Instigator / Pro
2
1510
rating
64
debates
53.91%
won
Topic
#5324
In any nation where men and women are equal on paper, women are more privileged by default
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
0
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...
RationalMadman
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
7
1716
rating
566
debates
68.29%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
Human biology rigs the dating market in favor of women.
Feminists believe that society is misogynist because women are more likely to face sexual harassment, and my response is "boo hoo people are actually attracted to you, poor women *rolls eyes*"
The fact is that what constitutes sexual harassment/assault is mostly contingent upon what the woman feels about it, so a Chad and an ugly dude can do the exact same thing to the exact same woman and one will go to jail while the other will get laid later that night.
Incels are the laughing stock of society, but women who are raped are taken very seriously and treated like what happened to them is the worst thing ever. I would argue that being lonely and made to feel inferior for your entire life is worse than being raped once or twice in your life time, especially since lonely men are killing themselves in droves meanwhile a woman is far less likely to be raped than a man is to be an incel.
Women's standards for men are far more demanding and far more universal than men's standards for women. Almost any woman has the opportunity to enter a loving relationship whereas for males only stereotypical Chads can be loved with all a woman's heart and any other male can only hope to be settled for. On top of this, men are expected to pay for things more often than not and men have to do all the courting and impressing while women sit back and judge them because not only are women biologically wired to be passive in that way but women are the ones who typically have far more options so they don't have to do anything but pick and choose from all the men who are simping for them.
Society makes things easier on women.
People have more sympathy for women generally speaking. If a woman breaks down and cries in public, people will come and comfort her but if a man does it people will just give him funny looks or even bully him in most cases. If a woman stumbles out of a bar and passes out on the ground people will rush to her aid but if a man does it people will leave him there or rob him etc.
Women are able to be perceived as the victim even in situations where they are the bully. If a woman hits a man and he hits her back the man is seen as more in the wrong.
What's more is that women have an instinctive hatred of male sadness. It is seen as weakness and not manly/alpha enough. Women sometimes sympathize with male sadness, but only in cases where the male is attractive enough to make up for it or what the male is going through is undeniably brutal, or when the woman respects/appreciates that the male is being open with her because she sees it as a strength and the male is attractive enough for her to care in the first place. Women's empathy shuts off when it comes to lonely/ugly males because females instinctively dehumanize unattractive males and see them as nothing but a pile of unwanted genes.
When it comes to wage discrimination, I have never seen any evidence of women being paid less because they are women as a general common occurrence. In fact, women are financially privileged because even an average woman has the opportunity to sell her body or have things paid for by men just because she's a woman.
The fact is that what constitutes sexual harassment/assault is mostly contingent upon what the woman feels about it, so a Chad and an ugly dude can do the exact same thing to the exact same woman and one will go to jail while the other will get laid later that night.
Incels are the laughing stock of society, but women who are raped are taken very seriously and treated like what happened to them is the worst thing ever. I would argue that being lonely and made to feel inferior for your entire life is worse than being raped once or twice in your life time, especially since lonely men are killing themselves in droves meanwhile a woman is far less likely to be raped than a man is to be an incel.
Women's standards for men are far more demanding and far more universal than men's standards for women. Almost any woman has the opportunity to enter a loving relationship whereas for males only stereotypical Chads can be loved with all a woman's heart and any other male can only hope to be settled for. On top of this, men are expected to pay for things more often than not and men have to do all the courting and impressing while women sit back and judge them because not only are women biologically wired to be passive in that way but women are the ones who typically have far more options so they don't have to do anything but pick and choose from all the men who are simping for them.
Society makes things easier on women.
People have more sympathy for women generally speaking. If a woman breaks down and cries in public, people will come and comfort her but if a man does it people will just give him funny looks or even bully him in most cases. If a woman stumbles out of a bar and passes out on the ground people will rush to her aid but if a man does it people will leave him there or rob him etc.
Women are able to be perceived as the victim even in situations where they are the bully. If a woman hits a man and he hits her back the man is seen as more in the wrong.
What's more is that women have an instinctive hatred of male sadness. It is seen as weakness and not manly/alpha enough. Women sometimes sympathize with male sadness, but only in cases where the male is attractive enough to make up for it or what the male is going through is undeniably brutal, or when the woman respects/appreciates that the male is being open with her because she sees it as a strength and the male is attractive enough for her to care in the first place. Women's empathy shuts off when it comes to lonely/ugly males because females instinctively dehumanize unattractive males and see them as nothing but a pile of unwanted genes.
