Anakin. And even gives a demented smile.

9 (6:54)

The Actual Tragedy

This is the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker.

He sold his soul to the Devil to save his wife, but it was all in vain.

Only to end up his servant and eventually transform into something worse.

This is where people misunderstand the Star Wars franchise. It is not a story about Luke Skywalker becoming a Jedi and getting cool powers, it is a story about saving the soul of Anakin Skywalker. The latter is the main character of the franchise because he ultimately IS Star Wars.

whiteflame

05.27.2023 02:30AM

Con

Thanks again, Sir.Lancelot.

I. Overview

So far, Pro hasn’t talked about Kiritsugu, much less made any comparisons between our two characters. The latter will be the focus of this round for me. We’re comparing which of our two characters are more tragic; it’s not enough for each of us to establish that our characters are tragic nor even to demonstrate that they are the most tragic or important characters in their respective universes.

I’ve provided a framework, which Pro agreed to use, that focuses on three points of comparison that we can use to weigh Kiritsugu’s and Anakin’s relative tragedies against one another. Both characters are tragic. They both inflict many of their tragedies, they both exhibit anagnorisis at some point, and they are both punished for at least some of their actions. However, these elements reside on a scale from more to less tragic, and it is my position that Kiritsugu resides at the more tragic ends of those scales than Anakin is. To demonstrate this, I will compare how well each character embodies each element. If the source for any claim I'm making has already appeared on either side of this debate, it will not be sourced again here.

II. Comparative Analysis

C1. Self-Infliction

a. Kiritsugu

Kiritsugu directed his own actions and tragedies throughout the story.

He ran from Shirley rather than killing her as requested, resulting in her death and those of everyone in the village. He then killed his father, partially out of vengeance for Shirley and the village and partially because he posed a continued threat to others.
He went with Natalia, knowing that doing so will turn him into a killer. He shot down Natalia’s plane without direction.
He met and fell in love with Iris, choosing to have a child with her despite knowing she would die and he would estrange his child.
He used and discarded Maiya.
He killed numerous Mages.
He sought the Holy Grail to achieve his utopia, then chose to destroy it against the wishes of every other party involved.

Every action that he took from his early childhood to his death is both directed and acted out by him. He was the ringmaster of this circus, and the resulting tragedies were his burdens to bear.

b. Anakin

By contrast, Anakin’s tragedies were often orchestrated by others, influenced by his friction with the Jedi Order, or driven by expectation.

As Pro put it, “Anakin’s tragedy was planned from the beginning.”

He followed Sidious’s direction when he cut off Mace’s arm leading to his death, just as he did when he killed Dooku.[1] Even the murder of the younglings is driven entirely by Sidious’s orders - it was part of Order 66.
Sidious used Anakin’s drive to keep Padme safe as fuel to drive him to the Dark Side. He then stokes Anakin’s anger and despair by telling him that he killed Padme in his anger, and those feelings and impulses typify Anakin going forward.
More than just emotionally, Anakin became Sidious’s puppet after receiving his cybernetic suit, whether because of the threat of violent reprisal from Sidious or his need for regular skin transplants. Any choice Anakin made past this point that helps Sidious was no longer his alone.

Pro also brought up a scene where Yoda essentially tells Anakin to “get over it” with regards to his fears and nightmares. Yoda made Anakin feel like he was an outsider within the Jedi Order making him, as Pro put it, “vulnerable to the Devil’s manipulation.”
But Obi-Wan did far worse. Obi-Wan actively pushed Anakin to drop his attachment to Padme [2] and, in their fateful encounter on Mustafar, he chose not to be merciful and instead subjected Anakin to a slow, torturous near-death, actions that drove him away from the Jedi and solidified his resolve as a Sith, respectively.[3]
Anakin had no control whatsoever over the burden of his high midichlorian count or his status as “the Chosen One,” yet these factors ensured that he was destined to bring balance to the force. If his destiny was already decided based on factors beyond his control, it cannot be said that he had full autonomy in his actions.

C2. Anagnorisis

a. Kiritsugu

Kiritsugu demonstrated this with nearly every turn in his life.

When he refused to end Shirley’s life, his sense of responsibility for the resulting deaths drove him to patricide and to kill others who would constitute a similar threat with Natalia’s help, eventually resulting in his pseudo-matricide. This also became the foundation for an ideal that he would carry to the Holy Grail.
His ongoing battle with self-hatred shows his continued remorse for every action he takes, which plays out in self-destructive behaviors such as distancing himself from his family and training Maiya to join in his suffering as his lover and confidant.
He tried to repent when faced with the knowledge that the realization of his ideal would also murder countless people. Even in that effort, the damage he caused led him to dig through burning rubble to find survivors, searching for any glimmer of hope in that despair.

b. Anakin

Anakin clearly showed regret for some of his choices, as Pro has already detailed. However, Anakin showed no regret for many of the examples Pro mentions and for several that he conspicuously leaves out:

His murder of the younglings
Hunting down and killing Jedi like Obi-Wan
The capture, imprisonment and torture of his daughter Leia
The dismemberment of his son Luke
Killing untold numbers of rebels
The destruction of multiple planets (Despayre, Alderaan), inhabited moons (Jedha) and cities (Scarif)[4]

That list focuses solely on his actions and orders, leaving out any impact he had on the empire’s actions on various other planets. I grant that he demonstrated some regret over other decisions and that he showed mercy one time to Padme’s handmaiden, but on the whole, Anakin barely seeks or achieves any redemption beyond his final act to take out Sidious (which failed [5]).

C3. Punishment vs. Crime

a. Kiritsugu

Kiritsugu was guilty of numerous acts of barbarity, including:

Being judge, jury and executioner for a variety of Magi including his father
The harms he inflicted on those closest to him including Iris, Illya and Maiya
The decisions that ended untold lives on Alimango Island and Fuyuki City, even if he did not intend to harm those people

His punishment was continuous suffering featuring self-loathing, putting his body and life on the line for his ideal, the death of his wife, rejection by his daughter, and a curse that brought him weakness and pain after the Fourth Holy Grail ended. At an existential level, it cost him his reason for moving forward, the very drive that had brought him to fight for the Holy Grail in the first place. He burned his dreams along with them when he destroyed the Grail. If it is possible for a man to suffer more for these crimes, I don’t know how.

b. Anakin

I’ve already covered Anakin’s crimes, and while their scale is certainly larger, other aspects of his crimes that set him apart, particularly as they relate to when his punishments occurred and what they were punishing. Obi-Wan’s first and second duels with Anakin and the resulting damage are certainly punishment, but much as the damage of the first was particularly horrific, at best, it functions as punishment for everything up to that point. For everything that happens afterward, Pro has provided a total of three punishments, all of which were inflicted by Sidious.

