Instigator / Pro
7
1510
rating
63
debates
53.97%
won
Topic
#4617
In order to properly practice Christianity, you must strive for Entire Sanctification
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
0
Better legibility
1
0
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...
FishChaser
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1
1476
rating
336
debates
40.77%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
Entire Sanctification is the process of ridding yourself of all sin and becoming the perfect Christian. It is mostly associated with the Methodist denomination founded by John Wesley. My position is that Jesus would not only approve of this teaching but it is basically what Jesus already told his followers to strive for. Most Christian denominations regard sin as something to be avoided but also accepted to an extent. This is both lazy and contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus says to "be perfect"
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
You can't have it both ways
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Con
#2
According to wikipedia, "Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth."
Now where can we find what Jesus of Nazareth taught?
In the book of scripture... called the bible.
Let's look at what Jesus said in John 15 and we begin at verse 1..
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener."
He's the true vine. Okkkkkkk.
What else would you have us to learn Lord Jesus?
Verse 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
Pay close attention to that latter part. Then look back at the title of this debate.
"In order to properly practice Christianity, you must strive for Entire Sanctification"
In order to do anything, anything, anything towards following Christianity which consists of laws, the teachings of Jesus, ceremonies, customs, commandments, you must be connected to the vine. You are a branch. So there is no "you must " anything. It's the vine that has you to do what you are able to do.
That's the first refutation. Now the "entire sanctification" part, I'll be looking for clarity on from the other side.
"Entire Sanctification is the process of ridding yourself of all sin and becoming the perfect Christian. It is mostly associated with the Methodist denomination founded by John Wesley. My position is that Jesus would not only approve of this teaching but it is basically what Jesus already told his followers to strive for. Most Christian denominations regard sin as something to be avoided but also accepted to an extent. This is both lazy and contrary to the teachings of Jesus."
Now harmonize all of this what you said with John 15. You will have to leave out Mr. John Wesley, Methodist denominations. It won't harmonize. This is why we have all these denominations. They're not on accord with scripture. These folks come up with their own thing, inventing sectors.
The remaining scriptures provided, it looks like "entire sanctification" means being perfect, bottom line being holy. There are those that believe so called Christians can or can't stop sinning after being a so called new creature in Christ.
Perhaps now , we both have the same view except about who wills and does to make holiness possible even in sinful flesh.
Round 2
Pro
#3
So con is essentially downplaying that there is a "practice" of Christianity and saying as long as you are attached to the vine of Jesus you're fine and thus he is ignoring all of Jesus's teachings and commands. What is the fruit that Jesus is referring to? Con would have you believe that you need not bear good fruits so long as you are attached to the vine but that defeats the purpose of the metaphor.
In the words of Jesus, it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. It doth not becometh us to cherry pick one or two lines from the bible and use them as an excuse to not strive to follow all of Christ's teachings and commandments as much as possible.
In the words of Jesus, it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. It doth not becometh us to cherry pick one or two lines from the bible and use them as an excuse to not strive to follow all of Christ's teachings and commandments as much as possible.
Con
#4
"So con is essentially downplaying that there is a "practice" of Christianity and saying as long as you are attached to the vine of Jesus you're fine and thus he is ignoring all of Jesus's teachings and commands.What is the fruit that Jesus is referring to?"
The scripture says of all thy getting, get understanding. Let me explain this again so that you can understand what it is being said to you this time. Anything that you do in Christ is fruit because John 15, go back and read it, meditate on it, get understanding on it, you do nothing, nothing, nothing away from the vine. Read John 15, he is the true vine.
So how can you ignore Jesus when HE IS THE VINE FROM WHICH EVERYTHING YOU DO IS PRODUCED FROM?
Either you're ignoring that passage or ignoring me which is the same difference . John 15 mentions pruning the branch that it brings not just fruit but MUCH fruit.
Let's not get away from the fact that YOU SAID, you made the title using the words YOU MUST. YOU ARE JUST A BRANCH. It's not you producing anything. At least not in Christ.
Romans 8 speaks of having the spirit of Christ. What is the fruit? Being that you have the spirit, you have the fruit of the spirit. You live in the spirit. You live after the spirit. The spirit leads you. You don't lead yourself and do the best you can.
No no the scripture says, I can do all things through Christ. All this lines up .
"Con would have you believe that but that defeats the purpose of the metaphor."
Wow like wow. Did you actually read what I said?
You're not doing this on purpose are you?
Are you pretending to go opposite of what I said?
Nobody has to believe or disbelieve anything. Just read . Where did I say "you need not bear good fruits so long as you are attached to the vine"?
Please quote where I stated that. You produce fruit period because of the vine. It's because of the vine, because of it. Scriptures says o fools, and slow of heart.
