Instigator / Pro
32
1577
rating
99
debates
59.6%
won
Topic
#6037
Protestantism is more correct than catholic/orthodox
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
15
0
Better sources
8
10
Better legibility
5
5
Better conduct
4
1
After 5 votes and with 16 points ahead, the winner is...
FishChaser
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
16
1511
rating
7
debates
21.43%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
definitions
Correct = Whatever the Christian God would agree with and approve of, the proper form of Christianity.
Catholic = the roman catholic faith, christians in communion with bishop of rome (pope) and following doctrines of the catholic church.
Orthodox = Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Christians.
Protestant = Affirming the 5 solas and the ecumenical creeds established by the early church
Sola Scriptura
Sola Scriptura refers to the belief that only Scripture is infallible. It does not mean that church tradition and hierarchy has no authority, but it means that church tradition and authority should not be seen as equally authoritative or more authoritative than scripture.
The Catholic Church believes that the pope can be infallible, the Orthodox Churches treat church tradition (as taught by church authority) as the ultimate authority. By their very nature humans are fallible, since the human intellect is limited. Only God has perfect intelligence, only God can never be wrong, Bible is the only word of God on earth hence only Bible can be infallible.
Sola Christus
No one within Christianity even disagrees with this. It means that salvation is through Christ alone. The thing is, to affirm this and also deny "sola fide" and "sola gratia" is a contradiction and thus catholcism and orthodoxy are self-refuting.
Correct = Whatever the Christian God would agree with and approve of, the proper form of Christianity.
Catholic = the roman catholic faith, christians in communion with bishop of rome (pope) and following doctrines of the catholic church.
Orthodox = Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Christians.
Protestant = Affirming the 5 solas and the ecumenical creeds established by the early church
Sola Scriptura
Sola Scriptura refers to the belief that only Scripture is infallible. It does not mean that church tradition and hierarchy has no authority, but it means that church tradition and authority should not be seen as equally authoritative or more authoritative than scripture.
The Catholic Church believes that the pope can be infallible, the Orthodox Churches treat church tradition (as taught by church authority) as the ultimate authority. By their very nature humans are fallible, since the human intellect is limited. Only God has perfect intelligence, only God can never be wrong, Bible is the only word of God on earth hence only Bible can be infallible.
Sola Christus
No one within Christianity even disagrees with this. It means that salvation is through Christ alone. The thing is, to affirm this and also deny "sola fide" and "sola gratia" is a contradiction and thus catholcism and orthodoxy are self-refuting.
Sola fide (faith alone): Salvation is by faith alone, not by works.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say there are "mortal sins" or "venial sins" and that a specific number or type of good works is required to make up for specific levels of sin. The Bible depicts sin as all or nothing, if you have any sin then you are just as guilty as if you had committed every sin.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say there are "mortal sins" or "venial sins" and that a specific number or type of good works is required to make up for specific levels of sin. The Bible depicts sin as all or nothing, if you have any sin then you are just as guilty as if you had committed every sin.
James 2:10
New International Version
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
This especially refutes catholicism because even the "smallest" sin is a MORTAL sin. There are no venial sins.
If you could be saved through works, Christ's sacrifice wouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Christ's sacrifice is necessary "for all have fallen short of the glory of God" and all humans sin.
Sola gratia (grace alone): Salvation is by God's grace alone.
Sola gratia (grace alone): Salvation is by God's grace alone.
This is implicit in "sola fide". There is a dichotomy between faith and works. You are either under a covenant of grace or a covenant of works, there is no in between. If you aren't 100% perfect and without sin and you aren't under grace you go to hell. If you are under grace then you are saved by faith and not works.
Soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone): All glory belongs to God alone.
Catholicism and Orthodoxy teach that there is a "treasury of merits" from which you can draw blessings. This comes not only from Christ, but from the saints. The saints have no merits though, for all human works are as filthy rags unto the lord as scripture says. Jesus says "none are good but God".
It is also counter-productive to spend time venerating and praying to saints when you could spend that time glorifying God himself. Every moment you spend venerating saints is time that you aren't spending glorifying God.
canon of scripture
The protestant canon of 66 books is the purest form of canon. The catholics use "deuterocanon" which literally means "secondary canon" and orthodox churches use even more extra books.
The Catholic Church only started insisting on including deuterocanon in the bible after the protestant reformation. Basically there is a difference between "essential canon" and "accepted canon". There are books in the Bible that always need to be there (the 66 books) and books that CAN be there which have varying degrees of credibility.
It's like how Muslims have a distinction between "disputed hadiths" and "authentic hadiths".
Now an objection that sometimes comes up with sola scriptura is "how do you get infallible canon from fallible church?"
You can get infallible canon from fallible church in the same way that you can get recommended a good surgeon by your general care practitioner. They don't need to be able to perform brain surgery to find you a good brain surgeon, because they know enough to know who is authoritative in that field and who isn't.
The early church wasn't infallible but it has enough authority and knowledge to figure it out.
More catholic than the catholics
Jesus wanted the church to be unified, he didn't say it had to be under one institution. The word "catholic" means universal, they are claiming to be the universal church of true christianity and that no one out of communion with them is christian.
As a protestant, you are able to be more ecumenical than that. Ecumenical means accepting other forms of Christianity. As a protestant you can see catholics and orthodox as true christians, whereas they are much more likely to think it is their way or the highway.
So protestants are more catholic than catholics, protestants are able to accept any non-heretical denominations as part of the universal body of christ.
More orthodox than orthodoxy
orthodox literally means "correct" but calling yourself correct doesn't make you correct. All of the above arguments should make it clear that Protestantism is orthodox and Orthodoxy is heterodox.
Soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone): All glory belongs to God alone.
Catholicism and Orthodoxy teach that there is a "treasury of merits" from which you can draw blessings. This comes not only from Christ, but from the saints. The saints have no merits though, for all human works are as filthy rags unto the lord as scripture says. Jesus says "none are good but God".
It is also counter-productive to spend time venerating and praying to saints when you could spend that time glorifying God himself. Every moment you spend venerating saints is time that you aren't spending glorifying God.
canon of scripture
The protestant canon of 66 books is the purest form of canon. The catholics use "deuterocanon" which literally means "secondary canon" and orthodox churches use even more extra books.
The Catholic Church only started insisting on including deuterocanon in the bible after the protestant reformation. Basically there is a difference between "essential canon" and "accepted canon". There are books in the Bible that always need to be there (the 66 books) and books that CAN be there which have varying degrees of credibility.
It's like how Muslims have a distinction between "disputed hadiths" and "authentic hadiths".
Now an objection that sometimes comes up with sola scriptura is "how do you get infallible canon from fallible church?"
You can get infallible canon from fallible church in the same way that you can get recommended a good surgeon by your general care practitioner. They don't need to be able to perform brain surgery to find you a good brain surgeon, because they know enough to know who is authoritative in that field and who isn't.
The early church wasn't infallible but it has enough authority and knowledge to figure it out.
More catholic than the catholics
Jesus wanted the church to be unified, he didn't say it had to be under one institution. The word "catholic" means universal, they are claiming to be the universal church of true christianity and that no one out of communion with them is christian.
As a protestant, you are able to be more ecumenical than that. Ecumenical means accepting other forms of Christianity. As a protestant you can see catholics and orthodox as true christians, whereas they are much more likely to think it is their way or the highway.
So protestants are more catholic than catholics, protestants are able to accept any non-heretical denominations as part of the universal body of christ.
More orthodox than orthodoxy
orthodox literally means "correct" but calling yourself correct doesn't make you correct. All of the above arguments should make it clear that Protestantism is orthodox and Orthodoxy is heterodox.
Con
#2
Correct = Whatever the Christian God would agree with and approve of, the proper form of Christianity.
This assumes God exists, assumes God to be the Christian God, assumes the Christian God to prefer 1 form of Christianity.
God's existence is unknown, we only have conceptions of God, one conception is the Christian God. In Christianity, Jesus Christ is crucified to save us from sin in salvation.
16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. -John 3:16-18 (ESV)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me-John 14:6 (ESV)
Belief in Jesus Christ being the savior is salvation, we are forgiven of sin. Jesus died to save us from sin, this is Christ's purpose in the Earth. Jesus wants belief in him. All forms of Christianity have this belief in Jesus being the savior, belief in Jesus being our salvation. Every form of Christianity is equally Christian. Christ wants belief in him, every Christian has belief in Christ.
Round 2
Pro
#3
This assumes God exists, assumes God to be the Christian God, assumes the Christian God to prefer 1 form of Christianity.
Christianity doesn't even need to be true for the resolution to hold. We can determine which form of Christianity is more correct based on how correctly it interprets and adheres to both scripture and the original traditions of the church.
Different forms of Christianity have contradicting views of scripture and church tradition, therefore some of them must be more correct than others even if they are all "equally Christian". If God doesn't prefer only one form of Christianity, then he prefers the diversity and ecumenism present in Protestantism over the strict monolithic "my way or the highway" attitude of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Con has dropped all arguments and thus effectively conceded to all of them.
Different forms of Christianity have contradicting views of scripture and church tradition, therefore some of them must be more correct than others even if they are all "equally Christian". If God doesn't prefer only one form of Christianity, then he prefers the diversity and ecumenism present in Protestantism over the strict monolithic "my way or the highway" attitude of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Con has dropped all arguments and thus effectively conceded to all of them.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Con has forfeited rather stinkily. The stench of Con's forfeit should repel you from voting for Con, and direct you towards the trajectory of voting for Pro.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Having fully forfeited 2 rounds, Con loses by forfeiture. Also, Con did not take the obvious, and necessary opposing argument that would have argued for Catholicism being the "more correct," but instead, devalued Christianityt altogether.
Con actually had more cited sources.
Both participants had good legibility.
Although forfeiting would normally argue for losing the conduct point, Pro's attitude toward Con was unacceptable harassment in two rounds. Point goes to Con.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeiture
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
I disagree, but forfeiture.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeiture
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
(I disagree with the resolution and love this subject, so I would be interested in debating FishChaser on this one.)
Essentially, Pro is arguing that the basic foundation of Christianity is based on scripture. Therefore, whichever side adheres to scripture is the closest to theological truth.
Protestantism is therefore more accurate than Catholicism and Orthodox.
Con makes no attempt to contest the resolution or argue the side she is required to argue. Instead Con tries, very unsuccessfully, to kritik the resolution by raising doubts for the existence of god. Since this is not a discussion about atheism vs christianity, I am rejecting this kritik.
Pro correctly points out that whether god exists/doesn't exist is irrelevant, as he is only referring to scriptural accuracy alone. Pro automatically wins this for arguments, and Con forfeits. Twice.
Which means the conduct point also goes to Pro.
Ohhh hell yeahh!!
I wish we had more of these that compare other religions to other religions. Protestantism vs Orthodox/Catholic debates are way more interesting than Atheism vs Christian debates.
This requires a fair amount of voting to be administered.
This one has your name on it.
It actually takes balls to reject many of laws, science and modern medicine just to support your belief.
lmao, the Jehovah's Witnesses use fake Bibles and cosplay as Christian missionaries.
I prefer Jehovah's Witnesses. They have balls.
https://www.jw.org/en/