"What con is now saying amounts to "the spirit leads you to strive for entire sanctification just like Jesus told you to"."
O fools and slow of heart. You somewhat got it but you're just reading the scriptures. I wonder if I was your Sunday school teacher, you'd be apt to learn.
We don't read in John 15 that there's a strive to bring forth fruit. We just do being in the vine. I don't believe we read anywhere in scripture that the Spirit leads you to strive. You like many probably believe a salvation of works of your own.
We read in Romans 8
"14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
It doesn't say led by the spirit to strive.
Then I noticed the double talk . Your statement uses the words "leads you to strive" , then you follow it up with the words "told you to".
Well which is it? Are you told to strive or told what you are?
The conflict you've had with this subject is a false doctrine of works synergistic teaching.
"Realistically though, the motivation for acting like a Christian comes through faith in Christ or at least his teachings. "
Does "realistically" mean "scripturally "?
See I keep drawing you back to John 15. Give scripture to back your position up. Don't ad lib with your thoughts. The scripture says let God be true and every man a liar.
Ain't no "realistically though ". There is no however and on the other jazz. What does that scripture say in John 15? If you actually are a believer, it's just AMEN. In terms of this debate, you concede to the point.
"There is no magical vine that makes you bear fruit IRL because even if Christianity is true you must (yes, YOU MUST) first have faith and then consciously start acting like Jesus wants you to. It starts with you must and ends with you must."
Let God be true and every man a liar.
Now the scripture said nothing of a magical vine, but you don't appear that you acknowledge as the scripture says he's the true vine and YOU CAN DO NOTHING apart from.
You deny the scripture. Maybe you lack awareness. That could be why you have no leg to stand on.
Romans 10
"3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
See this knocks out this false doctrine promoting yourself trying to be righteous all your own.
"4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
You said "ends with you must."
(In Gino Jennings voice) LLLLLLIAR!!!!
For righteousness of the law ENDS WITH CHRIST, NOT YOU .
IT SAYS CHRIST.
If you say it begins with you, now you're acting ignorant to God's righteousness where He had Christ fulfill the law of righteousness. Scriptures says he came to fulfill the law so if it starts with you, it didn't start with Christ.
See you're giving me more of your thinking and argumentation than giving scripture. You haven't harmonized any scripture or come back with more lines of scripture to line up your position.
I give you scripture, you dismiss it and come back with your words instead of doing what the scriptures says speaking as the oracles of God.
Taking you back to John 15,
"16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"
How is it going to start with you when He chose you to do what you're going to do?
This is what I mean by just dropping these scriptures and coming up with your own doctrine.
As soon as you stated "realistically", red flags just waved and flapped all around. Got nothing to do with what's realistic to you. It's what's in these scriptures.
Unless you're manufacturing some other kind of religion, the topic mentioned Christianity.
"According to wikipedia, "Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth."
Now where can we find what Jesus of Nazareth taught?
In the book of scripture... called the bible."
There's no bible for "you must strive" as if it's of your own righteousness. I'd advise you to correct that for future references. Keep this in mind when using those terms.
Not of works says the bible.
Go to Ephesians 2.
"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Ties back to John 15. You don't save yourself, it doesn't start with you. It sure doesn't end with you. You don't give the gift to yourself. You have nothing to boast about.
"9 not by works, so that no one can boast. "
Nothing to boast about. Throw that "you must" out of there like it's all you.
"10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Ties again to John 15 line upon line it continues to line up , all of this.
Created to do good works. The fruit brought forth , the good works, you didn't start with it because you didn't create it.
Scriptures teaches in Matthew 7 a good tree produces good fruit. Oh taste and see that the Lord is good.
Stay out the bible if you're not going to be all the way and from topics like these. No place to be lukewarm and halfhearted.
Matthew 22
" Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures".
It isn't necesary in heaven I guess, but Jesus never implied war or slavery etc. wouldn't be a thing on earth.
Ok, I accept that. Care to reword it? If peace can occur without violence then why is it necessary in Christianity?
That entire proposition is weaponized against me, no pun intended. Based on the way it's worded you only need one example of peace without violence.
Can you start a debate, for me only with this resolution
"Violence is always necessary for peace. For Slainte only."
You are Pro, I am Con, 3 rounds, 10k character limit.
By conducting the lesser of two violences when conducive to lessering the overall level of violence.
How can you have peace with violence?
Because everyone isn't going to behave as a Christian which is something Jesus knew.
If everyone behaves as a Christian, then why would anyone need to keep the peace?
If you changed the debate to be Owning a Slave is Consitant with Christian Teachings, I would take that.
Sometimes to keep the peace you must wave a large whoopin' stick at potential trouble makers or even administer a spanking with one. Jesus himself is prophesized to return to kick Satan's ass.
Also just because someone is your slave doesn't mean you have to treat them bad.
And how is war and slavery supported by "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12)
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God" (Matthew 5:9).
I fail to see which contradictions I am avoiding. I am not aware of Jesus trying to abolish slavery or war.
You are saying that "violently keeping the peace or slavery " is not sinning, so effectively you are justifying some behaviour to avoid the clear contradictions in the Bible?
Properly practicing Christianity is simply doing what Jesus says to do.
Biblically speaking, I don't think violently keeping the peace or slavery or eating meat are inherently sinful. The good Lord has blessed us with many excuses to commit acts of violence and to force servitude upon others throughout history. Whether or not you can even become sinless isn't necessarily the issue though. Jesus wants you to try instead of saying "oh well".
what does "properly practice" mean?
You cannot avoid sin. If you live in a peaceful world it is because you directly benefit from violent men keeping the peace. If your clothes are affordable it is due to the child slaves that Nike hires among almost every other clothing brand. If you eat meat you have made the slaughter of an innocent being profitable.
It is best to embrace these things, not wrap yourself in some holy shroud and pretend you are above them. The only people above this are probably living in caves in Africa with very short lifespans.
Entire Sanctification is the process of ridding yourself of all sin and becoming the perfect Christian. It is mostly associated with the Methodist denomination founded by John Wesley. My position is that Jesus would not only approve of this teaching but it is basically what Jesus already told his followers to strive for. Most Christian denominations regard sin as something to be avoided but also accepted to an extent. This is both lazy and contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
Any description to help guide conversation?
What is thns sanctification?