Instigator / Pro
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1484
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debates
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Topic
#4519

white people perfected hip hop

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

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After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Parameters
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Last updated date
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Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
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0
1516
rating
22
debates
88.64%
won
Description

Let's get one thing straight here. Rap is not the best genre of music. If we're being objective and taking into account how it sounds and operates, there are better genres. Even if you don't prefer rock, jazz, classical, metal, and other forms of music, they're definitely more complex than rap. And this is where white people come in. When white people make rap music, they are not primarily inspired by hip-hop itself. Rappers such as Kid Rock, Eminem, and Insane Clown Posse have incorporated elements of rock into their music, giving their music more of an edge. Rappers like Mac Miller and G-Eazy incorporate elements of pop into their music that not only makes it more accessible but more well groomed and polished. Hell, look at Lil Ugly Mane. That man's inspired by everything from black metal to noise to industrial to grunge and so much more. This is not me saying that other black rappers don't incorporate various styles into their music, but most of them do not, and even when they are inspired by genres that aren't just rap, it's not executed as creatively or experimentally. Kendrick Lamar, one of the most acclaimed rappers ever, comes across as uninspired in his mixture of jazz, pop, soul, and other genres because he's using these styles as a way to get his message across loudly and not necessarily intelligibly or uniquely. Meanwhile, look at cLOUDDEAD. A group of white guys that have made THE weirdest hip-hop you'll ever hear. It reeks of passion and not of pretentiousness. There's more color and freeness and personality. If they were just rapping about their struggles over simple boom bap beats, it wouldn't be as interesting, and yet that's the direction that most black rappers seem to take like Nas, Biggie, Rakim, Mobb Deep, etc.
Another factor that makes white rappers more appealing is the lyrical content. I am not interested in hearing another dime-a-dozen, straight-forward rap song about drugs, struggles, money, hustling, and gang activity. But Eminem rapping about killing his mom in the most clever, cartoony, weird, hilarious way possible? Hot dog! I know I'm being selective, but here's a verse from the most acclaimed rapper ever, Nas.
https://genius.com/Nas-ny-state-of-mind-lyricsIs it lyrical, conveyed well, and technical? Yes. But is the subject matter really anything we haven't heard before? Not really.
https://genius.com/Eminem-criminal-lyricsWell I'll be damned. This man made fun of gays, quite mercilessly. Meanwhile, what was Nas talking about in his most acclaimed song? Typical street stuff. Break down the wordplay and details in the writing and you're left with the same ol same ol. Not with Eminem though.
Also, even when rappers about nothing, skin color still makes a difference. Check this iconic Vanilla Ice verse from 1990:
https://genius.com/Vanilla-ice-ice-ice-baby-lyricsWhat's he talking about? Nothing. Just partying, how cool his rapping is, nothing gratifying. But the way he talks about it reeks of that suburban confidence and swagger that makes it come across charming and fun. Now here's a verse from Wu-Tang Clan's "Method Man":
https://genius.com/Wu-tang-clan-method-man-lyrics
While it is witty, exciting, and in your face, content wise, it's nothing special, but it markets itself as such. Vanilla Ice knew he was a corny white kid but that didn't stop him from embracing his own swagger. This.......is disingenuous, objectively speaking. He wants to convince you he's hard, and he does a good job at it, but clear the smoke and mirrors and you'll see the facade. And that is why white people > black people at making rap.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Was not aware of how to initially format this so it looks like I dumped my argument into the description by mistake. No matter, I will commence forward.

Let's get one thing straight here. Rap is not the best genre of music. If we're being objective and taking into account how it sounds and operates, there are better genres. Even if you don't prefer rock, jazz, classical, metal, and other forms of music, they're definitely more complex than rap. And this is where white people come in. When white people make rap music, they are not primarily inspired by hip-hop itself as many black rappers are. Rappers such as Kid Rock, Eminem, and Insane Clown Posse have incorporated elements of rock into their music, giving their music more of an edge. Rappers like Mac Miller and G-Eazy incorporate elements of pop into their music that not only makes it more accessible but more well groomed and polished. Hell, look at Lil Ugly Mane. That man's inspired by everything from black metal to noise to industrial to grunge and so much more. This is not me saying that other black rappers don't incorporate various styles into their music, but most of them do not, and even when they are inspired by genres that aren't just rap, it's not executed as creatively or experimentally. Kendrick Lamar, one of the most acclaimed rappers ever, comes across as uninspired in his mixture of jazz, pop, soul, and other genres because he's using these styles as a way to get his message across loudly and not necessarily intelligibly or uniquely. Meanwhile, look at cLOUDDEAD. A group of white guys that have made THE weirdest hip-hop you'll ever hear. It reeks of passion and not of pretentiousness. There's more color and freeness and personality. If they were just rapping about their struggles over simple boom bap beats, it wouldn't be as interesting, and yet that's the direction that most black rappers seem to take like Nas, Biggie, Rakim, Mobb Deep, etc.