When it comes to wage discrimination, I have never seen any evidence of women being paid less because they are women as a general common occurrence. In fact, women are financially privileged because even an average woman has the opportunity to sell her body or have things paid for by men just because she's a woman.
Con
#2
Definitions
Privilege
especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office
If something happens by default, it happens only because something else which might have prevented it or changed it has not happened.
an adult female person
Men do not need to be defined, everyone knows what they are and they are superior to women.
====
Con's case
Women are inferior to men in ways that would specifically benefit women and are superior to men in ways that benefit men, women and children alike.
Women are X than men (click on each word for source backing it):
- shorter once past or deep into the male puberty age
- weaker physically top-heavy severity. The weakest men is extremely weak, probably no difference to weakest woman but at the athletics, bodybuilding, dancer and any such level you will see the women can't remotely equal to the men.
- Better at helping others emotionally, worse at enduring emotional stress themselves.
- Women tend to score higher than men in areas of empathy, interpersonal relationships and social responsibility.
Men tend to score higher than women in areas of assertiveness, stress tolerance and self-regard (or confidence).
- Remember this: Almost all the ways that women are superior ultimately benefit others, including men
- Here's where women differ from men. If the other person is upset, or the emotions are disturbing, women's brains tend to stay with those feelings.
But men's brains do something else: They sense the feelings for a moment, then tune out of the emotions and switch to other brain areas that try to solve the problem that's creating the disturbance.
Thus women's complaint that men are tuned out emotionally, and men's that women are too emotional — it's a brain difference.
Neither is better — both have advantages. The male tune-out works well when there's a need to insulate yourself against distress so you can stay calm while others around you are falling apart and focus on finding a solution to an urgent problem. And the female tendency to stay tuned in helps enormously to nurture and support others in emotionally trying circumstances. It's part of the "tend-and-befriend" response to stress.
4. (sorry not sorry to transgenders but we're talking gender trends here) Bring (host in womb and birth) life and nurture life better, destroy, abuse and decimate less often and effectively.
A 2000 global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime found that men accounted for about 98 percent of all homicide perpetrators worldwide[2] and 79% of the victims.
A 2000 global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime found that men accounted for about 98 percent of all homicide perpetrators worldwide[2] and 79% of the victims.
You may think 'ha' Con you lost!
Hold on a minute, if women are killed less than men and last longer than men but their existence consistently benefits everyone else more than men is that privilege or a net-zero case of mutually beneficial pseudo-privilege?
They are there to support and nurture, let's enjoy.
5. Far less frequently geniuses and far lesso ften idiots that get to live life free of worry and are a protected class when at the R-word level.
The R word is not rapist, Rabbi, radical, Republican, religious or racist, please do not make the error of confusing that for sign of low IQ even though some correlation may be know to exist between some of those and low IQ.
6. less frequently (vs their population in the workplace) of gaining promotion than men in the same line of work. This is within an egalitarian society.
7. Superior with both enjoying and carrying out nurturing and spending time with children, the future generation (including boys) which is a task a lot of men don't like to do much.
In the survey, the researchers asked emerging-aged adults to rate how much they expected to enjoy 40 specific child care tasks and 58 specific household tasks. They asked middle-aged adults to rate their current attitude toward each of those same tasks. Participants in both groups also reported how they would ideally split the responsibility for each task with their partner.
“In the aggregate, women reported enjoying child care tasks more than men did,” Bleske-Rechek says of their findings. “In fact, although both sexes provided favorable ratings to most child care tasks, there was not a single child care task that men liked or foresaw liking more than women did.”
Women in both age groups said they preferred having more responsibility for scheduling and coordinating children’s events and appointments, and for shopping for children’s needs and wants. Men in both groups preferred that their partner have more responsibility in those areas, the study found.
The men in the study reported that they enjoy household tasks that involve physical work with objects, including outdoor labor and home fixes and maintenance, far more than women did. In fact, women tended to dislike tasks involving outdoor labor and home fixes and maintenance, Bleske-Rechek says.
“While women wanted their partners to have responsibility for those tasks, men themselves also preferred to have more responsibility for those tasks,” Bleske-Rechek says.
In addition to child care, women said they also preferred tasks associated with food preparation, family scheduling and organizing, and home aesthetics much more than men did. Even though men did not necessarily dislike those tasks, men tended to prefer that their partner have more responsibility for them, she says.
Feminists believe that society is misogynist
that has nothing to do with their privilege.
because women are more likely to face sexual harassment, and my response is
Pro's response was conceding it.