"In the words of Jesus, it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. It doth not becometh us to cherry pick one or two lines from the bible and use them as an excuse to not strive to follow all of Christ's teachings and commandments as much as possible."
Right, don't cherry pick and how do you avoid doing that? You HARMONIZE ALLL OF THE SCRIPTURES. Now I notice you DID NOT DO THAT.
You had your chance. Step aside, back out the way , I'll do it.
Now the scripture you brought, Matthew 5
"48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Now line upon line with John 15
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
So which is it? Is it be perfect or can't you do anything to be anything before the heavenly Father?
I dare you find me scripture that Jesus Christ was not perfect?
So there you are perfect in Jesus that true vine. According to your title "you must" this and that. Wrong. Scriptures says not of works that any man should boast.
That's how you line those scriptures up. When you cherry pick, you don't line them up and pit one against the other.
Round 3
Pro
#5
What con is now saying amounts to "the spirit leads you to strive for entire sanctification just like Jesus told you to". If you are attached to the vine of Christ you must do so because that is what the vine leads you to do. Realistically though, the motivation for acting like a Christian comes through faith in Christ or at least his teachings. There is no magical vine that makes you bear fruit IRL because even if Christianity is true you must (yes, YOU MUST) first have faith and then consciously start acting like Jesus wants you to. It starts with you must and ends with you must.
Con has effectively accepted entire sanctification, now he just needs to accept that you are doing things through Christ and Christ is doing things through you and that means you must do things.
Con has effectively accepted entire sanctification, now he just needs to accept that you are doing things through Christ and Christ is doing things through you and that means you must do things.
Con
#6
"What con is now saying amounts to "the spirit leads you to strive for entire sanctification just like Jesus told you to"."
O fools and slow of heart. You somewhat got it but you're just reading the scriptures. I wonder if I was your Sunday school teacher, you'd be apt to learn.
We don't read in John 15 that there's a strive to bring forth fruit. We just do being in the vine. I don't believe we read anywhere in scripture that the Spirit leads you to strive. You like many probably believe a salvation of works of your own.
We read in Romans 8
"14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
It doesn't say led by the spirit to strive.
Then I noticed the double talk . Your statement uses the words "leads you to strive" , then you follow it up with the words "told you to".
Well which is it? Are you told to strive or told what you are?
The conflict you've had with this subject is a false doctrine of works synergistic teaching.
"Realistically though, the motivation for acting like a Christian comes through faith in Christ or at least his teachings. "
Does "realistically" mean "scripturally "?
See I keep drawing you back to John 15. Give scripture to back your position up. Don't ad lib with your thoughts. The scripture says let God be true and every man a liar.
Ain't no "realistically though ". There is no however and on the other jazz. What does that scripture say in John 15? If you actually are a believer, it's just AMEN. In terms of this debate, you concede to the point.
"There is no magical vine that makes you bear fruit IRL because even if Christianity is true you must (yes, YOU MUST) first have faith and then consciously start acting like Jesus wants you to. It starts with you must and ends with you must."
Let God be true and every man a liar.
Now the scripture said nothing of a magical vine, but you don't appear that you acknowledge as the scripture says he's the true vine and YOU CAN DO NOTHING apart from.
You deny the scripture. Maybe you lack awareness. That could be why you have no leg to stand on.
Romans 10
"3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
See this knocks out this false doctrine promoting yourself trying to be righteous all your own.
"4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
You said "ends with you must."
(In Gino Jennings voice) LLLLLLIAR!!!!
For righteousness of the law ENDS WITH CHRIST, NOT YOU .
IT SAYS CHRIST.
If you say it begins with you, now you're acting ignorant to God's righteousness where He had Christ fulfill the law of righteousness. Scriptures says he came to fulfill the law so if it starts with you, it didn't start with Christ.
See you're giving me more of your thinking and argumentation than giving scripture. You haven't harmonized any scripture or come back with more lines of scripture to line up your position.
I give you scripture, you dismiss it and come back with your words instead of doing what the scriptures says speaking as the oracles of God.
Taking you back to John 15,
"16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"
How is it going to start with you when He chose you to do what you're going to do?
This is what I mean by just dropping these scriptures and coming up with your own doctrine.
As soon as you stated "realistically", red flags just waved and flapped all around. Got nothing to do with what's realistic to you. It's what's in these scriptures.
Unless you're manufacturing some other kind of religion, the topic mentioned Christianity.
"According to wikipedia, "Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth."
Now where can we find what Jesus of Nazareth taught?
In the book of scripture... called the bible."
There's no bible for "you must strive" as if it's of your own righteousness. I'd advise you to correct that for future references. Keep this in mind when using those terms.