Another factor that makes white rappers more appealing is the lyrical content. I am not interested in hearing another dime-a-dozen, straight-forward rap song about drugs, struggles, money, hustling, and gang activity. But Eminem rapping about killing his mom in the most clever, cartoony, weird, hilarious way possible? Hot dog! I know I'm being selective, but here's a verse from the most acclaimed rapper ever, Nas:
Rappers, I monkey flip 'em with the funky rhythm
I be kickin', musician inflictin' composition of pain, I'm like Scarface sniffin' cocaine
Holdin' an M16, see, with the pen I'm extreme
Now, bullet holes left in my peepholes
I'm suited up with street clothes, hand me a .9, and I'll defeat foes
Y'all know my steelo, with or without the airplay
I keep some E&J, sittin' bent up in the stairway
Or either on the corner bettin' Grants with the cee-lo champs
Laughin' at base-heads, tryna sell some broken amps
G-packs get off quick, forever niggas talk shit
Is it lyrical, conveyed well, and technical? Yes. But is the subject matter really anything we haven't heard before? Not really. Now let's see what Eminem has to say:
My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head
Whether you're a fag or lez
Or a homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-vest
Pants or dress
Hate fags? The answer's "yes"
Homophobic? Nah, you're just heterophobic
Staring at my jeans, watching my genitals bulging
That's my motherfucking balls
You'd better let go of 'em
They belong in my scrotum
You'll never get hold of 'em
"Hey, it's me, Versace
Whoops, somebody shot me!
And I was just checking the mail."
Get it? Checking the 'male'?
How many records you expecting to sell
After your second LP sends you directly to jail?
C'mon! Relax guy, I like gay men
Right, Ken? Give me an "amen". A-men!
Please Lord, this boy needs Jesus
Heal this child, help us destroy these demons
Oh, and please send me a brand new car
And a prostitute while my wife's sick in the hospital
Preacher preacher, fifth grade teacher
You can't reach me, my mom can't neither
You can't teach me a goddamn thing
'Cause I watch TV, and Comcast cable
And you ain't able to stop these thoughts
You can't stop me from topping these charts
And you can't stop me from dropping each March
With a brand new CD for these fucking retards
And to think, it's just little ol' me
Mr. Don't-Give-A-Fuck still won't leave
Well I'll be damned. This man made fun of gays, dead celebrities, his teacher, and religion all in the same 14 bars.. Meanwhile, what was Nas talking about in his most acclaimed song? Typical street stuff. Break down the wordplay and details in the writing and you're left with the same ol same ol. Not with Eminem though.
Also, even when rappers rap about nothing, skin color still makes a difference. Check this iconic Vanilla Ice verse from 1990:
Alright stop, collaborate and listen
Ice is back with the brand new invention
Something grabs a hold of me tightly
Flow like a harpoon daily and nightly
"Will it ever stop?" Yo, I don't know
Turn off the lights, huh, and I'll glow
To the extreme, I rock a mic like a vandal
Light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle
Dance, rush the speaker that booms
I'm killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom
Deadly when I play a dope melody
Anything less than the best is a felony
Love it or leave it, you better gangway
You better hit the bullseye, the kid don't play
And if there was a problem, yo, I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it
What's he talking about? Nothing. Just partying, how cool his rapping is, nothing gratifying. But the way he talks about it reeks of that suburban confidence and swagger that makes it come across charming and fun. Now here's a verse from Wu-Tang Clan's "Method Man":
Hey, you, get off my cloud
You don't know me and you don't know my style
Who be gettin' flam when they come to a jam?
Here I am, here I am, the Method Man
Pat-a-cake, pat-a-cake, hey, the Method Man
Don't eat Skippy, Jif or Peter Pan
Peanut butter 'cause I'm not butter
In fact, I snap back like a rubber
Band, I be Sam, Sam-I-Am
And I don't eat green eggs and ham
Style'll hit ya, wham, then goddamn
You'll be like, "Oh shit, that's the jam"
Turn it up, now hear me get buck w-w-wild
I'm about to blow, light me up (Light me up)
Upside, downside, inside and outside
Hittin' you from every angle, there's no doubt I
Am the one and only Method Man
The master of the plan, rappin' shit like Saran
Wrap, with some of this and some of that
Hold up (What?) I tawt I taw a putty tat
Over there, but I think he best to beware
Of the diggy dog shit right here
Yippy-yippy-yay, yippy-yah, yippy-yo
Like Deck said, "This ain't your average flow"
Comin' like rah, ooh-ah, achie-kah
Tell me, how you like it so far, baby paw?
The poetry's in motion, coast to coast and
Rub it on your skin like lotion
What's the commotion? Oh my Lord
Another corn chopped by the Wu-Tang sword
"Hey, hey, hey" like Fat Albert
It's the Method Man, ain't no if ands about it
It's the Method
Now, in my opinion, this is still a fantastic verse, but while it is witty, exciting, and in your face, content wise, it's nothing special, but it markets itself as such. Vanilla Ice knew he was a corny white kid but that didn't stop him from embracing his own swagger. This.......is disingenuous, objectively speaking. He wants to convince you he's hard, and he does a good job at it, but clear the smoke and mirrors and you'll see the facade.

This is not me saying that white people should replace black people in hip-hop or that black people suck at their own game. This is just me analyzing the hip-hop genre as a whole and pointing out my observations on why I feel a certain race of people, for the most part, outdoes another. You can argue that this is me generalizing an entire group of people and their culture, but there is a definitely a cultural factor that affects both sides of the same coin. You can keep your Jay-Z, Lil Baby, Biggie, and Kendrick Lamar. I'll just be over here with my Eminem, Bones, Kid Rock, and Lil Ugly Mane.





Con
#2
1. Preamble and BOP

I will prove that white people DID NOT perfect hip-hop, and instead some other group besides white people did, in fact, perfect hip-hop if hip-hop is considered “perfected”. Conversely, my opponent must prove that white people, and only white people, perfected hip-hop. Because of this, BOP in this debate is shared.

2. Definitions
Hip-hop: a form of popular music that originated among inner-city African-American youths in the 1980s, drawing on rap, funk, street sounds, and fragments of melody and rhythm borrowed from previously recorded sources.
White people: a racialized classification of people and a skin color specifier, generally used for people of European ancestry
Perfected: to make something free from faults
Rap:  a type of music of African American origin in which rhythmic and usually rhyming speech is chanted to a musical accompaniment

3. Arguments
My core argument for this round will be:
  • Hip-hop is not perfect

4. Hip-hop is not perfect.

Something is perfect if it is free from faults. Saying hip-hop is perfect would mean that the entirety of the hip-hop genre has no faults at all. 

There are clearly at least five faults with rap music, which I will describe below [1].

a) Murder

Hip-hop has too much obsession with killing. This is a part that I believe clearly shows a fault with rap music. Of course, most rappers are harmless people—99.97% of the rappers have not killed anyone, yet they still include creative methods to incorporate the concept of murder

In fact, McKinley “Mac” Phipps Jr was arrested for murder and tried against evidence from his own rap lyrics—even without a weapon tied to Mac [2]. 