The fact is that what constitutes sexual harassment/assault is mostly contingent upon what the woman feels about it, so a Chad and an ugly dude can do the exact same thing to the exact same woman and one will go to jail while the other will get laid later that night.
We have not been given evidence that the Chad will go to jail while the ugly dude will get laid later that night. I am not sure how to prove that wrong though, so I will; concede it.
What I won't concede to is the fact that sexual harassment is remotely proof of female privilege.
Understanding the data on sexual harassment charges
The public discourse often discusses sexual harassment as a problem that primarily confronts women. The available data show that sexual harassment does have a disproportional impact on women. Multiple surveys indicate that a majority of women report experiencing sexual harassment at some point their lives, often starting at a young age. The ramifications of sexual harassment for women are enormous. Researchers have found that women who experience workplace sexual harassment may be more likely to experience financial stress, have lower job satisfaction, and have higher turnover intentions and actual quit rates than women who don’t experience sexual harassment.
But sexual harassment is not solely a women’s problem. Data reported by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the main federal agency responsible for receiving and investigating workplace sexual harassment charges, show that in fiscal year 2017 just less than one-fifth—16.5 percent—of the sexual harassment charges received by the agency were filed by men, with the remaining 83.5 percent of the charges filed by women. While these numbers make clear that women, who comprise approximately 47 percent of the workforce, are disproportionately more likely file sexual harassment charges relative to their share of the workforce, they also demonstrate that a noteworthy portion of these charges are filed by men as well.
Not only is sexual harassment with great ramifications for the victim but men can file it too, they just do so less. Pro has not proven that any of this is by default either.
Incels are the laughing stock of society
Unproven/Sourceless.
but women who are raped are taken very seriously and treated like what happened to them is the worst thing ever.
This is a debate about privilege.
I would argue that being lonely and made to feel inferior for your entire life is worse than being raped once or twice in your life time, especially since lonely men are killing themselves in droves meanwhile a woman is far less likely to be raped than a man is to be an incel.
I do not understand what measurement system Pro is using to determine this.
If women are more privileged and more men than ever before are incels, it means the dynamics have changed in 1 of 2 ways:
1. Superior men, meaning superior to other men not to women that they are obviously superior than, now have more snowball advantage as the rich women who submit to them accepting their place in the harem help him maintain the harem more successfully, driving inferior mean out more often.
2. Women are lesbians more often which may make sense because they are using each other as men are more useless for the other gender in terms of emotional needs. Men need only play smart and find a bi woman to start a harem with, stay strong brothers and you will get to where I am.
Round 2
Pro
#3
1: Con doesn't even seem to be arguing that women are less or equally privileged, instead he is spamming sources without making a point and relying on most people's bias that says I must be sexist to think women aren't oppressed. He knows that the odds are rigged against me in this debate because people will be biased in two ways. One, they will assume that women are oppressed by default because all the civil rights stuff they've been taught around sex is about women's liberation from patriarchy that genuinely existed before but not now. Two they will assume that all the BOP is on me but actually "men and women are treated equally" and "men are privileged" are just as much of a claim as "women are privileged" so the BOP is equal and con has done fuck all to support his case.
2: Con brings up a good point that women also live longer and safer lives. He seems to imply that women benefitting others is somehow to their own detriment but doing so doesn't harm them and it even brings them pleasure in most cases.
2: Con brings up a good point that women also live longer and safer lives. He seems to imply that women benefitting others is somehow to their own detriment but doing so doesn't harm them and it even brings them pleasure in most cases.
Con
#4
We see that Pro is confused. Pro believes in the privilege of women!
What privilege I ask thee? What privilege indeed.
Women are weaker, their advantages help others more than them and their inferiorities to men benefit men more than others.
Women are not privileged by default. That is the very reason why policies were made to help them out. That's why athletics has a lesser league for women in all sports. That's why Chess elo grades have categories for women have lower Elo to earn them, that's why awards ceremonies had to have a 'best woman' and 'best man' category to avoid men slaughtering women.
Let's be honest, women are not privileged. Do not resent this, do not hate it. Embrace that policies help them have a fighting chance.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Women are weaker
Physical strength is nowhere near as much of an asset in this day and age as being attractive or being intelligent. "Pretty privilege" is real in all cultures, across the world people are treated better for being attractive and this applies to women more because even average women are seen as "pretty" whereas a man has to genuinely be hot to be considered hot.
