Instigator / Pro

linguslerry

1500

rating

debates

0.0%

won

Topic

#6080

God must exist.

Status

Voting

The participant that receives the most points from the voters is declared a winner.

Voting will end in:

Tags

God

Parameters

Publication date: 04.20.2025 02:24AM
Last updated date: 05.27.2025 02:52PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Sir.Lancelot

1617

rating

197

debates

55.58%

won

Description

The evidentialist model is used by Christians and Atheists alike to prove their respective beliefs, however - unlike Christians - Atheists are unjustified in their use of it. Both Christians and Atheist presuppose the existence of transcendentals, and I am arguing that belief in a God is necessary for justifying truth claims.

I am not arguing through a correspondence theory, which states that an atheistic worldview is demonstrably false. I am instead arguing through a coherency theory of truth, in that my worldview is more coherent than yours, and that you must believe in a God to justify your use of evidentialism.

As a Christian I expect my opponent to be an atheist. I am not arguing for Christianity, I am only arguing for the belief in a God. I won't accept any argument from deism, for example that my worldview requires a specific type of God which it lacks, etc.

Debate Requirements: A brain, and good manners.

I hope to keep it short and simple.

Round 1

linguslerry

04.20.2025 02:55AM

Pro

When Christians and Atheists engage in debate, they almost always do so within an evidentialist framework. This means that they rely heavily on empirical data and inductive reasoning to support their claims. For example, a Christian might argue for the truth of Christianity based on the historical reliability of the Bible or the resurrection of Christ. Conversely, an Atheist might argue for evolution as an alternative to the Biblical account of creation, thinking it renders religious belief obsolete. Both arguments, however, presuppose the validity of induction and the laws of logic. What is often neglected in these discussions is a more foundational question: What justifies the very tools we are using to reason with?

When a person uses logic or induction to argue, they are assuming certain transcendental realities. These include the laws of logic (such as the law of non-contradiction, the law of identity, and the law of excluded middle), mathematical truths, moral principles, and even the reliability of sense perception. All of these are taken as given - fixed, universal, and binding upon everyone. But the deeper issue lies at the paradigmatic level: What is the ontological foundation for such realities? Why should we assume, in a godless universe, that such laws exist or that they are binding?

So, my first question to my opponent is this: How do you justify your use of logic in this debate to draw any conclusions at all? Are the laws of logic merely social constructs? Or perhaps they emergent properties of matter?

When you answer that question, you also come into the problem of induction. Science and everyday reasoning both depend heavily on induction: we observe consistent patterns in nature and assume that they will continue in the future. Why should you - as an atheist - assume this? What is your basis for believing that nature will behave tomorrow as it did today, and thus basing your entire worldview on this?

Thus my second question to my opponent is this: In a completely random, purposeless, chaotic, and godless universe, what justification do you have for trusting that the future will resemble the past, and that the laws of nature will remain consistent?

Lastly, the very debate we have presumes that truth exists, that it is objective, and that you and I are capable of recognizing it. We are engaging in this debate because we both believe it is possible to present an argument - which corresponds to reality - which hopefully will change our beliefs for the better.

My final question to my opponent is this: Do you believe, in your worldview, that human thought is reduced to nothing more than biochemical reactions in the brain? If you do, then on what basis can you claim that your conclusions are objectively true - or that mine are objectively false?

Now, I will present my first argument for the existence of God, which is based on the transcendental necessity of the laws of logic:

P1: Fundamental principles of logic, which form our basis of reasoning and rational thought, do exist, are necessary, universal, and immaterial.

P2: These principles cannot be grounded in anything material, or contingent, since that which is material or contingent is not necessary, not universal, and not invariant.

P3: These principles cannot be grounded in our minds alone, because our minds are not necessary, not universal, and not invariant.

P4: The only sufficient ground for these fundamental principles to exist, is if they exist within a mind which is necessary, universal, and immaterial.

P5: God, as traditionally understood in classical theism, is the only being which fits this description.

C1: Therefore, the existence of logical absolutes presupposes the existence of God.

C2: Thus, the very act of reasoning (which uses logic) presupposes God's existence.

Looking forward to your response.

Sir.Lancelot

04.20.2025 04:18AM

Con

Welcome, users.

We are now present on DART's #6080th debate.

Hosting this discussion, linguslerry assumes the role of Pro while his contender Sir.Lancelot takes him on.

