Instigator / Pro
7
1585
rating
22
debates
70.45%
won
Topic
#6163
TRILOGY ONLY In the Matrix, Agent Smith is closer to being the One than Neo is.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
AdaptableRatman
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 16,800
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- 1,501
Contender / Con
4
1561
rating
205
debates
54.63%
won
Description
Burden of Proof equal Con has to prove Neo was the One more than Agent Smith.
No wiki page that specifically defines the One as Neo is permitted. No source that belieces the Oracle told the full truth is permitted.
For Agent Smith to be closer to beinh the One it is required that the Oracle either lied or was proframmed fooled. Either way, the One was a concept and Zion was not the real world, it was another level of the Matrix.
In this debate, Con MUST prove the direct opposite to what Pro does; that Neo was closer to being the One than Agent Smith.
The One is supposed to be the person within the Matrix that frees humanity from the tyranny of the machines and even helps destroy the machines.
I am going to prove that firstly there was not just the One necessarily but that if there was it is far more Agent Smith than Neo. Neo may even be an implant from the true Machines, not the Zion level that feared Agent Smith more as well as worried about Neo.
You do not have to have seen the Matrix Trilogy to believe this. The fourth movie with the woman being the One is not really relevant to this. This is about Trilogy only. Only the first 3 movies are part of this debate.
Round 1
Pro
#1
I do not care that the creators said Neo is the One.
Neo never fulfilled the One's mission and the Washowski brothers are now sisters both trans.
There are obvious references to Judeo-Christian concepts of Zion and Trinity (one character but Morpheus, she and Neo end up being 3), and if that all is true, the Architect maybe is God, the Oracle is... Who knows? And Agents would be Angels, implying Agent Smith is the devil.
The problem is not only that Judaism lacks a devil, but there seem to be huge hints that the heretical take of Gnosticism inspired the series far more as did loose panentheism, especially Buddhist.
====
Where did I get the ideas for this topic?
My opponent will quickly find this video, but my ideas are not solely what is in there. That video is how to see Agent Smith (AS) as the One.
This other video and others like those 2 are aids you can find in your own time. I have formed my own theory that evolved beyond one particular video, in my opinion.
I actually think the very nature of the One from the Oracle was lied about. I do not think it was solely AS. I think it was a cataclysmic event that the Oracle and the Architect knew about. I think Zion is not the real world and that there is a lawyer outside the original god of that reality exists, and the Oracle and the Architect plotted to sabotage their own Matrix and reset it because they were not truly the god of the machines and needed a way to destroy it.
I think Oracle knew her son/direct-creation AS (who called her Mom at one point) is a suoer key ingredient to cause the One event and that Neo was another. She knew she was lying the entire time to Neo and Morpheus but saw a secret way that Neo colloding with AS would lead to AS making the cataclysm happen that destroys the machines or at least forces a full reset, frees the humans and thus achieves the prophecy of The One.
====
The philosophy of Matrix was a fusion of Gnosticism and Panentheism.
The reason the Movie may seem loosely Christian is it had many Gnostic elements. Gnosticism is a severely heretical take that thinks Judas was the best Apostle and that Jesus had ti ve freed of his physical body to be fully unleashed. They see enlightenment very akin to the mission of breaking free of the Matrix but Agent Smith's method of eradicating all bit by bit was akin to how psychotic that Gnosticism taken to its extreme can become.
The issue is there was also Buddhism involved or Hinduism. That is why Morpheus has the shaven head. That is why they dress in some ways Catholic yet at other times akin to Buddhist Shaolin monks. The panentheism concept is a oneness one. Oneness and panentheism are really the same concept; to believers, God is in all of us because we are all within the God.
The reason you need to grasp that Matrix was both of these philsoophies fused is that you may assume where Neo is the One, Agent Smith (AS) is the Many, that ignores abstract takes possible.
If everything is 1 within the original creation (even outside the Zion) and/or a demon created it all to have the Matrix rather than the OG god itself, it means what AS was actually doing was being 1. He was simply tweaking all others to be him, instead of 'destroying' them.
This is extremely central to my argument. It is not me making something up to have a weird link to AS. I genuinely see AS as the singularly most enlightened of all characters inside the Matrix as it goes along. He is actually correct from his own perspective. Him seeing humans as a virus infecting the Matrix makes complete sense if you were him.