Not of works says the bible.
Go to Ephesians 2.
"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Ties back to John 15. You don't save yourself, it doesn't start with you. It sure doesn't end with you. You don't give the gift to yourself. You have nothing to boast about.
"9 not by works, so that no one can boast. "
Nothing to boast about. Throw that "you must" out of there like it's all you.
"10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Ties again to John 15 line upon line it continues to line up , all of this.
Created to do good works. The fruit brought forth , the good works, you didn't start with it because you didn't create it.
Scriptures teaches in Matthew 7 a good tree produces good fruit. Oh taste and see that the Lord is good.
Stay out the bible if you're not going to be all the way and from topics like these. No place to be lukewarm and halfhearted.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
I have become more comfortable expressing my onions in votes, as I think it really helps show the tendency of bias. I tend to be extra critical of positions that I would tend to support.
In this debate, I disagree with Pro. However the resolution is a tough one, the word Entire to me seems rather aggressively all-encompassing. A debate is about the resolution, the description, the rules and the performance of the participants. In this debate, Pro won, handily. There are 3 reasons:
1. Pro created a very clear structure of their argument, connecting the overall goals of Jesus for obtaining moral perfection, and that being a cornerstone of Christianity. I think Jesus was far more tolerant of poor and sinful decisions, as a cornerstone to flawed humanity, and sanctification would not be "entire". However Pro made some very valid points supporting their position.
Con on the other hand reduced humanity to a grape on a vine, with no freewill, and removed the fundamental direct conscious elements of atonement required by Christian thinking. Maybe that is not what Con was saying... More later.
2. Pro used proper sourcing, which was helpful for me to connect the dots, that I did not agree with. Pro has not changed my mind, however, Pro makes a few great points. that are supported. Con did not provide structure or sources.
3. Con, I have said countless times, your formatting sucks. It is so hard to read your debates and follow what is going on.
Finally, I am also becoming a fan of what Pro did here, and I have seen it from others, and that is closing further rounds down quicker. Stay focused on the issues not addressed, rather than create more noise.
Matthew 22
" Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures".
It isn't necesary in heaven I guess, but Jesus never implied war or slavery etc. wouldn't be a thing on earth.
Ok, I accept that. Care to reword it? If peace can occur without violence then why is it necessary in Christianity?
That entire proposition is weaponized against me, no pun intended. Based on the way it's worded you only need one example of peace without violence.
Can you start a debate, for me only with this resolution
"Violence is always necessary for peace. For Slainte only."
You are Pro, I am Con, 3 rounds, 10k character limit.
By conducting the lesser of two violences when conducive to lessering the overall level of violence.
How can you have peace with violence?
Because everyone isn't going to behave as a Christian which is something Jesus knew.
If everyone behaves as a Christian, then why would anyone need to keep the peace?
If you changed the debate to be Owning a Slave is Consitant with Christian Teachings, I would take that.
Sometimes to keep the peace you must wave a large whoopin' stick at potential trouble makers or even administer a spanking with one. Jesus himself is prophesized to return to kick Satan's ass.
Also just because someone is your slave doesn't mean you have to treat them bad.
And how is war and slavery supported by "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12)
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God" (Matthew 5:9).
I fail to see which contradictions I am avoiding. I am not aware of Jesus trying to abolish slavery or war.
You are saying that "violently keeping the peace or slavery " is not sinning, so effectively you are justifying some behaviour to avoid the clear contradictions in the Bible?
Properly practicing Christianity is simply doing what Jesus says to do.
Biblically speaking, I don't think violently keeping the peace or slavery or eating meat are inherently sinful. The good Lord has blessed us with many excuses to commit acts of violence and to force servitude upon others throughout history. Whether or not you can even become sinless isn't necessarily the issue though. Jesus wants you to try instead of saying "oh well".
what does "properly practice" mean?
You cannot avoid sin. If you live in a peaceful world it is because you directly benefit from violent men keeping the peace. If your clothes are affordable it is due to the child slaves that Nike hires among almost every other clothing brand. If you eat meat you have made the slaughter of an innocent being profitable.
It is best to embrace these things, not wrap yourself in some holy shroud and pretend you are above them. The only people above this are probably living in caves in Africa with very short lifespans.
Entire Sanctification is the process of ridding yourself of all sin and becoming the perfect Christian. It is mostly associated with the Methodist denomination founded by John Wesley. My position is that Jesus would not only approve of this teaching but it is basically what Jesus already told his followers to strive for. Most Christian denominations regard sin as something to be avoided but also accepted to an extent. This is both lazy and contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
Any description to help guide conversation?
What is thns sanctification?