Instigator / Pro
2
1524
rating
53
debates
75.47%
won
Topic
#4654
Prophet (SAW) from Islamic Religion was a Pedophile.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Winner
2
2
After 2 votes and with the same amount of points on both sides...
It's a tie!
Judges
RationalMadman
567 debates /
861 votes
Voted
Best.Korea
274 debates /
62 votes
Voted
Sir.Lancelot
182 debates /
79 votes
No vote
DavidAZ
8 debates /
34 votes
No vote
Parameters
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- Last updated date
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- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Six months
- Point system
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- Voting system
- Judges
Contender / Con
2
1500
rating
3
debates
33.33%
won
Description
Resolution: Prophet (SAW) from Islamic Religion was a Pedophile.
Pro: Prophet (SAW) from Islamic Religion was a Pedophile
Con: Prophet (SAW) from Islamic Religion was not a Pedophile.
Willing to change definitions if asked. Otherwise, these are the current set definitions.
Pedophile: a person who is sexually attracted to children.
https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/
Child groomer: Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them.
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/what-is-child-abuse/types-of-abuse/grooming/
Child: A child is a human being who is not yet an adult.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/child
Adult: An adult is a mature, fully developed person.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/adult
Any other definitions should be stated in the beginning of round one (unless introduced later on), other than that, any other words should be used in there primary context.
--
Rules:
1. Burden of proof is shared.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Thanks tigerlord,
I tried to make this as short as possible. I'll further as we go.
Point
Case
The following will be talked about:
- Aisha is not an Adult
- Prophet (SAW) was an Adult
- Difference between a child and adult
- Aisha being a child, and Prophet (SAW) being an adult = Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile
- Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile regardless of Islamic beliefs
Burden
The burden is shared between both users, pro and con.
Pro must prove that Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile
Con must prove that Prophet (SAW) was not a pedophile
In the process, I will mostly be providing that because Aisha was a child and Prophet (SAW) was an adult, he was a pedophile.
Definitions:
Pedophile: a person who is sexually attracted to children.
Child groomer: Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them.
Child: A child is a human being who is not yet an adult.
Adult: An adult is a mature, fully developed person.
Assumptions
I wanted to clear a few assumptions that may be made in this debate.
1. "Prophet (SAW) had married others before that weren't children meaning he wasn't a pedophile"
First off, that is incorrect.
People have had a relationship with adults, however, still can be sexually attracted to children as well, making them a pedophile.
2. "Aisha had puberty = adult"
That is incorrect. Having puberty does not mean you are capable of being an adult, and in fact even shows your not fully developed yet.
With that said, I will address later in this debate on what an actual adult is.
3. "Marriage during that time had different age ranges and was accepted meaning Prophet (SAW) was not a pedophile"
This debate does not regard anything about if marriage was acceptable during that time.
Even if she was in that age range, the reason it wouldn't matter is because this debate is about if Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile. In that time, people can be a pedophile but the marriage itself might be accepted.
Contentions
I. Aisha was a child when she got married
Aisha is estimated to be six year old, however many others also say Aisha may be six to nine years old at the time of marriage.
Let's go into depth about her actually, in reality, being six to seven years old.
1.
"Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."
2.
Narrated 'A'isha :
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old, and he (the Holy Prophet) took her to his house when she was nine, and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old
3.
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls."
There are many others, but let's use those three. All three show that she was of the age of six, not eighteen, nine, eight, etc.
This shows by itself, that she was a child. So in terms of attraction, Prophet (SAW) married and had sex with a child.
II. Fully grown and Maturity
Base of Maturity
An adult per definition is being full grown have having maturity.
I wanted to go into depths about both things.
1. Being fully developed
2. Maturity
This raises the question, was Aisha an adult under both standards?
I will use both standards in an interchangeable manner.
These are the three things that regard it:
- Sexually developed/mature
- Physically developed/mature
- Mentally developed/mature
Sexually Mature
"Humans are sexually mature after puberty, but puberty can start anywhere between ages 8 and 13 for girls and between ages 9 and 14 for boys"
You are sexually mature after puberty not beginning puberty, not in the middle, but after.
So, even if Aisha had gotten puberty early, she had not fully been through puberty.
Brain Maturity
Now, let's come down to your brain. When does your brain fully develop in order to reach maturity?
At the age of 25 you have full maturity.
"The rational part of a teen's brain isn't fully developed and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain's rational part."
Considering the fact that Aisha was nowhere near that age, can she be considered to have maturity of the level that adult's have maturity? No.
Maturity of giving consent
With that said, it is was clear that it would be impossible for a six year old to give consent.
I will say however, while the PFC develops several complex functions at age twelve, Aisha was not age twelve. In fact she was half that age.
I have another site to back this up:
"All of cognitive functions seem to reach a relative plateau of maturity at about the age of 12 years. For example, development of attention reach maturity at about age 12, Working memory and planning seem to develop also at the same pace and toward the same plateau (about 12 years)."
Islamic religion itself
Let's actually go into where they talk about her as a little girl:
"Narrated `Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)"
It quite literally states itself, at that time, Aisha was a little girl.
So, already, we see that Aisha at the age of six, she was a little girl. Confirmed by the sources themselves without science.
As I state down below, with Prophet (SAW)'s attraction as she was a little girl just goes to show he was a pedophile.
Furthermore..
The History of al-Tabari Vol. 9: The Last Years of the Prophet” (page 128) states:
“As for 'A’ishah, when he married her she was very young and not yet ready for consummation ..
877. She was six years old when the Prophet married her in Shawwal, tenth year of the mission. The marriage was consummated in Shawwal in Medina when she was nine years old. She died in Ramaḍān 58/678. Ibn Sa'd, Tabaqāt, VIII, 39-56; Baladhuri, Ansāb, 1, 409–21.”
Get the reading free here: https://archive.org/stream/tabarivolume09/Tabari_Volume_09_djvu.txt
She was six years old, and married and it even states that she was "very young and not ready for consummation" but still, he attracted existed.
With all that, this reference doesn't even tell us what "ready" means. What will ready ever mean for Islam religion?
Two things:
- Doesn't reveal that she even reached puberty
- Even if she did reach puberty it does not make her an adult
III. Sexual Attraction and Attraction
Both attractions are one of the same
In order to have a sexual attraction and arousal, you must also have to have attraction.
In this case, it is shown that Prophet (SAW) had attraction to Aisha which lead to his overall sexual attraction in a young girl, a child.
Prophet (SAW) showed interest and pleasure in Aisha. As of which as said, his romantic attraction had also become a sexual attraction and sexual relationship with Aisha.
Prophet (SAW) was attracted to Aisha, hence, the marriage. Prophet (SAW) had a sexual attraction to a child.
Prophet (SAW) had intercourse with Aisha
"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)."
"The Prophet married Aishah when she was seven years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and he passed away when she was eighteen."
Having intercourse with a child shows even more to prove the fact, Prophet (SAW) indeed was a pedophile.
IV. Conclusion
In light of all this, we can clearly see that Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile. He had an attraction to her, a romantic and sexual relationship with Aisha, a child. Aisha clearly had not met all standards to be even considered an adult, making her a child.
Aisha was a child, Prophet (SAW) had an attraction to Aisha and in reality that makes him a pedophile.
I'll hand it to you now con.
Con
#2
This is the link of my previous debate about this topic, my opponent had already voted in this debate, which shows he had read all argument fully and then voted for this debate.
For the argument my opponent has posted in first round, I have dealt it in great detail and rebutted them in my debate. I would ask my opponent to go read them and respond according to those argument and rebuttals.
To specify, the argument about adulthood related to puberty, I have discussed it in great detail.
about mental maturity i have rebutted the 25 year old argument as well.
all cognitive functions are mature up to 12 of age as specified by my opponent, then if a physical matureness and development can come early then mental come as well for precocious person.
We can see from the link by my opponent that mental matureness is very much related to environment and other factors which can speed up the process.
Like memory, and we know Aisha (RA) memorized whole Quran at very young age. and she was under the influence of prophet after 9 year of age and was raised under very well and good environment. And at her parents home she was given very special intention related to her development we can see it from my previous debate.
As these things effect very much to development.
I had prepared all the topic in more detail in my draft but i could not complete it within time, so I did not post them instead I posted my previous debate as everything is dealt in great detail about this topic and my opponent has voted for that debate. So even that link should be enough to deal for what my opponent has posted. But for next round i am going to go into more detail.
I aspect, my opponent will go in more detail about the claims he made and will support those claims as well.
I want my opponent to explain about what sexual attraction is.
In world there no where 25 age to be considered as adult and this is hypothetical far away from reality.
At 12 year of age all cognitive functions are fully developed at average but there is always exceptions.
