Instigator / Pro
1587
rating
185
debates
55.95%
won
Topic
#6097
Buddhism vs Christianity
Status
Debating
Waiting for the next argument from the instigator.
Round will be automatically forfeited in:
00
DD
:
00
HH
:
00
MM
:
00
SS
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 9,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- 1,500
Contender / Con
1577
rating
99
debates
59.6%
won
Description
This debate revolves around two syllogisms.:
1. Which is more true? (Historical, scientific, and evidence of the supernatural)
2. Which leads to a more fulfilling life?
Pro argues for buddhism, Con for christianity.
On-balance.
(Only FishChaser can accept.)
Round 1
Definitions:
Buddhism - A religion of eastern and central Asia growing out of the teaching of Siddhārtha Gautama that suffering is inherent in life and that one can be liberated from it by cultivating wisdom, virtue, and concentration.
Christianity - The religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices.
BOP/Framework
This is an “on-balance” discussion that compares the eastern asian religion of Buddhism and the western religion Christianity. I am representing buddhism, Con shall support and defend christianity. Both sides share two goals.:
- Prove their religion leads to a more fulfilling life.
- Provide evidence that their religion is more accurate. Basically whether the buddhist worldview is closer to truth, or whether the christian worldview is more probable. (Evidence can be historical, archeological, scientific, or supernatural.)
If neither side meets their burden, then whoever provides more evidence makes the more compelling case and therefore wins.
Now I shall make two defensive core arguments, and two aggressive.:
The first one is that buddhism offers the solution which is the ultimate goal of life, and the second contention is that the supernatural forces and stories are very plausible.
Third contention is that christianity perpetuates suffering, and my fourth contention is that christianity’s teachings are partly inspired by buddhism.
The Founder
As relevant as it is for us to clash the weight and transgressions of the teachings, so too is it equally important to discuss the founders.
The Father of Buddhism is Siddhartha Guatama. He was the prince and son of a warrior-king, and being born a royal caused him to live a life of pleasure and indulgence. Despite yielding to these desires, Siddhartha was unsatisfied with the current lifestyle he was leading, so this led him to abandon his lifestyle of privilege and travel in search of wisdom.
It was through his experiences that he learned that suffering exists and that suffering is inevitable. But through meditating, he discovered how to free himself from suffering, and so it was that he gave up the responsibilities of his royal duties and renounced his title of prince to become a monk. Siddhartha would continue to spread his teachings to others in India.
The Four Noble Truths
While buddhism doesn’t provide answers to every issue, the four noble truths are among the basic tenets of buddhism. Of which I intend to use this fourth round to explain the basics and fundamentals. These are what they are.:
- Suffering
- Cause of suffering
- End of suffering
- The path that leads to the end of suffering
Buddhism identifies two different kinds of suffering.: Physical and mental.
Aging, sickness, and death are recognized as inevitable, and the pursuit of pleasure is temporary. The first truth is about identifying and acknowledging that there is suffering, the second is about identifying the reason, the third is that recognizing the end of suffering is accomplished through achieving nirvana which is the what, and the fourth is the way in how to achieve nirvana AKA The Eightfold Path.
The Noble Eightfold Path/Karma
The rules for the eightfold path are right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Following this course is thought to yield a positive karmic balance, diverting from it of course would lead to a negative karmic balance. Engaging in neutral karma likewise has no rewards or consequences.
The Cycle of Rebirth
There are six realms that are determined by the karmic balance, which are divided in two categories: Positive and negative.
Positive
- Gods
- Demigods
- Humans
Negative
- Animals
- Ghosts
- Hell
Every religion other than Christianity is either atheist, has hypocrite gods who claim to be benevolent while they watch humans suffer, or has gods that admit they don't care about us. The Christian God makes us suffer sure, but he actually came down and suffered FOR US unlike any other God. The Christian God in doing so proved that he has unconditional, self-sacrificial love and that he was willing to put his money where his mouth is in terms of human suffering.
Buddhism has a system of "karma" but no God that determines what brings good or bad karma. It's kind of weird for reality to be governed by morality when there is no source for that morality and this alone debunks buddhism if it can't be adequately addressed.