Every action Sidious takes to harm him functions largely as a means to exert control over Anakin, both by actively harming him and by increasing his dependence on Sidious’s resources.

The first punishment results from Anakin attacking Sidious, which he did out of anger that Sidious stoked
The second resulted from Anakin showing mercy, which may have resulted from lingering attachments to Padme (the woman was Padme’s handmaiden and body double) rather than regret

The aim of both punishments was to ensure that Anakin knew his place. These weren’t punishments for his crimes - if anything, they were punishment for challenging Sidious’s authority.

While Sidious also inflicted the third punishment to punish his disloyalty - Force lightning that ended his life - the difference is that taking this action was also him taking responsibility for his crimes, particularly one of them was writhing in pain on the floor in front of him. His pain and death were punishment for the crime of working for Sidious and trying to kill Luke. That being said, aside from the duel on Mustafar, this is his big punishment for his crimes, and… yeah, I’d say his crimes were worth more than just one moment of redemption, no matter how meaningful.

III. Conclusion

On each of these elements, Kiritsugu’s tragedies outweigh Anakin’s.

While the vast majority of Kiritsugu’s tragedy resulted from his choices and actions, Anakin’s tragedy was molded by the choices and actions of others.

Kiritsugu also demonstrated anagnorisis throughout the events of Fate/Zero, repeatedly recognizing his failings. This was also reflected in his punishment, as both those that are self-inflicted and externally imposed are placed in response to his crimes and take place over much of the series.

Anakin showed limited remorse for his actions, and regardless of his ability to make those choices, the lack of anagnorisis throughout much of his character arc limited his capacity to evoke tragedy from some of his most despicable actions. Anakin suffered for some of his choices, but he faced no punishment for many of his actions. He truly believed, as he did when he helped found it, that he “brought peace, freedom, justice and security to [his] Empire.”[6] He did not suffer more than he deserved, and his redemption was surface level at best.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd5hlOKGvhY

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJWnfNB_H9k

3. https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-jedi-code-obi-wan-jerk/

4. https://www.thegamer.com/star-wars-death-star-starkiller-base-every-planet-destroyed/

5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz6PgdhhkUM

6.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Me_fcU1ZA

Round 4

Sir.Lancelot

05.29.2023 01:29PM

Pro

Rebuttals

While it is true that Anakin’s destiny was already foreshadowed from the beginning, there were many versions for how it could play out. For instance, Anakin never had to become Darth Vader to overthrow Sidious, but his actions sealed his fate.

“However, Anakin showed no regret for many of the examples Pro mentions and for several that he conspicuously leaves out:
His murder of the younglings”

Anakin’s regret and remorse is shown when Anakin is crying on the bridge on Mustafar. 1

“Hunting down and killing Jedi like Obi-Wan”

Vader’s whole existence is based on regret & remorse, much like Kiritsugu. But he is beyond the point of no return, so he justifies his actions to himself constantly. His regret & remorse fuels his self-loathing, which in turn fuels his suffering, strengthening his connection to the Dark Side. But where he and Kiritsugu differ is that Vader is not powerful enough to put an end to this cycle of violence because he is enslaved to Palpatine’s will.

“The capture, imprisonment and torture of his daughter Leia
The dismemberment of his son Luke
Killing untold numbers of rebels
The destruction of multiple planets (Despayre, Alderaan), inhabited moons (Jedha) and cities (Scarif)[4]”

Vader never wanted to harm Luke, he avoided it in their fight whenever possible. But Luke proved too much of a challenge, that maiming him was the only way Vader could put an end to his resistance.

When Anakin eventually passes and becomes a Force Ghost, he visits his daughter Leia to apologize for his crimes, but she refuses to forgive him.

https://youtu.be/FOO3Ne2iQ4c

“C3. Punishment vs. Crime

a. Kiritsugu

Kiritsugu was guilty of numerous acts of barbarity, including:
Being judge, jury and executioner for a variety of Magi including his father
The harms he inflicted on those closest to him including Iris, Illya and Maiya
The decisions that ended untold lives on Alimango Island and Fuyuki City, even if he did not intend to harm those people
His punishment was continuous suffering featuring self-loathing, putting his body and life on the line for his ideal, the death of his wife, rejection by his daughter, and a curse that brought him weakness and pain after the Fourth Holy Grail ended. At an existential level, it cost him his reason for moving forward, the very drive that had brought him to fight for the Holy Grail in the first place. He burned his dreams along with them when he destroyed the Grail. If it is possible for a man to suffer more for these crimes, I don’t know how.”

Because of Anakin’s strong will to save his wife, he did the unthinkable and it still failed.

Cutting off Mace Windu’s arm, eradicating his own community in Order 66.
Force-choking his wife Padme and trying to kill his former mentor Obi-Wan and then becoming an amputee with fourth degree burns everywhere.
Being led to believe that his actions killed his wife, and then being forced into becoming the galaxy’s biggest hitman.

Anakin’s dreams of becoming the greatest Jedi ever and living his life with his wife Padme and raising his children happily were replaced by Anakin losing everyone and everything he cares about.

If Anakin had chosen another option, which is to inform the Jedi Council of his marriage and his dreams, Padme could have been rescued. Anakin may have been expelled from the Jedi Order, but this would give him the opportunity to live life as a regular man. Free of the dogmatic restraints and restrictions of this Force Cult.

“b. Anakin

I’ve already covered Anakin’s crimes, and while their scale is certainly larger, other aspects of his crimes that set him apart, particularly as they relate to when his punishments occurred and what they were punishing. Obi-Wan’s first and second duels with Anakin and the resulting damage are certainly punishment, but much as the damage of the first was particularly horrific, at best, it functions as punishment for everything up to that point. For everything that happens afterward, Pro has provided a total of three punishments, all of which were inflicted by Sidious.

Every action Sidious takes to harm him functions largely as a means to exert control over Anakin, both by actively harming him and by increasing his dependence on Sidious’s resources.

The first punishment results from Anakin attacking Sidious, which he did out of anger that Sidious stoked
The second resulted from Anakin showing mercy, which may have resulted from lingering attachments to Padme (the woman was Padme’s handmaiden and body double) rather than regret
The aim of both punishments was to ensure that Anakin knew his place. These weren’t punishments for his crimes - if anything, they were punishment for challenging Sidious’s authority.