For example, let’s look at some of his lyrics. Track 4 of Shell Shocked already gives away motives of murdering with a title “Murder, Murder, Kill Kill”. [3]

Soldier rag on my eye, soldier fit on my frame
I scream, "Whoa" when I come through makin that MAC-11 sang

Here Mac reveals that he will arrive on a scene and unleash his MAC-11 gun.

But fuck em, I cross my heart and pull the trigger
Dear God if I die, let me see the eyes of my killa, so I can haunt that
Here he casually promotes killing killers out of hatred, which isn’t aligning to a standard of “perfection” of rap (part of hip-hop genre that Mac’s song is part of). 

Let me be clear: rap is only meant to have rhythmic speaking with chanting speech to music. It never intended to promote murder, which instantly diminishes any sense of perfection with existing rap.

b) Disrespect to women
The modern hip-hop genre conveys the message that women are bitches and hoes. Let’s take a look at some lines.

Let’s start off with “Bitches ain’t shit” by Dr. Dre ft Snoop Dogg [4]:

Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks
Lick on these nuts, then suck the dick
Here, Snoop Dogg straight up characterizes women as only used for sex, through “licking on nuts” and then “sucking dick” (male genitalia). 

Even Kanye West is misogynist in his rap “On Sight” [5]: 

Black dick all in your spouse again
And I know she like chocolate men
She got more niggas off than Cochran, hah!

It is quite a similar case here with Kanye. These lines could even be a personal attack to his ex-spouse, Kim Kardashian, as he refers to “your spouse” liking “chocolate men” (very dark colored men) only for sex (due to black people having big male genitalia [6]).

Kanye is completely wrong here about his ex-wife, who is actively working to pursue a law degree and free people from prison [7], meaning his anti-women comments are most likely fabricated.

I don’t really need to conclude this: modern rap would just characterize women for sexual favors instead of caring people and mothers as we know in today’s society.

c) Lyrical content

Actual settings of rap are quite… destructive. This goes hand-in-hand with disrespect to women as rap features inappropriate sex-related lyrics when the goal for music artists is to better connect with audiences.

The assumption that the audience condones the behavior presented in rap is unreasonable and is not common at all to be “connectable with audiences”

Again, I’ll list some examples here [8]

Eligible bachelor, million dollar boat/That’s whiter than what’s spilling down your throat - Pharrell Williams

Here, Pharrel Willians basically talks about his own penis fluid flowing down the throat of someone who is sucking it. Considering that this is the same guy who made Happy (featured in the Despicable Me franchise), I don’t even know what to say.

“I dont care when you get it her pussy still smell the same/Period just went off and you can’t smell a thing/Pussy smell and touch like she was 13” - Plies

Plies here is describing a vagina down to the detail of smell and touch. Also referring to a 13-year-old’s vagina in the context of sex is highly inappropriate and can be illegal as he is promoting touching a 13-year-old’s vagina in the context of sex.

“Her pussy hole smelled like sour cream and onion/But once I got started, there was no stoppin/I hit rock bottom and the pussy started fartin’” - Bust Down

Similar to Plies, Bust Down also describes a vagina (pussy) in detail.

I’ll restate again that the goal of music is to connect each other [9], which is basically sound that conveys emotion that we can relate and share.

There is no meaning to sharing experiences of inappropriate sexual acts in content that kids listen to.

d) Money

Money is currency worldwide, drives economies, and is still what rappers show to live an extravagant lifestyle. In fact, most rappers don't even have the lifestyle they describe. Music artists only describe that money is the “center of most peoples’ ambitions” and artists just “provide an image that they assume others will aspire to be” [10]. While this is clearly not true with earlier arguments about sex and misogyny, rap doesn’t reflect an actual struggle, instead only focusing on the extravagant lifestyle and somehow becoming a millionaire without being a thousandaire first.

e) Crime

This argument goes hand-in-hand with my first argument (murder). Rap is good at promoting crime, and openly describing and confessing it. 
 
Let’s look at a few.

“I just came here to the party for the drugs” - UPSAHL [11]

UPSAHL openly promotes partying with drugs here.

“Hustling 101 welcome to the class
You'll learn the art of dealing history and making broken English your math
I can't teach you how to stash, see myself I hold cash
Every dollar like its my last, 'cause it might be” - Jay-Z [12]

The context of school classes (history, a “101” class, English, art) show Jay-Z’s intentions of promoting drug selling even within a school environment, where it is highly illegal.



5. Conclusion

Rap is nowhere near perfect. It has too many flaws, and is highly inappropriate. In fact, because of this, white people could not have perfected hip-hop as hip-hop is, at the current state, not even perfected.


6. Sources





Round 2
Pro
#3
Rather than address the claim I'm making that white people perfected hip-hop, he chooses to waddle around the argument by bringing up the fact that hip-hop has not been perfected. Perhaps this is only his starting argument and he'll address the main claim I'm making later, but for now, let's tackle this counter argument of his together.

So my opponent claims that hip-hop has not been perfected because of 5 specific qualities. The problem with these qualities that he mentions is that they are all related to one aspect of the genre: the lyrics. He failed to mention other aspects of hip-hop, such as production, melody, storytelling, technical ability, song structure, etc. But let's focus on his argument regarding these different topics and how they're mentioned in hip-hop.

1. murder

Three things:
1.A much greater percentage of black rappers rap about murder than white rappers. So if we're going off of this idea that rapping about murder is a fault, then you are only proving my point what white rappers are better because much less of them rap about killing people. There are plenty of talented white rappers that avoid this topic such as Yung Lean, Why?, Lil Dicky, Aesop Rock, Mike Shinoda, etc. 

2. When white people rap about murder, it's so obviously not meant to be taken seriously. Just look at this Eminem lyric:
"I light a candle and place it up on the mantel
Grab a knife at the blade and stab you with the fuckin' handle"

You're telling me if you ran up on this guy and he had a knife in his pocket, he would grab the blade and fight you off with the handle? No, he wouldn't? "So why'd he say it then?" Because it's funny and weird, and Eminem is both of those things. 

