Instigator / Pro
0
1309
rating
269
debates
40.71%
won
Topic
#5159
You choose the topic
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
0
1476
rating
336
debates
40.77%
won
Description
Please no stupid requests such as "you must make at least 10 arguments".
Round 1
"The topic: Is believing in the spirit of God, the bible, angels, demons equate to believing in fairy tales; are all these elements equivalent?"
Fairy tales will be defined as stories that are contradictory or stories that have no evidence to support them.
Since we are talking about God of the Bible, angels from the Bible, demons from the Bible, I simply must prove that these claims from the Bible have no evidence to support them, that they are assumptions, or that they are contradictory.
"The Bible is an unreliable authority because it contains numerous contradictions. Logically, if two statements are contradictory, at least one of them is false. The biblical contradictions therefore prove that the book has many false statements and is not infallible.
Examples of Old Testament Contradictions
The contradictions start in the opening chapters of the Bible, where inconsistent creation stories are told. Genesis chapter 1 says the first man and woman were made at the same time, and after the animals. But Genesis chapter 2 gives a different order of creation: man, then the animals, and then woman.
Genesis chapter 1 lists six days of creation, whereas chapter 2 refers to the “day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.” Genesis 1:2-3 claims that God created light and divided it from darkness on the first day; but Genesis 1:14-19 tells us the sun, moon, and stars weren’t made until the fourth day.
Chapter 1 reports that the fruit trees were created before the man, while chapter 2 indicates they were made after him. Genesis 1:20 says the fowl were created out of the waters; Genesis 2:19 alleges they were formed from the ground.
Contradictions are also seen in the biblical story of a worldwide flood. According to Genesis 6:19-22, God ordered Noah to bring “of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort . . . into the ark.” Nevertheless, Genesis 7:2-3 relates that the Lord ordered Noah to take into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens, and only the unclean beasts by twos.
Genesis 8:4 reports that, as the waters of the flood receded, Noah’s ark rested on the mountains of Ararat in the seventh month. The very next verse, however, says the mountaintops could not be seen until the tenth month.
Genesis 8:13 describes the earth as being dry on the first day of the first month. But Genesis 8:14 informs us the earth was not dry until the twenty-seventh day of the second month.
The Old Testament contains an interesting contradiction in the story of the census taken by King David and the resulting punishment of the Israelites. God was so angered by the census that he sent a plague that killed 70,000 men. According to II Samuel 24:1, the Lord had caused David to take the census – which makes the punishment appear even more nonsensical. But an attempt was later made, at I Chronicles 21:1, to improve God’s image by claiming that Satan incited the census.
Further, the Old Testament is contradictory as to whether the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him. At Jeremiah 7:22, God denies he ever gave the Israelites commandments about animal sacrifices. In contrast, Exodus 29:38-42 and many other verses depict God as requiring the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices.
In the New Testament, there are contradictions between the genealogies of Jesus given in the first chapter of Matthew and the third chapter of Luke.
Both genealogies begin with Jesus’ father, who is identified as Joseph (which is curious, given that Mary was supposedly impregnated by the Holy Ghost). But Matthew says Joseph’s father was Jacob, while Luke claims he was Heli. Matthew lists 26 generations between Jesus and King David, whereas Luke records 41. Matthew runs Jesus’ line of descent through David’s son Solomon, while Luke has it going through David’s son Nathan.
The story of Jesus’ birth is also contradictory. Matthew 2:13-15 depicts Joseph and Mary as fleeing to Egypt with the baby Jesus immediately after the wise men from the east had brought gifts.
But Luke 2:22-40 claims that after the birth of Jesus, his parents remained in Bethlehem for the time of Mary’s purification (which was 40 days, under the Mosaic law). Afterwards, they brought Jesus to Jerusalem “to present him to the Lord,” and then returned to their home in Nazareth. Luke mentions no journey into Egypt or visit by wise men from the east.
Concerning the death of Judas, the disloyal disciple, Matthew 27:5 states he took the money he had received for betraying Jesus, threw it down in the temple, and “went and hanged himself.” To the contrary, Acts 1:18 claims Judas used the money to purchase a field and “falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”
In describing Jesus being led to his execution, John 19:17 recounts that he carried his own cross. But Mark 15:21-23 disagrees by saying a man called Simon carried the cross.