Puberty phase to complete could take 18 month to 6 years. and there are some sources in my previous debate which considered 7 to be normal for puberty to start and if it takes 18 months then a person could pass puberty phase even before 9th of age.
So i want my opponent to deal with all the information i have done in my previous debate, for this round there is nothing new and which i have not dealt in my previous debate.
Thanks and looking forward for more better argument.
Round 2
Pro
#3
My opponent meant this link: https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533-islam-vs-anything2
Rebuttals:
In my entire argument, con never really rebuttals.
This is the link of my previous debate about this topic, my opponent had already voted in this debate, which shows he had read all argument fully and then voted for this debate.For the argument my opponent has posted in first round, I have dealt it in great detail and rebutted them in my debate. I would ask my opponent to go read them and respond according to those argument and rebuttals.To specify, the argument about adulthood related to puberty, I have discussed it in great detail.about mental maturity i have rebutted the 25 year old argument as well.all cognitive functions are mature up to 12 of age as specified by my opponent, then if a physical matureness and development can come early then mental come as well for precocious person.We can see from the link by my opponent that mental matureness is very much related to environment and other factors which can speed up the process.Like memory, and we know Aisha (RA) memorized whole Quran at very young age. and she was under the influence of prophet after 9 year of age and was raised under very well and good environment. And at her parents home she was given very special intention related to her development we can see it from my previous debate.As these things effect very much to development.I had prepared all the topic in more detail in my draft but i could not complete it within time, so I did not post them instead I posted my previous debate as everything is dealt in great detail about this topic and my opponent has voted for that debate. So even that link should be enough to deal for what my opponent has posted. But for next round i am going to go into more detail.I aspect, my opponent will go in more detail about the claims he made and will support those claims as well.I want my opponent to explain about what sexual attraction is.In world there no where 25 age to be considered as adult and this is hypothetical far away from reality.At 12 year of age all cognitive functions are fully developed at average but there is always exceptions.Puberty phase to complete could take 18 month to 6 years. and there are some sources in my previous debate which considered 7 to be normal for puberty to start and if it takes 18 months then a person could pass puberty phase even before 9th of age.So i want my opponent to deal with all the information i have done in my previous debate, for this round there is nothing new and which i have not dealt in my previous debate.
Foregone.. Nevermind..
I'm telling you right now, i'm not going back to your debate.
I did vote, yes, but i'm not going to pull out anything from your debate.
If you want to copy and paste from that debate, go ahead. But everything your saying right now is unsupported, and I doubt the judges will go to your other debate because this is a completely different debate.
I do believe I have cleared a majority of what you might say next round without even rebuttaling.
All that being said, I decline your request to pull up another completely different debate. Thank you.
As for your small rebuttal, I can see you nitpicked on the idea of "twenty five means your an adult".
However, I went on the overall spectrum of, mostly she doesn't qualify even with those acpects. While as you focus on one idea.
At least I have an idea of what you might say next round, let's break it down to only this:
Like memory, and we know Aisha (RA) memorized whole Quran at very young age. and she was under the influence of prophet after 9 year of age and was raised under very well and good environment. And at her parents home she was given very special intention related to her development we can see it from my previous debate.
Not sure where you got she memorized the whole Quran at a young age, I ask you quote so I can take a look.
Being under the influence of a prophet just proves more of a point that Aisha and the prophet had a power gap.
Besides that, being under an influence of a prophet doesn't mean much, people can be in a good environment it doesn't mean they are physically or mentally mature. As presented above. Also, I won't be talking about whatever the parent's might have done. That is unless you want to specifically mention it for me wanting to rebuttal it, i'm going to continue to disregard it.
I'm using, for the most part, science. Not trying to use the guessing game completely.
Thanks and looking forward for a more better argument.
Con
#4
Pedophilia
psycho sexual disorder
pedophilia, also spelled paedophilia, also called pedophilic disorder or pedophilia disorder, in conventional usage, a psycho sexual disorder, generally affecting adults, characterized by sexual interest in prepubescent children or attempts to engage in sexual acts with prepubescent children.
child
A young person, especially between infancy and puberty
A young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.
(Oxford)
Puberty
Puberty is the process of physical maturation where an adolescent reaches sexual maturity and becomes capable of reproduction. On average, puberty typically begins between 8 and 13 in females and 9and 14 in males(1)
Puberty usually starts some time between age 7 and 13 in girls and 9 and 15 in guys. Some people start puberty a bit earlier or later, though. Each person is a little different, so everyone starts and goes through puberty on his or her body's own schedule. This is one of the reasons why some of your friends might still look like kids, whereas others look more like adults. (2)
In girls:
- The first sign of puberty is usually breast development.
- Then hair grows in the pubic area and armpits.
- Menstruation (or a period) usually happens last. (3)
They also usually have a growth spurt (a rapid increase in height) that lasts for about 2 or 3 years (3)
Time Period of puberty
When you enter puberty, it might seem like your sleeves are always getting shorter and your pants always look like you're ready for a flood — that's because you're experiencing a major growth spurt. It lasts for about 2 to 3 years. When that growth spurt is at its peak, some people grow 4 or more inches in a year. (2)
Stages of Puberty
Professor James M. Tanner, a child development expert, was the first to identify the visible stages of puberty.
Puberty can be confusing at any age…even for parents! Although everyone has their own unique puberty timeline, boys and girls usually progress through their own sets of physical milestones, otherwise known as Tanner stages or sexual maturity ratings (SMRs)
In girls, puberty usually starts between ages 9 and 14. Once it begins, it lasts about 2 to 5years. But every child is different. And there's a wide range of what's normal. Your child may begin puberty a little earlier or later and finish sooner or later than their friends.
Menarche
Menarche is defined as the first menstrual period in a female adolescent. Menarche typically occurs between the ages of 10 and 16, with the average age of onset being12.4 years.
Factors effecting puberty
Precocious puberty
Precocious puberty is when a child's body begins changing into that of an adult (puberty) too soon. When puberty begins before age 8 in girls and before age 9 in boys, it is considered precocious puberty.
What is Precocious Puberty?
Precocious puberty is when the signs of puberty start:
- before age 7 or 8 in girls
- before age 9 in boys
Arguments:
From above scientific and research information, we can conclude:
- A pedophile is one who is sexually attracted toward children, and it's considered a disorder.
- A child is one who has not reached puberty.
- Normal puberty start min 7 years of age and maximum 15 years for girls.
- Puberty is a period of time not points of time, though we can take it a point of too as it's not mentioned in definition.
- Puberty period can last minimum 2 year to maximum 5 years.
- If starting point of puberty is take 7 which is minimum for normal puberty and also period to complete puberty taken as 2 years which is minimum time period for puberty to complete. Then a person could be adult at the age of 9.
- All above-mentioned points are taken from authentic scientific research.
- A person is adult if he/she completes all stages of puberty.
- Attaining adulthood is related to physical condition of each person, which only specific to him or her.
- Attaining adulthood is different for each person as far as time period and age is concern.
- A person could be an adult at the age of 9 or could be a child, as we have seen from scientific research.
- Precocious puberty is when it happens before 7 years of age.
Legal implications:
Just for the sake of Demographer related to my argument, because it states child marriage.
But Laws are different for each country, which I am trying to say here.
Legally, a person is a child even he or she has reached puberty, in different countries.
But in some country puberty determine the adulthood.
Now what I have to do is to relate all above information to Aisha’s case (RA).
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
My mother intended to make me gain weight to send me to the (house of) the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). But nothing which she desired benefited me till she gave me cucumber with fresh dates to eat. Then I gained as much weight (as she desired).
Reference
: Sunan Abi Dawud 3903
In-book reference
: Book 29, Hadith 49
English translation
: Book 28, Hadith 3894
Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ)combined cucumbers with ripe dates saying: “the heat of the latter is reduced by the coolness of the former.”
(Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawoodand Ibn Majah)
- Both are alkaline in nature, theoretically good for health.
- Above hadith shows that Aisha (RA) was given very special diet to grow faster or physically mature. And this food was suggested by Prophet Muhammad saw himself.
- We can see from two images that they are good in nutrition for growing kids.