The first one is that buddhism offers the solution which is the ultimate goal of life
The end result of Buddhism and Christianity is more or less the same except for a key difference. In essence both are saying "you are born into a world of suffering but if you follow our religion you go to a perfect place with no suffering when you die and if you don't you go to an even worse place". Sure, in Buddhism there are extra worlds between humans and hell but if you do bad enough you still end up in hell. The really important difference though is that Nirvana is a vague, mindless state of bliss and heaven is an actual kingdom where you live a life and don't just float in a state of emptiness. I have trouble getting behind a religion where the ultimate goal is floating all alone in vague, impersonal, nihilistic emptiness instead of one where you experience the infinite greatness of God and live forever in perfect harmony with your brothers and sisters in heaven.
the second contention is that the supernatural forces and stories are very plausible.
There is actual evidence of the supernatural in Christianity, can Buddhists say the same? We have:
1: Shroud of Turin
2: eucharistic miracles
Those are just the main ones. We have the alleged burial cloth of Jesus Christ which no one has been able to prove as a hoax and we have communion wafers that literally start bleeding and growing cardiac tissue which have been confirmed in laboratories.
Third contention is that christianity perpetuates suffering
Christianity has done the complete opposite overall, unless you cherry pick specific instances where INDIVIDUALS did bad things and blame it on Christianity as a whole. Christian churches have done way more good than harm, including more charitable work than any other type of institution in history and literally inventing the modern hospital system.
You could argue that because hell lasts forever in Christianity, it quite literally "perpetuates" suffering in that way sure. Lets face the facts though, there are people who literally deserve to burn forever and don't deserve a second chance. The fact that Buddhism allows Hitler to go to Nirvana eventually is a flaw, not an up side.
my fourth contention is that christianity’s teachings are partly inspired by buddhism
Buddhism plagiarized Hinduism but turned it nihilistic and godless. It didn't evolve out of Hinduism in the same way Christianity evolved from Judaism. Christianity says "Judaism is true and we are the true continuation of it" whereas buddhism is an obvious rip off of a superior religion but claims to be something different and better.
Hinduism has karma (called dharma), it has the same 6 realms and reincarnation, it has a complex concept of God and it has yoga and meditation. Most of what buddhism did was to remove the Gods and the yoga and put more emphasis on meditation, then call it something different.
Hinduism has karma (called dharma), it has the same 6 realms and reincarnation, it has a complex concept of God and it has yoga and meditation. Most of what buddhism did was to remove the Gods and the yoga and put more emphasis on meditation, then call it something different.
Round 2
Rebuttals
Buddhism has a system of "karma" but no God that determines what brings good or bad karma. It's kind of weird for reality to be governed by morality when there is no source for that morality and this alone debunks buddhism if it can't be adequately addressed.
This concept is seen as strange and bizarre to many theists, that require some form of belief in the sentience in morality or judgment. But this perception is a misconception.
The buddhist system karma doesn't rely on the assumption of a deity making a judgment call, as the buddhist universe is mechanical. Meaning that the processes of karma work on autopilot, rather than a judgment of any kind. Think of cause & effect.
Chemical reactions do not require intent or deliberation, the way they function is beyond any sentient control. And karma operates the same way. Actions and feelings yield certain outcomes, and humans as biological creatures are neurologically wired to crave & seek out positive karma. It is how our spirits are programmed.
The end result of Buddhism and Christianity is more or less the same except for a key difference. In essence both are saying "you are born into a world of suffering but if you follow our religion you go to a perfect place with no suffering when you die and if you don't you go to an even worse place". Sure, in Buddhism there are extra worlds between humans and hell but if you do bad enough you still end up in hell. The really important difference though is that Nirvana is a vague, mindless state of bliss and heaven is an actual kingdom where you live a life and don't just float in a state of emptiness. I have trouble getting behind a religion where the ultimate goal is floating all alone in vague, impersonal, nihilistic emptiness instead of one where you experience the infinite greatness of God and live forever in perfect harmony with your brothers and sisters in heaven.
Heaven is cosmic bliss, which is still an existential horror in a way.
All beings are stripped of misery, and the ability to think critically. They are cursed with the feeling of eternal ecstasy and what makes it worse is that the brothers, sisters they loved on earth and were forced to leave behind most likely did not make it because they were atheist or a different religion. The fate of them burning perpetually never once crosses the minds of those in heaven. You are forced to turn a blind eye to their suffering, forever. And the worst part is there is nothing you can do about it.
If Con uses that criteria to define one as nihilistic, the same principle must apply to the other version.