As for the crucifixion, Matthew 27:44 tells us Jesus was taunted by both criminals who were being crucified with him. But Luke 23:39-43 relates that only one of the criminals taunted Jesus, the other criminal rebuked the one who was doing the taunting, and Jesus told the criminal who was defending him, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Regarding the last words of Jesus while on the cross, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 quote Jesus as crying with a loud voice, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Luke 23:46 gives his final words as, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” John 19:30 alleges the last words were, “It is finished.”
There are even contradictions in the accounts of the resurrection – the supposed event that is the very foundation of the Christian religion. Mark 16:2 states that on the day of the resurrection, certain women arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun. But John 20:1 informs us they arrived when it was yet dark. Luke 24:2 describes the tomb as open when the women arrived, whereas Matthew 28:1-2 indicates it was closed. Mark 16:5 declares that the women saw a young man at the tomb, Luke 24:4 says they saw two men, Matthew 28:2 reports they saw an angel, and John 20:11-12 claims they saw two angels.
Also in the resurrection stories, there are contradictions as to the identity of the women who came to the tomb,[7] whether the men or angels the women saw were inside or outside the tomb,[8] whether the men or angels were standing or sitting,[9] and whether Mary Magdalene recognized the risen Jesus when he first appeared to her.[10]
As a final example of a New Testament contradiction, the conflicting accounts of Paul’s conversion can be cited. Acts 9:7 states that when Jesus called Paul to preach the gospel, the men who were with Paul heard a voice but saw no man. According to Acts 22:9, however, the men saw a light but didn’t hear the voice speaking to Paul.
The foregoing examples are just a few of the hundreds of contradictions contained in the Old and New Testaments. Each contradiction is an instance where at least one of the verses is wrong. Thus, hundreds of contradictions mean there are at least hundreds of incorrect statements in the Bible."
Bible says that people will be payed according to their deeds, then contradicts that by punishing infants who have no deeds.
"He damned the whole human race and cursed the entire creation because of the acts of two people (Genesis 3:16-23; Romans 5:18); he drowned pregnant women and innocent children and animals at the time of the Flood (Genesis 7:20-23); he tormented the Egyptians and their animals with hail and disease because pharaoh refused to let the Israelites leave Egypt (Exodus 9:8-11,25); and he killed Egyptian babies at the time of the Passover (Exodus 12:29-30).
After the Exodus he ordered the Israelites to exterminate the men, women, and children of seven nations and steal their land (Deuteronomy 7:1-2); he killed King David’s baby because of David’s adultery with Bathsheba (II Samuel 12:13-18); he required the torture and murder of his own son (e.g., Romans 3:24-25); and he promised to send non-Christians to eternal torture (e.g., Revelation 21:8).
Besides the unfairness and heartlessness contained in Christian teachings, the Bible has other violent tales that are opposed to civilized standards of morality. Among the most shocking Bible passages are those that portray God as ordering or approving the extermination of various people, including children and the elderly.
- At I Samuel 15:3, the prophet Samuel gives King Saul this commandment from the Lord: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”
- Ezekiel 9:4-7 has this harrowing account: “And the Lord said unto him, Go through . . . the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark. . . .”
- Hosea 13:16 describes a punishment from the Lord: “Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”
- Deuteronomy 32:23-25 says that after the Israelites incited God’s jealousy by worshiping other gods, he vowed: “I will spend mine arrows upon them. . . . The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.”
- In Numbers chapter 31: “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”"
"Fairy tales will be defined as stories that are contradictory or stories that have no evidence to support them."
Do you agree fairy tales are stories that have been proven to have been made up and fabricated out of the figment of a story writer's mind?
"Since we are talking about God of the Bible, angels from the Bible, demons from the Bible, I simply must prove that these claims from the Bible have no evidence to support them, that they are assumptions, or that they are contradictory."
You could of just sent a message back saying change the topic to proving biblical contradictions.
Clearly that's where this is going.