Who is Adult or Mature according to Islam
وَابۡتَلُواالۡيَتٰمٰىحَتّٰىۤ اِذَا بَلَغُواالنِّكَاحَ ۚفَاِنۡ اٰنَسۡتُمۡمِّنۡهُمۡ رُشۡدًافَادۡفَعُوۡۤااِلَيۡهِمۡ اَمۡوَالَهُمۡۚوَلَاتَاۡكُلُوۡهَاۤ اِسۡرَافًاوَّبِدَارًااَنۡ يَّكۡبَرُوۡا ؕ وَمَنۡكَانَغَنِيًّا فَلۡيَسۡتَعۡفِفۡ ۚوَمَنۡكَانَ فَقِيۡرًا فَلۡيَاۡكُلۡبِالۡمَعۡرُوۡفِؕ فَاِذَا دَفَعۡتُمۡاِلَيۡهِمۡاَمۡوَالَهُمۡ فَاَشۡهِدُوۡاعَلَيۡهِمۡؕ وَكَفٰى بِاللّٰهِحَسِيۡبًا
(4:6) Test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage, 9 and then if you find them mature of mind hand over to them their property, 10 and do not eat it up by either spending extravagantly or in haste, fearing that they would grow up (and claim it). If the guardian of the orphan is rich, let him abstain entirely (from his ward's property); and if he is poor, let him partake of it in a fair measure. 11 When you hand over their property to them, let there be witnesses on their behalf. Allah is sufficient to take account (of your deeds).
Sahih International
And when the children among you reach puberty, let them ask permission [at all times] as those before them have done. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.
The pen has been lifted from three: a sleeper till he awakes, a boy till he reaches puberty, and a lunatic till he comes to reason.
Messenger of Allah (ﷺ):There is no orphan hood after puberty
- In Islam marriageable age is puberty. Saying Aisha (RA) was prepubescent is not true.
- Not only physical age is considered but also mental age as well as mentioned in Quran 4:6.
- In Islam marrying a child is not allowed. Islam is only religion which put minimum age for marriage not any other religion has done it. Which is 9.
- One can say Aisha (RA) married at the age of 6. Then answer is, Nikah before puberty is promise or proposal or engagement. But marriage can not be consumed. A girl or boy can reject it when he or she reach puberty. If he or she do he is considered as Unmarried.
- What is required for a girl to marry? Minimum age is 9 plus puberty, mental and physical Matureness as well.
- When a person is reached puberty he or she can have all rights, even for their property.
Time of proposal
When Khadijah (RA) died in year 10 at the start of the Islamic message, Khawlah was the first to realize that some steps must be quickly taken to try to fill the gap left by Khadijah’s departure. She realized how sad the Prophet was for the loss of his wife who supported him and ensured his comfort throughout 25 years of marriage. Khawlah came to the Prophet and suggested that he should marry again.
What is interesting in this is that she also had in mind whom to suggest that the Prophet could marry. When he asked her to name someone, she asked whether he preferred an older woman or virgin. Asked to name both, she said: “The virgin is Ayesha, the daughter of your closest companion, and the older is Sawdah who is a good believer.” The Prophet told her to go and propose to both on his behalf.
She went to both and told them that God is giving them a great honor. Both agreed and the Prophet married Sawdah when he was still in Makkah, but married Ayesha three years later, after he had settled in Madinah. Khawlah bint Hakeem (RA) suggested the marriage proposal to Abu Bakr (RA), who happily conceded and so did the Prophet (PBUH)
Another marriage proposal
When Abu Bakr received an affirmative answer from the Prophet, he went over to Mut'am ibn' Addey because he offered to marry his son to lady 'Aisha and she was about to betrothed to him. Abu Bakr (RA) was a man of his promise so he went over to Mut'am house asking him if he still wanted to marry off his son to 'Aisha. So the wife of Mut'am said " O Abu Bakr you might want to lead our son to your religion if he got married to your daughter". So Abu Bakr looked at Mut'am and asked him "Do you concur with what she says?" and Mut'am affirmed her opinion. Abu Bakr went out of Mut'am's house feeling comfortable about not breaking his promise and at ease that his daughter is free from any commitments of engagement to Mut'am's son.
Predicting the Exact age of Aisha (RA) with historical evidences.
Muhammad’s (SAW) wife Khadijah(RA) and uncle Abu Talib both died in 619 CE (1)
In 622 CE, Muhammad (SAW) and his followers migrated to Yathrib in the Hijra to escape persecution, renaming the city Medina in honor of the prophet. (1)
On March 13, 624, Muhammad(SAW) led Muslims to victory in the Battle of Badr, a major turning point in the spread of Islam. (2)
The Battle of Uhud ended on March 23,625 AD. (3)
Most of the Biographies of Prophet Muhammad saw says, marriage between Muhammad (SAW) was consummated at 1 or 2 hijri means 1 or two years after the migration of Prophet Muhammad (saw) to Madina. Both battles took place near the time when prophet Muhammad (SAW) consummated his marriage with Aisha (RA). And Aisha (RA) took part in both battle of badr (claimed to be participated) and Uhud (confirmed) as Medic.
I will not come up with argument that less then 15 year old was not allowed to take part in war at that time. But I will say, that an adult person was only allowed to take part in war at that time. A physically and mentally mature person.
In the case of Medic a person should be more maturer then even a fighter. Its just like that a surgeon need to be more daring to cut and open or even stitch and clean the wounds or body parts.
Severed limbs, open wounds with swords and also wounds from arrows during war and the brutal scenes of war is very dramatic events for an immature girl or prepubescent girl.
This is very clear fact that she was physically and mentally mature around her 9 year of age, which further shows that she might be case of precocious puberty.
On the day (of the battle) of Uhad when (some) people retreated and left the Prophet, I saw Aisha bint Abu Bakr and Um Sulaim, with their robes tucked up so that the bangles around their ankles were visible hurrying with their water skins (in another narration it is said, "carrying the water skins on their backs"). Then they would pour the water in the mouths of the people, and return to fill the water skins again and came back again to pour water in the mouths of the people.
There are claims that she took part in battle of badr as well.
Reference
In-book reference
: Book 56, Hadith 95
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 131
(1) https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldcivilization/chapter/flight-from-mecca-to-medina/
Consummation of marriage
Aisha tells the story. Following a description of her first journey to Medina, she says:
We stayed for some days in the house of Abu Bakr (RA). Then Abu Bakr (RA) said, "Messenger of Allah, what prevents you from consummating your marriage with my daughter?" The Messenger of Allah said, "The dower." So Abu Bakr as-Siddiq gave him [500 silver coins] and the Messenger of Allah sent them to us. The Messenger of Allah consummated the marriage with me in this house which I am now in. The Messenger of Allah died in it. [IbnSaad 8:45.]
Why abu bakr (RA) asked Muhammad (SAW) about marriage? Because he knew that she has reached puberty yet Muhammad saw was not consuming the marriage because he (SAW) could not know the condition of Aisha (RA). Only her mother could know, who can tell her husband about the condition of her daughter then he can ask Prohet (SAW).
Conclusion
Aisha’s (RA) father himself suggest about the consummation of marriage not Prophet Muhammad saw.
From the question from Abu bakr (RA),it shows there is no other reason to hold the marriage anymore. Both being adult and wise knew that, she has reached puberty and now the marriage can be consumed. That is why Abu Bakr (RA) asked Prophet Muhammad(SAW) what is reason to not consume marriage while Aisha (RA) being adult. It could be problem that maybe Aisha (RA) herself did not know her age as at that time people were not good at tracking their age or keeping record of it.
Even though the age was correct we have seen from above information that normally puberty can start at 7 and last min 2 year max 5 years. So whomever gets it at 7 can be fully grown at 9. In the case of precocious puberty the age could be even below 7 e.g., 6 or 5 and phase of puberty could last till 7 to 8 even.
In wars women roles during those times:
This was task of women in wars during that time.
According to what Anas b.Malik narrates, Umm Sulaym once went to the Prophet and told him that she wanted to join the war, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) told her that jihad was not obligatory for women. Thereupon, Umm Sulaym said that she could treat the wounded, make medicine for eye pain, and carry water to mujahids, the Prophet said, “Then, it would be good for you to go to the war.” (Haythami,4/324)
It is reported that Umm Salit carried water in leather bottles in the battle of Uhud and sewed the sheaths of the swords. (Bukhari, Jihad, 66)
Lady Nasiba was one of the women who participated in the Battle of Uhud with the same purpose. (IbnSad. 8/412-413)
Aisha (RA) herself said
At-Tirmidhi said: ‘Aa’ishah said: When a girl reaches the age of nine years, she is a woman.
Sunan at-Tirmidhi (2/409)
Narated By'Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became All-right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Volume 005, Book 058,Hadith Number234 Buhkari
فَلَمْيَرُعْنِيإِلاَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلىالله عليهوسلم ضُحًى، فَأَسْلَمَتْنِيإِلَيْهِ،وَأَنَا يَوْمَئِذٍ بِنْتُ تِسْعِسِنِينَ.
derogatory•informal
noun: bint; plural noun: bints
- a girl or woman.
Origin
mid 19th century: from Arabic, literally ‘daughter, girl’.
Translate bint to
Use over time for: bint
arabic word for child is tifl طفل
While here word bint is used, which means a girl not tifl which means child. She said she was girl not a child.
Conclusion
We can conclude from above information:
- A girl can be adult at 9 year old if she gets first sign of puberty at 7 and her puberty phase is 2 year.