His mission seems to alter. At first he sides with the Matrix blindly and resents humans, but as he evolves due to resurrections that primarily Neo enables and also enables the alterations of, his mission becomes to destroy the Matrix itself too, sort of (he does not himself realise he wants that, but he does; his actions begin to lead to him being the single greatest threat the Matrix ever had, so much so it spares Neo to let him help it stop AS rather than destroy Neo).
===
Agent Smith looks like a pure villain because you think of the Matrix as the real people.
If you think of the Matrix at face level, AS seems like a pure villain. I shall argue that he is eeither antivillain or a straight up antihero that takes a lot of deep thought to realise.
Morpheus, Trinity (ironic name really, Gnosticism nod) and Neo are trying to be a triune One despite thinking Neo is the One. They think they are enlightenes because the Oracle feeds them specific information (especially Morpheus) that leads to them unwittingly help the Matrix maintain itself.
If you watch far enough, there was originally a paradise in the Matrix but the 'Zion' officials.
AS was there from the very start. He birthed with the Matrix... Neo is alive in the 6th. The One was prophecised to be born inside the Matrix. Neo is a human. Now, if I am correct about the Zion realm still not being real and that the 'real world' the Architect is in is still Matrix (which is how Neo had powers there still) then it means maybe Neo was born in the Matrix. However, Con is more likely to affirm that it was simpler. Con will probably say Neo was the One and that the Architect was in the Real World. If that is true, then Neo was not born in the Matrix. He was born outside it and was simulated into it. AS, in contrast, was born in the Matrix. He was a direct creation of the Oracle and Architect, her his mother and was there from the first Matrix iteration, given the fact he references it when the agents interrogate Morpheus.
However that is not all to him.
In the same interview, he shows more of his new gained free will that Neo glitched into him from their earlier fight:
This scene is extremely vital, a lot more so than almost any other scene in the entire Trilogy, if you want to fully grasp my take of the entire Matrix and what AS was to it.
AS was the antihero Gnostic. He did not realise it during that scene yet but he did not solely want to rid Humans of the bodies they were trapped in, he wanted to destroy the Matrix itself. That becomes clearer later.
Even if he did not know it, he ends up causing the ending of the amchines as we knew them forcing a reboot, whereas Neo was more of a catalyst even then.
====
Neo as Catalyst, AS as Reactant
The issue the Con side is likely to raise is that I cannot deny that Neo was key even to AS becoming what he became. However, I do not deny it. Neo was a major catalyst. In fact, Morpheus and Trinity also were reactants.
It is akin to a chemistry experiment. You take AS, Morph and Trin and mix in Neo, et voila, the prophecy of the One comes true.
The issue is, who was more the One, Neo or AS?
Without Neo, AS needs to wait for a Neo-like entity that triggers his rebellion. Without AS, Neo is helpless even with Morpheus and Trinity. They were nowhere near actually being a threat to the machines.
If you follow the actions of Neo, they did not match the prophecy of the One. Even if they did, it was a lie.
I need to remind you the Oracle intentionally lied and tweaked the prophecy:
Morpheus learns of the Prophecy early in his life from a mysterious woman known as the Oracle, who in reality is a program. Morpheus becomes consumed in his quest to find The One, leaving his lover Niobe to seek other company, and confusing and confounding some Zion officials and hovercraft operatives who do not share his belief in the Prophecy.Actually, the Prophecy is an invention of the machines, told to Zion operatives by the Oracle; the Prophecy is designed to manipulate the humans into leading The One to meet the Architect and not the Source itself. The One learns the truth and is forced into reloading the Matrix under the consequence that the Matrix will crash and all of humanity will die if The One does not comply.
In the description I banned the source proving Neo is the One automatucally, I didn't ban myself disproving it as valid with the same source. I need this revealed so you understand, the lie is the Oracle's not me randomly saying she lied.
====
So, if the One was a lie, what was the actual One and how does Gnosticism or Buddhism tie into it?
