Instigator / Pro
7
1588
rating
21
debates
73.81%
won
Topic
#5765

It is more likely that no god* exists rather than any form of god existing.

Status
Voting

The participant that receives the most points from the voters is declared a winner.

Voting will end in:

00
DD
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00
HH
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MM
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SS
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Rated
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Minimal rating
None
Contender / Con
3
1507
rating
6
debates
58.33%
won
Description

Alright, it’s been a while since I’ve done an atheism debate and I miss it kinda.

God: a perfectly good, omnipotent and omniscient being that created the universe.

Please note that neither side has to prove that god is real or not, you just have to make a case that your side is more probable than the other.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Introduction
My strategy for this debate is going to be just throwing out every good argument there is for atheism and hoping at least one of them convinces the voters. That said, I apologize if this gets to be a little long, but I create this debate with the express purpose of it being very in depth, so I think the time limit and character limit will support that. One final thing before I begin, I acknowledge that the primary burden of proof rests with me. I must have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely God does not exist, and Con must either have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely that God does exist, or demonstrate that I have not provided enough evidence to support my side. With that, here we go.

The Problem of Evil

This is one of my favorite arguments for atheism. At its most basic form, it goes something like this:

Premise 1: God is all loving (this is provided in my description of God, so by agreeing to this debate, you agreed to this premise)

Premise 2: The World has Evil in it

Premise 3: An all loving God would not create a world with evil

Conclusion: An all loving God cannot exist.

That by itself is probably the most common argument against god's existence, but what makes it my favorite is all the little other arguments that branch off from it. For example, there is the problem of animal evil. God could have created all animals so that they were photosynthetic (they get their energy from the sun), but God made it specifically so that many animals must eat other animals to survive. Why would an all loving God create a world where you must commit evil to others to survive? 

Many challenges to this argument say that it must be a part of his cosmic design. There must be some reason. Sometimes, the reason provided is that without some evil, you cannot have certain types of good. Eg. Without fear you can't have bravery, without challenges you can't have accomplishment etc. But if I was brave enough to save someone from a burning building, it still would have been better for there to be no fire. There would have been no property damage, so damage to me and the victims bodies, and the loved ones would have been spared the horror of seeing their family member stuck in a burning building. So, I ask you, does it make more sense that an all loving God created a world with Evil just so there could be some other kinds of good, or would he have just have created a world where there is no Evil, and you always feel positive emotions? I feel that it makes more sense to just have a perfect world.

Additionally, If he was God, then why couldn’t he have made it so we feel emotions like accomplishment, and bravery regardless of actually having done anything. Emotions are emotions, and if God is truly all powerful (within possibility), then it would make more sense to have a world where we feel these emotions constantly. I know I would prefer a world like that.

And again, there is the problem of Animal suffering. Why would God make it so that some animals have to eat others to survive? I see no good coming out of this?

Because of this, I feel that it is more likely that the universe is simply indifferent to our suffering, and there is no all loving being trying to maximize our happiness.

Non-resistant Non-Believers/ Divine Hiddenness

This one is pretty simple. Why would an all loving God knowingly not reveal himself to people who are willing? A non-resistant non-believer is someone who wants to believe in God and is open to believing in God, but still has not had God reveal himself to them, and so does not believe. A perfectly loving God wouldn’t want someone like this to suffer. If a person actively wants to believe in God, and actively wants to have a personal relationship with God, then why would an all loving God deny this to them? 

Theists often respond to this one by saying that God must be acting in the best interests of the person, and they don't know it, but that brings us back to my use of the word "likely" in the title. 

It seems most probable (to me at least) that in order to be perfectly loving, god would want to have a personal relationship with all of his creation, especially if that creation desired one. It is possible that he is acting in some mysterious way, but I think that scenario seems to be a bit too complicated. As Occam's Razor says, the simplest explanation is often the correct one.

