Instigator / Pro
0
1502
rating
41
debates
35.37%
won
Topic
#5223
Obliviate (without consent) should be considered as severe as an unforgivable curse
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 3 votes and with 21 points ahead, the winner is...
Mharman
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 5,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
21
1421
rating
23
debates
30.43%
won
Description
Definitions
Obliviate: The Memory Charm (Obliviate), also known as the Forgetfulness Charm, was a charm that could be used to erase specific memories from an individual's mind. It was different from the spell that created false memories
Unforgivable curse: Unforgivable Curses are the three most powerful and sinister spells known to the wizarding world, and are tools of the Dark Arts. They were first classified as "Unforgivable" in 1717. They are the Killing Curse, Avada Kedavra, the Cruciatus Curse, Crucio, and the Imperius Curse, Imperio.
Using any of these three curses on another human being, Muggle or wizard, will result in a life sentence to Azkaban, unless there is sufficient evidence that the caster did so under the influence of the Imperius Curse.
Con will argue Obliviate is significantly less severe than an Unforgivable Curse, burden of proof is shared
Con cannot argue that using Obliviate innately makes the victim forget/forgive (thus making it inapplicable to the forgivable namesake), this is about a societal standpoint and morality issue
Round 1
Forfeited
Forfeited
Round 2
Forfeited
Welcome, readers. The topic of this debate is related to the fictional universe found in the Harry Potter series.
Let's first begin this debate by understanding why Avada Kedavra (the killing curse), Crucio (the curse that tortures people), and the Imperius Curse (the mind control one) are considered unforgivable.
Avada Kedavra (https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Killing_Curse)
This curse is used to kill. While other spells can do this, this one is distinct: It requires the user to access an evil in their soul to perform, one that reaches a level of joy in malevolence. It also high level of skill to use, meaning that users need practice accessing that kind of evil in order to perform the curse. Barty Crouch (disguised as Mad-Eye Moody) in fourth book told the entire group of fourth-year students in his classroom they could "all get your wands out and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed."
We see this distinction in its method of killing as well: The killing curse rips the soul out of the body, rather than damaging the body so the soul leaves naturally. It's for this reason that its victims are left with no mark that could lead a muggle coroner to the cause of death. This is not a conventional curse; it is one made exclusively for killing (unlike, for example, the curse Expluso, which can be used to kill, but also for demolition).
The sensation of being hit by the cure is extremely painful, although not as painful as Crucio. In the seventh book, Harry Potter describes the feeling as "an iron-clad punch," however, he did not experience the full effect of the curse; the curse merely destroyed the horcrux embedded in Harry. Meanwhile, Lord Voldemort described the sensation as "pain beyond pain," although his soul was fragmented by his various horcruxes; thus his soul was prevented from entering the afterlife, keeping it a state of limbo between mortality and death. The level of pain would be somewhere in between the descriptions of Harry and Voldemort; nonetheless, it's likely one of the most painful experiences a wizard could endure.
This curse is used to torture. It also requires joy in malevolence. During the fifth book, Harry attempts to use the curse on Bellatrix Lestrange in retaliation for the murder of Sirius Black, but is unable to cast the curse due to his anger being "righteous anger." (He is able to cast the curse later, more on that in a bit).
In the fourth book, the sensation is described like this:
"It was pain beyond anything Harry had ever experienced; his very bones were on fire; his head was surely splitting along his scar... he wanted it to end... to black out... to die."
The pain from this curse can also cause permanent physical and mental injury to those who experience prolonged exposure, such as Frank and Alice Longbottom.
This curse is used to control. The case that this one requires joy in malevolence is unclear, as no Harry Potter media states it clearly. However, it is strongly implied when Severus Snape describes all three curses (https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Unforgivable_Curses) as needing lot of skill and nerve to cast.
This claim is backed up by its near-exclusive use by dark wizards, and Harry's successful usage of the curse during a break-in at Gringotts Bank, where he was attempting to recover one of Voldemort's horcruxes. This was in the seventh book, where Harry had also become able to use Crucio, implying that his newfound ability to access a malevolent state of mind gave him the ability to use both. This is an association argument, but I argue this is an association J.K. Rowling intentionally embedded into the books.
It places victims in a state where they are fully obedient to their master, and willing to do any evil the master commands them to do, such as casting the other two curses.
NOTE: Even if it doesn't require joy in malevolence, it does enables the control of others in a way that enables the usage of the other two in a person that wouldn't normally be able to use them. As such, it is considered as severe as the first two by the Ministry of Magic.
What makes them unforgivable
-Evil in the soul
-Premeditated usage (because practice is needed to cast them)
-Being spells made for torture, killing, and controlling others to do the same
Obliviate (https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Memory_Charm)
This is used to erase specific memories. While it can be wrongly used, its function is to keep the wizarding world hidden from muggles. It's so valuable that the Ministry of Magic has a position for those adept at casting it (https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Obliviator). It requires no evil in the soul to use, and it causes no pain.
Conclusion
Obliviate lacks the properties of unforgivable curses and has a legitimate use; it shouldn't be considered one.
(Also, the character limit here is quite limiting.)
Round 3
Forfeited
Vote con.
30 days of voting is wack imo
Ah, I forgot. Was busy with college assignments.
Just noticed it was a full week. Yeah, I'll be fine.
Considering this one. Might finally put actual effort in a debate on this site for once. But I'm going to ensure my schedule is free enough before I do so.
I always thought unforgivable curses were based on real life severe crimes of murder, torture and making others do bad things.
I guess the writer thought of those as worst crimes.
I can see it as being less bad than killing curse.
Of course, the other two curses are more debatable.