Meanwhile, check this verse from Vince Staples:
Hit the corner, make a dollar, flip it
Split the dollars wit' my mama children
Folks need Porsches, hoes need abortions
I just need y'all out of my business
Never no problem, playin' no pitches
Never no problem, sprayin' no witnesses
No face, no case, been wit' the shit
Hopped out broad day then emptied clips
Cut class 'cause it wasn't 'bout cash
School wasn't no fun, couldn't bring my gun
Know a change gon' come like Obama an' them say
But they shootin' everyday 'round my mama an' them way
So we put a AK where Keon an' them stay
And that's for any nigga say he got a problem wit' me
How I'm Crippin' where I'm livin', come and follow me
Pistol poppin', Poppy Street

And when you listen to the song itself, he sounds convincing. He's telling it how it is. No metaphors, no deeper message, just raw declarations about how he's going to kill people. "Oh he's just being a silly goose rapping about mu-" Bitch this man killed people. He literally admitted to joining a gang to kill people:
"I started gang banging because I wanted to kill people. I wanted to hurt people. There's no reason: it's a bloodthirst.
The same reason people join the army: because they want to kill. A lion doesn't make an excuse to kill anybody, he does it because he wants to"

3. Yes, a lot of rap songs contain lyrics about murder. But as you literally just said, 99.97% of rappers have not killed anyone, so clearly they are just rapping about it for fun and hopefully get a witty line out of it. Why should this be considered a fault? It doesn't make the music any less compelling or worthwhile, especially when the lyrics are used to support a greater message or implemented into a really dramatic, well-told story.

2. disrespect to women

Funny you bring up lyrics from the song "On Sight" by Kanye West, the opening to one of the most acclaimed rap albums of the past decade, "Yeezus", and you mentioned lyrics from one of his best intros as well. The song has an incredibly harsh, aggressive instrumental with Kanye sounding like a fucking monster over it, sounding as confident and audacious as he possibly can. These lyrics serve to introduce the tone and character of the album. Of course if you're listening to this sound for moral purposes, you're gonna be left disappointed. But why would you listen to music to reinforce your ethical beliefs? You're telling me you really bump gospel music in your free time? To quote Dr. Weird from Aqua Teen Hunger Force, "BULLSHIT!"

3. lyrical content

You say that they're trying to connect with audiences, but aren't they doing what the audience wants? When Drake released his 2022 dance album "Honestly, Nevermind", most people absolutely hated it with the exception of one song: Jimmy Cooks. The murderous trap banger that finished the album off. The one song about murder is the one song that everyone gravitated toward. 

"There is no meaning to sharing experiences of inappropriate sexual acts in content that kids listen to."

Then don't let your kids listen to it, asshole.

4. money

Again, as I've mentioned in my argument against your claim about murder in rap music, some topics are only brought up in songs to communicate the message or to get a decent line across. 

5.  crime

Boring myself with how much I have to repeat myself but they are mentioning crime because it's what sells and is interesting to some people. How does this make the song any less enjoyable?

His entire argument is about the lyrics and how no one has perfected them in hip-hop. I argued that white people were better at making hip-hop MUSIC. The whole package of rap has been perfected by white people, but what does he talk about: why rap is flawed. Why this predominantly black art form is flawed. And people will probably claim that my argument is racist anyway.

Also
"Conversely, my opponent must prove that white people, and only white people, perfected hip-hop."

The Slim Shady LP is the best rap album of all time. Not a single Kanye, Kendrick, 2Pac, Biggie, Jay-Z, Nas or 50 Cent album comes close. Argue with a wall.



Con
#4
Thanks for your round 2 argument, PRO.

I’ll start with my refutations of your arguments.

He failed to mention other aspects of hip-hop, such as production, melody, storytelling, technical ability, song structure, etc. But let's focus on his argument regarding these different topics and how they're mentioned in hip-hop.

Let’s revisit the definition of perfected for one second (i.e. definition from round 1).

Perfected: to make something free from faults

It doesn’t matter if production is the highest quality, even if melody is, and storytelling (actually, storytelling is basically the same thing as lyrics as it is the only spoken words used in a song). Even if there is one fault in hip-hop, it would not be considered perfected as a perfected thing by default must have a total of 0 faults.

Therefore, PRO still has not refuted this point.

PRO says:
A much greater percentage of black rappers rap about murder than white rappers. So if we're going off of this idea that rapping about murder is a fault, then you are only proving my point what white rappers are better because much less of them rap about killing people. There are plenty of talented white rappers that avoid this topic such as Yung Lean, Why?, Lil Dicky, Aesop Rock, Mike Shinoda, etc. 

Thank you for admitting that murder is a theme in rap, and how this describes hip-hop as imperfect. As the BOP says I also have to prove that white people DID NOT perfect hip-hop, I’ll also describe how white rappers include disrespect in their lyrics. You mention Lil Dicky as someone who avoids murder. Yet, he uses unethical and derogatory language.


Fellas, don't you love the cum when you have sex? (Ayy)
And I heard women orgasms are better than a dick (Uh)


Please refer point (b) from my round 1 argument of describing women as only useful for sex, as this is exactly what Lil Dicky does in his song “Earth”.

As Lil Dicky is white [13], here Lil Dicky is actually degrading the concept of rap, thereby imperfecting it.




At this point, I have satisfied BOP by proving hip-hop is not perfect. It is not necessary that I pinpoint who perfected hip-hop since BOP only claims I must pinpoint who perfected hip-hop if hip-hop is considered “perfected”. From my round 1 and 2 arguments, as well as PRO’s round 2 arguments, hip-hop is clearly not perfected.  

Because it's funny and weird, and Eminem is both of those things. 

Please refer to the point of music and rap as a whole: to connect with the audience. Keep in mind that kids and pre-teens listen to rap as any other music. Would rap artists really be encouraging kids and pre-teens to rap.