While Sidious also inflicted the third punishment to punish his disloyalty - Force lightning that ended his life - the difference is that taking this action was also him taking responsibility for his crimes, particularly one of them was writhing in pain on the floor in front of him. His pain and death were punishment for the crime of working for Sidious and trying to kill Luke. That being said, aside from the duel on Mustafar, this is his big punishment for his crimes, and… yeah, I’d say his crimes were worth more than just one moment of redemption, no matter how meaningful.”

Anakin’s suit is designed to inflict pain and suffering, and serves as a torture chamber. A reminder of Anakin’s failure at Mustafar at the hands of Obi-Wan. The suit is an entrapment device which restricts his mobility and causes him physical pain through inserted needles. It is obsolete technology that Sidious deliberately chose to keep Vader vulnerable.

Vader cannot redeem himself because the power gap between him and Sidious keeps him loyal to the Dark Side. There is no turning back at any point and he can only carry out Sidious’s bidding. Because of this, Anakin’s physical pain and mental suffering is far greater than that of Kiritsugu.

As stated previously, the severity of Anakin’s injuries keeps him in a perpetual state of agony and the treatment is also painful. (The constant skin surgeries he requires….Ouch)

Requires the respirator to support his breathing and cannot live for long without it otherwise.
Cannot eat or drink regular foods anymore, and has to rely on intravenous feeding for the rest of his life.
The suit is lame and lacks flexibility. While it compensates for its lack of mobility with brute strength, it doesn’t change the fact that the suit’s weight and structure makes Vader clumsy and slow. He cannot lift a lightsaber over his shoulders without causing a huge burden of pain on himself.
The suit’s respirator is put on his chest-plate, making it an obvious weakness in fights. And the insertion of needles puts Anakin in pain.

“III. Conclusion

On each of these elements, Kiritsugu’s tragedies outweigh Anakin’s.

While the vast majority of Kiritsugu’s tragedy resulted from his choices and actions, Anakin’s tragedy was molded by the choices and actions of others.

Kiritsugu also demonstrated anagnorisis throughout the events of Fate/Zero, repeatedly recognizing his failings. This was also reflected in his punishment, as both those that are self-inflicted and externally imposed are placed in response to his crimes and take place over much of the series.

Anakin showed limited remorse for his actions, and regardless of his ability to make those choices, the lack of anagnorisis throughout much of his character arc limited his capacity to evoke tragedy from some of his most despicable actions. Anakin suffered for some of his choices, but he faced no punishment for many of his actions. He truly believed, as he did when he helped found it, that he “brought peace, freedom, justice and security to [his] Empire.”[6] He did not suffer more than he deserved, and his redemption was surface level at best.”

Anakin’s life was to be a slave to someone else.

He was a slave as a child, who was forced to abandon his mother and become a slave to the Jedi. The Jedi’s inability to save his mother led to her being killed and Anakin was unable to save her in time.

So now, Anakin escapes the enslavement of the Jedi only to become a slave to Darth Sidious for the rest of his life. It is quite ironic that despite escaping a life of slavery only to end up in another that makes Anakin/Vader the more tragic character.

Comparing who’s tragedy is worse/more self-inflicted

We know Anakin originally had the potential to become more powerful than The Emperor.

Even when Anakin first becomes Vader, it isn’t out of a deep loyalty to the Dark Side or love for Sidious. If anything, Anakin/Vader is disgusted by Sidious and tells Padme of his plan to dispose of/kill him.

However, when Anakin is ultimately defeated by Obi-Wan, he is sliced in half and burnt. He loses too many midichlorians, so any chance of defeating or overthrowing Sidious is gone and he is forever condemned to be his puppet.

If Anakin hadn’t leapt at Obi-Wan, he would have successfully killed The Emperor much sooner. It was one mistake that cost Vader everything about his Sith career.

Con had a higher quantity of self-inflicted moments, but I believe the significance of mine far outweighs Kiritsugu’s.

Just think about everything Vader’s suit does to him!

Conclusion

I believe I can say I have demonstrated the impacts of Vader’s constant torment to outweigh that of Kiritsugu. We have observed the trials he went through and how he managed to dig himself into a bigger hole each and each time, until there was not enough hope for his escape.

whiteflame

05.30.2023 05:11PM

Con

Thanks again, Sir.Lancelot!

I’ll break this round into three pieces, one covering frameworks and one focused on rebutting Pro’s points for each of our characters.

I. Framework

Pro has not offered an alternate framework. He even agreed to use my framework. Yet, many of his arguments directly contradict my framework. So, I’ll reiterate my point on self-infliction:

1) Tragedies inflicted by the character themselves, particularly self-inflicted tragedies or those on their loved ones, outweigh those inflicted externally.

It’s tragic when someone is hit by lightning or ends up victim to a terrorist attack because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but those circumstances are tragic, and would be equally for anyone. Character tragedy is necessarily character-driven, meaning in some way precipitated or actively caused by the character. The more their decisions affect that tragedy, the more tragic it becomes.

It doesn’t matter what is behind the circumstance because it always results in the same outcome: someone or something else is the source of the tragedy, not the character. Even if the effect plagues the character long-term, as does Sidious for Anakin, it is still an external circumstance that is affecting the character. That circumstance is tragic, but it does not make the character tragic. Pro has had three rounds to argue why a tragic circumstances make a character tragic. He hasn’t. I’ve already established that being in control makes a given choice more tragic because when they’re the sole cause of the harms they inflict, the tragedy lies solely on them. Particularly when others made these choices, the tragedy that results is derived chiefly from them, not from the character who lacks autonomy.

II. Kiritsugu

Pro still hasn’t covered specifics about Kiritsugu in his arguments. Every comparison he has made to Kiritsugu is a generalization, and in each case he provides no evidence. As such, Pro concedes my evidence that Kiritsugu is a tragic character. He does make some comparative claims that I will cover, though as none of them cover issues of crime and punishment, he also concedes that Kiritsugu’s punishment vastly exceeds his crimes and Anakin’s crimes dwarf his punishment, as I argued last round. As for his few comparative claims, Pro argues that Sidious exerted control over Anakin’s actions in a way that no character did for Kiritsugu. Some responses.