But just answer this question for now below and we'll take it from there .
Do you agree fairy tales are stories that have been proven to have been made up and fabricated out of the figment of a story writer's mind?
Round 2
Do you agree fairy tales are stories that have been proven to have been made up and fabricated out of the figment of a story writer's mind?
No.
You could of just sent a message back saying change the topic to proving biblical contradictions.Clearly that's where this is going.But just answer this question for now below and we'll take it from there .Do you agree fairy tales are stories that have been proven to have been made up and fabricated out of the figment of a story writer's mind?
If you want, you can use the definition from dictionary:
Fairy tale
"a story about magical and imaginary beings and lands"
Now, contradictions in the story obviously mean that the story is imaginary. Absurd things also mean that story is imaginary. Lack of evidence for claims also means that story is imaginary.
So my original definition is in full agreement with the definition from the dictionary.
Now, the definition that you are proposing, demands of me to prove that story is fabricated and not real.
I have already done that in round 1.
Contradictions are logically impossible to exist, so the story in the Bible (that has contradictions) couldnt have happened and therefore, is not real.
Further, there are many absurd things in the Bible, such as disproportional punishments.
Justice implies eye for eye, not "you burn alive eternally because you didnt believe in me".
The word justice has nothing to do with morality of the God of the Bible. He claims to be just, but he is not.
He punishes great majority of people with eternal great pain, when those people in most cases did no such thing to anyone.
Further, because there is lack of evidence for all the stories in the Bible, and no evidence to prove God of the Bible was found despite thousands of years of search for such evidence, it follows that we must treat the Bible as the collection of unproven assumptions. Since fairy tales themselves are nothing but unproven assumptions, this makes Bible a fairy tale.
The Problem of the Bible (How the bible is literally full of errors in nearly every way possible.):
I. Which Bible?
A. Over 450 English versions of the bible
B. All are translated using different methods and from entirely different manuscripts
C. Thousands of manuscripts disagreeing with each other wildly in what verses and even books they contain, and how those verses read.
D. Different translations teach entirely different things in places, some often leaving out entire chapters and verses or containing footnotes warning of possible error due to uncertainty about the reliability of the numerous manuscripts.
II. Availability - current estimate is that 2,251 languages, representing 193 million people, lack a Bible translation. Bible claims to be available to everyone.
III. Historical and Geographical errors in the Bible
A. River Gihon could not possibly flow from Mesopotamia and encompass Ethiopia (Gen 2:13)
B. The name Babel does not come from the Hebrew word 'balbal' or 'confuse' but from the babylonian 'babili' or 'gate of God' which is a translation of the original Sumerian name Ka-dimirra. (Gen 11:9)
C. Ur was not a Chaldean city until 1000 years after Abraham (Gen 11:28, 15:7)
D. Abraham pursued enemies to 'Dan' (Gen 14:14). That name was not used geographically until after the conquest (Judge 18:29)
E. Gen 36:31, telling of Jacob and Esau, lists kings of Edom "before there reigned any king over the children of Israel." This must have been written hundreds of years later, after Israel had kings.
F. Joseph tells Pharaoh he comes from the "land of the Hebrews" (Gen 40:15). There was no such land until after the conquest under Joshua.
G. The Egyptian princess names the baby she finds "Moses" because she "drew him out" of the water (Heb meshethi). Why would she make a pun in Hebrew (Ex 2:10)?
H. No Egyptian record exists mentioning Moses or his devastation of Egypt.
I. Moses refers to "Palestine" (Ex 15:14). No such name was in use then.
J. Law of Moses is the "statutes of God and his laws" (Ex 18:26), but it closely mirrors the Code of Hammurabi, which was penned 1800 BC, hundreds of years before Moses.
K. Priests are mentioned at Ex 19:22-24, but they are not provided for until Ex 28:1.
L. Moses mentions Rabbath, where Og's bedstead is located (Deut3:11). Moses could not have any knowledge of Rabbath,which was not captured by the Hebrews until David's time,500 years later (2 Sam 12:26).
M. Jericho and Ai (Josh 8) were both ancient ruins at the time of the conquest of Canaan, according to archaeologists. Jericho's walls were destroyed centuries before Joshua.