You're telling me if you ran up on this guy and he had a knife in his pocket, he would grab the blade and fight you off with the handle?

Yes. Please refer to my argument of how Mac’s own rap lyrics landed him in prison, as rap does still carry on intentions that can be used to criminally penalize someone.

But why would you listen to music to reinforce your ethical beliefs? You're telling me you really bump gospel music in your free time

Because music can do that? People listen to music for self-esteem too. [14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

Highlights from the sources I’ve linked:
  • Source 16 says music can help cure neurological illnesses. AN ethical belief would be to, of course, be cured from that disease, which is exactly what music does.
  • Source 17 quotes “Even the concerts that went poorly helped prove to me that the world doesn't end when something goes awry.”
  • Source 18 claims music reinforces children’s perceptions of ability, self-efficacy, and aspirations, which are all ethical beliefs.

As you can see, music definitely enforces ethical beliefs, and many do listen to music to do that.


“Then don't let your kids listen to it, asshole.”

Pro admits to rap having sexual elements as being destructive towards a kid audience, reinforcing how hip-hop is not perfect.

some topics are only brought up in songs to communicate the message or to get a decent line across. 

Please explain how, as my research indicates that these topics brought up in songs are treated and regarded as highly offensive to an audience. 


How does this make the song any less enjoyable?

Because not everyone likes listening to crime? “Perfect” hip-hop would appeal to everyone, and the crime-oriented landscape rap tries to paint is exactly not appealing to everyone, especially kids. 


The Slim Shady LP is the best rap album of all time. Not a single Kanye, Kendrick, 2Pac, Biggie, Jay-Z, Nas or 50 Cent album comes close. Argue with a wall.

I think PRO must identify the difference between his opinion of rap, and an actual fact of rap. Not everyone thinks “Slim Shady LP” is the best rap album, and there is no way to prove a fact of the “best rap” as “best” by default is a subjective adjective.

but what does he talk about: why rap is flawed.

Please reread the BOP identified. I must prove that white people did not perfect hip-hop (which I have in my earlier argument—see what I have described about Lil Dicky’s “Earth”), and if it is perfect, pinpoint who perfected it. As I have identified over and over again that hip-hop is not perfect, I do not need to pinpoint who perfected it as long as I have proven that it was not white people who have.


Sources:

Sources are linked wherever needed.


Round 3
Pro
#5
"Thank you for admitting that murder is a theme in rap, and how this describes hip-hop as imperfect"

You still haven't discussed why you feel that this makes rap any worse.

"You mention Lil Dicky as someone who avoids murder. Yet, he uses unethical and derogatory language."

It is very clear that you are not familiar with Lil Dicky and his brand. He carries himself as a funny haha joke rapper while also being very technical and proficient in his lyricism. Only a fool would take the words that he says in his music literally. There's a reason songs like "Pillow Talking" and "Lemme Freak" aren't talked about in the same manner as Eminem's "Stan" or 2Pac's "Dear Mama". 

"Please refer to my argument of how Mac’s own rap lyrics landed him in prison, as rap does still carry on intentions that can be used to criminally penalize someone."

Yeah maybe when your lyrics are “‘Murder, murder, kill, kill’; ‘Pull the trigger, put a bullet in your head.’ (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/03/california-mckinley-mac-phipps-rap-music-black-rappers).No wordplay or clever/comedic writing. Just bland murder talk. This only proves why white people are better at making hip-hop because they rap about murder in a more compelling manner.

"Because music can do that? People listen to music for self-esteem too."

Yes, people sometimes listen to music in order to feel better about themselves. Doesn't mean all music has to fulfill that very odd criteria in order to be good. Are you implying that objectively speaking,  Are you going to tell me that "Roar" by Katy Perry is a better song than "Bohemian Rhapsody" by Queen because it's more "ethical" and also because of the one line in the song where Freddie Mercury sings, "Mama just killed a man, put a gun against his head, pulled my trigger now he's dead"? How does that make sense, especially considering how one song is clearly more complex and well composed than the other?

"Pro admits to rap having sexual elements as being destructive towards a kid audience, reinforcing how hip-hop is not perfect."

The Godfather is universally considered to be one of, if not the, greatest movies of all time, and that movie is definitely not appropriate for kids. Are you saying that "Norm of the North" is a better movie because it's more kid-friendly thus more "perfect" in your eyes?

This entire argument should revolve around whether or not white people perfected hip-hop or black people have, as it is technically their genre. But my opponent would rather degrade their art form than actually discussing the genre's historical context and providing legitimate counter claims, but he instead beats around the bush and wastes valuable debate time exploring the wrong points that should not serve as the basis for his argument. It's like saying "Germans did not perfect mass genocide because it's imperfect" or "Jews did not perfect owning Hollywood because Hollywood is imperfect".Extreme examples, but hopefully you'll see my point instead of pretending you don't for the sake of stretching out an ultimately useless and irrelevant argument, respectfully.

Con
#6
Thanks for the Round 3 argument.

You still haven't discussed why you feel that this makes rap any worse.

The point of this debate is to determine whether rap is perfected, and who has indeed perfected that rap if rap were perfected as stated in the BOP. I already have stated reasons for this in earlier round 1 and 2 arguments.

It is very clear that you are not familiar with Lil Dicky and his brand. He carries himself as a funny haha joke rapper while also being very technical and proficient in his lyricism. Only a fool would take the words that he says in his music literally. There's a reason songs like "Pillow Talking" and "Lemme Freak" aren't talked about in the same manner as Eminem's "Stan" or 2Pac's "Dear Mama".

Yeah maybe when your lyrics are “‘Murder, murder, kill, kill’; ‘Pull the trigger, put a bullet in your head.’ (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/03/california-mckinley-mac-phipps-rap-music-black-rappers).No wordplay or clever/comedic writing. Just bland murder talk. This only proves why white people are better at making hip-hop because they rap about murder in a more compelling manner.