First, as Pro does not cover Kiritsugu’s physical pain and mental suffering, all he manages to do is show that Anakin suffered, not that Kiritsugu suffered less. I’ve provided ample evidence that Kiritsugu suffered plenty.
Second, suffering ≠ tragedy. Suffering can be tragic, but what makes it tragic is the character both recognizing that they are the source of that suffering and acting in a way that shows that the character has learned something from it. Kiritsugu exhibited obvious regret, remorse and redemption for many of his actions in Fate/Zero. He didn’t just feel bad about what he’d done - he acted in a way that demonstrated he understood the flaw in his thinking and was seeking to change his future actions accordingly. He sought redemption by repenting for his past failures.

By contrast, Pro concedes that Anakin functioned solely as an enforcer of the tragedies that Sidious causes. Pro argues not just that Anakin didn’t redeem himself, but that he couldn’t. He was incapable of demonstrating anagnorisis. Considering that the Empire was inspired by Nazi Germany,[1] this argument fits… insofar as it’s akin to saying that Adolf Eichmann’s argument that he and other officers were “forced to serve as mere instruments” makes them tragic.[2] There is nothing tragic about shifting responsibility.
Additionally, this line of logic only makes Kiritsugu more tragic, since he was also faced with opponents who were stronger than him and his allies. He sought and obtained his redemption despite the odds being entirely against him (facing down Gilgamesh, the strongest Servant,[3] and Kirei Kotomine, a powerful Mage who terrified him[4]). Kiritsugu also takes full responsibility for his actions, enduring extended physical pain and debilitation for his actions (not just because someone else wanted him to suffer in order to control him), as well as mental suffering that stems from every choice he made.

Pro also argues that Kiritsugu’s tragedies are more numerous, but less significant. He doesn’t cite any examples, and he’s wrong. Kiritisugu’s tragedies had a deep significance, not just to a broad set of unknown people, but to everyone and everything he held dear, all of which he attributed chiefly to his own actions. Cross-apply the entirety of my last two rounds where I covered how those tragedies affect him and others in detail. By contrast, the vast majority of Anakin’s actions were driven by Sidious’s control over him. Even if you believe Anakin’s actions were more significant, you either believe that the responsibility for those actions isn’t Anakin’s or you believe he was shifting responsibility away from himself. In either case, Anakin’s tragedy is muted.

2. Anakin

Apart from the aforementioned “it’s all Sidious’s fault” argument and focusing on Anakin’s suffering, Pro’s points focus on two factors of Anakin’s character that he believes are tragic: the opportunities he missed or refused to take, and some isolated instances of remorse.

A. Opportunity Costs

Pro argues that because the possibility exists that Anakin could have acted differently, resulting in better outcomes for him and others, that makes him tragic. Three responses.

First, Anakin wasn’t going to make a different set of choices. Events beyond his control conspired against him, which made choosing another set of options seem impossible to him. Whether that’s his enslavement from birth, his mother’s death, the Jedi Order telling him to get over his feelings for Padme, his destiny as “The Chosen One” and all the expectations that came with it, the Emperor stoking his anger and frustration to his own ends, or the physical and mental torture the Emperor used to force his loyalty, the notion that Anakin would have acted differently simply because he could have is nothing but a pipe dream.
Second, this argument implies we know the outcome if a given choice or set of choices were made differently. Anakin, a skilled Force user, suddenly leaving the Jedi Order because he told them about his love for Padme is still dangerous and vulnerable to manipulation, since Padme is still vulnerable. An Anakin that escaped Mustafar unscathed may go on to lead the Empire himself as Sidious’s equal or superior, continuing to believe that he was bringing “peace, freedom, justice and security to [his] Empire”[5] as he extended his brutal campaign as an even more powerful Sith lord. Pro wants you to believe that there was a “good ending” for Anakin if things had gone differently, but even if Anakin had made different choices, there is no guarantee that things would have improved.
Third, I can play this game. If we can consider all possible choices Anakin could have made, then we can do the same for Kiritsugu. He could have opted out of the Fourth Holy Grail War entirely, sabotaging efforts to start it, potentially saving the life of his wife and living a peaceful, loving life with his daughter. Even if he joined it, he could have opted to use the Grail for a positive and easily obtainable wish, sparing others from a large tragedy and him from the curse of the Grail. And they all lived happily ever after. If opportunity costs make a character tragic, then our characters are equally tragic in that regard.

B. Regret, Remorse and Redemption

“Anakin… crying on a bridge on Mustafar” seems pretty weak compared with the mass slaughter of Force-sensitive children who trusted him to protect them. It’s also weak because it doesn’t result in any redemption. Anakin showed no subsequent interest in changing himself for the better, and his tears are cold comfort to all the rebels, Jedi and countless bystanders he murdered remorselessly after this.

That lack of redemption is a common thread for Anakin. By the time he visited his daughter as a Force ghost, he has lost his chance to be redeemed. It was a hollow gesture, one that was far too late and devoid of any meaningful effort. No wonder she refused to forgive him. His only real act of redemption was when he threw Sidious into the shaft of the battle station’s power core. It’s too little too late, and it also demonstrates that he was always “powerful enough to put an end to this cycle of violence” (he did this after being maimed and defeated by Luke, despite all the flaws in the suit’s design). So he always had the capacity for redemption, but up to this point, lacked the will to pursue it.

Pro also notably skips over several of Anakin's crimes for which he should feel some remorse. All that self-loathing Pro mentions never extended to cover his hunting down and killing Jedi, his dismemberment of his son (his lack of remorse after the fact isn’t justified by Pro’s claim that he had to “end to his resistance”), his mass killing of rebels, or his ordering the destruction of Despayre, Alderaan, Jedha, and Scarif. Anakin did exhibit self loathing for some of his acts, but he was still a monster who was ready and willing to inflict mass casualties without batting an eye. The continued suffering he dealt with as a result of his suit doesn’t serve as repentance for the actions he committed later, and even that is forced upon him, not an act of penitence.

III. Conclusion

Pro does scant little comparative analysis, instead focusing on Anakin’s suffering because that is all he has. I’ve shown over the last two rounds what typifies tragedy and how Kiritsugu better embodies the elements of tragedy that I’ve laid out. In the absence of other elements (which he hasn't defined or weighed in this debate), or meaningful responses to my specific comparisons of our characters, Pro has solely focused on establishing that Anakin is a tragic character (which both our characters are) and has yet to show that he is the more tragic character.

Back to Pro for one last round.

1. https://www.history.com/news/the-real-history-that-inspired-star-wars

2. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/how-the-nazis-defense-of-just-following-orders-plays-out-in-the-mind

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmiYN9b3N-g

4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35MII6WQSng

5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Me_fcU1ZA

Round 5

Sir.Lancelot

05.30.2023 08:19PM

Pro

Thanks for the discussion, whiteflame! Always down for an entertaining debate.