Religious displacement

This is another relatively simple one, but it is also a very powerful one, at least I think so. Basically, If God is all loving, and loves every one of his creations equally, then why are you more likely to have a divine visit if you live in a different country. For example, Thailand is about 92% Atheist. On the other end, India has a 99% rate of people saying that they are religious when polled.

If a god existed, you would expect to find that he has revealed himself to people indiscriminately of nationality, but clearly that is not true. 

Another addition to this puzzle is the variety of religions around the world. If there was an all loving god, it would make sense for him to reveal himself equally to people regardless of race and location. If that were true, you would expect all major religions to arrive at roughly the same idea. They might get some minor things different, but as we see today, to there are so many different religions with so many different beliefs. I find it hard to believe that a perfectly all loving god would allow this.

Divine Hiddenness (again, but different)

This one actually is different from my second point, but I just couldn’t think of anything better to call it.

I don’t think my opponent will object to the fact that region can cause conflict, specifically over which one is the correct one. While it is true that region only directly caused around 7% of wars, it is still a major problem that it caused any wars. And besides that even, religion one of the biggest dividing factors between us humans. If a war wasn’t directly caused by religion, then there is a good chance that the opposing sides had different majority faith systems, and this can be used by demagogues to whip the population into a frenzy of hatred.

With all of this in mind, God is clearly causing much harm by not revealing himself directly to all of us. If god were to appear before a massive gathering of us, and state clearly what religion is correct (if any), it would stop all the religious fighting. By not intervening, God is passively letting all this violence go on, and thus cannot be perfectly good.

Again, this isn’t a direct proof of anything. God may have his reasons for being so hidden, but it seems most likely that the universe is simply indifferent to our problems.

Conclusion

Those are some of the best arguments for atheism out there. There are some others, but I chose not to include them because they either weren’t that good, or I was too lazy. Sure, it is still a possibility that god can exist, but I believe that these arguments demonstrate that it is at least improbable. 

Thank you, I yield the floor.

Con
#2
Introduction 
For this debate I like   to   apply  tactics   of   Socrates    the Great      to   confuse    those   who   r    influenced  blindly   by   my respected      Opponent's   Motion. 
And to  display   truth  to those  who   like  to know  it.

The Problem of Evil |       Religious displacement     |Divine Hiddenness:

 God  is   great  and origin of   goodness....
innocence  , love  ,  wisdom   , grace  ,  truth    is  the fingerprints  of GOD.  GOD  is all ......  love...wisdom.....innocence.... grace.... truth...

God  is creator of  everything    and    creator  of  u and  me  ,    and   gives   us     free will   and intelligence     which  improved  with passage of time .  everything  is caged   into  nature  except us  .   only we  r able  to do anything against nature .  
Animal   eat  each other    lion  eat   deer....  eat....   grass.......  that's  just their nature   that is not  evil 

But when we learn from  them  and   do  good  things  for   mankind  and some  times   what we do  is   bad  for  everything......  that is not fault  of  GOD  ,    that is our  fault  of    humans   as  we  enjoy our   freedom to fly and  to reach the   blue  sky   for goodness   and   sometimes   result  r  worse  or not according to our     expectations  ....  that's  okay  and   the fact is  that  we  r the creator  of   evil

GOD  have  complete  free will  and  independent from everything  but   he still not   participate in this world and ofcourse   he don't deserve   to do anything  in  world after   GOD    create    humans      while     humans  have     half   free will  as  they depend on other things   and    for  that   we   participate in this world    .  becoz we need it    and    we   r   like     GODs  of       this world   after   Great  GOD Humans  r ambitious   so  we   do   bad and good   to  achieve something.

We r  the  children of GOD     ( special  creature  of  GOD     much   than others  ,  it doesn't mean   GOD  is our father )   but after all  we  can't   see the   GOD  becoz  we  r not able  see  GOD   it  doesn't  mean   ,   GOD      is  bad  who don't  reveal    his self to us    and   still   see   destruction and  fight   among  religions and  humans.  
nope !  nope !   at all ,  we  r not able to see him  and    we   r  in  playground     of world where   we  and  GOD     paly   hide and seek     .  GOD  never  reveal himself to us  we  find him  by ourselves   .....  and for that  every one  choose   their own way ,   no  one can  say this way is  wronge   or that  is   right     only      the end   results    tell  the  truth. 