Only in very short term scenarios is physical strength worth anything compared to beauty or intelligence. There is a reason men die younger than women, and part of it is that those big strong men who are supposedly so privileged are used as beasts of burden and cannon fodder while women sit on their ass sipping tea and gossiping.
their advantages help others more than them and their inferiorities to men benefit men more than others.
For some reason these men die younger and are more likely to kill themselves statistically. If women live longer and are happier than who is really losing even if women live very altruistic lifestyles?
Women are not privileged by default. That is the very reason why policies were made to help them out.
Women are oppressed by default, but when they are equal on paper they become privileged by default.
1: Women live longer and are happier.
2: Women have much easier access to sex and romance.
3: Women can acquire money from thirsty men at any time.
4: Everyone goes easier on women and sees them as more innocent by default.
5: Women are seen as oppressed, which means men are seen as oppressors, which means women can victimize men by victimizing themselves.
Affirmative action and divorce courts favoring women is inevitable because of how people are biologically wired to view women VS men once all the patriarchy that persisted before is done away with and seen as evil.
Does this mean we should try to oppress women just enough to make things equal? No, it isn't possible to do that. Either women are oppressed or women are privileged and there is nothing in between because women are disadvantaged in ways that lets them be oppressed by men but advantaged in ways that makes it so once the law protects them equally, they start living life on easy mode compared to men. It is better to just let women win in this case, for the same reason it would be ridiculous to ban tall people from the NBA just because equally letting tall and short people play basketball would put the shorts at a disadvantage.
1: Women live longer and are happier.
2: Women have much easier access to sex and romance.
3: Women can acquire money from thirsty men at any time.
4: Everyone goes easier on women and sees them as more innocent by default.
5: Women are seen as oppressed, which means men are seen as oppressors, which means women can victimize men by victimizing themselves.
Affirmative action and divorce courts favoring women is inevitable because of how people are biologically wired to view women VS men once all the patriarchy that persisted before is done away with and seen as evil.
Does this mean we should try to oppress women just enough to make things equal? No, it isn't possible to do that. Either women are oppressed or women are privileged and there is nothing in between because women are disadvantaged in ways that lets them be oppressed by men but advantaged in ways that makes it so once the law protects them equally, they start living life on easy mode compared to men. It is better to just let women win in this case, for the same reason it would be ridiculous to ban tall people from the NBA just because equally letting tall and short people play basketball would put the shorts at a disadvantage.
Con
#6
Pro has decided to bring in brand new points in the final Round all of which voters would disregard in an ideal world. We don't live in an ideal world and I act second in this debate so I'll respond.
Pro concedes the physical superiority of men in both height and strength but says it doesn't matter much in the modern world. The debate is if women are privileged by default, which means the default before factoring in things like modern world matters. It is not necessary for me to prove the men's privilege is significant for the women being inferior in the departments to weight against them being defaulted to privileged status.
For some reason these men die younger and are more likely to kill themselves statistically.
That's their privilege to do. Women won't kill themselves because of those close to them they benefit. I can argue this both ways and insert assumptions as to why it's happening if you won't back it with sources and explain how this is default privilege of women rather than post-default results of other factors and the people.
If women live longer and are happier than who is really losing even if women live very altruistic lifestyles?
Nobody, it's a net-zero issue. The more selfish privileged gender is living less long it's a tit for tat unless you can prove the proportionality leans towards women, which you failed to do.
Women are oppressed by default, but when they are equal on paper they become privileged by default.
You can't be oppressed by default and privileged by default. You have to prove otherwise.
1: Women live longer and are happier.
You didn't prove happier this entire debate, I dismiss it as falsehood or assumptive.
2: Women have much easier access to sex and romance.
Than who? You have to prove the lesbian sex is happening so much more than the sex involving men, who everybody knows are the more horny gender that frequently sexually harass and even rape women (and men) extremely more often than the reverse, which was what you conceded in Round 1.
3: Women can acquire money from thirsty men at any time.
Capitalism, if this is referring to that, applies to both genders being able to acquire either money or property from anyone else in exchange for goods, services or just plain old feel-good charity.
4: Everyone goes easier on women and sees them as more innocent by default.
This is 0% proven and a brand new point Pro raises in the last Round. The reason this may be true is they literally are the less self-centred gender that do show more compassion and nurture the other gender as well as their own and children much more than men do.
5: Women are seen as oppressed, which means men are seen as oppressors, which means women can victimize men by victimizing themselves.
What? I will not say more than the word 'what' voters please dismiss this brand new point as nonsense.
Affirmative action and divorce courts favoring women is inevitable because of how people are biologically wired to view women VS men once all the patriarchy that persisted before is done away with and seen as evil.
