A believer in Jesus can get to Heaven, even if he does not repent of their sins.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
The debate is to resolve the question whether or not someone who claims to believe in Jesus is automatically assured of Heaven, no matter whether they live a righteous life or one of total debauchery.
"There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that tell you what you have to do to be saved; and it's believe on the Lord Jesus Christ... whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life... you see, salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ... He did all the work for salvation. We don't have to work our way in. We don't have to do our own works, turn a new leaf, or stop sinning; look, we just have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved."
"Let's say you do something bad after you believe in Jesus Christ... to do something as extreme as to commit murder. Obviously... that's gonna make God angry and He's gonna punish you, but it will come in this lifetime... but... a child of God is always a child of God."
"There are a few Bible passages that, at first glance, seem to teach salvation through faith plus works. One such is James 2:24, which appears to say that justification is by faith plus works: “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.”... Genuine faith in Christ, James says, will produce a changed life and result in good works (James 2:20–26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his or her life... Salvation comes by God’s grace through faith, and that faith is made manifest in good works. The works follow the faith and are a proof of it."
"The biggest difference I have with my opponent is that he believes salvation can be taken away due to how you act, and the Bible is directly opposed to that. Nowhere in the Bible does it say this, and Catholics only believe this because they read verses out of context."
"The Bible teaches that people can lose their chance at salvation while alive (Romans 4)... So you can lose your salvation while alive. You just can't lose it once you have it because it's an eternal gift."
"Keeping the commandments isn't necessary for salvation but is necessary for order in this world."
My opponnent believes the two following things:
1) It's possible for a caninablistic, pedophile serial killer to get into heaven
2) A saved person who doesn't help someone with a flat tire will get sent to hell
I believe the opposite.
A cannibalistic pedophile serial killer has no chance of getting into heaven.
And a saved person who doesn't help with a flat tire will get into heaven.
That's really what this debate is about.
And the foolishness and craziness with Catholics doesn't stop there.
Catholics *literally* believe they're eating the body of Christ when they eat their bread at communion.
They *literally* believe they're drinking the blood of Christ when they drink wine at communion.
Catholics don't believe it's an analogy. They believe in transmutation where the bread and blood literally are these things.
This is just another example of the Catholic's absurd understanding of the Bible and constantly reading verses wrong.
Want more?
Jesus had this to say about prayer "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
So how do Catholics "repent of their sins?" By "vainly" repeating Hail Mary's for an arbitrary amount of time.
The Bible cleary states you should only pray to God "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly" Mathew 6:6
So who do Catholics pray to? Mary! A women with no special powers to grant prayer.
Their argument is they ask her to pray for on them but she's dead! She can't pray for anyone.
What does the Bible say about calling people father? "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Mathew 23:9
So what do the Catholics call the leaders of their church? Father!
A Catholic will say well don't you call your own father, father? And I would say yes because he's my actual father!
What does the Bible say about church leaders that wear long robes and want to stand out from the crowd? "Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples, Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation." Luke 20:45-47
So what do Catholic priests do? Dress themselves in long robes to get the admiration from people.
Do Catholic leaders not sit in thrones with "the highest seats" in their cathedrals and in the Vatican?
The Bible clearly states men with long hair are shameful: Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 1 Corinthians 11:14.
Walk into any Catholic church and what do you see? A long haired Jesus hanging from a cross.
The Bible explictly states not to create a big show about faith in Mathew 6:16-18 "Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly."
So what do Catholics do every ash wednesday? They walk around with ash crosses on their forehead to show everyone what good Catholics they are.
The Bible says "they have their reward" and it won't be rewards in heaven.
There's a million examples of this blatant hypocrisy with Catholics.
We won't even get into the rampant pedophilia and not allowing priests to get married, which is not somthing you'll find the Bible saying to do.
I won't mention how insane the idea of a Pope is, especially one that regurarly speaks against the Bible.
I won't get into the history of the Catholic church and all their bloodshed.
But I am genuilely concerned about your salvation and I'm concerned about the salvation of anyone who is reading this.
I can completely understand how you've been turned off by Christianity if all you know of it is Catholicism.
Catholicism is a complete joke and your instincts about Catholicism is correct.
But please understand Catholicism isn't Christianity.
In order to get into heaven you don't need to eat bread, drink wine, say hail marys, pray to dead women, call church leaders father, ignore pedophilia, or any of the other silly nonsense Catholics believe.
All you have to do is go to the most famous Bible verse of all time to see how to get saved "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
That's it.
There's nothing more to salvation than accepting the "free gift of God" that is "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Roamns 6:23
Salvation is a gift that requires no work to be done on your part.
What you do in this world determines your status in heaven but won't effect your entry into heaven.
God LOVES you.
And if you put your faith into Jesus you become his CHILD "To all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” John 1:12.
This is what Jesus said about salvation and being childlike: "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me."
Think about a small child in your life.
Do they need to work to earn your love? Of course not. You and I don't require little children to do anything for our love and protection.
And under no circustances would you EVER abandon your little child for what they've done.
You may punish them from time to time for their own benefit but they're still your child.
And what did God say about the rewards he has for his children?
"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Mathew 7:9-11
God is greater than any of us could possibly understand and he treats us better than any of us could possibly treat our own children.
If you and I, being evil, would NEVER abandon a small child for acting out, do you think God will abandon you after you've become his child?
Of course not.
The Bible promises if you genuilely put your faith in Jesus and believe he died for your sins and was resurrected, you are saved and become a child of God.
And you won't be sent to hell for not helping someone change their tire like my opponent believes.
If you're still not sure who has won this debate just remember: Catholics believe a wafer mass produced in some New Jersey factory somehow *literally* turns into the body of Christ.
If Catholics get confused about things like this, it's not a stretch to see how they could also get confused about salvation.