Conclusions :  
 but  before  results   comes   its  better  for    humans to be believe in  their own selves  and      deal  with  love , grace and wisdom  by   their  intelligence     to find the  innocent    truth (GOD)  who is    without any  lie.  


Round 2
Pro
#3
For this debate I like   to   apply  tactics   of   Socrates    the Great      to   confuse    those   who   r    influenced  blindly   by   my respected      Opponent's   Motion. 
And to  display   truth  to those  who   like  to know  it.
First off, I always love a good Socratic questioning. Should be fun, lets see what you have in mind.

 God  is   great  and origin of   goodness....
innocence  , love  ,  wisdom   , grace  ,  truth    is  the fingerprints  of GOD.  GOD  is all ......  love...wisdom.....innocence.... grace.... truth...

God  is creator of  everything    and    creator  of  u and  me  ,    and   gives   us     free will   and intelligence     which  improved  with passage of time .  everything  is caged   into  nature  except us  .   only we  r able  to do anything against nature .  
I didn't specifically put that in my definition, but I think it's encapsulated in "Omnipotent" and "Perfectly Loving", so I won't object to that definition.

Animal   eat  each other    lion  eat   deer....  eat....   grass.......  that's  just their nature   that is not  evil 
I mean, yeah it kinda is. I didn't provide a definition for good or evil, and that's my bad, but being eaten by another animal certainly causes pain, does it not? If God was all-loving, he certainly wouldn't want any of his creations to feel pain whatsoever, so he wouldn't make it so that animals must eat each other. You say that it is just the nature of the animals, but God made it their nature. I never necessarily said it was evil, but it sure causes a lot of unnecessary pain, which an All-loving god wouldn't allow.

But when we learn from  them  and   do  good  things  for   mankind  and some  times   what we do  is   bad  for  everything......  that is not fault  of  GOD  ,    that is our  fault  of    humans   as  we  enjoy our   freedom to fly and  to reach the   blue  sky   for goodness   and   sometimes   result  r  worse  or not according to our     expectations  ....  that's  okay  and   the fact is  that  we  r the creator  of   evil . 
Sure, some evil is borne from humans, and it makes sense that some evil must be permitted in order for us to have free will. However, what about natural evil? What about Earthquakes and Hurricanes, Genetic defects that cause pain, Disease, and of course, death. Even if you believe in an afterlife, Death still causes lots of pain for the people who knew that person. Clearly, not all evil is natural.

Beyond that even, God may not create the circumstances in which we experience some pain, but he did give us the ability to feel pain. He may not be the one giving us this pain, but he brought it into the world, which isn't something that an all-loving God would do.

  but after all  we  can't   see the   GOD  becoz  we  r not able  see  GOD   it  doesn't  mean   ,   GOD      is  bad  who don't  reveal    his self to us    and   still   see   destruction and  fight   among  religions and  humans.  
No, I never said that God was bad because he didn't reveal himself to us, I said that he creates a lot of evil (religious wars/hate etc.) by not revealing himself to us. God is omnipotent (as stated in the definition), so he has the power to reveal himself to us. He's invisible by choice, not by nature as you seem to claim.

GOD  never  reveal himself to us  we  find him  by ourselves   .....  and for that  every one  choose   their own way ,   no  one can  say this way is  wronge   or that  is   right     only      the end   results    tell  the  truth. 
You can't say the God of different religions is the same God, when they contradict themselves so much. Is God 1, or 3, or many? How Powerful is he? Did Jesus exist? How did God create the Earth? Major world religions all disagree on these questions. If this is the same God, why is he explicitly revealing himself in different ways to different people? That also brings me back to the beginning of this argument, why are you more likely to have different divine revelations (or lack of)based on geography and ethnicity? Why would a God who loves us all equally do that? You didn't answer the question, you just tried to say that many contradicting things don't contradict, when they clearly do. A few things might match up, but the major details don't.