This is not biological wiring, this is truth that I backed up with sources. They are the gender that as a trend cares more and is kinder to the other gender as well as children. You have not countered this in any shape or form the entire debate since.
Does this mean we should try to oppress women just enough to make things equal?
What?
No, it isn't possible to do that.
Correct, you cannot oppress the inferior gender to make them equal unless you oppressed the superior one equally at a bare minimum and more importantly that your oppression led to nerfing of the superior one.
Either women are oppressed or women are privileged
The opposite of oppression is freedom.
The opposite of privilege is disadvantage, handicap etc.
While I agree it's likely to be that if things play out the privileged gender ends up freer, often in patriarchy men had to dress and act a certain way and bottle up emotions or they'd be bullied.
This is why I clarified in Round 1 that the way things play out is the superior men of all men end up with harems if things play out in true natural selection but then maybe as an equalising factor the inferior men gang up on the superior men and force something called 'monogamy' to make the game easier for them.
and there is nothing in between because women are disadvantaged in ways that lets them be oppressed by men but advantaged in ways that makes it so once the law protects them equally, they start living life on easy mode compared to men. It is better to just let women win in this case, for the same reason it would be ridiculous to ban tall people from the NBA just because equally letting tall and short people play basketball would put the shorts at a disadvantage.
this is just rambling.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Took a bit for this debate to build momentum. I could see con laying out some string, a stick, a nice treat, and a box overhead... Somehow I was like 'oh the box must be to provide shade' but in R2 he sprung the trap...
"Women are not privileged by default. That is the very reason why policies were made to help them out. That's why athletics has a lesser league for women in all sports. That's why Chess elo grades have categories for women have lower Elo to earn them, that's why awards ceremonies had to have a 'best woman' and 'best man' category to avoid men slaughtering women."
In one move, con knocked western civilization off the board. There wasn't even a real attempt at recovery after this.
...
Earlier points (from when I was grading this contention by contention).
Dating: pro (for the first point, not the second)
Pro starts strong here by showing that women have an advantage in setting the terms of things. Sadly, left to his own devices pro starts into rants about how rape is the lesser evil compared to not getting any action.
Con concedes the first point in this, and later criticizes the latter for lack of a coherent measurement system.
Wage Gap: con
Pro argues it doesn't exist, because women can whore themselves out to counterbalance it (FYI, if you need to counterbalance against something, that in itself proves it exists).
Con brings the expected point of less promotions for the same work.
Sexual harassment: con
Pro brought this up, and con was quick to point out that sucks for women so more is worse. Con further supported this with a comparison of the rates to which each group files complaints (hell, a couple years ago I was being sexually harassed at work, I didn't realize it and filed a complaint for the threats of violence which stemmed from me refusing to let them touch me).
Height: Con
Muscle Mass: Con
Pregnancy: Pro
Con's point, but it favors pro due to it showing something women are superior at (yes, in hindsight it this fed into denying BoP by showing they are not equal on paper).
Murder: Con
Yup, men really excel at that.
...
Without such a society as laid out in the title existing, pro cannot meet BoP, thus victory defaults to con. In contrast, con offered plenty of evidence to support his tactic as being more than baseless assertions, which pro would do well to learn from. Sources which particularly stood out are hbr.org which showed clear inequity, and ncbi.nlm.nih.gov for a breakdown on muscle differences.
Ty for the vote.
My second source was a mistake
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/by-default
I forgot to clear it up and figured it didn't matter unless Collins dictionary thinks it's worth to sue DART to get me banned for it.
Started reading this, and I'm instantly reminded of an old SNL skit starring Tom Brady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuUkYiaUc8
vote and enjoy.
An average woman is already attractive to most men. Women don't care if you're in really good shape if you're short and ugly.
Muscles are over rated in men, there are genuinely women who prefer normal or even super skinny bodies. There are no or at least very few women who like fat men but there are tons of men who like fat women.
All women are attracted to tall men and handsome men, assuming they're attracted to men at all.
An average woman cannot become 'beautiful' without excessive amounts of money for plastic surgery, but an average man can become a Chad by working out for four hours a day.
God damn you're stupid. Any average woman can sell her body but only Chads can have the same success as average women do. A 5/10 woman is hot to the average man but only 8-10 men are hot to the average woman.
"In fact, women are financially privileged because even an average woman has the opportunity to sell her body."
Men can also sell their bodies. have you never seen a male prostitute?
I warn you I'm gonna take a sexist kritik angle you won't expect.