The subject addresses the likelihood and probablity of God's existence. The resolution clarifies that God in this context has a very broad definition, and makes it clear that arguing one or two three religious categories is not the topic of the conversation.

Let's see how these two competitors hash out their first round.

-----

Thank you, Pro.

Since my opponent suggests that an evidentialist framework is an essential requirement for atheist vs theist debates, I now wish to call the shots on clarifying the rules for this framework.

The BOP is on Pro.
My position is not that God doesn't exist, or it is more likely that God doesn't exist. My position is that God is not necessary for our universe's existence.
Since Pro is making the argument that God must exist. Must, as defined by Oxford Languages as something logically very likely, means that Pro needs to show that God's existence is obvious according to the very laws of reason.

I wish to comment here that the first round appears to be wasted, as Pro's burden is very heavy to carry here. Rather than supporting his case of God, his first approach is to make multiple unrelated questions to leave room for doubt about the atheist's own critical & reasoning abilities to deflect the burden that really belongs to Pro. As the calculation or reliability of my own senses, and reasoning ability is irrelevant to whether God should or shouldn't exist.

Now here are the reasons Pro raises for arguing his case of God.:

P1: Fundamental principles of logic, which form our basis of reasoning and rational thought, do exist, are necessary, universal, and immaterial.
P2: These principles cannot be grounded in anything material, or contingent, since that which is material or contingent is not necessary, not universal, and not invariant.
P3: These principles cannot be grounded in our minds alone, because our minds are not necessary, not universal, and not invariant.
P4: The only sufficient ground for these fundamental principles to exist, is if they exist within a mind which is necessary, universal, and immaterial.
P5: God, as traditionally understood in classical theism, is the only being which fits this description.
C1: Therefore, the existence of logical absolutes presupposes the existence of God.
C2: Thus, the very act of reasoning (which uses logic) presupposes God's existence.

These are assumptions.

Valid or not, the association that Pro attempts to make between the fallibility of human intellect and God is not a convincing one.

-----

Pro begins the first round by throwing rhetorical questions, designed to weaken the case of the opposing side, followed by a list of principles that he states dictates the laws of logic. Con counters this by declaring most of these questions off-topic and proceeds to poke holes by pointing out that Pro's case relies more on preconceived beliefs than a set of facts.

Round 2

linguslerry

04.20.2025 05:46AM

Pro

Thank you for your response.

It has become evident that my opponent has a fundamental misunderstanding regarding the nature and purpose of the argument I presented. My questions were not “unrelated” as my opponent puts it, and this is because they are not dodging the burden of proof but are instead integral to it. I have offered a transcendental argument for God, which differs from an evidentialist approach because it argues from a paradigmatic level. I am arguing from the very preconditions of intelligibility which are the very foundation of any debate, including this one, and I am completely justified in this because of my belief in a God which satisfies these preconditions. I am asking my opponent for his justification, which he has failed to give.

My opponent has also stated that it is my burden to demonstrate that God’s existence is “obvious according to the very laws of reason”. This is precisely what I have done because I am arguing that God’s existence is the necessary precondition for reason itself.

My opponent should go back, answer my questions, and clarify his position.

With regards to the argument I proposed. P1 is not a controversial claim, it’s something that my opponent and I both presuppose when we engage in debate. If logic were not universal or necessary, then my opponent would have no reason to trust his own reasoning or expect me to follow it. Not only this, but denying logic, with logic, is self-defeating. Thus, P1 holds true, and P2 follows from this.

I would like to clarify for my opponent, that labelling my reasoning as “unconvincing” without offering a counter-explanation is not a refutation, but a dismissal. When my opponent responds, I expect that he will show that either my premises are false, my conclusion does not logically flow from them, or that his worldview can provide a better foundation and justification for the existence of logic.

Sir.Lancelot

04.27.2025 05:46AM

Con

Forfeited

Round 3

linguslerry

05.02.2025 10:31AM

Pro

<skip>

Sir.Lancelot

05.09.2025 10:31AM

Con

Forfeited

Round 4

linguslerry

05.11.2025 11:30PM

Pro

Skip

Sir.Lancelot

05.18.2025 11:30PM

Con

Forfeited

jonrohith

05.26.2025 03:32AM

-->

@whiteflame

@TheRizzler

Sorry for these happenings. I try to improve . Thats all.