N. Kings are referred to at Deut 17:17-19, before Israel had kings.
O. The Wilderness is viewed as history at Num 15:32, showing that Numbers was written later.
P. The Sabbath law was unknown when the man gathered sticks at Num 15:32-34.
Q. Book of Joshua refers to Book of Jasher in the past, mentioned at 2 Sam 1:18, therefore Joshua must be post-David.
R. Captivity is mentioned at Judg 18:30, making it post-Exile.
S. David took Goliath's head to Jerusalem (1 Sam 17:54). But Jerusalem was not captured until 7 years after David became king (2 Sam 5).
T. David paid 600 shekels of gold for the threshing floor (1 Chron21:22-25). But shekels of gold were not yet used in business transactions (this is the only use of the term in the OT).
U. Psalm 18:6 mentions the temple, thus cannot be by David.
V. Defeat of Sennacherib did not happen at Jerusalem, but at Pelusium, near Egypt, and Jews were not involved, contrary to 2 Kings 19.
W. Ninevah was so large it took three days to cross, i.e. about 60 miles (Jonah 3:3-4). Yet it had only 120,000 inhabitants, making a population density of of about 42 people per square mile for a city.
X. Daniel's account of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar is historically inaccurate; Nebuchadnezzar was never mad. Belshazzar, whom he says was king, was never king, but only regent. Belshazzar was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar, but of Nabo-nidus. Babylon was not conquered by Darius the Mede, but by Cyrus the Great, in 539 BC (Dan 5:31). Darius the Mede is unknown to history.
Y. Chronology of the empires of the Medes and Persians is historically incorrect in Isa 13:17, 21:2, Jer 51:11, 28
Z. Esther (and all the characters in the Book of Esther except Ahasuerus [= Xerxes]) is unknown to history, even though itclaims that its events are "written in the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia" (Est 10:2). The Book of Esther is not quoted by any pre-Christian writer, nor mentioned in NT, nor quoted by early Christian fathers.
A1. Mordecai became prime minister to Xerxes (Ahasuerus), who reigned 485-465 BC. But Mordecai had come to Babylon in 596 BC with Jehoiachin (Esther 2:5-6).
B1. The office of "High priest" of Mark 2:26 did not exist in David's day.
C1. None of the Gospels are mentioned by early Christians, e.g. Paul, Pope Clement I (97 AD), Justin Martyr (140 AD). The first mention of any Gospel is by Irenaeus (185 AD).
D1. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world (Matt 4:8, Luke 4:5).
E1. Jesus as a historical figure is not mentioned by any contemporary non-Christian writers.
F1. Matt 2:1 says Jesus was born in the reign of Herod, who died 4 BC. Luke 2:2 says he was born during Quirinus' governorship of Syria, which began 6 AD.
G1. Thieves were never punished by crucifixion (Matt 27:38, 44).
H1. No crucifixion would have been performed on the eve of Passover.
I1. There is no contemporary historical confirmation of darkness covering the earth at the crucifixion (Matt 27:35, Luke 23:44).
J1. There is no contemporary historical confirmation of the slaughter of the innocents by Herod (Matt 2:16-18). Josephus, whose history contains much criticism of Herod, does not mention it.
K1.There is no contemporary historical confirmation of the graves opening and the dead appearing to many at the crucifixion (Matt 27:52-53).
L1. in Mark 7, Jesus quotes the septuigant while arguing with the pharisees, in a portion of the old testament (Isaiah 29:13) that reads drastically differently from the Hebrew text. A Palestinian reading from a Greek text that contradicts the Hebrew to orthodox Jews is unusual to say the least.
M1. In Mark 10:12 Jesus tells Palestinian listeners that a wife who puts away her husband commits adultery, this would have been meaningless to Palestinian listeners where only men could divorce.
N1. In Mark 5:13 Jesus casts out devils and forces them into 2,000 swine who then run down into the sea and are drowned, this is said to have occured in Garasenes - 31 miles from the sea. In Matthew, which was written later, this is changed to Gadara which is much more feasible.