Conclusion/ Appeal to voters

My opponent has only responded to some of my arguments, and when doing so has only made a few vague statements. I believe I have refuted these claim pretty well, and so far I believe I have earned the arguments point. I also don't really know if this counts, but my opponents grammar and spelling have been abysmal this whole debate. I don't normally like to award the Legibility point myself, but their writing has gotten in the way of me reading their arguments multiple times, which I think falls under the criteria for awarding that point. 

Anyways, thanks for Participating Con, and thanks to anyone reading this for voting. I yield the floor.
Con
#4
Previous :
GOD  have  complete  free will  and  independent from everything  but   GOD  not   participate in this world and ofcourse   he don't deserve   to do anything  in  world after   GOD    create    humans  ,    while     humans  have     half   free will  as  they depend on other things   and    for  that    humans  participate in this world    .  becoz  humans need it    and     humans  r   like     GODs  of       this world   after   Great  GOD .   Humans  r ambitious   so  we   do   bad and good   to  achieve something.
  Natural  :  pain |   evil  | Death | Disasters 

After  Great  GOD  we  r sub-gods  (humans) of this world ,  who  learn   to be   gods     from this world ,  of this world. 
Evil  belongs  to us (humans or  sub-Gods  ) not to Great  GOD and  the other  thing is that   whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , .......)  happens  in  this  world   is not    concern of  God  ,  its    part of  this world and that's  not  bad ,   we   r humans   and we learn    and tackle   it  ,  that's    why  we  r   sub-Gods


Previous :
   we  r not able to see him  and    we   r  in  playground     of world where   we  and  GOD     paly   hide and seek     .  GOD  never  reveal himself to us  we  find him  by ourselves   .....  and for that  every one  choose   their own way ,   no  one can  say this way is  wronge   or that  is   right     only      the end   results    tell  the  truth. 


we  and  GOD     play   hide and seek   :    hide and seek  is a   game  in which    one participant     ( john)     find  other  hidden   participants (friends  of   John)   ,   game     ends only   when     john    find  all his  friends 

You can't say the God of different religions is the same God  , If this is the same God, why is he explicitly revealing himself in different ways to different people?

Ans in short :        every one  choose   their own way   
  Explanation :     as u  say     i can't say     God   of    different  religions  is   same God  ,   ofcourse at   that  spot    i   say  too  that :  " Religion/s    r  man-made   ,  religion is not concern of God"
our   f*   forefathers     make  this   shit  (religion) ,  haha   so just    f*  with  it    don't     f*    on  it.  every one  choose   their own way   to  find  the    friend (God).
our  Great   God is   free  from  religion.
  I remember   one  line  of      a   atheist  scholar  :   "   when   good  ppl  do  bad things  that  is religion  "
Conclusion/ Appeal to voters
(religion)  :   just    f*  with  it ,   don't     f*    on  it
if  u   really want  to believe   in   something   then  only  believe  in       urself   ,   so   may  u find   the   truth  ( may be that is God)
Don't  believe  in     Pro  or    Con   ,    becoz  we     r    sub-Gods     we   r just  able  to  make u confuse 
As  u   see  i tell u  truth   and     |  Y   |       the one  who    deserve      ur  votes 

Conclusion/ Appeal to Pro   (only for  Pro/Con)

My opponent has only ......  made a few vague statements ..., my opponents grammar and spelling have been abysmal this whole debate....... reading .... arguments multiple times....... I think falls under the criteria for awarding that point    
Never  forget  that      |  Y   |      r     rational  gladiators  .... but  not   a  beggar  .....    |  Y   |      r   not  greedy  for     votes   ....  but for   truth     
 |  Y   |        never win  by      convincing    ppl    , but by    revealing   truth  to them

but   Y  f*   very   well  by   rational thoughts  
Pro/Con  =   Y        
f * =   fight , fun  , fierce  .....  depend  on    situation 