Yes, people sometimes listen to music in order to feel better about themselves. Doesn't mean all music has to fulfill that very odd criteria in order to be good. Are you implying that objectively speaking,  Are you going to tell me that "Roar" by Katy Perry is a better song than "Bohemian Rhapsody" by Queen because it's more "ethical" and also because of the one line in the song where Freddie Mercury sings, "Mama just killed a man, put a gun against his head, pulled my trigger now he's dead"? How does that make sense, especially considering how one song is clearly more complex and well composed than the other?

It’s important to distinguish the difference between a “joke” and straight up offensive. 

A “joke” is simply something to provoke laughter [21]. The concept of group membership within a joke shows whether someone would laugh or take offense of a joke. There are two reasons why someone would take a joke as offensive:

  • Audience does not perceive joke as prosocial
  • People are not inclined towards derogatory jokes

A group that satisfies both are the kids/preteen category, and also some parents of these kids.

Even if a rapper is a “funny haha joke rapper” as you say, it won’t always carry the same meaning across, revealing another imperfection within rap (therefore rap isn’t perfect due to 1+ flaws, and white people could not have perfected rap).


I’ll reference PRO’s comment:

This entire argument should revolve around whether or not white people perfected hip-hop or black people have, as it is technically their genre. 

First of all, what do you mean by “their genre”? Also, PRO fails to notice that others are involved in rap, such as those of latino descent instead of the black and white races [22].

Additionally, the BOP just says I must prove one of the following:
  • White people did not perfect hip-hop and hip-hop isn't perfect
  • White people did not perfect hip-hop, hip-hop is perfect, other people besides white people perfected hip-hop

I have already shown that white rappers, such as Lil Dicky, reiterate misogynist and derogatory themes, which may not resonate with all. Additionally, I have proven that rap has many imperfections through round 1, 2, and even this round through the inconsistency of joke delivery in raps. This very clearly satisfies the 1st bullet point.

I’ll go ahead and describe how hip hop was already magnified by those other than white race, even though this is technically outside of what is sufficed by the BOP.

  • DJ Kool Herc brought rap to the world as a pioneer of rap in the 60s and 70s
  • He is considered the “father of hip hop”, and one of the first rappers [23]
  • Grandmaster Flash, Furious Five, Kurtis Blow, Cold Crush Brothers, and Grandmaster Caz took on rapping and increased its popularity through DJing
  • Run-D.M.C. recorded for Profile and grew the market of rap 
  • The classical period of rap is 1979-93, and contributions were from De La Soul. In fact, De La Soul also encouraged female rappers Queen Latifah and Salt-n-Pepa started female rap 
  • Ice Cube, Eazy E, and Dr. Dre led rap in the 1990s in the western coast. [24]

By the late 1990s, “hip-hop became the best-selling genre of popular music”. Yet, the ones that contributed to this success are ALL BLACK.

I’ll repeat that. All rappers that I have mentioned are black. None are white, none have contributed to the rise in success of rap.

Even though rap isn’t perfect (I), white rappers haven’t contributed to its rise and peaks (II), only blacks did (III).

Since I, II, and III are proved, BOP is satisfied. 

I see PRO also likes to reference Eminem as a model white rapper who seems to have perfected rap. Even though rap isn’t perfected, let’s examine this.

  • Encore and Relapse are described to be “the worst albums ever”
  • He is described to be just “screaming into a microphone” [25]

In fact, here is some sexual language from Eminem’s own raps. [26]

"All you gotta do is pick up the phone and just dial up this number
It's 1-800-I'M-A-DICK-SUCKER-I'D-LOVE-TO-SUCK-A-DICK"

"So fuck a chicken, lick a chicken, suck a chicken, beat a chicken
Eat a chicken like it's a big cock, big-a-big-cock!
Or suck a dick, and lick a dick, and eat a dick, and stick a dick in your mouth"

This is verse 3 of My 1st Single by Eminem

Next refutation...

It's like saying "Germans did not perfect mass genocide because it's imperfect" or "Jews did not perfect owning Hollywood because Hollywood is imperfect".

Yes… and? Mass genocide is perfect if rate of killing is high without any backlash. Most genocides in the past have not accomplished this, and even gas chamber killing isn’t the fastest way to kill people (e.g. nukes destroy people very quickly)... we probably haven’t even discovered the fastest way for good reason.

pretending you don't for the sake of stretching out an ultimately useless and irrelevant argument, respectfully.

PRO says discussing how rap is imperfect is an “useless and irrelevant argument”. 

I’ll basically reiterate BOP here, as my argument of how rap is imperfect relies on how BOP defines the basis of this debate. PRO’s stance is that white people perfected hip-hop. He must prove two things: hip-hop is perfect and white people perfected it. As CON, I am the opposite of that. Due to De Morgan’s law,  I must prove “hip-hop is not perfect or white people did not perfect it”.

This is essentially the same lines as what BOP is from round 1.

I will prove that white people DID NOT perfect hip-hop, and instead some other group besides white people did, in fact, perfect hip-hop if hip-hop is considered “perfected”. 

Sources are cited wherever needed. 

However:
  • PRO has not refuted claims about raps landing people in prison
  • PRO has not refuted the sexual and misogynist nature of rap, and how that may be displeasing to certain people
  • PRO has not refuted how people listen to music for self-esteem
  • PRO has not refuted how White rappers such as Lil Dicky use the sexual and misogynist nature of rap
  • Even if some people may like sexual natures of rap, it does not appeal to certain people, being a flaw in rap. (perfect rap should be ideal and appeal to everyone)

^ Above I have mentioned clear flaws of rap, still unrefuted. Due to flaws in existing rap, hip-hop is not perfect, and therefore white people could not have perfected it as it is not even in a perfect state, nor has it ever reached one.