- Puberty can start at min 7 and puberty phase can be min 2 year and max 4 years.
- A person become full adult at the end of puberty.
- Among women menstruation is called minarche and is final stage of puberty.
- In Islam menstruation is must to called an adult.
- Precocious puberty is one which can start before 7 years of age.
- Precocious person even take maximum years for puberty phase can reach to adulthood at the age of 9. For example a person is precocious and she start to have first sign at the age of 5 year old then even she takes 4 years maximum time for reaching adulthood than she will be adult at the age of 9. If a girl started first sign at the age of 6 and her puberty phase is 3 years then she will be adult at 9. Probably the case of Aisha (ra).
- If Aisha (RA) was precocious then she could even reach adulthood before the age of 9.
- but Islam is the only religion which gives minimum age for a girl to be adult at 9 and can have consume marriage. Its like age of consent in Islam. With all the requirement.
- Minimum requirement for a girl to be considered adult in Islam is minrache. Then she must be mentally and physically mature as well. Just like we have seen in the case of Aisha (RA).
- Aisha’s (RA) mother took her to prepare for marriage, and her father as well asked Prophet what makes him (SAW) to not consume his marriage.
- Khawlaw offered two women to prophet to be having the age of marriage. So she saw it too. And prophet (SAW) was not aware of which women are marriageable around him. And the dreams in which prophet (SAW) saw Aisha (RA) is from Allah which was probably after Khawlah suggest her for marriage. Or even it was before but khawlah was not aware of them.
- She was feed a special diet to reach adulthood or puberty. She was not prepubescent as its not allowed in islam to consume marriage with prepubescent girl.
- She participated in wars around the age of her consummation. Which shows she was physically and mentally mature to be able to withstand the brutal scenes of war.
- Uhud war took place 2 or 3 years after hijra, and Prophet (SAW) consummated the marriage with Aisha (RA) 2 years after hijra, almost same or 1 year before war. So it shows that Aisha (RA) was mature and adult.
- Her father saw her adult.
- Her mother saw her adult.
- Khawlah saw her adult.
- She herself call her adult.
- Scenarios shows she was adult.
- Science says she can and some women can be adult at 9.
- I was the case of precocious puberty as well. And one of my class fellow at 5th was adult and was extreme case of precocious puberty. I saw her first time in 5th grade and fellow with me who studied with her before me said, she was mature even before. So in my personal experience I have seen cases of precocious puberty. Or girls at young age being adult. Physically and mentally mature. she was topper of my class and even i was strong guy still beated me in race.
- My personal experience shows as well. I become adult physically before two of my older brothers.
So this is conclusion of my 1st argument. I have given scientific facts, historical facts. And also prospect of Islamic law as well.
I am waiting my opponent respond. And my disclaimer is puberty at 9 whether its normal or precocious is rare case. And it happens very less in society. And Islam has given permission for that individual to take all privileges which an adult can have, because he or she is adult medically and Islamically. While in most of western countries there adulthood has been derived or concluded by age which could be 16 to 21. Western laws do not look at physical condition of individual and they put all people in minor category below 18 and majority after 18.
But medically and scientifically age could be very diverse. So a person achieve adulthood is very subjective to each person. And considering that specific person adult before 18 is not wrong.
So I would say I am not imposing it to any country or society or person. I just presented this case for the sake of this debate.
About memorization of Quran (link below)
Aisha (R.A.) was one of three wives of the Prophet (S.A.W.) who was 'Hafiza' of Quran (memorizer of Quran). The other two 'Hafiza' are Hafsa bint Umar (R.A.)
Aisha's intelligence (link below)
Az-Aubairi said: "If we compared Aisha's knowledge to all women, Aisha would surpass them.”
Hisham lbn Urwa (a prominent narrator of hadith) said:
‘I have never seen anyone who could have knowledge of an ayah (Quranic verse), an obligatory act, a Sunnah act, poetry, history, lineage, judgement, or medicine better than Aisha (R.A.). I once asked her, "What about medicine? How did you learn it, aunt?"She (R.A.) answered, “When I was sick, the Prophet (S.A.W.) prescribe (treatment) for me as did he when the people became ill. I also heard the people prescribing treatment to each other. Thereby I memorized such prescriptions.”
I will deal with my opponents arguments in next round in more depth but for now it seems the case had been clearly made that Aisha (RA) was adult as all of the related people who were involved in marriage considered her age suitable for marriage.
My argument related to precocious puberty has never been rebutted in last round by opponent, and some other arguments as well.
About having good environment does not mean she got mature but my argument was that having good environment gives suitable environment to develop quickly and perfectly especially mental growth. Taking arguments in negative ways would let me explain more and more, which somehow shows my opponent cannot understand what i wanted to say.
It would be hard for me to convey my argument to my opponent if he is going to not understand basics of arguments. about good environment argument its derived from the same source which my opponent posted. its mentioned there that, when good environment is provided to younger people they grow rapidly and steadily while if environment is bad then there delayed mental and physical growth. Very easy and basic concept which everyone knows and needs common sense to understand.
my opponent said he is using science for knowing who can be adult. I have done that already as well.
I ask my opponent to go in links to understand what science says.
I myself has experience precocious puberty and i was adult at 10 of age and seen a girl too.
Thanks
Islam is best.
Be a Muslim and show Muslims are good people.
Round 3
Con
#6
Yes mutual tie is agreed, as only one voter is left who has has already voted in my favor of my case. So it would be disadvantage for you.
But I want to add more to the debate for readers to know the truth.
I thank my opponent for providing a resource link where I found all hadith related to this case which I could not find before though I know it from my previous Islamic knowledge.
Those hadith are given below:
All the references are from one resource link which is given at the end of argument or round.
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ),and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Abu Dawud said: That is to say: I menstruated,and I was brought in a house, and there were some women of the Ansari in it. They said: With good luck and blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other.
Grade:
Sahih (Al-Albani)
Reference
: Sunan Abi Dawud 4933
In-book reference
: Book 43, Hadith 161
English translation
: Book 42, Hadith 4915
Argument no1
In this hadith we can see she menstruated means she reached menarche the final stage of puberty.
This was the reference which I was looking for so long I knew it already because of my Islamic knowledge but I could not find reference but here we go.
In Islam passing puberty or 15 year of age is required for a girl to be eligible to marry.
Both physical and mental condition of a girl must be mature to consume the marriage.
I will discuss this In full detail later.
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.
Argument no2:
In above hadith we can clearly see that Aisha (RA) herself said nothing frightened me. Which proves she was not under pressure. The false accusation of she was under the pressure or influence of someone is proven to be wrong.
Reference
: Sahih Muslim 1422a
In-book reference
: Book 16, Hadith 81
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Book 8, Hadith 3309
(deprecated numbering scheme)
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet (ﷺ)departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married `Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Reference
: Sahih al-Bukhari 3896
In-book reference
: Book 63, Hadith 121
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 236
(deprecated numbering scheme)
It was narrated that‘Aishah said:
“My mother was trying to fatten me up when she wanted to send me to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)(when she got married), but nothing worked until I ate cucumbers with dates; then I grew plump like the best kind of plump.”
Argument no3:
This hadith above clearly proves that, Aisha (RA) called herself a best kind of plump.Which shows her sexual and physical maturity. From above hadith even a blind person can understand what she meant by that.
She considered herself to be that much physical and sexual mature that, she called herself to be in best condition and best kind. There is not even single more words to prove that fact after that.
And I shall thank to my opponent for providing that link to me where I found everything related to this topic in one place. :)
Grade:
Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference
: Sunan Ibn Majah 3324
In-book reference
: Book 29, Hadith 74
English translation
: Vol. 4, Book 29, Hadith 3324
Narrated `Aisha:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth,and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said(to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth,and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said(to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "
Reference
: Sahih al-Bukhari 7012
In-book reference
: Book 91, Hadith 30
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Vol. 9, Book 87, Hadith 140
(deprecated numbering scheme)
Argument no4:
In above hadith we can see that prophet (SAW) saw a dream which in which Aisha (RA) was shown to him (SAW) and Prophet (SAW) said if it would be from Allah-it will happen. That shows he did not have any personal interest in marriage. In fact it was divine decree. Allah choose Aisha (RA) for Prophet (SAW). And when khawlah brought the marriage proposal, it showed that it was indeed from Allah.
From the arguments from last round and above hadith, it clearly shows that Aisha (RA)was not a child in fact she was sexually mature and she herself said that she was best kind of plump then the marriage was consumed. That is why her father asked Prophet (SAW) what was stopping him to not consume marriage because Aisha (RA) was completely grown and mature.
About mental maturity I have already given references that she memorized whole Quran and also she was consider among the best scholar of that time.