The exact origin(s) of this school of thought cannot be traced, although it is possible to locate influences or sources as far back as the second and first centuries BCE, such as the early treatises of the Corpus Hermeticum, the Jewish Apocalyptic writings, and especially Platonic philosophy and the Hebrew Scriptures themselves.In spite of the diverse nature of the various Gnostic sects and teachers, certain fundamental elements serve to bind these groups together under the loose heading of “Gnosticism” or “Gnosis.” Chief among these elements is a certain manner of “anti-cosmic world rejection” that has often been mistaken for mere dualism. According to the Gnostics, this world, the material cosmos, is the result of a primordial error on the part of a supra-cosmic, supremely divine being, usually called Sophia (Wisdom) or simply the Logos. This being is described as the final emanation of a divine hierarchy, called the Plêrôma or “Fullness,” at the head of which resides the supreme God, the One beyond Being. The error of Sophia, which is usually identified as a reckless desire to know the transcendent God, leads to the hypostatization of her desire in the form of a semi-divine and essentially ignorant creature known as the Demiurge (Greek: dêmiourgos, “craftsman”), or Ialdabaoth, who is responsible for the formation of the material cosmos. This act of craftsmanship is actually an imitation of the realm of the Pleroma, but the Demiurge is ignorant of this, and hubristically declares himself the only existing God. At this point, the Gnostic revisionary critique of the Hebrew Scriptures begins, as well as the general rejection of this world as a product of error and ignorance, and the positing of a higher world, to which the human soul will eventually return. However, when all is said and done, one finds that the error of Sophia and the begetting of the inferior cosmos are occurrences that follow a certain law of necessity, and that the so-called “dualism” of the divine and the earthly is really a reflection and expression of the defining tension that constitutes the being of humanity—the human being.
In this case, Sophia would be the make Architect(Arc) and the Oracle(O) would be a sort of sidekick. The issue is I actually think it goes beyond the Arc.
I do not think it is Gnosticism exactly. I think the Arc is trying to devise systems, with assistance from the O which may well be the first human he coded up, to work together to force such a severe glitch that they themselves meaning tbose in Zion and the 'real world' real. Of the Matrix can themselves break free of it to the real-real realm. It is not crazy to think they're playing a very very long con given this conversation:
Skip to 2:03 (I am on phone and cannot make it skip with URL)
This clearly isn't the full end even if the much later sequel to the trilogy didn't exist. This is tenporary peace. Follow the dialogue and read between the lines. This is all one super duper long con. Far longer and deeper than the average viewer perceived the entire trilogy.
AS helped achieve this far mors than Neo, Morpheus or Trinity did. He was by far the most severely essential ingredient.
The Red Pill was actually just another illusion Pill. Yet it helped trigger events that helped AS unleash.
====
The final speech AS gives Neo proves AS's entire Character Progression was from slave to enlightened rebel (in his own eyes at least). In contrast, Neo's is from slave to Matrix to slave of the whatever the 'face' formed with Machines is that got blindsided since it agreed to work with Neo to destroy AS then got fried by Neo being defeated and turning into AS.
Listen to this speech
Even if AS doesn't realise it, he is on a freedom quest. He thinks he isn't because he assumes his goal is to destroy humans.
It is actions that define the One not motive.
The One born inside the Matrix (AS not Neo)
That fundamentally changes the Matrix (AS not Neo)
And leads to its eventual destruction, freeing humans (AS via Neo with also Morpheus and Trinity unwittingly assisting).
Neo leads to upgrades in AS. AS gets more free will each iteration and more power too due to it (in Matrix reality, believing you can get something or wanting something bad enough leads to achieving it).
====
The Panentheist Oneness concept
I paste the following from Google AI responding to a search I made:
This source backs it up somewhat: wikipedia.org
AS as the One works in an abstract way. He was removing ego from everyone else and uniting all as one (himself). This means his actual way of being the One makes far more philosophical sense than Neo's. Neo stayed individualistic and trapped in the mentality that others were really separate from him and real. Even when he thought he was freed from the Matrix, he wasn't yet, repeatedly. AS, in contrast, began deluded like Neo but evolves each iteration more certain of the oneness goal and capable of achieving it.
Con
#2
Thanks Adaptable for an interesting resolution and great first round! The Matrix is one of my favorite series that I rewatch and analyze constantly!