Round 4
Pro
#7
"It’s important to distinguish the difference between a “joke” and straight up offensive. "

Yes, and Lil Dicky makes jokes. Not offenses. If you're so dull-minded and lacking in a sense of humor that you can't at least see the humorous intent of his music, then nothing will. I feel that you might even take his show "Dave" as dramatic and serious even when there's an entire episode about how weird and small his penis is. This idea that a joke has to appeal to literally everyone spits in the face of comedic expression, as it seems that you're only advocating for comedy to be bland, safe, corporate, painfully inoffensive, not daring to take risks, not willing to challenge the audience or make them think about what they're listening to. Do you mean to tell me that a Hallmark movie is funnier than "Borat" because it's more appealing generally? No, because no one pisses themselves laughing at Hallmark movies the same way that they do for a movie as gut-bustingly hilarious and audacious as Borat.

Also, since you're implying that these jokes are actually offensive, let's take a look at a black rapper's attempt at comedically conveying offensive topics in his music:
I fucked my cousin in his asshole, slit my mother's throat
Guess who Slim Shady just signed to Interscope
My little sister's birthday, she'll remember me
For a gift I had ten of my boys take her virginity
And bitches know me as a horny-ass freak
Their mother wasn't raped, I ate her pussy while she was sleep
Pissy-drunk, throwin' up in the urinal
(You fuckin' homo!) That's what I said at my dad's funeral

Meanwhile, check this Eminem verse FROM THE SAME EXACT SONG:
I get lifted and spin 'til I'm half-twisted
Feet planted and stand with a grin full of chapped lipstick
Pen full of ink, think sinful and rap sick shit
Shrink, pencil me in for my last visit
Drink gin 'til my chin's full of splashed whiskers
Hash, whiskey, and ash 'til I slap bitches
Ask Bizzy, he's been here the past six years
Mash with me again and imagine this

Not as "offensive" as you would say and the things he's saying are conveyed in a mildly more light-hearted, engaging manner.

"Also, PRO fails to notice that others are involved in rap, such as those of latino descent instead of the black and white races"

And yet you mention none of them.

"I’ll go ahead and describe how hip hop was already magnified by those other than white race, even though this is technically outside of what is sufficed by the BOP."

And yet you fail to mention that Beastie Boys, a white rap group, had the first ever hip-hop album to top the Billboard 200 with their 1986 album "License to Ill" and the second rap album to ever go platinum, with the first being Run DMC's "Raising Hill", which came out that same year. At this point, hip-hop had been an established genre for about a decade, but one of the first ever albums to go platinum was from a white group, proving that white people played a pivotal role in the growing popularity of hip-hop.

Another pivotal white rapper that helped bring the genre to new heights would be Robert Matthew Van Winkle, or as we know him, Vanilla Ice, who had the first ever rap song to top the Billboard Hot 100, as well as an accompanying album that came out the same year and sold 6 million copies in its first 14 weeks. Clearly, this album had a massive effect on people and pushed the genre to even greater commercial heights. And as I've mentioned prior, Vanilla Ice is an example of why white people perfected the genre of hip-hop, and even fulfills part of my opponent's definition of "perfect hip-hop" as his style had massive commercial appeal and could be enjoyed by a wide demographic of people, with factors that contribute to this being his general swagger, suburban confidence and slick personality that oozed through his music. Even 2Pac will tell you he was rocking with buddy.

So we already have crucial white rappers who have solidified their place in the genre's history, and we haven't even gotten to Eminem yet, who is the biggest rapper ever as we all know. He is credited for making hip-hop that appeals not just to core listeners of the genre, but also Middle American audiences and he's even achieved global success. Not even 2Pac or Biggie have done what Eminem had done to make hip-hop what it is today.

"Yet, the ones that contributed to this success are ALL BLACK."

Afraid not, Jack.

"Encore and Relapse are described to be “the worst albums ever”"

I personally disagree with this statement, but when have people ever said these things? The fact that you chose albums that were still moderate successes for him is weird considering there's a vary glaring elephant in the room, or should I say, his discography (Revival). So you went with the albums that don't really support your argument at all as Eminem has other albums that have been reviewed much more harshly than Encore and Relapse.

The reason why Encore is as inconsistent and all-over-the-place as it is is because much of the album was leaked online before its official release, so Eminem just took a bunch of pills and recorded some songs that may be very questionable and leave one concerned for his well-being but it made up for what was lost. Also the fact that Eminem was ballsy enough to put songs as weird and uncomfortable as "Rain Man", "Big Weenie", and "My First Single" on an album that he knew was already going to be very successful is both hilarious and incredible. Look at the album that sold 1.5M copies first week last year, that being Taylor Swift's "Midnights". Whether or not you took the album, nothing on there was genuinely wild or ballsy for a blockbuster album release. Eminem's Encore sold 4,000 more units and is also 4,000 times more weird, experimental, adventurous, and boundary-pushing. 

I got a question if I may? (Yeah)
Is it gay to play putt-putt golf with a friend (Yeah)
And watch his butt-butt when he tees off? (Yeah)
But, but I ain't done yet
In football the quarterback yells out hutt-hutt
While he reaches in another grown man's ass
Grabs on his nuts but just what if
It was never meant it was just an accident
But he tripped, fell, slipped and his penis went in
His teeny tiny little round hiney and he didn't mean it
But his little weenie flinched just a little bit
And I don't need to go into any more details but
What if he pictured it as a female's butt?
Is that gay? I just need to clear things up
'Til then I'll just walk around with a manly strut because

1.5 million people bought an album with these words on it, and as Mr. Perfection would like you to believe, if it appeals to a vast majority of music listeners, it's good. 

This also supports why white people perfected hip-hop. They're angstier, more imaginative, and more immature. All of these elements put together make for a more interesting listen than just boring street rap about shooting people conveyed so basically and mildly that it doesn't leave an impact. 

"He is described to be just “screaming into a microphone”"

Later in his career, he has developed some very bad habits such as rapping in a very annoying, stiff, staccato-like manner where he'd sound like a raging alcoholic, but all MCs have their prime, and Eminem was definitely way past it at this point. Have you even listened to an Eminem song? Where's the examples? I know more information that can derail my argument than you do and you're the one that's on the Con side. "Wow you just dissed yourself" This my 8 Mile final rap battle moment, muhfucka. Witness me.