There is actual evidence of the supernatural in Christianity, can Buddhists say the same? We have:1: Shroud of Turin2: eucharistic miraclesThose are just the main ones. We have the alleged burial cloth of Jesus Christ which no one has been able to prove as a hoax and we have communion wafers that literally start bleeding and growing cardiac tissue which have been confirmed in laboratories.
The authenticity regarding the Shroud of Turin is much in doubt. While speculation and debate gives it room for discussion, the professional opinion of the scientific community is that its true origin is from the medieval era rather than the time of Jesus, making it a forgery.
Eucharistic miracles are legends that started from rumors, but even christian scientists are urging believers against the claim that this evidence is reliable.
There are likewise legends about the Guatama Buddha's own stories which include miracle healings, teleportation, self-cloning, elemental control, and other supernatural powers.
Christianity has done the complete opposite overall, unless you cherry pick specific instances where INDIVIDUALS did bad things and blame it on Christianity as a whole. Christian churches have done way more good than harm, including more charitable work than any other type of institution in history and literally inventing the modern hospital system.
I concede this point, but the quantity of total contributions by one organization versus the other falls outside the scope of this debate.
The specific focus is individualistic, in which lifestyle is more beneficial for the person making the choice.
Emphasis on meditation that treats it as a priority leads to emotional fulfillment. As we can observe that practitioners of meditation are usually free from stress, sickness, and things that threaten their peace of mind. This remains true for meditators even in circumstances that aren't ideal.
You could argue that because hell lasts forever in Christianity, it quite literally "perpetuates" suffering in that way sure. Lets face the facts though, there are people who literally deserve to burn forever and don't deserve a second chance. The fact that Buddhism allows Hitler to go to Nirvana eventually is a flaw, not an up side.
This perceived-flaw also exists in christianity.
Christians do not know that Hitler went to hell. If he asked for forgiveness in his final moments, he would be accepted into heaven without condition. Not all brothers and sisters who lead a life as good people on earth may not make it to heaven if they didn't accept Jesus in their hearts, but Hitler most certainly could have.
The buddhist perception of morality and lifestyle assumes that all humans were murderers or barbarians in a past life, just as morally depraved as Hitler. Such bad karma would cause them to be reborn into the lower levels. There are even stories of The Buddha killing people in war, as an act of defending his people. When he died, he went to Hell.
Buddhism plagiarized Hinduism but turned it nihilistic and godless. It didn't evolve out of Hinduism in the same way Christianity evolved from Judaism. Christianity says "Judaism is true and we are the true continuation of it" whereas buddhism is an obvious rip off of a superior religion but claims to be something different and better.Hinduism has karma (called dharma), it has the same 6 realms and reincarnation, it has a complex concept of God and it has yoga and meditation. Most of what buddhism did was to remove the Gods and the yoga and put more emphasis on meditation, then call it something different.
Buddhism preaches tolerance and would never make such claims of being superior to any religion, as that would be proselytism.
Proselytism is a violation of the core principles of buddhism.
There is a western consensus that buddhism is a nontheistic religion, and while that may for a lot of buddhists. There are different schools and branches which do have their own gods/goddesses. There is just no supreme gods/goddesses.
Some of the popular deities include.: Maitreya, Vairocana, and Akshobya.
In general, buddhism isn't there as an alternative or substitute to hinduism. There are many hindus who are also buddhist, making buddhism an extension of their beliefs. "Keep your gods, but follow these practices and see if they work."
Chemical reactions do not require intent or deliberation, the way they function is beyond any sentient control. And karma operates the same way. Actions and feelings yield certain outcomes, and humans as biological creatures are neurologically wired to crave & seek out positive karma. It is how our spirits are programmed.
Why would the universe be rigged to respond to our actions on a moral basis and punish or reward us for good behavior by chance? Humans can have a moral compass because we are sentient beings that exist in interpersonal contexts. Karma can't merely be a natural result of that, it is akin to the universe awarding us good behavior points or bad ones based on our actions and setting up specific planes of existence to send us to based on our morality. Since cause and effect doesn't have a moral compass, it is unlikely to conveniently set up a system like this on it's own.
All beings are stripped of misery, and the ability to think critically. They are cursed with the feeling of eternal ecstasy and what makes it worse is that the brothers, sisters they loved on earth and were forced to leave behind most likely did not make it because they were atheist or a different religion. The fate of them burning perpetually never once crosses the minds of those in heaven. You are forced to turn a blind eye to their suffering, forever. And the worst part is there is nothing you can do about it.