 

Round 3
Pro
#5
After  Great  GOD  we  r sub-gods  (humans) of this world ,  who  learn   to be   gods     from this world ,  of this world. 
Evil  belongs  to us (humans or  sub-Gods  ) not to Great  GOD and  the other  thing is that   whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , .......)  happens  in  this  world   is not    concern of  God  ,  its    part of  this world and that's  not  bad ,   we   r humans   and we learn    and tackle   it  ,  that's    why  we  r   sub-Gods
What do you mean it doesn't concern God, it has everything to do with him. As provided in the description, God is all-loving and so it is his concern when humans are suffering due to evil he created. Natural evil absolutely is bad, because it causes harm. Think about it this way, would you rather live in a world where you felt happiness all the time, regardless of circumstances, or this current world. God gave us the ability to feel pain and sorrow, why?

we  and  GOD     play   hide and seek   :    hide and seek  is a   game  in which    one participant     ( john)     find  other  hidden   participants (friends  of   John)   ,   game     ends only   when     john    find  all his  friends 
But what happens when John's friend stops playing without telling him? This is the problem of Non-resistant Non-believers. I'm an Atheist, but do you think I want that to be the case? I would much rather know that there is an all powerful being who created the universe, and he loves me infinitely, and yet that being hasn't revealed himself to me, or millions of other people. Why does God openly refuse us when we look for him? An all loving God certainly wouldn't.

Ans in short :        every one  choose   their own way   
  Explanation :     as u  say     i can't say     God   of    different  religions  is   same God  ,   ofcourse at   that  spot    i   say  too  that :  " Religion/s    r  man-made   ,  religion is not concern of God"
our   f*   forefathers     make  this   shit  (religion) ,  haha   so just    f*  with  it    don't     f*    on  it.  every one  choose   their own way   to  find  the    friend (God).
our  Great   God is   free  from  religion.
Okay, well then why has God created so many wars and problems on Earth by revealing himself in different ways, or not revealing himself to whole races of people? God may not have created religion, but we created it about him, and we have vastly different revelations about his nature based on nothing besides just geography. You still haven't answered the question.

I'll save my conclusion for next round, in the meantime, you still haven't provided any arguments for your side, just rebuttals. You may want to do that FYI. Thanks for your time Con, I yield the floor.


Con
#6
Moozer325  my   dear   and holy  opponent  ,  u not need to say  thanks   as   much i need it to    thanks and appreciate,  u r  a great  debater  who    honor me and  debate with me.
As in this regard  i try  my best  to reveal the truth .

V.I.P  questions  of   pro
What do you mean it doesn't concern God, it has everything to do with him. As provided in the description, God is all-loving and so it is his concern when humans are suffering due to evil he created. Natural evil absolutely is bad, because it causes harm. Think about it this way, would you rather live in a world where you felt happiness all the time, regardless of circumstances, or this current world. God gave us the ability to feel pain and sorrow, why?
 
V.I.P   Ans of  con
Evil  belongs  to us (humans or  sub-Gods  ) not to Great  GOD and  the other  thing is that   whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , wars.....)  happens  in  this  world   is not    concern of  God  ,  its    part of  this world and that's  not  bad ,   we   r humans   and we learn    and tackle   it  ,  that's    why  we  r   sub-Gods
And u see   humans  have  dreamt    of    Utopia   ,   humans    learn        from this world  , and try to be better  more and more   , I  hope  one  day humans   make    Utopia  into reality.  Humans  not  blame    the  world  or the  creator   of  the world  ,  they   just learn and   make it better on their own  and they can  what  they  want  .     