Her mental physical and sexual maturity attained at the age of her consummation of marriage has been proven in my previous arguments. About 6 year of age to be getting married in Islamic system is different and having sexual attraction was never shown by my opponent at that age. And I have proven there was none.
In fact before consummation of marriage it cant be proven and even after.
Having sex and having sexual attraction is different thing.
My opponent has and could not prove any sexual attraction before consummation of marriage even after that Love is different thing then having sexual attraction. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) loved her very much while there is no mention of sexual attraction in any narration.
My opponent cannot prove sexual attraction in this case.
My opponent totally ignored argument of precocious puberty which now is proven to be casein this scenario. Because Aisha (RA) attained menarche at the age of9.
Who is adult in Islam:
below link shows who is adult in Islam and the word used for it is Balig.
Round 4
Con
#8
Con's Case
- A pedophile is someone who is interested in children.
- Hebephile is one who is only interested in children.
- Child grooming is when a person takes advantage of a child and his family.
- A child is one who has not reached the age of puberty.
- Puberty is when a child started having signs of getting sexually and physically mature even mentally as well.
- Puberty is not a point of time but a period of time.
- Puberty can start as less as 7 years old for girls and 8 for boys and would be considered as normal.
- Puberty which starts before 7 is called precocious puberty.
- Puberty is a period of time, so this period could be between 2 to 5 years, which means the onset of puberty for a person the time period he or she can take to become an adult could take 2 to 5 years.
- If puberty starts at 7, the minimum normal age for a girl and it takes a minimum time period of 2 years, then she could become an adult at 9 years old.
- In the case of precocious puberty, even a person can be an adult before 7 or 8 years old.
- Precocious puberty is also a normal course of action for some children. But sometimes this could be cause of some disease.
- As we can know from above scientific research backed by many publishers of scientific and medical research that a person could be an adult at 9 years old or even earlier.
- The extreme example of precocious puberty was Lina Medina who started having menstruation at little as 8 months old and was not a very old case but in the 1930s. She gave birth to a baby boy at the age of 6 and got pregnant at the age of 5 when she was raped, which was a very tragic accident. I feel very sorry about it.
- We have seen a lot of girls getting pregnant at the age of as low as 7 to 18 and Lina Medina was the rarest case to be at 6 in medical history.
- This information above suggests that an adult at 9 is not extraordinary is rarer than other cases mentioned above.
- We have seen that Aisha (RA) was case or precocious puberty that is why Khalaw (A marriage bureau at that time) presented Aisha (RA) to be having the age of marriage to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
- Which proves that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) never approached toward Aisha (RA) for marriage but she was presented to him (SAW).
- Aisha (RA) was engaged to another guy before Muhammad (SAW) which also proves she was at the age of marriage, that person was not muslim and they themselves dissolved the marriage or engagement.
- Aisha was not physically strong to carry marital responsibility at 6 and her mother was concerned about it, so she took good care of her and provided her suitable diet, kind of look like she was very much regulated about diet and was given very healthy and we already have seen in debate that date is perfect diet and very nutritious diet cucumber with the benefits of providing good amount of anti oxidant to give good health benefits. Which clicked for Aisha (RA) and she became healthy.
- When her mother saw that Aisha is physically mature and mentally as well. She talked with her husband and then he went to the Prophet (SAW) that now the marriage can be consummated.
- It is an obvious picture of how marriage was done.
- Aisha, at the same time, took part in war as medic, while Prophet (SAW) sent back a boy who was 14 years old from war but when he tried to take part in the next war when he was 15 he was taken.
- It proves that maturity was taken under consideration when recruiting soldiers and medic.
- Moreover, A mere child cannot take part as a medic in war because the trauma could be unbearable.
- Neither her parents nor Prophet (SAW) would allow a child to be taken in war as medic, especially when she is married to Prophet saw.
- During war, the Prophet’s (SAW) own daughter attended the wounds of the Prophet (SAW). It proves she was not living with the Prophet, but the marriage was consummated after this war.
- After the marriage there is no trauma or mental issue has been recorded by any historian at all. In fact, marriage was successful and they both loved each other very much.
- There was no physical harm or mental harm recorded at all. While non Muslims from all religions were living around Muslims and could have highlighted this issue.
- Prophet Muhammad (SAW) head was in the laps of Aisha (RA) in her house when he (SAW) died and she was tearing and never married again and never complaint about marriage in her whole life but loved and was proud of it.
- He lived a life of scholar and honorable lady, on whom one order Muslim went to war with the present Khalifa (RA) and beloved son-in-Law of the prophet (SAW). Which shows she was never powerless but she was very powerful during the life of the prophet saw and ever after him.
- So she could have told all the abuses to all the people at large in her later life. Which she did not, proves she had no regret.
- She was proud of being the virgin wife of prophet. Once she asked Prophet (SAW), which tree is better in your eyes from whom a lot of camels have eaten or the tree which has been fresh and no camel has eaten from it. (she was referring her virginity over all other wives of the prophet saw) whom were divorced or widowed. And Prophet (SAW) replied obviously the fresh one. Even though at another place Prophet (SAW) told Aisha (RA) that among best of my wives were his first wife Khadija (RA). But she died when the Prophet married to Aisha (RA). So that is why the prophet loved Aisha the most among all his living wives.
- We have seen how great behavior prophet (SAW) and with Aisha (RA).
- The normality of their life has been mentioned in one of the hadith when one asked Aisha (RA) herself how is prophet with you. She replied like anyone can live in marital life and she mentioned about chores in which prophet was helping.
- Aisha (ra) herself called mature and she got menarche as well. She consider her physical and sexual as well as mental maturity at the best level and at peak when she married prophet saw. We have seen it in previous round. So its proven that she was adult woman not even a girl.
- I end my case here, with the prayer, May Allah guide everyone to the light of Islam and take away the arrogance in the heart which makes them blind and deaf amen.
- Islam is best
- Be a Muslim and show Muslims are good people.
Round 5
Pro
#9
I had been gone for a few weeks, months, who knows?
Upon review of these arguments or should I say comments, it was completely twisted and disappointing.
Regarding discussion:
Con: "as only one voter is left who has has already voted in my favor of my case. So it would be disadvantage for you"
Unfortunately for pro, they don't seem to understand the bases of voting. Someone voting for you in favor of a debate done in the past, does not mean they will automatically vote you again.
I have two reasons:
- Topics between debates were completely different.
His last debate was "Marriage Between Prophet (SAW) and Aisha (RA) was normal", while this debate deals with: "Prophet (SAW) from Islamic Religion was a Pedophile."
The marriage could have been normal in the past and present but with this topic, however this topic deals with completely just: is prophet (saw) a pedophile?"
Ones opinions might change based on the topic name.
- Votes are (should be) based on who the voter felt overweighed
I believe many users, whether they believe it or not have some bias.
But in terms of a judge, your main priority should be who overwieghs in arguments. Knowing Best.Korea, it's possible you would've won, yes. But you shouldn't gloat upon the fact of it.
My problem with this is you made it out to seem I agreed to a mutal tie because I was at a disadvantage and couldn't handle it.
That's not the case. I didn't agree to the mutal tie because of disadvantage of losing, but rather the disadvantage of time.
And I'd hate for you to make it out as I cowered away from a debate.
From the Quran: "And do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exulting overmuch; surely Allah does not love any self-conceited boaster” (Quran 31:18)"
As for last round / comments:
Checking back at comments, I did not recieve it.
Concerning "academic" and "informative" purposes, my case was already laid out.
He was a pedophile, he was sexually attracted to a girl. Puberty does not complete itself at the ages of a teenager that early. Whsn you have sex with a child that is nine years old, you are a pedophile.
By legal definition, and any other defintion, she is a child. Mental, physical, anyway you want to take it.
It does not matter the age of consent, if it was allowed in the past, he was a pedophile.
Sex with a child can be allowed, but you are still a pedophile, you are sexually attracted to children.
In merriam webster, you use this definition:
A young person, especially between infancy and puberty
"Especially" in this case means: " A young person, and would be considered a child EVEN MORE SO between infancy and puberty."
Nowhere does this say you aren't a child if your not between those frames.
Taking his topic into consideration:
Precocious puberty
I hate this topic, because con always uses this to twist and play the "what if game" with me.
Hears the facts, nowhere in the Islamic Qur'an does it say she had precocious puberty, nowhere do we have proof.
I can however make it clear as day that the Qur'an specifically says aisha was nine years old when she was consummed.
Take away your thoughts about her body for a second. Think about her maturity.
But I want to leave it as "aisha was consumed at six years old", thatis supported. Her having precocious puberty is not supported and is used in your own ways to manipulate and justify your reasoning. Nobody should believe something that cannot be supported.