David

05.26.2025 02:01AM

-->

@same1234

Vote:@same1234 // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 7 to Pro
>Reason for Decision:
it was pretty good arguments

Reason for Removal: The voter does not justify any of their point allocations, instead merely stating that one side had good arguments” and the other side did not. Each point allocation must be justified with specific examples taken from the debate.
**************************************************

whiteflame

05.25.2025 07:48PM

-->

@Sir.Lancelot

@linguslerry

@jonrohith

>Vote: jonrohith // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 7 to Con
>Reason for Decision:
con's argument is perfect, he is asking for facts, myths are not acceptable.

Reason for Removal: The voter does not justify any of their point allocations, instead merely stating that one side is “perfect” and implying that the other side presents only myths with their argument. Each point allocation must be justified with specific examples taken from the debate.
**************************************************

TheRizzler

05.25.2025 06:56PM

-->

@whiteflame

Please remove jonrohith's vote. It's not even my debate but it pains me to see him make a vote while so obviously having not read the debate at all.

jonrohith

05.27.2025 02:52PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Though con forfeited ,i think that is mutually accepted by both because pro said to skip, i consider this debate as 3 rounds. In starting pro asks questions out of topic and he does not give relation to questions in first round , source are given only con ,he given definition form some web and mentioned it, but i can't accept it as source. conduct of con is visible from first round itself. Legibility is good for both but con's is better. it is not on how long is argument, i consider con's argument is catchy ,detailed and suits topic well. pro doesn't able to argue better in first round.

David

05.26.2025 02:07AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Conduct: This is the easiest point to award. Con forfeited 3/4 rounds.
Arguments: In round 1 Pro brought forth a logically valid argument. If each premise of the syllogism is true then the conclusion logically follows . In reply to the syllogism con states that all of those are merely assumptions and didn't really try and attack any of the truth. claims of those premises. In addition, he answered none of the questions Pro asked.

FishChaser

05.20.2025 01:46PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

It pains me to give arguments to pro because the transcendental argument is very weak and presumptuous. These supposed metaphysical concepts that must come from God may just be abstractions based on the way things behave in the material world. However pro actually gave an argument, and con basically was like "nope you're wrong and all the BoP is on you btw". It's true that pro has more BoP in this debate, but an argument vs a lack thereof is still a loss for con.

Conduct to pro for con forfeiting

fauxlaw

05.19.2025 03:14PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Pro's opening R1 argument carried the weight of the entire debate. It may have been more appropriate to pose the three questions in his opening in the Descrition because they do not contribute to the argument other the n to establish ground rules to set the tone of the debate, having a relatively simple Resolution that does, nevertheless, impose a significant BoP for both sides. This is not a demerit on Pro, for the questions are valid. pro's argument weight rests on the logical syllogism that is the feature of his R1 argument which successfully establishes his ontological argument that God's existence is established on his necessity to exist; a very valid position. The one problem in Pro's argument was the lack of any sourcing to substantiate the logic. Logic, itself, requires some evidence to substantiate it, if for no other reason, because the debate rules of DART require it in a multiple-criteria point system, which was Pro's choice in the set-up.

Con's only argument consists of challenge of the premise of Pro's questions by the following rebuttal: "...to call the shots on clarifying the rules for this framework" which appears to be merely an attempt to re-align the topic of debate, and to claim the BoP rests entirely on Pro, ignoring that the Con position, by the Resolution, must argue that God cannot exist. If the method chosen to accomplish that argument was to forfeit the remaining three rounds as the negating tactic, the argument failed to accomplish its purpose.

Sourcing failure affected both participants.
Legibility goes to Pro for a more succinct argument.
Conduct is as follows: Pro wins the debate by argument. Con loses the debate by forfeit of 75% of the rounds, thus the loss of conduct.

TheRizzler

05.19.2025 01:23PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Pro wins because he met the resolution head‐on: logic, induction, and truth—all necessary for any debate—demand a non‐contingent, universal grounding that only a necessary, immaterial Mind (God) can provide. Con challenged Pro’s format but never offered an alternative foundation for why logical absolutes bind us in a godless universe, nor did he identify any flaw in Pro’s premises. Without a competing account, Pro’s transcendental argument stands unrefuted. In short, Pro showed that denying God’s existence undercuts the very possibility of rational discourse—fulfilling the heavy burden of proof—while Con could only dismiss assumptions without supplying a viable substitute.

Additionally, Con forfeited 75% of the debate.