This is a mix of truth, gaslighting and strawmanning so lets unpack this point by point.
"all beings are stripped of misery" yes, sounds good so far
"and the ability to think critically" this is conjecture, no one ever said God would stop you from reasoning in heaven
"They are cursed with the feeling of eternal ecstasy" it's weird that you expect the person reading this to accept something that sounds completely good as a "curse" at face value
"brothers, sisters they loved on earth and were forced to leave behind most likely did not make it because they were atheist or a different religion" if you accept Christianity as true it is implicit that you agree with God's judgement and anyone who went to hell deserved to be there
"You are forced to turn a blind eye to their suffering" again you already agreed with God's decision, you are not forced because you consent and agree to trust God's judgement
the professional opinion of the scientific community is that its true origin is from the medieval era rather than the time of Jesus, making it a forgery.
The actual consensus is that no one knows, and the methodology used to date it to the middle ages is notoriously flawed. The fact of the matter is that there is no real proof that it is a hoax, it holds up to forensic analysis and the image is burned into the cloth in such a way that no proposed method of forgery has been able to reproduce. The article you linked as a source refers to the 100% invalid carbon dating that dated new cloth from the edges of the shroud that were added to repair it after it caught on fire and an X-ray dating technique that supports my case but is also flawed. It doesn't mention any new study that supports your case at all and the false advertising of the headline suggests your source is untrustworthy.
Eucharistic miracles are legends that started from rumors, but even christian scientists are urging believers against the claim that this evidence is reliable.
On multiple occasions they have been tested in labs, and found to have living human cardiac tissue "interwoven" into the bread in a way that defies any conceivable hoaxing method.
I concede this point, but the quantity of total contributions by one organization versus the other falls outside the scope of this debateThe specific focus is individualistic, in which lifestyle is more beneficial for the person making the choice.
This debate revolves around two syllogisms.:
1. Which is more true? (Historical, scientific, and evidence of the supernatural)
2. Which leads to a more fulfilling life?
Pro argues for buddhism, Con for christianity.
On-balance.
This is the debate description you gave, you are now backpedaling and ignoring that this relates to the first syllogism as well as the second one. The Christian churches have "led to a more fulfilling life" for many individuals as they have provided food, clothing, shelter, education, medical treatment, and hope of salvation to countless people. Meditation has benefits but will it save your soul? Will it feed the poor and starving? Will it build civilizations?
Christianity having a greater impact on the world than any other religion isn't just an isolated fact, it adds credibility to it as the true religion and thus relates to the first syllogism. It stands out as having the greatest impact, thus it stands out as being the greatest religion.
Christians do not know that Hitler went to hell. If he asked for forgiveness in his final moments, he would be accepted into heaven without condition.
This is a ridiculous blanket statement about Christian soteriology (i.e the science of how one is saved). Soteriology varies widely between Christian groups and you are assuming all Christians adhere to an extreme version of the protestant "sola fide" (faith alone) concept.
If Catholicism is true for example you can't just go through your whole life committing severe mortal sins and then ask for forgiveness on your death bed. Hitler would have had to confess it all and live for many, repentance-filled years as a devout catholic to make up for it.
Proselytism is a violation of the core principles of buddhism.
If you choose Buddhism over other religions you implicitly thought Buddhism was a better/more correct path.
There are different schools and branches which do have their own gods/goddesses. There is just no supreme gods/goddesses.
Did these deities set up the karma/realm system that requires a morally driven creator to exist? Are they just made up or copy/pasted in from local folk religions separate from Buddhism?
From your own source:
An important first question to ask is if there even are any Buddhist gods.
If you asked “the Buddha” himself, he would likely say “no.”
This is twice I have used pro's own sources against him, so I implore voters to recognize his sources as mine now and award me the vote in sources. I have commandeered his sources like a true source-pirate.
In general, buddhism isn't there as an alternative or substitute to hinduism. There are many hindus who are also buddhist, making buddhism an extension of their beliefs.
What is REAL Buddhism though? Is it up to Buddha what that is, or is it up to every random sect and minority group who identify as Buddhist? Your own source said he likely didn't recognize any gods.
Round 3
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I can make any modifications if the description is incomplete