IV. Scientific Inaccuracy of the Bible
A. Earth is about 6000 years old, as calculated from the genealogies in Gen and Luke 3. (see the problem of a young earth later in the outline)
B. Birds were created before land animals (Gen 1:20, 24). - Fossil record shows exact opposite
C. Earth has four corners, and floats on water (Isa 11:12, Ps 24:2, 136:6, Rev 7:1).
D. Earth is a circular disk (Isa 40:22).
E. Earth is flat (these verses were used for centuries by the church to prove this: Ps 93:1, Jer 10:13, Dan 4:10-11, Zech 9:10, Matt 4:8, Rev 1:7)
F. Earth does not move (Ps 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 1 Chr 16:30).
G. Death or illness is caused by sin (Gen 2:17, Lev 26:16, 21, 25, Deut 7:15, 28:21, 27, James 1:15).
H. God himself believes that a house or clothes can have leprosy and he details the remedy. Lev 13, 14.
I. Seed must "die" before it grows (John 12:24, 1 Cor 15:36).
J. Snakes eat dust (Gen 3:14, Isa 65:25).
K. Every beast shall fear man (Gen 9:2).
L. The ostrich abandons her eggs (Job 39:13-16).
Well, there is a lot of nonsense in the Bible. We can safely say that there is no difference in evidence for fairy tales and evidence for claims in the Bible, which makes Bible a fairy tale.
"Do you agree fairy tales are stories that have been proven to have been made up and fabricated out of the figment of a story writer's mind?
No."
Let me show you how you do indirectly.
"Fairy tales will be defined as stories that are contradictory or stories that have no evidence to support them."
You said fairy tales have no evidence to support them. You defined it as no evidence period.
So to make it absolutely matter of fact that something has no evidence, there has to be proof of the counter.
So fairy tales absolutely have no proof or no evidence that they're not fabricated because the evidence is, they are unlike the bible.
'If you want, you can use the definition from dictionary:"
The problem is if we don't come to an agreement on terms and definitions, each of us can just make a case off a special tailored definition. In order to refute what you're saying, I have to find holes in your position including the terms you set for it.
Coming up with terms or a definition distant from yours, I'm no longer arguing against yours, I would have invented a position designed for myself to refute. Pretty much fallacious.
"Now, contradictions in the story obviously mean that the story is imaginary"
This is false. Just because eyewitness details conflict about an event that actually happened doesn't mean the event didn't happen.
" Absurd things also mean that story is imaginary."
Asurdity can be subjective so it depends on the actual details and realistic possibilities if dealing with a context of reality not including outside of it or preceding it .
"Lack of evidence for claims also means that story is imaginary."
Totally false unless you have evidence of an imagination playing a role in concoction.
"Now, the definition that you are proposing, demands of me to prove that story is fabricated and not real."
I didn't propose a definition to you.
"I have already done that in round 1."
So you think you've done that or attempted to prove that a story is fabricated then this comes full circle to the question I asked you about agreeing that a fairytale is something that can be proven to have been made up or fabricated, thank you.
The bible has not been so it doesn't equate.
"Contradictions are logically impossible to exist"
Contradictions due exist . Otherwise we couldn't identify what contradictions are if they didn't exist.
I give you that you worded that wrong.
"so the story in the Bible (that has contradictions) couldnt have happened and therefore, is not real."
Varying eyewitness accounts doesn't necessarily mean an event is false.
"Further, there are many absurd things in the Bible, such as disproportional punishments."
Subjective therefore inadmissible assessment.
"Justice implies eye for eye, not "you burn alive eternally because you didnt believe in me". "
Not going to debate opinions. Take notice when you start to give what you think and eliminate it from the debate .
"Further, because there is lack of evidence for all the stories in the Bible, and no evidence to prove God of the Bible was found despite thousands of years of search for such evidence, it follows that we must treat the Bible as the collection of unproven assumptions. Since fairy tales themselves are nothing but unproven assumptions, this makes Bible a fairy tale."
Simply put, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
"The Problem of the Bible (How the bible is literally full of errors in nearly every way possible.)"