I look forward to a great debate. Alright, let’s get started.:
There are certain challenges in the rules that I agreed to. So the counter-case I make as Con will therefore have to be an aggressive deep-dive which goes in-depth with its critical & analytical breakdown of Pro’s own case.
Pro’s side is so scattershot that if it weren’t for these stipulations in the description, his whole case would fall apart. He makes several claims, which indirectly contradict the resolution.
Pro’s side is so scattershot that if it weren’t for these stipulations in the description, his whole case would fall apart. He makes several claims, which indirectly contradict the resolution.
I will dissect Pro’s side by pointing out the following.:
- His round 1 is a convoluted gish-gallop mess of rambling, assumptions, and massive leaps with very weak associations to connect the dots.
- The resolution attempts to stop Con by limiting their ability to source the canon material of The One because then Pro would be unable to yap gibberish.
- Pro says he doesn’t care what the original creators say about The One, which is irrelevant because they are the ultimate authority and have the final say about the universe as a whole. Pointing out their gender is fundamentally irrelevant to the movie.
- Pro is implying we need to reject the status quo criteria for The One, but if that’s the case. Then he needs to better establish his rules and standards for The One. Citing a variety of philosophies and religions like buddhism and hinduism makes no difference if Pro diverts from the tropes and rules of The Matrix universe. Not what they took inspiration from. Pro’s case is self-refuting on the basis that the resolution assumes that The One is not a fictitious concept, but then Pro diverges from this by arguing that The One may not actually be real.
Rephrasing The Resolution
Do I really have to come right out and say it? Because I was wondering when we were getting around to this.
Pro is attempting to define his own arbitrary criteria of “The One” and establishing it as superior to the canon. But the problem is that this criteria is very vague and loosely connected between different belief systems and the justification is weak.
There is no Agent Smith or Neo are closer to being The One. Either one of them is The One or either of them aren’t. I believe Pro means to say, “Agent Smith is more likely The One than Neo is.”
To which I say, the lore makes it crystal-clear that Neo is The One and it establishes this all throughout the trilogy franchise for several reasons.:
- The trilogy makes it clear that The One isn’t chosen but that a person becomes The One through a certain course of actions. Neo became The One through his choices.
- Neo has powers beyond the matrix, while Agent Smith’s powers remain limited to only the matrix. (Remember that Neo is able to affect the matrix on a superior/significant level, able to rewrite the code or control the entire system itself, which is consistent with the abilities of The One)
- Trinity was prophesied to fall in love with “The One.” She falls in love with Neo, never Agent Smith.
- Neo’s name is literally an obvious and intentional anagram of the word “one.”
The Heir and Successor
The One isn’t as simple as The Chosen One movie trope or like a holy prophecy of the messiah, even if there are some elements to it. The One is more like a Dread Pirate Roberts tale where in The Princess Bride, Westley inherited the title of The Dread Pirate Roberts from Ryan and he inherited the title from another Dread Pirate Roberts who wasn’t the original Dread Pirate Roberts. Dread Pirate Roberts | Villains Wiki | Fandom
The cycle continues. Neo inherited the title of The One because of his actions, but he wasn’t the first One.
- During Neo’s first encounter with The Oracle, she tells him he has the gift, but he might be waiting for something before it can manifest. When he questions what exactly he’s waiting for, she says: “Your next life, maybe. Who knows. That's the way things go.”
- In The Matrix Reloaded, before sending his goons after Neo, The Merovingian says: “Your predecessors had much more respect.”
- Before escaping, he also adds: “I have survived your predecessors, and I will survive you!”
Rebuttal
AS was there from the very start. He birthed with the Matrix... Neo is alive in the 6th. The One was prophecised to be born inside the Matrix. Neo is a human
That is a very common and predictable take, but the misunderstanding is in applying the interpretation so literally. When Neo dies and revived in The Matrix, he does technically fulfill the prophecy of The One through a loophole. His rebirth in The Matrix, in which he returns to life after being killed by Agent Smith. Neo gains access to powers beyond your imagination, thus fulfilling his true destiny as The One.
“Neo's true nature as The One manifests after he is shot and apparently killed by Agent Smith while trying to escape the Matrix after rescuing Morpheus from interrogation by the Agents.” 1
Round 2
Pro
#3
Regarding Watchowski's being trans, that was not the issue.