"PRO says discussing how rap is imperfect is an “useless and irrelevant argument”. "

Only within the context of the debate. Clearly, the focus should be on white rappers and not the hip-hop art form as a whole, which is where most your comments are focused upon.


However:
  • PRO has not refuted claims about raps landing people in prison
Yes, that happens with black rappers. Not white rappers, the real masters of the craft who convey their murderous themes more comedically and absurdly than the average black rapper.

  • PRO has not refuted the sexual and misogynist nature of rap, and how that may be displeasing to certain people
Displeasing to some is not displeasing to all. "Stan" by Eminem is a fantastic display of hip-hop storytelling and that song uses the word "bitch". Does it derail the entirety of the song off of one word that is used? No, because no one would argue that, especially when it enhances certain points in the song.

  • PRO has not refuted how people listen to music for self-esteem
People do it. Not for all music however. "Fuck Love" by XXXTENTACION has 1.3 billion streams on Spotify, and that song is about being depressed about a girl. Who's listening to that for "self-esteem" exactly?

  • PRO has not refuted how White rappers such as Lil Dicky use the sexual and misogynist nature of rap
Nothing wrong with that as I've stated before. I get you think it's offensive, but all comedy involves an element of offense. In order to risk being funny, you have to risk being offensive, and that doesn't just apply to comedy. In order to have the ability to speak or express yourself in some way, you have to risk others being offended, but you should not let that stop you from getting your point across.

  • Even if some people may like sexual natures of rap, it does not appeal to certain people, being a flaw in rap. (perfect rap should be ideal and appeal to everyone)
Eminem sold 1.7 million copies first week. NF's christian rap BS sells around 100k-200k copies first week. Which artist do you think is more appealing in that instance?

Also another point.
You claim that if some people have a problem with something, it's not perfect. Some people have a problem with Jesus Christ. I rest my case.
Con
#8
Thanks for the round 4 arg.

This also supports why white people perfected hip-hop. They're angstier, more imaginative, and more immature. All of these elements put together make for a more interesting listen than just boring street rap about shooting people conveyed so basically and mildly that it doesn't leave an impact.

Only within the context of the debate. Clearly, the focus should be on white rappers and not the hip-hop art form as a whole, which is where most your comments are focused upon.

Displeasing to some is not displeasing to all. 

I get you think it's offensive, but all comedy involves an element of offense. In order to risk being funny, you have to risk being offensive, and that doesn't just apply to comedy. In order to have the ability to speak or express yourself in some way, you have to risk others being offended, but you should not let that stop you from getting your point across.

Eminem sold 1.7 million copies first week. NF's christian rap BS sells around 100k-200k copies first week. Which artist do you think is more appealing in that instance?

These are most of PRO’s claims in round 4. 

I can rebut them all with one claim: describing BOP.

While PRO’s arguments here describe how white rappers are better than black rappers, it in no way describes perfection. Thus, PRO fails the BOP as he doesn’t even prove his own question: how white rappers PERFECTED rap. He doesn’t really describe rap’s perfect state nor how it became perfect. 

Instead, I have pointed out many flaws in rap, and PRO even admitted that certain flaws are existing.

Later in his career, he has developed some very bad habits such as rapping in a very annoying, stiff, staccato-like manner where he'd sound like a raging alcoholic

Let’s put this simply:
  • If there is a problem, the problem is a flaw.
  • If there is a flaw, something isn’t perfect.
  • Therefore:
  • If there is a problem, something isn’t perfect.

“Very bad habits” like PRO describes is a problem with rap; therefore, rap isn’t perfect.

I feel like this is the sole argument I have repeating time and time over with PRO not actually refuting it, instead moving the goalpost to “how white people are better at rap than black people”.

I look forward to your r5 argument.

Dear voters, please vote CON.
Round 5
Pro
#9
That is not the core of the argument. I'm claiming that white people are superior at making hip-hop. If white people had absolutely no connection to my argument, I would've just said "Hip hop is perfect". But no, you choose to just spread your asscheeks and let me penetrate the esoteric truth in your fragile little asshole of lies that you allowed to consume the entirety of your head. Basically, your head is up your ass and you are a loser. Refute my argument, Batman.


Con
#10
Thank you for the round 5, PRO.

However, you have entirely moved the goalpost.


That is not the core of the argument. I'm claiming that white people are superior at making hip-hop. 


You have changed your debate itself to addressing the issue of “white people are superior than making hip-hop” instead of the actual and current issue, “white people perfected hip-hop”

Additionally, all of the arguments you have presented through the rounds have been only aligning to how white people are superior at making hip-hop, instead of how white people perfected hip-hop.

Instead, I have proven through the rounds that hip-hop was never perfected due to the offensive nature that can repel others (especially young audiences), which is a flaw in hip-hop. As such, hip-hop is not perfect due to flaws, and that means white people could have never perfected hip-hop because hip-hop is not perfect to begin with.

Therefore, I’d like to end the debate with the following:
  • I, CON, have satisfied my BOP completely by proving white people could have not perfected hip-hop because hip-hop is not perfect at all
  • PRO has never satisfied his BOP as he never provided reasonable evidence to prove the perfection of hip-hop, instead only white superiority in rap which the debate is not about.

Dear voters and readers of the debate, I’d also like comment on PRO’s usage of language throughout all rounds in addressing me:

R2:
  • Bitch this man killed people
  • Then don't let your kids listen to it, asshole.
R4:
  • This my 8 Mile final rap battle moment, muhfucka. 
R5:
  • But no, you choose to just spread your asscheeks and let me penetrate the esoteric truth in your fragile little asshole of lies that you allowed to consume the entirety of your head. Basically, your head is up your ass and you are a loser. 

You can address me as Average_Person, CON, or even "Contender" if you would like. No need for aggressive language.

With this, I would like to thank potential voters and readers for reading my debate, and I rest my case as CON as I have sufficiently satisfied BOP without reasonable rebuttals from PRO.