I've written papers full of errors. Doesn't mean I don't exist. Does it make what I've written a fairytale even though what's written is true?
Even if I had someone else do it and it has errors, the same question applies.
"Well, there is a lot of nonsense in the Bible. We can safely say that there is no difference in evidence for fairy tales and evidence for claims in the Bible, which makes Bible a fairy tale."
If you're going to say fairy tales are of imagination I can agree because we can have the writers of those fairy tales say so.
The bible , no one has yet to prove it was of anybody's imagination. So therefore it does not equate to being a fairytale.
Round 3
My opponent claims that if something has no evidence, there must be proof for the opposite.
This is not correct. There can be no proof for God and also no proof against God.
But I have already provided lots of proof against Christian God.
Contradiction is by definition proof for something being incorrect. Since Bible has lots of contradictions, Bible is by definition incorrect.
Then my opponent makes a logically absurd claim that contradictions dont mean that the story is false.
Contradiction, by definition, means making two opposite claims. Since they are opposite, one of them is false and one of them is true.
Since Bible is filled with mutually exclusive contradicting claims, it follows that at least a good amount of Bible is false and imaginary.
Fairy tales sometimes contain truth or accurate things, but by definition they talk about imaginary magical beings.
Due to contradictions in the Bible, we can conclude that Bible talks about imaginary magical beings. If they were real, they would have no contradictions in their description. Since they have contradictions, some are by definition imaginary beings, which makes Bible a story about imaginary beings.
Bible, like fairy tales, also has no proof that it is not fabricated, but it has proof that it is fabricated. The proof is contradictions.
My opponent claims that lack of evidence does not mean that the story is imaginary. Fairy tales lack evidence. Bible lacks evidence. What is the difference? There is no difference. Imaginary can also be defined as that which is not real. That which is real has evidence to prove that its real. Thus, that which has no evidence is not real. Fairy tales are just unproven assumptions. Bible, being the collection of contradictory unproven assumptions, is imaginary by any standard commonly used for defining imaginary.
My opponent makes a claim that contradictions can exist. Yes, contradictions can and do exist in the Bible, since Bible itself is imaginary. As explained before, contradiction means that when you make two opposite claims, one must be false. One cannot exist in reality. Since Bible is filled with exactly that, it follows that many of the things Bible describes cannot exist in reality and as a result, are imaginary.
My opponent claims that writers of fairy tales admit that fairy tale is imaginary, which in his opinion is proof for imaginary. First, this is appeal to authority fallacy, where you trust writers for no reason. Second, if a fairy tale writer claims that his fairy tale is true, then even by my opponent's standards, fairy tale would still be imaginary and Bible would still be a fairy tale. Third, writers can write the truth and later claim that its false. Likewise, writers can write a lie and claim that its true.
Since Bible is filled with logical contradictions, by definition it cannot be true. Therefore, it is imaginary.
Christian God is usually defined as all powerful being, the infinite being or simply uncreated creator. Often he is described as totally good in the Bible.
1. There is no explanation for the existence of God
Some religious people have said that God is eternal and uncreated.
This is logically impossible, as eternity cannot exist and cannot be realized in any way. In fact, eternity cannot come into existence, as eternity by definition means "no end", so to come into existence, it would have to have an end. A logical contradiction.
For God to be eternal, past would have to be eternal, past would have no end, which is logically impossible, as with eternal past, we can never logically reach the present.
In eternity, number of causes would be infinite or there would be no cause at all, which in both cases would mean that there would be no actual cause to anything and things wouldnt need a cause in order to exist.
So God being eternal or timeless is impossible.
There is also no way to explain how eternity is even possible, as eternity by definition cannot be caused. So nothing can create eternity, making eternity uncaused.
As a result, there is no way to explain how God came into existence or why a different God or Gods doesnt exist instead.
But even if eternity was possible, it would work for atheism as then our world could simply be eternal and need no God.
2. There is no explanation for what causes God to do things
Why would God do anything? There is no reasonable explanation as to why God would create this world or any world. There is no cause which causes God to change, to act, to create. So a God would not create nor act.