I apologise for how the comment came across. I was trying to say, they cannot possibly be devout Jews or Christians or likely to be coming from that perspective given that they are both Trans.
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.
That is old testament and back then referred to biological sex assigned gender, not transitions so 'man' and 'woman' clearly meant biologically cis ones.
I don't feel that Con is being fair to me in how he speaks to me and asks voters to consider this in their Conduct allocation.
I am aware the mainstream idea is that Neo is the One. I am making it absolutely fair for a debate by banning Con going 'X says so I win gotcha'. The reality is if you read the description and comments section, Con came into it saying he was excited to engage. I even made sure he was not going to forfeit and he replied he was looking forward to the debate.
The he abusively says I am gish galloping, rambling, yapping gibberish etc. I am making a case for Agent Smith being Neo that took a lot of mental effort and typing to present. If Con is upset at how many angles there are and how all-encompassing my case is, then he can hurl his insults and accusations all he wants. I do not care. If I wanted to gish-gallop, I wouldn't make it 4 Rounds or leave my opponent with 16k characters to construct rebuttals alongside constructive. I outright deny I did anything wrong and am not at all appreciative of how he spoke about me..l
====
It matters what philosophy the entire Matrix is based upon, in order to analyse this topic.
Con seems very unhappy with me exploring angles beyond the obvious. He tells you to reject my idea because it apparently is irrelevant. The fact he thinks it is irrelevant and sheer rage he seems to have at me explaining it is due to him needing it to be false for his case to hold true.
Let me explain exactly what I mean here so it doesn't sound like yapping gibberish at all but a very clear philosophical dispute that leads to a fundamentally different outlook where Agent Smith is closer to being the One than Neo is.
The trilogy makes it clear that The One isn’t chosen but that a person becomes The One through a certain course of actions. Neo became The One through his choices.
I sort of agree with the first sentence. The Oracle is a liar when she implies Neo is a special chosen one. The real underlying prophecy is that the glitch that leads to the One must culminate from an unintended origin point, it must be an authentic glitch in the Matrix.
Both AS and Neo are arguably glitched. However, let us see who was less chosen than the other and who actually acted more like the One.
Neo is approached directly by Morpheus to recruit him. He is offered 2 pills and once taking the Red very little is actually of his own choosing. His actions do not change anything fundamental about the Matrix and the Matrix itself seeks him out desperately begging him to save it from AS.
In contrast, AS was not remotely specially chosen. If he was, it was a hidden secret that only the Architect and Oracle knew and neither side can fully claim it. He actually gets glitched and hyper powered by how unchosen by others he is. The agents don't choose him at all, his enemies in Neo, Morph and Trin and their crew don't choose him at all. He is unchosen and through his actions begins to utterly terrify the Matrix to the core and bring it to its knees. Neo if anything works towards helping the Machines. Had the implosion or whatever not happened when he turned into AS, Neo would have secured the machines a severe victory over the one who could have freed all from them. In the end Neo was a catalyst or at best another reactant but AS was the key, most significant One to bring about the cataclysmic event that freed humans from the machines.
====
Neo has powers beyond the matrix, while Agent Smith’s powers remain limited to only the matrix. (Remember that Neo is able to affect the matrix on a superior/significant level, able to rewrite the code or control the entire system itself, which is consistent with the abilities of The One)
This is false. I already stated that I firmly deny that Zion or the place dubbed 'real world' is outside the Matrix. I think the red pill is a hoax and that it is merely another level/layer of Matrix. I also do not know what you mean by the fact thst AS isn't changing the Matrix fundamentally.
I paste from Google AI which used various sources:
Here's how Agent Smith's actions fundamentally impacted the Matrix:
Again, it is plausible the Oracle and Architect were manipulating Smith. However, that needs to be proven. Even if they were, he was granted abilities far beyond any other entity except the Architect or Oracle. He literally recoded others as himself and spread as a virus but moe specifically a worm.
Let us see what a computer worm is.A computer worm is a type of malware whose primary function is to self-replicate and infect other computers while remaining active on infected systems.A computer worm duplicates itself to spread to uninfected computers. It often does this by exploiting parts of an operating system that are automatic and invisible to the user.Typically, a user only notices a worm when its uncontrolled replication consumes system resources and slows or halts other tasks. A computer worm is not to be confused with WORM, or write once, read many.How do computer worms work?Computer worms often rely on vulnerabilities in networking protocols, such as File Transfer Protocol, to propagate.After a computer worm loads and begins running on a newly infected system, it will typically follow its prime directive: to remain active on an infected system for as long as possible and spread to as many other vulnerable systems as possible.