Final Round Announcement:

I’ll give an overview and background of both characters and give only rebuttals this last round.

Con’s Framework

Having agreed to use Con’s framework, I remind voters that whether one of the characters is deserving of forgiveness or not is irrelevant to who the more tragic character is.

Self-inflicted tragedies > Tragedies beyond the MC’s control

Anakin ignores Yoda’s advice and turns to the Dark Side.
Anakin’s slaughter of the Younglings, Jedi, and Separatists.
Anakin’s decision to force-choke his wife and try to kill his former mentor Obi-Wan.
Anakin disregards Obi-Wan’s warning to not counter the High Ground and then ends up a permanent amputee.

All of Anakin’s self-inflicted tragedies were committed out of his own free will, so Sidious’s years of scheming don’t really hold a candle to some actions.

Gaining realization and seeking redemption > The MC learns nothing and repeats his same mistakes

Anakin/Vader attempting to undo the murder of his wife by trying and failing to resurrect her.
Vader sparing Padme’s handmaiden and the Rebels.
Vader’s constant attempts to overthrow Palpatine.

Receiving a severe punishment than what is deserved > Getting a punishment that is lesser in significance

Losing everyone & everything you care about, including the potential to defeat the universe’s greatest evil, as well as becoming a servant to that evil.
Becoming an amputee with cybernetic prosthetics instead of organic replacements.
Not being able to eat, drink, or breathe normally. Having to always rely on IV nourishment and a respirator that pumps oxygen into your lungs for you.
Wearing a heavy and constricting suit that constantly inflicts pain on the body 24/7 and causes clumsiness and mobility issues in battle.
Instead of receiving organic skin transplants, getting artificial skin transfusion and then constantly undergoing painful surgeries to ensure the flesh doesn’t rot and cause death to the body from an infection.

Conclusion

Weighing these, I do believe the tragedies outweigh that of Kiritsugu. This isn’t to say that Anakin deserves forgiveness, but that these considerations do make him the more tragic character.

Rebuttals

“It doesn’t matter what is behind the circumstance because it always results in the same outcome: someone or something else is the source of the tragedy, not the character. That circumstance is tragic, but it does not make the character tragic. I’ve already established that being in control makes a given choice more tragic because when they’re the sole cause of the harms they inflict, the tragedy lies solely on them.

If we consider the impact of the circumstances leading to a cycle of bad and worser decisions taken by the character. This mitigates the effect of the circumstance being the catalyst/cause, and leaves more room for the character to carry the majority of the burden of responsibility.

Using this logic, we can infer this makes Anakin very tragic.

“II. Kiritsugu

Pro hasn’t covered specifics about Kiritsugu in his arguments. Every comparison he has made to Kiritsugu is a generalization, and in each case he provides no evidence. As for his few comparative claims, Pro argues that Sidious exerted control over Anakin’s actions in a way that no character did for Kiritsugu. Some responses.”

Through demonstrating the severity of Anakin’s punishment from my examples in proportion to Con’s, the evidence favors Anakin’s tragedy as outweighing Kiritsugu’s.

Anakin’s losses are greater than that of Kiritsugu’s.
The expectations of Anakin are higher than Kiritsugu’s.

Anakin is the sole proprietor of the punishment exceeding his crime because both the punishment and crime are symbiotic for Vader. Anakin never wanted to become The Devil.

The pain & suffering experienced by both characters is also significantly worse for Anakin. Extending the arguments about him being a fourth degree burn victim with fake skin and a permanent amputee, his life is chronic pain. Another major fact is that one’s power in the Dark Side is directly correlated with the extent of their anger/suffering.

Vader is the second most powerful being in the universe and is the embodiment of the Dark Side, meaning his suffering and pain succeed Kiritsugu’s.

“Suffering can be tragic, but what makes it tragic is the character both recognizing that they are the source of that suffering and acting in a way that shows that the character has learned something from it. Kiritsugu exhibited obvious regret, remorse and redemption for many of his actions in Fate/Zero. He didn’t just feel bad about what he’d done - he acted in a way that demonstrated he understood the flaw in his thinking and was seeking to change his future actions accordingly. He sought redemption by repenting for his past failures.
Pro argues not just that Anakin didn’t redeem himself, but that he couldn’t. He was incapable of demonstrating anagnorisis.
this line of logic only makes Kiritsugu more tragic, since he was faced with opponents who were stronger than him and his allies. He sought and obtained his redemption despite the odds being entirely against him (facing down Gilgamesh, the strongest Servant,[3] and Kirei Kotomine, a powerful Mage who terrified him[4]). Kiritsugu also takes full responsibility for his actions, enduring extended physical pain and debilitation for his actions, as well as mental suffering that stems from every choice he made.”

While Vader is stronger than most of his enemies, Vader has fought and defeated opponents greater than himself. Kirak broke Vader’s cybernetic leg and threw him off a cliff. But Vader returns and kills him.

The Emperor was always trying to dispose of Vader by finding someone stronger than him to take his place. Vader was constantly on his toes contending with dangerous enemies, but Vader overcame them each time.

Vader’s strongest enemy is Sidious and the only one he can’t defeat. Vader has attempted to undo his actions and seek redemption limitless times and failed all of them. 1

“2. Anakin

Apart from the aforementioned “it’s all Sidious’s fault” argument and focusing on Anakin’s suffering, Pro’s points focus on two factors of Anakin’s character that he believes are tragic: the opportunities he missed or refused to take, and some isolated instances of remorse.
Pro argues that because the possibility exists that Anakin could have acted differently, resulting in better outcomes for him and others, that makes him tragic.

If Anakin had made a few different choices, things are guaranteed to have gone differently. But Sidious is such a good gambler and mind-reader, that he predicted what choices Anakin would make.

Certain paths will foreshadow certain ends, but if those paths are departed from, the ends must change as per The Butterfly Effect.:

Anakin deciding to continue with acting upon his visions and saving Sidious’s life, believing he can rescue Padme is ultimately what doomed him. 2
But if Anakin had allowed Mace Windu to slay Sidious, Anakin would have been promoted to Jedi Master and his visions of Padme dying would have never come to pass. Although, the Jedi would have the resources to save her life in the worst case scenario.

““Anakin… crying on a bridge on Mustafar” seems pretty weak compared with the mass slaughter of Force-sensitive children who trusted him to protect them. It’s also weak because it doesn’t result in any redemption..”

Much like when Hercules was cursed by Hera into a state of momentary insanity and killed his wife and children, The Dark Side is described as being like overdosing on a strong stimulant drug (cocaine, meth) or similar to demonic possession.