Why does God openly refuse us when we look for him? An all loving God certainly wouldn't.
becoz   we  and  GOD     play   hide and seek     and   its not   good to give up    , we r humans    and    we  never give up.


according to con: 
 AnonYmous_Icon    not provided any arguments for  his side, just rebuttals 

but i do both  , and  in better  way  just   4   U   
Round 4
Pro
#7
Thanks so much for participating in this debate with me Con, I had a lot of fun and I hope you did too. I'll do a few final rebuttals, and then get on to my conclusion.

becoz   we  and  GOD     play   hide and seek     and   its not   good to give up    , we r humans    and    we  never give up.
But we shouldn't even have to try, right? Besides, some people die without ever having a relationship with God. Again, he's clearly refusing us, why?

And u see   humans  have  dreamt    of    Utopia   ,   humans    learn        from this world  , and try to be better  more and more   , I  hope  one  day humans   make    Utopia  into reality.  Humans  not  blame    the  world  or the  creator   of  the world  ,  they   just learn and   make it better on their own  and they can  what  they  want  .     
First of all, that still doesn't address the problem of natural evil. Secondly, if humans were provided with a perfect world to begin with, they would have no need to cause pain, thus God technically had the ability to make the world perfect, yet chose not to. Finally, God may not cause all pain directly, but he did give us the capacity to feel it, thus technically causing pain in another way.

To recap, God creates pain through natural evil, gives people the opportunity to cause others pain, and on top of all that, gives us the ability to feel pain. Why would a loving God do that?

Conclusion

To conclude, my opponent has still not upheld their burden of proof, only provided rebuttals. They have also just reiterated the same argument since the beginning, regardless if I have provided counter arguments. In addition, the responses to some of my other points (such as religious displacement) have been very short and they have not followed up on them.

I believe I have won the arguments point. No one should be awarded sources due to the nature of the debate, and my opponents conduct has been phenomenal, so that point should not be awarded either. I generally don't like to award the legibility point myself, but my opponents grammar and sentence structure has been abysmally this whole debate. Normally, I wouldn't care, but this has impeded my ability to understand their arguments to the full extent, so at least consider awarding that point.

That you so much for reading, and vote Pro!
Con
#8
Moozer325  say many good things before the conclusion but  after it..... alright
Haha  , when i read  the conclusion i  still  don't  understand   , that u actually try to   correct me  as i do for u   ,  or just criticize  on  my way of  debating  in front of    voters/audience   .......... 
 That you so much for reading, and vote Pro!                    (  that = thank )
ur  conclusion   is really out of blue     Pro!  Yeah  My Holy     Pro  u  pretty good   to manipulate   innocent  ppl   
but those  who   try to find truth   they don't    trap in ur  trap  
alright ,   but  i  like to    clap on ur   performance   well-done

Moozer325   like to ask : 
some people die without ever having a relationship with God.  he's   ( God ) clearly refusing us, why?
God creates pain through natural evil, gives people the opportunity to cause others pain, and on top of all that, gives us the ability to feel pain. Why would a loving God do that?
It    seems u   Don't  blame    ppl  and don't  blame God  ,  maybe that's  true  , if that true  i like that  , but   if  not then   the thing  is that   GOD don't  interfere  in this world  after   make it    ,   and  the   ppl    just  try  to find  the truth ,   and  previous  ppl r   teachers of  next   ppl  ,   that's  a good thing    ..... there's not point of sadness  or blame
GOD and ppl   all r good  and   beautiful  in  their way   ......   we  and  GOD     play   hide and seek game     just  enjoy the game  , learn and play  it in better way as u can  
who  break the rule  or game  or want to make it  , then i   told u    without  struggle  if  u find something  then   even that is  everything  u  don't  care  sometime  about it
We  r not dead  , we have a life to make something great  and better  , lets make it   , becoz  we  can   get   what  we don't  have yet    by our  grace  not by the   some code of religion or  divine   relation    , we  r   all divine   if  u know that

Thank you so much for reading  or  finding  the truth , and vote the  Pro!    that's  the  appeal of  Pro and  order of his Pro AnonYmous_Icon    by  ur  grace