3. The problem of perfection
A perfect being would create the most perfect world possible. Every part of that world would be perfect. Every rapist would be the perfect creation of God.
There is no explanation as to why the greatest and most perfect being would create a world filled with evil and non-perfections and random situations happening to random people.
Since each of us can imagine a better world, there is no logical explanation as to why a morally perfect and all powerful being created an unperfect world.
If you claim that this world is morally perfect, then you concede that every rapist is a morally perfect being.
Since world can only be morally perfect or morally unperfect, there is no 3rd option to save Christians.
So they must either concede that their God created a morally unperfect world, or concede that every rapist is a morally perfect being.
To make matters worse for Christians, they invented heaven.
Why would God put people on Earth, and then send them to heaven?
Why not send them to heaven immediatelly?
4. There is no way to justify punishing evil
If creating evil is a good action, then there is no way to justify punishing evil.
So God who created evil people would have no justification to punish them, as God himself creates evil.
Further, if creating evil is a good action, then all evil people are good.
5. Unjust disproportional world
Our world is filled with injustice and unjust treatment. In fact, randomly, good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good people, all at the completely disproportional random rate.
A perfect being would be perfectly proportional. Its creation would also be perfectly proportional. Why perfect being would create this random disproportional imperfection remains a mystery.
6. Disproportional punishment
Christian God does not follow "eye for eye" justice system that he said it should be followed in the Old Testament.
In fact, God of the Bible punishes majority of people with eternity of infinite pain of burning alive, when most of them didnt cause so much pain to anyone.
The punishment which God uses is infinitely disproportional to the sins committed, which contradicts the Bible's claim that God rewards according to deeds.
He punishes great majority of people with eternal great pain of burning alive, when those people in most cases did no such thing to anyone.
As we can see by basic law of logic,
Morally perfect being would by definition only do morally perfect actions and create only moral perfection. Since Christian God created evil humans, earth and diseases,
It follows that evil humans are morally perfect beings. If they were not morally perfect beings, we would reach a conclusion that morally perfect God created moral non-perfection, a logical contradiction and impossibility.
Therefore, when Bible claims that God is morally perfect, yet God's actions obviously result in evil, where moral perfection cannot result in evil or contain evil, it follows that Bible again contradicts itself.
There are more contradictions in the Bible, but my opponent didnt respond to previous ones either, and ignored most of my arguments. Further, he provided no evidence for Bible being true, so
Without refuting my position and without proving the opposite position, where I have proved my position in great detail, there is not much to discuss anymore, so I will end this round early without using all character space.
"My opponent claims that if something has no evidence, there must be proof for the opposite.
This is not correct. There can be no proof for God and also no proof against God."
Then this means you have no evidence that there is no evidence either way which validates what you say I'm claiming. You agree without realizing it .
"But I have already provided lots of proof against Christian God.
Contradiction is by definition proof for something being incorrect. Since Bible has lots of contradictions, Bible is by definition incorrect."
Ok so you opt to go into circles now. I already counter with points on contradictions and how it doesn't necessarily make something false.
"Then my opponent makes a logically absurd claim that contradictions dont mean that the story is false."
I don't believe I said that. I would of said not necessarily. I did not say absolutely.
"Contradiction, by definition, means making two opposite claims. Since they are opposite, one of them is false and one of them is true."
True but it doesn't NECESSARILY make the event that has the attached claims false. Do you get it now?
"Since Bible is filled with mutually exclusive contradicting claims, it follows that at least a good amount of Bible is false and imaginary."
No not correct.
"Fairy tales sometimes contain truth or accurate things, but by definition they talk about imaginary magical beings."
Fairy tales have been proven to be imaginary from their authors themselves,duh .
"Due to contradictions in the Bible, we can conclude that Bible talks about imaginary magical beings. If they were real, they would have no contradictions in their description. Since they have contradictions, some are by definition imaginary beings, which makes Bible a story about imaginary beings."
This is a false conclusion from what I've already explained to refute you.
"Bible, like fairy tales, also has no proof that it is not fabricated, but it has proof that it is fabricated. The proof is contradictions."
Going by this fallacious reasoning because someone tells you I'm 5 foot 7 while another tells you I'm 6 feet, it proves I don't exist.