Thinking about Sexual Attraction:
There are countless times we have seen prophet saw have an attraction towards aisha, how she looks, his desires, focuses, etc.
Giving nicknames such as "Humayra (“Little Red One".
But without a doubt, you get married to someone because, partly, of your sexual attraction to them.
Prophet saw got married to Aisha because of his sexual attraction and desires of Aisha before she was consummed.
Prophet saw was a pedophile even before consumming Aisha.
---
Straight from the Qur'an: "There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256)
Just remember that.
Con
#10
After reading last argument I would say, my opponent just like in my previous debate's vote did not read my arguments. It’s very disappointing to see, you not only cherry pick but also do not read even full round otherwise why respond ignorantly. Probably he has short term memory loss or some other problem. How could a person forget what he just read? Same was in the RFD of last debate. How could a person ignore solid arguments or evidence and propose personal opinion over scientific and historical facts? Let’s go and check about his arguments while it look like he is doing only one sided and totally ignoring my arguments. And I shall prove that later in the rebuttal of his arguments.
OPPONENT
Upon review of these arguments or should I say comments, it was completely twisted and disappointing.
REBUTTAL
Probably my opponent checked only my comments and formulated this argument because it can completely be seen that, he has ignored my argument where he agreed about mutual tie.
OPPONENT
Unfortunately for pro, they don't seem to understand the bases of voting. Someone voting for you in favour of a debate done in the past, does not mean they will automatically vote you again.
REBUTTAL
Bases are same. There I tried to prove a person could be adult at the age of 9 and here again same stance even with more better and evidence based arguments. While what you did is just brought same arguments again while trying to constrain or restrict me with set framework and wanted to debate within it. Why is saying that? Here it is why.“ Any other definitions should be stated in the beginning of round one (unless introduce later on), other than that, any other words should be used in there primary context” Why would a person bound someone in this fashion?
OPPONENET
Ones opinions might change based on the topic name.
REBUTTAL
Not because of topic name but solid arguments.
OPPONENT
Votes are (should be) based on who the voter felt overweighed I believe many users, whether they believe it or not have some bias.
REBUTTAL
Yes, but for bias, I think this is what my opponent felt when voting for my last debate.
OPPONENT
But in terms of a judge, your main priority should be who overweighs in arguments. Knowing Best.Korea, it's possible you would've won, yes. But you shouldn't gloat upon the fact of debate.
REBUTTAL
Why I said that best Korea has voted for my case, because the case is same. How many times I complaint that your arguments are identical to what lancelot posted in my last debate and I have responded with same stance but with even more better arguments here. So debate is almost same in my opinion. It’s never about I know best Korea. Tbh he did vote for me in last debate not because he was known to me. In fact I become friend with him after that debate. Not coz he votes in my favour but only because he is unbiased person. Also I asked for mutual tie because the debate was not going as planned because 3 out of 4 judges left. And 1 left had voted in favour for identical debate. So for me saying that was justified. Probably not for you.
OPPONENT
He was a paedophile, he was sexually attracted to a girl. Puberty does not complete itself at the ages of a teenager that early. When you have sex with a child that is nine years old, you are a paedophile.
REBUTTAL
Being sentimental is not good in debates. You got to rebut my argument which are proven scientifically and historically and are facts as well then you can say that. And our debate is not for general public but for specific case. So dealing it for general public and even for anyother time in history is childish and out of context. And something said straight away does not make it fact unless you prove it. It only shows you overlooked all my arguments. Because later in debate you kept saying I did not prove or presented the evidence but in this debate I added additional data for evidence where its clearly shown that Aisha(RA) got minarchy and was physically mature and sexually mature and for mental matureness I have talked as well. Rest I will talk in this round.
OPPONENT
By legal definition, and any other definition,she is a child. Mental, physical, anyway you want to take it.
REBUTTAL
Most of the definition says puberty is the age to be adult. It does not even state the start or end. But Aisha (RA)ended it with menstruation when she was 9. In this debate that was my trump card because I couldn’t find references but one of your link provided me with that information. It’s stated in one of previous round. She called herself a plumb, like a best kind of plump, What else can prove that she was physically, mentally and sexually mature? Also, legally speaking in Islamic law she was adult met the criteria to have marriage.
OPPONENT
It does not matter the age of consent, if it was allowed in the past, he was a paedophile.
REBUTTAL
Because bella is saying that? And without evidence and ignoring the evidences presented against it? Until 20 century nobody said that. But now somepeople trying to damage the image of prophet (SAW). But for everything there is exception. Just like a girl who gave birth to a child at the age of 5 or 6 named Lina medina from Peru. You will say a child gave birth to a child? What kind of argument is that? A child gave birth to a child. You say by giving birth to a child does not mean you are adult or called adult. A mother is not called adult then who else? Some people grow earlier some late. Naturally a person is adult when he/she is capable like an adult. And best benchmark for adulthood is reproduction. Marriage is related to reproduction. A person's abilities which mature and are related to reproduction shall be consider best criteria for considering someone adult. Like in nature and for all species puberty is adulthood stage. Going agains tnature can only result in troubles. If someone is adult and you consider him or her child does not make him or her a child. Because naturally he or she has what an adult should.
OPPONENT
Sex with a child can be allowed, but you are still a paedophile, you are sexually attracted to children.
REBUTTAL
If your way of debating is this, then why someone even bother to debate. You said there was not evidence for Aisha ra to have started puberty at the age of 6 and then it ended at 9. While is this possible she has got menstruation at the age of nine instantly? Obviously it started at the age if 6 and ended at 9.
Evidence I will put here again.
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:TheMessenger of Allah (ﷺ)married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina,some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I wasswinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then broughtto the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ),and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. Shehalted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.AbuDawud said: That is to say: I menstruated, and I was brought in ahouse, and there were some women of the Ansari in it. They said: With good luckand blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other.
OPPONENT
Nowhere does this say you aren't a child if your not between those frames.
REBUTALL
Straw man fallacy.
OPPONENT
I hate this topic, because con always uses this to twist and play the "what if game" with me. Hears the facts, nowhere in the Islamic Qur'an does it say she had precocious puberty, nowhere do we have proof. I can however make it clear as day that the Qur'an specifically says Aisha was nine years old when she was consumed.
REBUTTAL
There is not what If game in my debate at all. It clearly shows my opponent have not read most of my arguments at all. There are proofs in previous rounds and I have re-quoted it again in this round she being physically mature and got menstruation at the age of 9 year old and getting final stage of puberty at 9 year of age proves she was precocious and her puberty most probably started at6 or 7.
My opponent claimed that I have claimed that Aisha (RA) was precocious and its mentioned in Quran. It also shows she did not read what have written in whole debate. Moreover she claimed that Quran claimed Aisha ra was 9 year old when marriage consumed. My opponent most probably was tired or something else to state that. Quran never talked about the age or condition of Aisha ra but everything being discussed about this topic is taken from hadith books. It’s not clear as day but it’s as dark as night.
This shows my opponent is not taking this debate seriously. And stating totally wrong and fallacious information in his argument. He cannot distinguish between quran and hadith so how can he even debate. And totally ignoring or overlooking my evidence. In last debate vote he did same ignoring my resources and his RFD had a lot of those blunders.
Opponent
Take away your thoughts about her body for a second. Think about her maturity.
Rebuttal
Some person named bella cannot tell about someon who lived 1400 years ago and her maturity as well unless provided with historical information. Which he never takes seriously. While Aisha ra being a woman and all her narations she narrated were in her older life when she can understand who can be considered adult bitterly. she can tell about that more clearly, as clear as day. She told us she grown as plump like a beat kind of plump. She got menstruation. She never felt threatened or frightened when her marriage was consumed. Her father and mother both considered her adult. Khawlah did too. Islam gave condition for woman to have few things to be considered mature.
For women·
Get pubic hairs.
Menstruation·
Breast development.·
Min age 15 if not above conditions fulfilled.·
Mentally mature to make sound decisions.
For men
Almost same except menstruation, instead getting wet dreams.
Islamic framework is very clear who is adult and who is not. Before 15 some condition must met to be adult but if no condition but reached 15 then he or she is considered as adult.
Opponent
But I want to leave it as "Aisha was consumed at six years old", that is supported. Her having precocious puberty is not supported and is used in your own ways to manipulate and justify your reasoning. Nobody should believe something that cannot be supported.
REBUTTAL
My opponent might be hallucinating when written above. If there would be another round I would have asked him, from where he got above information. Marriage was consumed at the age of 9 not 6.Her having menstruation at 9 proves that her puberty started at least 6 or 7.Someone need just common sense to get these calculation. But what calculation my opponent made does not make any sense at all.