I was interested in this debate as Biblical topics are always interesting to me. The claim that con was making was that Pro supported a "once saved, always saved" idea. Pro debates this notion by stating that works alone do not save you. Con was able to bring out that works are necessary to be saved per the Bible and Pro was able to show quite a bit to state that faith saves also. They were neck in neck until the final round, in my opinion, when Pro started bashing Con's catholic views and not the topic itself. Otherwise, I would have given this a tie. Both had used the Bible as their sources, though it seemed that Con used a Catholic Bible instead of a King James. This probably should have been verified before the debate started since there is a slight tweak to some passages that leans in Con's favor with a Catholic Bible. They both were decent in their approach and it was easy to understand on each side. I believe that both had good conduct and did not lean to name calling.
Overall, decent debate and I enjoyed it.
BTW, what do you Catholics think of Jack Chick or his biography of Alberto Riveria.
Point made. I will dig through what I have. I haven't looked at my books for a while, but I know that Jack Chick and Milton Carroll are not in the set.
Would you accept if I brought up the National Enquirer or The Onion as a source to back up the existence of aliens on Mars? I don't think you would. You'd say "duhhh give me CNN or NASA u retard".
So my standard is historical sources from an accredited researcher of Christianity. An example would be Adrian Hastings' "World History of Christianity"; he was a historian with a degree from Worcester College in Oxford. Or Diarmaid McCulloch's (St. Cross' College, Oxford) book on such.
A Jewish-backed fraud like Jack Chick or his Mexican buddy, "Trail of Blood" by James Milton Carroll, or something similar DOES NOT COUNT.
So you are saying that if they are not sources approved from you, I can't claim them as sources?
Who or what would be a "reliable" source I can cite?
I can almost guarantee you your sources are not by peer-reviewed historians. But that's fine with me if you don't want to engage further.
The point is if you cite smth as historical fact without backing it up, well... to quote Hitchens "Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". "Bigfoot is real" and "6 million Jews died in the Holocaust" would be valid historical facts even if they are kooky
I would rather run this in a forum or a debate, not in the comments section, but for sources I would have to dig through my books.
Give me some time for direct sources.
I never said you were Jewish, I merely said that you make the same arguments as one would. Really? If it's so obvious then surely there should be a few peer-reviewed historical articles that speak to it. Provide or bust
Appreciate your objectivity in assessing the debate though, I can respect that.
That's just not true, unfortunately. All your leaders separated from the catholic church out of rebellion to it (which is understandable considering it's blatant misuse of the bible), but took with them all the catholic dogma of God and baptism. You, being a Baptist, are still considered a child of the "holy Roman empire" because of this.
I'm not Jewish and I didn't think I needed historical references for something so blatantly obvious. All the Catholic rites can be traced to pagan origins in the known world at the time from the reign of Constantine. He established the Catholic church as the dominant religion and made all paganism illegal. That's when the catholic church became filled with the pagan rites of candles, kissing statues, prayers to a mother God, the cross as a Christian symbol, long haired effeminate Jesus, etc, because the catholic church wanted to fill their coffers with the money of the pagan people. "Sure, you can come to church here. You kiss statues of dead relatives? No problem, we got one here for you, just pay your tithes and offerings. You pray to the virgin mother Isis? No problem! You can just call her Mary. Pay up! We'll keep your rites and save your life from that goofy emperor Constantine."
I don't really think you refuted any of the verses or concepts I mentioned in any of my arguments. You didn't even attempt to engage with "repent of your sins." And you didn't engage with repenting meaning to go TOWARDS sin in some cases. Weak.
Funny you say I'm cooked in your last "argument" (which hardly counts as a refutation)! The reality is, you haven't even bothered to defend against my charges that you pick-and-choose Scripture without harmonizing it 😂
Thanks for at least showing up to the debate, unlike most Andersonites I know! I intend to post this debate on Twitter (feel free to do so as well on your account). I hope you don't mind that.
Baptists are really the only demoniation that isn't associated with Catholicism. Protestants come from Catholicism. Baptists can trace their teachings before the Catholic Church and seperate from it.
That's not an argument. That's like saying that just because there's a chance that you won't get caught for stealing, you can do it. Will you really take that gamble?
However, sin in and of itself is an action that causes spiritual wounding (Psalm 41:3-4), and as a result, depending on the gravity of it, can either diminish or separate our relationship with God. It is the second part that I am concerned with: hence, that whosoever continues to wilfully sin, and not repent - make amends of that relationship with God - no hope of Heaven is available for them.
God can the same way a police officer can commit murder and arson. They can obviously do that, it is that they really, really don't want to do that, just that.
Then why does He frequently warn of eternal punishment for the wicked all throughout Scripture? If as you say God can admit someone who died in a state of sin to Heaven, that leads to salient problems with what the fullness of Scripture teaches. Even if He could, it's an unwise gamble in light of the above.
Respectfully, you sound like a Jew here, claiming Christianity first started from a pagan source with no historical citation other than your own ipse dixit (or, maybe Dr. Fraudci's crack stash). You do know that the Jews of the Temple era (who were Christians) also had the same thing going on right?
Ah. The blind leading the blind here. Catholics add so much to their doctrine. It came from so much pagan sources. Almost everything in the Catholic church came from a pagan source, from their garb, to their rites, to their prayers, genuflects etc.
However, Baptists are just daughters from that same Catholic church. Do you know how that is? Because they endorse the baptism of Father, Son, & Holy Ghost. Looks like a family squabble in this debate, the mother telling the daughters how to behave.
“Can” implies the possibility or the possession of an ability, and by that, I firmly hold the PRO position in that of course God can do that(if God exists as said), God just chooses not to do, just like I can crash a car or kill myself, I just choose not to do that.