Very fallacious, I hope you get it sincerely.
"My opponent claims that lack of evidence does not mean that the story is imaginary."
You need to start quoting me. Otherwise you stand to be charged with misrepresentation.
"Fairy tales lack evidence. Bible lacks evidence. What is the difference? There is no difference."
Lacks evidence of WHAT? OF WHAT?
YOUR POINTS ARE INCOMPLETE.
"Imaginary can also be defined as that which is not real. That which is real has evidence to prove that its real. Thus, that which has no evidence is not real. Fairy tales are just unproven assumptions."
Which fairy tale is just an unproven assumption?
Pinocchio is proved to have been made up by a writer. Cinderella, Snow White, humpty Dumpty, all these have been proven to be false .
You have no proof that the Bible is a figment of imagination.
"Bible, being the collection of contradictory unproven assumptions, is imaginary by any standard commonly used for defining imaginary."
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. No evidence that you have seen doesn't mean there's absolutely no evidence. I think this is the distinction you have not learned.
Just because something hasn't been proven to be real doesn't automatically mean its false.
"My opponent makes a claim that contradictions can exist. Yes, contradictions can and do exist in the Bible, since Bible itself is imaginary."
Thanks for conceding that contradictions exist after saying they didn't. As far as the Bible, that is your claim and opinion that they do exist in the book.
When you don't understand scripture you charge it with contradictions.
"As explained before, contradiction means that when you make two opposite claims, one must be false. One cannot exist in reality. Since Bible is filled with exactly that, it follows that many of the things Bible describes cannot exist in reality and as a result, are imaginary."
It's very possible that you actually need to be biblically taught .
"My opponent claims that writers of fairy tales admit that fairy tale is imaginary, which in his opinion is proof for imaginary. "
Are you going to tell this to authors of fairy tales as well?
Is it just their opinion that THEIR OWN BOOKS THAT THEY WROTE ARE FROM THEIR IMAGINATION?
NO IT WOULD BE FACT.
"First, this is appeal to authority fallacy, where you trust writers for no reason."
First off get the proof that a writer is lying to you about the works they've written about. Second the evidence can be found that a particular writer has written a book.
These are weak counterpoints of yours coming off as delusional for real.
"Second, if a fairy tale writer claims that his fairy tale is true, then even by my opponent's standards, fairy tale would still be imaginary and Bible would still be a fairy tale. Third, writers can write the truth and later claim that its false. Likewise, writers can write a lie and claim that its true."
You get delusional in your arguments when your hit with fundamental established points. Wow.
You know a writer can prove a fiction that wrote.
Don't try to deny that.
You talk about trusting writers, then why post links to what people have written in this debates as sources?
See how you backpedal?
At least stay consistent.
You cannot prove that the bible is of imagination or else it you would have demonstrated it.
"Since Bible is filled with logical contradictions, by definition it cannot be true. Therefore, it is imaginary.
Christian God is usually defined as all powerful being, the infinite being or simply uncreated creator. Often he is described as totally good in the Bible."
This shows you have a lack of biblical understanding. You think the bible is about logic. This is where y'all mess up falsely claiming contradictions. This is why I say leave your opinion out of this.
"As we can see by basic law of logic, "
Not a book of logic. That's why I can say much of what you gave is what makes sense to you and is subjective and your opinion so it's invalid.
"There are more contradictions in the Bible, but my opponent didnt respond to previous ones either, and ignored most of my arguments."
I refuted ALL your arguments. You proved you don't understand the Bible thus unable to prove there are actually biblically contradictions versus what you think are ones.
"Further, he provided no evidence for Bible being true"
Never said it was true. Never said it was false. That's another distinction you failed to recognize.
"Without refuting my position and without proving the opposite position, where I have proved my position in great detail, there is not much to discuss anymore, so I will end this round early without using all character space."
You proved your opinion. End this round because you went in circles. Nothing personal but that's the truth.
Greetings. The topic: Is believing in the spirit of God, the bible, angels, demons equate to believing in fairy tales; are all these elements equivalent?
Must provide at least 5 arguments.