Instigator / Con
1
1494
rating
4
debates
75.0%
won
Topic
#5297
Astrology is real
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
baggins
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 16,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
0
1309
rating
269
debates
40.71%
won
Description
“Astrology”
-the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.
“Real”
-actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.
Round 1
1. Lack of Scientific Evidence
2. Lack of Consistency
3. Confirmation Bias
Astrology is a science, and science is real.
Romans fought wars and conquered the world, and they believed in planets.
Here are stories from other people who believe in planets:
"Don't role your eyes yet, I was sceptical too.
I'd never really thought anything of tarot card readings before, I'm not into fortune tellers or even horoscpes to be honest. However, a few months back I watched this vlog by Naomi Smart and I was very intrigued. (If you want to watch it, the relevant section is from minute 21.)
She said how she has a traditon with her friends to go to this tarot card reader in Brighton once a year. Naomi said, "They're always so accurate."
I still wasn't convinced at this point, but then she went on to explain what she'd been told and I suddenly thought it would be interesting to go along.
I booked in for a 30-minute session and had NO IDEA what to expect.
On the website the session is described as the following:
Having a tarot consultation/reading can assist the client to gain meaningful insights and deeper understandings into specific situations. It is a window through which we can discover and explore more about ourselves and work on balance and harmony in all areas of our lives and work.
A tarot reading can encourage clients to build confidence in making quality life decisions and find inner wisdom from past, present and future situations and challenges they may have faced or are facing.
The session starts by the reader letting you pick 10 cards out of their pack, and then what follows is discussions around what cards have come up for you. I got a bit lost with the card situation because she also used others from her pack of about 100, not just the 10 I picked, but she definitely had a system.
I'm not going to go into what she told me because that's very personal, but it was scary how accurate she was. Don't get me wrong she's not going to tell you what's going to happen on certain dates, but she was telling me things about my past that were impacting me now and I just don't know how else she'd know those things.
I didn't tell her anything or give her clues before or throughout. She knew my first name and that was all.
It didn't feel hippy-dippy either. It was a bit like a therapy session if anything. She'd lay out a card (she had a certain order of doing all this) and then discusss what that meant and then relate it to me.
At times she was saying things that made me want to cry which is why I'd compare it to therapy. She was telling me issues I'd buried and ignored, and sometimes that's hard to hear - especially from a stranger.
My friend also went and she found it a very positive experience too. She said, "I found it incredibly interesting. Not 'airy fairy'. I'd highly recommend it and would go in with an open mind. I found it empowering in a way! It all felt very genuine. Plus the reader was very personable.""
Round 2
Astrology is a science, and science is real.
Astrology has been rejected by the scientific community as having no explanatory power for describing the universe. Scientific testing has found no evidence to support the premises or purported effects outlined in astrological traditions.
Astrology has not demonstrated its effectiveness in controlled studies and has no scientific validity, and is thus regarded as pseudoscience.
Romans fought wars and conquered the world, and they believed in planets.
What someone believes in is irrelevant to what is actually true.
The fact that they fought wars and conquered “the world” is irrelevant also.
Here are stories from other people who believe in planets:
Regardless of the stories, which I can discuss deeper if we have to, this is not a sufficient evidence for anything and would not meet the criteria for BoP.
"Western astrology is a form of divination based on the construction of a horoscope for an exact moment, such as a person's birth.[94] It uses the tropical zodiac, which is aligned to the equinoctial points.[95]
Western astrology is founded on the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies such as the Sun, Moon and planets, which are analysed by their movement through signs of the zodiac (twelve spatial divisions of the ecliptic) and by their aspects (based on geometric angles) relative to one another. They are also considered by their placement in houses (twelve spatial divisions of the sky).[96] Astrology's modern representation in western popular media is usually reduced to sun sign astrology, which considers only the zodiac sign of the Sun at an individual's date of birth, and represents only 1/12 of the total chart.[97]
The horoscope visually expresses the set of relationships for the time and place of the chosen event. These relationships are between the seven 'planets', signifying tendencies such as war and love; the twelve signs of the zodiac; and the twelve houses. Each planet is in a particular sign and a particular house at the chosen time, when observed from the chosen place, creating two kinds of relationship.[98] A third kind is the aspect of each planet to every other planet, where for example two planets 120° apart (in 'trine') are in a harmonious relationship, but two planets 90° apart ('square') are in a conflicted relationship.[99][100] Together these relationships and their interpretations are said to form "...the language of the heavens speaking to learned men."[98]
Along with tarot divination, astrology is one of the core studies of Western esotericism, and as such has influenced systems of magical belief not only among Western esotericists and Hermeticists, but also belief systems such as Wicca, which have borrowed from or been influenced by the Western esoteric tradition. Tanya Luhrmann has said that "all magicians know something about astrology," and refers to a table of correspondences in Starhawk's The Spiral Dance, organised by planet, as an example of the astrological lore studied by magicians.[101]"
Round 3
PRO has not adequately addressed the main three problems I presented in round 1 for Astrology.
PRO has only presented stories and claims with nothing to back them. No evidence yet.
Even the sources he uses are against him. I’ll present a couple quotes from the wiki page he cited and his stories.
Western astrology is a form of divination
“Divination” -
(from Latin divinare 'to foresee, foretell, predict, prophesy, etc.') is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of an occultic ritual or practice. Using various methods throughout history, diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact or interaction with supernatural agencies such as spirits, gods, god-like-beings or the "will of the universe".
Astrology is a range of divinatory practices, recognized as pseudoscientific since the 18th century
This is how the article that he cited starts which completely contradicts his statement that Astrology is true because “Astrology is a science, and science is real”
Following the end of the 19th century and the wide-scale adoption of the scientific method, researchers have successfully challenged astrology on both theoretical and experimental grounds, and have shown it to have no scientific validity or explanatory power. Astrology thus lost its academic and theoretical standing in the western world, …
*from PRO’s sources*
(For more just visit PROs source and read the beginning and the scientific section for Astrology)
▪️In the stories PRO shows there’s multiple claims that PRO hasn’t shown any proof of.
▪️PRO has not shown the validity of the Zodiac,
Horoscopes, Taro cards, etc …
▪️PRO has not shown how the position of celestial bodies affect human life the way Astrology claims they do.
▪️If PRO claims Astrology is a science he should not have a problem with that.
I concede.
Round 4
Thanks for the debate!
Thank you for the debate. It was fun.
Wow.
Well, I cant really call an app useless, if an app accurately describes my situation in over 70% of the cases.
It is good even if we were to assume that it just guesses most common outcomes and situations, because being aware of those is helpful.
I’m not sure what they are but if it’s something like Astrology and you find it accurate I would probably recommend reading about the Barnum Effect and in general about cognitive biases.
I have lots of tarot apps on my phone. I cant prove this, but I find them surprisingly accurate.
Well, my case is usually built on facts, and its a fact that planets exist and produce gravity which affects us.
I’m not sure if it’s connected to astrology but you can argue and present anything you think can help your case.
Does astrology include tarot cards?