Yoda himself says to Obi-Wan, “Twisted by the Dark Side, Young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is.” 4 (1:34)
Padme says to Anakin on Mustafar, “Obi-Wan is right. You’ve changed.” 5 (2:30)

When Anakin turns to the Dark Side and slaughters the younglings, he is no longer Anakin at that particular moment, but he isn’t completely Vader either because he still experiences Anakin’s reluctance.

In the context of emotions, Anakin has always been very weak. When he is crying on the bridge, the high of the Dark Side has worn off slightly and he has taken a moment of self-reflection on his choices, but realizing he is too late to turn back. He can’t redeem himself yet at this point because it is only the starting point of his villain arc.

“That lack of redemption is a common thread for Anakin. By the time he visited his daughter as a Force ghost, he has lost his chance to be redeemed. It was a hollow gesture, one that was far too late and devoid of any meaningful effort. No wonder she refused to forgive him. His only real act of redemption was when he threw Sidious into the shaft of the battle station’s power core. It’s too little too late, and it also demonstrates that he was always “powerful enough to put an end to this cycle of violence” (he did this after being maimed and defeated by Luke, despite all the flaws in the suit’s design). So he always had the capacity for redemption, but up to this point, lacked the will to pursue it.

When Vader throws Sidious to his death, he has no idea if he’ll succeed or not. It was a moment of impulse and a gamble that Vader was willing to make with his life. He happened to catch Sidious in a moment of weakness and got lucky.

Vader commits treason and makes many attempts to kill Sidious throughout his whole career.

That said, if Vader succeeded in killing The Emperor much earlier, we have a good way of predicting what would happen.

We know Vader is The Emperor’s puppet, and Sidious is the true evil responsible for Anakin’s turn. Without Sidious, Vader no longer has any incentive for genocide and spends the rest of his life redeeming himself.

Whether he begins his eventual turn back to the Light remains to be seen, but even if he stays with the Dark Side, he exchanges his obsolete suit for advanced armor that would enable him to give up his needless suffering and anger, leading to a calmer and civil Vader.

When he plots with his son in The Empire Strikes Back, he says to Luke, “With our combined strength, We can end this destructive conflict and bring Order to The Galaxy.” 4 (1:29) Hinting at a more peaceful, more diplomatic version compared to the tyrannical Empire.

whiteflame

06.01.2023 03:02AM

Con

#10

Thanks for the debate Sir.Lancelot. Always fun doing topics like this.

I’m going to focus on crystallizing what happened, starting with a bit of context.

1. How should voters evaluate our arguments?

First, this is a tragic character clash. It is not sufficient for either of us to claim victory simply because we have demonstrated that our character is tragic; we have to establish that they are the more tragic character.

Additionally, my framework consists of three elements of tragedy that are the sole, agreed criteria for evaluating what makes a character more tragic. If it doesn’t fit those metrics, it doesn’t factor. And, as I said back in R2, these elements reside on a scale from more to less tragic. Both of our characters have these elements, so which of our characters better embodied these elements across all their behaviors and actions?

Given these, the question must be asked:

2. How has Pro’s argument failed?

Pro’s arguments suffer from three major problems.

A) Lack of comparison

Pro never compares anything specific about Kiritsugu to Anakin. He has only given a handful of general comparisons that fall apart when subjected to the slightest scrutiny.

Pro says that Anakin can’t put an end to his cycle of violence while Kiritsugu can. This is wrong. Anakin did eventually take Sideous of the picture, which was instrumental in destroying the Empire, while Kiritsugu’s destruction of the Grail did not end the cycle of Holy Grail Wars.[1]

Pro says that Anakin’s suffering was worse than Kiritsugu’s. This is debatable, but since Pro drops the numerous examples of Kiritsugu’s suffering, particularly the curse of the Grail that caused intense pain and dramatically weakened him, taking away his magic and loss of his limbs, he doesn’t demonstrate that Anakin’s suffering is worse. Detailing how terrible his cybernetic suit is doesn’t establish that he has it worse than Kiritsugu. Even assuming suffering = tragedy (it doesn’t), their suffering is comparably bad.

Pro says that Anakin’s losses were worse than Kiritsugu, but doesn’t mention any of Kiritsugu’s losses, again failing to demonstrate his point.

He says that expectations of Anakin were higher. I concede that point, but it harms his case. Destinies like “The Chosen One” take away a character’s autonomy, and thus their capacity to inflict tragedy.

This is the trend that pervaded Pro’s case: he focused on proving how tragic a character Anakin is and asserting that he must be more tragic than Kiritsugu. We both have tragic characters, so direct comparisons of the specifics of those tragedies was necessary.

B) Reliance on my framework

Many of Pro’s arguments aren’t linked to anything in my framework.

None of Pro’s “what if” scenarios fit. Pro’s efforts to come up with fantastical alternate worlds is nothing but fan fiction with no warrants or evidence. By contrast, the Fate franchise features four different paths for Kiritsugu (Fate/Zero, Illya’s World, Miyu’s World, and F/GO), all of which come with known outcomes.[2] If opportunity costs demonstrate tragedy, then Kiritsugu’s case is stronger.

None of Pro’s arguments about how Anakin was controlled by external forces fit, either. The first element on my framework turns this against Pro: self-inflicted tragedies outweigh those caused by elements beyond the character’s control.

Pro has other points that do apply, but he consistently treats my framework as a set of checkboxes that both Anakin and Kiritsugu fill in. He’s wrong. These are on a scale from more to less tragic based on how well these characters consistently embody these elements. That consistency (or lack thereof) is key to evaluating their tragedies.

C) Pro’s argument is internally contradictory

Pro says that Anakin was effectively Sidious’s slave, incapable of redeeming himself, thoroughly bent to the Dark Side, that “he is no longer Anakin.” He was also ostracized by Obi-Wan and Yoda, and endured continuous physical torture from Sidious to subjugate him. So, clearly, he had extremely limited control over his choices and actions.

Yet, Pro also argues that he tries to “undo his actions and seek redemption limitless times” (his source doesn’t support this - it is just a page about Morit Astarte [3]), “makes many attempts to kill Sidious throughout his whole career” (no source), and that he “never wanted to become The Devil” (no source). So, clearly, he had autonomy in both his choices and many of his actions, even if many of those actions failed to achieve their intended purpose.