OPPONENT
Thinking about Sexual Attraction:There are countless times we have seen prophet saw have an attraction towards Aisha, how she looks, his desires, focuses, etc.Giving nicknames such as "Humayra(“Little Red One". But without a doubt, you get married to someone because, partly, of your sexual attraction to them. Prophet saw got married to Aisha because of his sexual attraction and desires of Aisha before she was consumed.
REBUTTAL
You know what that is the reason why we love our Prophet (SAW) because we know about islam. In islam we are not allowed to see the sexual beauty of opposite gender. We are only allowed to see face one time only and decide on the basis of that to marry someone. And for Prophet SAW it was more so to follow piety modesty and manners. So such claims prophet had sexual attraction toward Aisha or even any other wife is blatant lie. It’s not even allowed for any Muslim to see the sexual beauty of his wife before marriagemore so before consumption. So whatever my opponent mentioned in firstround was long after marriage. It could be probably even she was 16 or evenmore. No one can guess at what age those events occur during the married lifeor Aisha RA and Prophet SAW. Although one thing is sure that every sexualencounter was done after the age of 9 not before. So stop claiming somethingwhich was impossible and never happened it only destroy your credibility andshows how desperate you are to prove your case and overconfident as well.
OPPONENT
Prophet saw was a paedophile even before consumingAisha.
Rebuttal
Because my opponent says so?Brain developmentUnderstanding the TeenBrain It doesn’t matter how smart teens are or how well they scored onthe SAT or ACT. Good judgment isn’t something they can excel in, at least notyet.The rational part of a teen’s brain isn’t fully developed andwon’t be until age 25 or so.In fact, recent research has found that adult and teenbrains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain’srational part. This is the part of the brain that responds to situations withgood judgment and an awareness of long-term consequences. Teens processinformation with the amygdala. This is the emotional part.In teens' brains, the connections between the emotional part ofthe brain and the decision-making center are still developing—and not always atthe same rate. That’s why when teens have overwhelming emotional input, they can’t explain later what they were thinking. They weren’t thinking as much as they were feeling.
Argument
- I always play up front.This was the argument posed by my opponent about brain maturity. While sexual and physical maturity of Aisha already proven. Even the brain maturity as well. But there is more can beadded into it.In above piece of information my opponent never linked theneed for rational part of brain to be mature for a specific decision making which relates to marriage or choosing life partner.One argument we can make straight away that is Aisha’sparents were the one who took decision for her marriage at the age of 6. Then later she had no objection when she was physically mature and she felt very comfortable with the marriage and proof for that is her later life in which shenever complaint about her marriage. Even at the age of 25 or later. It seems the decision was sound and perfect. That is normalcase in all early marriages in Islam in which male or female is precocious. In islam it’s not allowed for virgin to arrange her ownmarriage but their guardian do it. But a widow or divorced can arrange her ownmarriage without the consent of guardian. That is the whole reason to take careof all rational decision which can take place in an engagement. While a girlhas to choose a life partner with emotional part of brain “amygdala”. Marriageis all about emotion, those who consider marriage a financial transaction or some mean to gain something wont last long. Marriage which is based on lovewhich is 100% emotion last longer and in Islamic societies, eternal. That suffice the case that most probably rational part ofbrain does not count much in these kinds of matters that is why 13 to 18 isconsider age of consent or age for marriage in even modern world of this timenot the proposed age of 25 by my opponent.If someone likes someone’s face or beauty or character then most certainly rationality is not the mean to judge these characteristics.I want to mention one more point. Having sex is no problem throughoutthe world at younger age. But marriage is problem. In Islamic world parents ofcouple are counsellors and care taker. They even take care of financialconstraints and issues. So in Islamic country it society person getting marriedhas a lot of help from family. OParents are guarantor for many things. A personwithin marriage cannot exploit each other easily. So in Islamic society marriageat early age is solution for many problems. There is saying in Islamic worldmarriage is not between two person but two families. A solid argument about this statement is that, if a coupleis even divorced their children are relatives to both families with blood ties.And their grand parents, uncles and aunts remain their relatives forever. So I would say amygdala is enough for making decisionsrelated to marriage and love because they are totally 100% related to emotions.And we can easily see in world on most of time that younger people are freshand more smart because of their cognitive abilities and elder are because oftheir knowledge and experiences. Which cannot and should not consider abenchmark or standard for measuring adulthood. And just like in my previousdebate I explain this in detail that the rationality development is not fully mature even at 25 or one can say stopped because it goes even till 50s or evenmore. So again considering it a standard for measuring adulthood is not sound basis. Aisha (RA) was very smart, memorized whole Quran at younger age. Was distinguished scholar of Islam. Role model for all Muslim women.Symbol of honour, respect and dignity.Lived happily life with her husband which she neverregretted. A wonderful love story and a wonderful example.Now I want to give gist of whole debate in the form ofconclusion.Sexual attractionSexual attraction cannot be proven to exist between couple eventhey are married. Check the links below.·
- https://sexpositivepsychology.com.au/blog/2021/4/23/can-a-relationship-work-if-there-is-no-sexual-attraction·
- https://thriveworks.com/blog/can-i-be-in-love-with-someone-but-not-be-sexually-attracted-to-them-is-this-a-dealbreaker-for-a-romantic-relationship/
- There is a lot to talk about it but it seems I will run short of words for this round.
CONCLUSION
1. Prophet saw did not choose Aisha ra to make her his wife. But khawlah did propose her to prophet having age of marriage check in previous rounds for detail.
2. Aisha ra was engaged before prophet saw proving she was considered young and having age of marriage.
3. She having menstruation at the age of 9 means her puberty started at the age of 6 or 7 and ended at the age of consummation. By definition having puberty means no more child so my opponents whole argument fell apart.
4. Point number 3 is enough evidence to prove she was an adult at the age of 9. Which I lacked in my previous debate because I could not find any reference for menstruation which I posted in previous round in this debate.
5. Aisha's parents, Khawlah, Aisha and ex fiancé’s parents and society around her all considered her to be adult. She took part in wars during that time. Everything proves she was adult.
6. She calling herself plump and having perfect body proves she was adult.
7. Everything else I have talked in my previous debate and link is here.
Probably not much words left. I hope this debate will provide what was lacking in my previous debate. I have already made solid case in my previous debate. But this debate did not go as planned.So I asked opponent to let’s make it a tie and provide this debate as academic or informative source. And anyone who has doubt in previous debate could get more knowledge from it.
Islam is best.
So become a Muslim.
And show Muslims are good people.
After posting argument here I found out there is a lot of space remaining.
But I am going to skip as I am very tired for editing the deleted spaces in between words after posting argument.
Now I am going to publish my argument I do not care how many words got messed because of deletion of spaces.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
We don't have to accept a tie just because con gaslight pro into thinking they lost.
We choose to.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Given that I am the only voter left, I leave it as it is.
Tie was agreed upon.
You have probably said those same things 500 times by now. I have never seen anyone repeat the same for so many times and not get bored.
Best.Korea, Dudette,
Learn this very simple proposition, Jesus' true words within the scriptures DOES NOT ALLOW ME TO CALM DOWN in any way whatsoever, especially in Bible Slapping Silly the goat-herder tigerlord, understood?
“Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE AND EXHORT, with complete patience and teaching.” (2 Timothy 4:2)
You're excused.
.
Dude... calm down lol
Papertiger,
When you think it is okay for a 9 year old girl to marry a sweaty camel-humper Muslim man that is 3 to 4 times her age, then you NEVER answered the question whether you would allow your beloved daughter to marry at this age, as in your minds eye, seeing a huge camel stinking Muslim man crawling on top of your little 9 year old daughter in painfully SCREWING her little girl vagina, mouth, and ass to no end!!!!
Would you let YOUR DAUGHTER to become a SEX TOY for a stinking sweaty Muslim man as described above? YES OR NO you hypocrite goat herder if you say NO in relation to your argument in this debate!
.
Ok dude.
We don't have control over site coding, dude. But here's a fix I've been using: copy-paste your argument into a Google Doc before copy-pasting it into here. I've found that that doesn't encounter the same problem.
When you gonna fix the space deleting bug from this website? Its huge headache.
I am going to post my argument without editing in DA and post it with mistake because this is so much frustrating.
Debating? I'm not debating with you. You asked for informative reasoning, I gave it.
I did not play dirty. No matter what I said would it have changed that we agreed to a mutual tie.
I wrote that in this debate, because you seem to be gloating and surrounding the fact "yeah, give up this debate because you would've lost with only one voter".
You took it into terms of being a bias voter, and if I wouldn't have agreed, it's sad you'd need a specific voter in order to win.
Addressing being online - I didn't participate, I simply get emails regarding DebateArt and I check out my notifications every once and awhile.
It said I was forfeiting rounds, and I was quite sure I finished all my debates. I checked it out, then I happened to see your "arguments" and decided to comment on it.