Is Anakin responsible for his actions or not? Is he capable of redemption or not? If he didn’t have autonomy, then his tragedies are not self-inflicted. If he does have autonomy, then his attempts to shift responsibility to Sidious ring hollow because a) he always had the capacity to defy him, just not the will to put everything on the line to kill Sidious, unlike Kiritsugu who faced down threats more powerful than him despite his fears, and b) he would be using the same defense as the Nazis at Nuremberg to excuse his own terrible actions, which is less tragic and more deplorable.

So, given these problems, let’s return to the framework and answer the central question:

3. What are the key differences between Kiritsugu’s and Anakin’s tragedies?

A) Self-Infliction

Kiritsugu

Pro dropped every example: Kiritsugu caused the deaths of everyone on Alimango Island, killed his father, sought out training from Natalia knowing it would turn him into a killer, killed Natalia, fell in love and had a child with Iris despite knowing he would sacrifice her and estrange his child, using and discarding Maiya, killing numerous Mages, seeking the Grail, destroying the Grail and thus destroying Fuyuki City. Kiritsugu epitomizes self-inflicted tragedy, not just because he inflicted so many tragedies, but because doing so plunged both his life and all those around him into deeper tragedies.

Anakin

Pro’s examples are flawed. Yoda’s advice actively pushed Anakin towards the Dark Side, as Pro argued in R1. The slaughter of Younglings (Order 66), Jedi (Order 66 and others) and Separatists ([4]) are all done under orders from Sidious. Obi-Wan actively antagonized him before Anakin turned and confronted him for their fight on Mustafar because of the aforementioned murders.

That leaves 2 examples: Anakin abused his wife and made a fantastically stupid move in his fight against Obi-Wan. Over the course of his entire life, he had two instances of self-inflicted tragedy. Nothing after he became Darth Vader, nothing encompassing his most heinous and tragic acts. That’s all someone else’s fault.

B) Anagnorisis

Kiritsugu

All dropped by Pro. Kiritsugu’s refusal to end Shirley’s life and his subsequent remorse for the deaths on Alimango Island culminated in his becoming a killer to prevent similar harms. His numerous self-destructive behaviors demonstrated continuous remorse for his actions, including distancing himself from those he loves to dull the pain of their loss. Even his redemption via the Holy Grail was yet another massive source of regret, pain and sorrow, as he destroyed the Grail to save countless lives only to cause a different calamity in the process. Even then, he tried to redeem himself by digging through the rubble to find survivors. At every turn, he showed anagnorisis, bearing heavy burdens for every action he committed.

Anakin

Anakin tried to redeem himself by undoing a murder he didn’t commit… which taught him to value his family so well that he would capture and torture his daughter, then maim and try to kill his son. Lessons learned?

He spared Padme’s handmaiden and the Rebels with her… while simultaneously continuing to annihilate rebel groups, Jedi, cities, moons and planets. Baby steps? Just like crying over the Younglings after the fact didn’t stop him from murdering countless other children. So he exhibited regret, but never remorse or redemption, since he persists in the same actions afterward.

C) Punishment vs. Crime

Kiritsugu

More dropped points. Kiritsugu committed crimes that included his quests for vigilante justice, the harms he inflicted on his family and lover, and the broader damage done to Alimango Island and Fuyuki City. He sacrificed everything for his aims and then even sacrificed those very aims. Not only did his punishment exceed the crime, but that punishment continued for years after the Fourth Holy Grail War ended. Unlike Anakin, his death wasn’t redemptive - his persistence, in pain and anguish, was.

Anakin

Pro puts the most attention here and, while he’s correct that Anakin suffers a lot from his cybernetic transformation and its aftereffects (again: suffering ≠ tragedy), he avoids a crucial detail: it is imposed before he commits his most heinous crimes. Anakin receives no punishment for the destruction he wreaked with the Death Stars, everything he did to his children, and all the Rebels and Jedi he killed. These acts were driven by more than Sidious’s orders, as he explicitly stated that he was bringing “peace, freedom, justice and security to [his] Empire.” A lot of crime, very little punishment, and most of that punishment was measures taken by Sidious to ensure his obedience, not to punish him for his prior actions.

His dismemberment at the hands of Obi-Wan was punishment for his crimes. His killing the Emperor at the cost of his own life was punishment for his crimes. Every other crime went unpunished.

Conclusion

Pro spent most of this debate listing all the ways Anakin has suffered and how he was either subjugated or directed by the whims of other characters. Those may sound sad, but they’re also nebulous. Pro gives no means to weigh them against other tragic elements. By contrast, I’ve defined what makes a character tragic using three elements that we have both repeated throughout the debate. These aren’t about forgiveness - they serve means to connect with an audience so that they can understand and relate to the character’s choices. Kiritsugu’s tragedy stands out precisely because it connects so well with an audience. Anakin’s tragedies lack that connection. Vote Con.

1. https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Fuyuki_Holy_Grail_War#Fifth_Holy_Grail_War

2. https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya

3. https://screenrant.com/star-wars-darth-vader-best-opponents/#morit-astarte

4. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mission_to_Mustafar/Legends#:~:text=In%2019%20BBY%2C%20Darth%20Sidious,the%20volcanic%20planet%20of%20Mustafar

whiteflame

07.03.2023 12:32PM

#20

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@Barney

Appreciate that you think so, Barney. We'll have to see how it does in the voting.

Barney

07.03.2023 06:26AM

#19

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@Sir.Lancelot

Sadly it’s a popularity contest. Still, quality can help.

Sir.Lancelot

07.03.2023 04:49AM

#18

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@Barney

What determines if a debate makes it into the Hall of Fame?

Barney

07.03.2023 04:40AM

#17

HoF material

Lemming

06.08.2023 09:55PM

#16

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@whiteflame

Alas, but ah well.

whiteflame

06.08.2023 09:45PM

#15

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@Lemming

Thanks for the vote, and for the extensive reasoning. I know there are a lot of different ways to measure what makes a character tragic and your points are valid. Looks like there is too little time left for me to get up a vote on your debate, unfortunately.

Sir.Lancelot

06.08.2023 06:49PM

#14

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@Lemming

@Slainte

Thanks for the votes. ^.^

whiteflame

06.01.2023 11:13AM

#13

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@Savant

Thank you for voting, I’m glad you enjoyed the debate! I expected some pushback on the framework, so I see your point.

whiteflame

05.31.2023 12:46PM

#12

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@Intelligence_06

Cool, just wanted to be sure.