That's it, I'm done. I don't care what is in your next "argument". I want to leave it here, and that's what you wanted as well.
So this is how you debate? Lol I am laughing. Becoming sentimental does not prove you are right. Also whatever you utter does bot make automatically correct. And lie is a big thing to do. You have been online during whole time and about my comment you have read it before you agreeing for mutual tie. I can feel you. Being desperate, you tried your hard to prove your case but all in vain. I still have one round. When I said about voter situation, you read it and then agreed for mutual tie. I do not know that time you were sleepy. And next time when you read again and found it ockward. But I cannot understand what is wrong with you. This was not some rap battle or anime debate
You have not rebutted even my 1 argument. And there are fallicius arguments from you with personal constrained framework within your brains capabilities. And setting your own rules and idea and confining me within it to frame me. But all in vain. And now in last round you tried to play dirty but all in vain coz I still have 1 last round. Cheers. Your personal opinion does not matter at all. I will rebut your last round normally it's against debates but you did it first. After first round you kept ignoring my arguments and doing something one sided. Really disappointing. You are not only bad voter but debater as well. Wasted my valuable time. Very bad kido
as all voter gone only 1 left so the result could be not in your favor. about voting we can decide later. like let be without voting. but for academic and informative purpose we should complete the debate in casual way and leave the debate without voting. what you say about it?
Paper tiger,
YOUR DUMBASS QUOTE THAT WILL ONLY FURTHER YOUR EMBARRASSMENT ABOUT ISLAM: "Thomas, keep activating my debates. The more active they are the more people will read them. Which is good, because more people will know the truth."
YES, in keeping with activating your sickening debate about you DEFENDING your illiterate Muhammed in being an outright PEDOPHILE in his time period because he married a little innocent girl Aisha WHEN SHE WAS ONLY SIX YEARS OLD, and then started SCREWING HER when she was NINE YEARS OLD, will tell the people the TRUTH in how deplorable the beginnings of your Satanic faith of Islam truly is! Thank you!
MUHAMMED LIKED FONDLING LITTLE GIRLS!!!
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: “While we were returning from a Ghazwa (Holy Battle) with the Prophet, I started driving my camel fast, as it was a lazy camel A rider came behind me and pricked my camel with a spear he had with him, and then my camel started running as fast as the best camel you may see. Behold! The rider was the Prophet himself. He said, 'What makes you in such a hurry?" I replied, I am newly married " He said, "Did you marry a virgin or a matron? I replied, "A matron." He said, "WHY DIDN'T YOU MARRY A YOUNG GIRL SO THAT YOU MAY PLAY WITH HER AND SHE WITH YOU? When we were about to enter (Medina), the Prophet said, "Wait so that you may enter (Medina) at night so that the lady of unkempt hair may comb her hair and the one whose husband has been absent may shave her pubic region.” (Sahih Bukhari 7:62:16)
Papertiger, you do not have the sense to feel embarrassed over your deplorable Islamic faith!
.
My bad, i've been more inactive on this website.
If you want.
Thomas, keep activating my debates. The more active they are the more people will read them. Which is good, because more people will know the truth.
Well, let's complete this debate. I will see for others later
.
Papertiger,
YOUR RUNAWAY WHINING QUOTE FROM NOT BEING ABLE TO DEFEND THE DEFENSELESS: “I really lost the interest to debate anymore on this website. after watching the condition of voting, it's really upsetting.”
Nobody with at least half a brain can defend the FACT that your desert sweaty imbecile Muhammed, that couldn’t even read or write the language of Arabic, was an outright PEDOPHILE in his day when he married Aisha when she was only SIX YEARS OLD! Then “allegedly” consummated the marriage when she was only 9 years old where he could then SCREW her little innocent child body!
You said many times that you were leaving this prestigious Religion forum, but yet you are still here making a fool of yourself in “trying” to defend a pervert PEDOPHILE named Muhammed!
As in your statement above, do all of us a favor and just LEAVE THIS TIME to save yourself any further embarrassment because in the last debate, YOU LOST, and in this debate, logic will say you will lose this one as well!
.
indeed david seems to be gone as well. troll debater and voter ruining the good vibe of this website. so it would be only you who would be voting for this debate. lets see what bella would say.
If you both agree to a tie, then my vote will be tie and debate will be tie. With other voters gone, its not a big deal to end the debate at this point. I would hate to be the only one deciding the winner, to be honest. I am not sure if David will come online. He might.
I really lost the interest to debate anymore on this website. after watching the condition of voting, its really upsetting. that is why i did not want to debate with you at first place.
is there any possibility to conclude this debate from both side?
I mean both agree to tie it out.
It's rushed.
But yes, I did include your link.
can u post my debate's link in next round which i intended to post.
Not sure why you decided to respond late, but alright.
It's whatever. I don't really want to drag this out.
I'll appreciate it if you do vote, if not, that's fine.
I know he did, that is why I said wasn't you, and said 'anyway'.
Sadly the content of debate rounds can not be edited.
You can ask your opponent to share your link in their argument, and/or provide it at the start of your next round. Most judges don’t have a problem with this type of typo correction.
ok all good.
i will check after 3 days, i could not find time and my hardware broke many times while preparing argument and also some other stuff i was busy with, otherwise it would have been very good argument, better next time.
I accidentally posted wrong link in my argument. If someone can edit it, it would be very nice thanks.
i will be off for 3 days to do physical preaching journey so i will check later what will be solution for it.
thanks
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533-islam-vs-anything2
this is link i indented to use in my argument but i posted 1.
All good. I'm going to ignore your link and everything mentioned with it anyways.
(Expect for small comments of course but it's not of importance).
^ Also, I don't think mod's can change your argument regardless of mistakes.
i accidentally posted wrong link its not 1 but 2
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533-islam-vs-anything2
Maybe his internet went out
i will try to wrap up it soon.
tigerlord requested you, actually. I just acted as the "messenger". I picked no judges, expect for DavidAZ as a change for Slaint.
My bad if it came off as a rude attitude or something like that, but it feels like its a bother to you (past two comments by you).
So, my response is, that's fine. And if it is, no problem, you don't have to vote. Or you could've declined at the start, no worries.
Wasn't you who requested me anyway, what a shitty attitude.
Feel free to not vote, and let all other three judges (or other judges) vote. That's fine.
This is going to take forever...
When people behave like that, i can do nothing but facepalm. keep in mind, you were desperate to do this debate. instead of correcting your mistake by voting in previous debate, you started another debate and just doing same shi8t what i have already dealt.
you need to focus before doing anything, otherwise its all bull shi8t wasting time of others. When you had to do this, why wanted to debate with me? I was wondering, what a new debate has to do for poor vote? what you were trying to do there?
your RFD was blunder and here i saw your argument is same copy paste from previous debate. I assume you were going to elaborate and explain what a adult is, also support your claim to give warrant.
any ways I got opportunity to explain more and go in more depth of this topic. I assume that, you gonna give more in up coming rounds.
I'm tired, it wasn't an exception to add anything new, this is a different debate. Being this is a different debate means i'm not factoring in another debate. Different debate, different responding.
What you feel answers all of what I said in depth and disregards it, sure. By all means, copy and paste for all I care.
Yes, it took thirteen days. You asked for two weeks, you received. I believe you think my life outside of this website is less important?
So thank you, for taking the time to respond and reminding me I do not give a shit if you're disappointed. Thanks!
what is new in this round? have i not done already whatever you have posted? I have to repeat full story again? Tbh i have to post my previous debate in resource and do not type anything that would be enough.
It shows you did not read my previous debate at all or with concentration.
I never leave any question for a honest person. Because I analyze everything critically and consider everything which a person can ask. In other words I take every thing head on without fear and as i believe Islam is truth so I always get answers.
any ways i will respond. after taking all 13 days still got this. I am very disappointed.
For me its not very hard to convince they follow polytheism or hybrid god.
Trying to explain pedophilia to Muslims, is like trying to explain polytheism to Christians.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/phoebe-teaching-joey
I already had that idea in mind. Last debate with Sir.Lancelot and tigerlord it was not discussed what an adult was, who is classified as an adult, etc. Which let a lot of open room with the question, Is Aisha an adult?
I plan to clarify it, hence my definition.
I would prefer if both sides make a clear case about what is an adult, and how they determine who is an adult.
Who is ready for 300,000 characters discussing what puberty means and if Muhammad PBUH was actually a hebephile rather than pedophile?
*buckles up*
I accepted as a judge. Thanks!
Throw your full fledge opening argument. When the judges decide.
Any other words should be used in their primary context.
I think it's not a good idea to do.
primary or secondary does not matter as far as there is context, then it's relevant.
Slainte no longer wanted to judge, so, I swapped his place.
If anything needs to be changed, let me know.