Intelligence_06

05.31.2023 07:26AM

#11

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@whiteflame

Course. I am not someone who writes the RFD in comments and this is just a remark from what is basically a SW legends fan that doesn't change how tragic Anakin was.

whiteflame

05.31.2023 03:15AM

#10

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@Intelligence_06

To be fair, Star Wars is under the Disney umbrella. I hope you'll focus on other factors if and when you vote.

Intelligence_06

05.30.2023 11:45PM

The fact that someone considered Anakin a "disney" character already makes it a virtual loss. Anakin is not and will simply not be one.

Sir.Lancelot

05.24.2023 09:45PM

When I wrote about Sidious destroying Vader’s armor and abandoning him on Mustafar, I forgot to provide a source.

https://comicnewbies.com/2020/10/18/emperor-palpatine-leaves-darth-vader-in-mustafar/amp/

https://youtu.be/HaL-O9uJAn0

whiteflame

05.21.2023 05:38PM

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@Bella3sp

Out of curiosity, who were you expecting?

Bella3sp

05.21.2023 05:27PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

You got it. Both interesting characters. I expected a different character on whiteflame's side but he sure is in the mix of tragic characters.

Sir.Lancelot

05.21.2023 05:05PM

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@WeaverofFate

@Bella3sp

@Savant

Could we get your guys’ vote on this when it’s finished?

whiteflame

05.18.2023 12:24AM

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@Sir.Lancelot

Nevermind, I can accept a little earlier. I'll go by the formatting you have listed for the first round, but I'll wait to see how you write it and try to be consistent with how much detail you provide.

Sir.Lancelot

05.17.2023 04:26AM

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@whiteflame

ok, sounds good!

whiteflame

05.16.2023 09:51PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

Got my pick. Since you've already given yours and I have a pretty good idea of where you're going with it as a result, I'll give you mine here in the comments:

Kiritsugu Emiya from the Fate franchise.

It'll be a couple of days before I can accept, since I've got a lot on my plate through the workday Thursday. I'll accept after that.

whiteflame

05.16.2023 04:16PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

I am absolutely down for this. Toughest part is narrowing down the options. I’ll accept once I figure it out.

Lemming

06.08.2023 06:47PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

I don't think a character being manipulated into or being prophecied to tragedy,
Makes for less tragedy,
Though it's the more a hero fights against the manipulation or fate, yet fails,
That makes it more a tragedy.
Oedipus was destined,
Macbeth was destined,
Yet they are still tragic hero and fallen hero.

I think Sir.Lancelot would have done well to highlight more what Anakin 'was, before his fall,
Rather than too much focus on what he 'could have been.
This could have been contrasted with whiteflame's character, who Sir.Lancelot could have painted as 'lacking heroic characteristics as they are commonly known.
Yes, Anti-Hero, but Utopian goals, many villains/anti-villains have such as goal.
. .
Line between hero, anti-hero, villain, anti-hero,
Often blurred with real life leaders,
Arguably blurred with fictional characters as well.
, ,
While Vader is a villain,
Anikin was not,
Yet Kiritsugu Emiya sounds to have been on the dark path throughout life.
. .
Not that I'm saying highlighting what he 'could have been was bad,
Bit of Saruman's tragedy, is all his wasted potential, what he 'might have been.
. .
it's just that a contrast between the two is needed, Anikin and Kiritsugu Emiya.
Kiritsugu Emiya's utopia ideal was also a pretty big lost potential.

To me Darth Vader's death 'lessens his tragedy some,
Yes it's sad he had not a happy life with his family,
But there is redemption in his final act, he has saved his son,
Not all was lost.
. .
Though I suppose Kiritsugu Emiya has 'similar redemption of a sort,
Saving Shirou,
But the burning of the city 'adds to his mistakes and tragedy.

I 'do think Sir.Lancelot showed Vader when Anakin felt grief, regret, Vader's physical and emotional suffering, regret,
That even when Vader showed consideration for his past,
But whiteflame makes an effective attack on times Vader 'lacks it,
As well as whiteflame pointing out in contrast Kiritsugu Emiya's frequent regrets and suffering.

Vader and Kiritsugu Emiya 'both end up sacrificing so much, yet failed to achieve their goals.

I actually think it 'is a bit tragic, the Nazi's, or. . . people in general,
One is loyal to one's country, unsure what to do, not wanting to harm one's country, one becomes subject toy soldier disavowing responsibility,
Greater resulted the outside force, pressure.
Not that I'm saying it excuses them,
But many fine people in life, ruined themselves obeying orders, what they were, and might have been.

My vote goes towards Con, as Pro just a bit late in comparing Anakin to Kiritsugu Emiya, and late in criticizing Kiritsugu Emiya.
Criticisms and comparisons Pro 'did make, just weren't airtight, both suffered, lost family, lost potential futures.

. . .
If you read this vote this far, and are able to vote on this site,
Whether for me or against me,
Consider voting on a debate of mine,
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4497-ought-be-a-legal-right-to-dueling

Savant

06.01.2023 11:06AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Both sides agree on a framework, which makes this decision a bit simpler. The only complication would be if both sides won on different parts of the framework, in which case it wouldn't be clear how to weigh different parts against each other. But that's not how things turned out.

It's clear that both characters have some degree of all these characteristics. But Kiritsugu’s tragedy is basically never challenged by Pro, while Con raises a lot of doubt as to how well Vader fits these criteria. Pro only makes comparisons in two ways: (a) how much each character suffers as a result of these criteria, and (b) arguing that Anakin is enslaved to Palpatine. Con makes the case that (a) is irrelevant, and (b) actually makes Anakin less tragic given the framework both sides seem to agree on. Pro also brings up opportunity cost, but Con is able to make a similar case, and it's not included in the framework.

As far as evidence presented in this debate, it doesn't seem disputed that Kiritsugu is 100% tragic (i.e. that he embodies these criteria perfectly). Con gives a lot of examples of ways in which Anakin doesn't embody these criteria, and not all of them are challenged. So that's where my vote lands.

As for advice to both sides... I think the framework is what decided this debate, and I would advise Pro to always have one in mind before starting. In this case, agreeing to Con's framework is probably what gave Con the win. I think Con did a very good job of framing the debate, especially when a lot of these examples are subjective and hard to weigh against each other. The only advice I might offer them is to appeal to frameworks that are more widely used. If Pro had cited the dictionary definition of tragedy, "causing or characterized by extreme distress or sorrow," then they might have had the upper hand. It would be hard to see how Aristotle's opinion outweighs that.

But that's a direction this debate didn't go, so take my speculation with a grain of salt. Great job to both sides—given the framework that ended up being used, I think Pro and Con did very well in defending their respective characters.