So when Pro tells us Neo changed the Matrix at a fundamental level and AS didn't, he is misinformed. Neo was akin to a blatant glitch that was contained and ended up working with the system to protect it. AS was a true unrelenting threat to the system changing it as a worm does a computer.
====
Trinity was prophesied to fall in love with “The One.” She falls in love with Neo, never Agent Smith. Neo’s name is literally an obvious and intentional anagram of the word “one.”
The Oracle was a liar working an ulterior plan with the Architect.
This is proven in many ways including that Smith called her mom.
Skip to around 41 seconds here: https://youtube.com/shorts/fWDoZCFpT_Y?si=C5CaXkfQP1ATEjGC
Also remember what I showed in Round 1:
Skip to 2:03
The Oracle and Architect were playing a very, very long con.
In the description of this debate it states:
No wiki page that specifically defines the One as Neo is permitted. No source that believes the Oracle told the full truth is permitted.For Agent Smith to be closer to beinh the One it is required that the Oracle either lied or was programmed fooled. Either way, the One was a concept and Zion was not the real world, it was another level of the Matrix.
Con agreed to this on accepting. Yet, Con is trying to do this himself rather than link to sources.
As for Neo's name. His name was Thomas Anderson, he chose a hacker name of Neo. If you were planning ahead in the shoes of Oracle and Architect, you would either write the code such that he'd choose that name or notice it and make it fit. From the perspective of Morpheus and Trinity, you would have confirmation bias. If Neo is the One is Trinity 3 people?
What if the One is actually about Oneness. Agent Smith turning all into him represents 1. It is akin to making all numbers in a series change to 1.
Neo half rhymes with Zero. Neo also has 'no' in the letters.
Maybe Neo not being spelled One is a clue... He is not the One but indirectly is significant to the One.
====
The One isn’t as simple as The Chosen One movie trope or like a holy prophecy of the messiah, even if there are some elements to it.
Pro agrees wholeheartedly. So it doesn't matter that they keep saying Neo is the One. All that matters is who actually mattered and did more towards destroying the machines and freeing all from them and that was AS.
====
His rebirth in The Matrix, in which he returns to life after being killed by Agent Smith. Neo gains access to powers beyond your imagination, thus fulfilling his true destiny as The One.
Whose rebirth?
AS also has rebirths. In fact the first of his rebirths coincides with Neo's right?
Neo actually massively empowered AS with the first rebirth and granted him free will.
====
I think I was wrong about that being the final speech I think it was prior to it but these 2 speeches from Round 1 back me up massively to AS as antihero One:
That second clip explains just how accurate it is to see the Matrix as Gnosticism. AS is maybe not fully enlightened but his mission is indirectly aligned with freeing humans from the same trap he finds himself in. He sees it as a Zoo, a false reality. The Matrix actually is a false reality. AS is right. He does so much towards freeing them of the trap of that realm, probably more than any other entity ever had done prior. Yet he is seen as a villain because of a faulty lens of seeing the Matrix as reality.
AS is freeing humans from the illusions and traps the Machines set upon them. It is blatant in the latest stages he even wants to destroy the machines too. He goes from agent blindly serving the Machines to apex rebel so terrifying that the machines had to beg Neo to save them from AS.
Even with Neo protecting them from AS, AS still destroys the machines at least symbolically via forced reboot and making temporary peace.
Neo was a catalyst. At best he was a fellow reactant. AS was the singularly most important part of the equation of what was the One's destiny. He lived closest to it. Nothing about the One's destiny said he had to think in a blatantly benevolent manner.
====
If anyone is wanting a cheap win and to alter parameters to rig it for side, it is Con
Con opens with accusing me of a cheap win attempt by the restraints I put in place.
Con then proceeds to base his entire case on the fact it is Lore. He wants a truism:
Lore says it is so autowin.
This is not debating at all. He wants completely uneven playing field and is twisting this all to make me seem like a villain.
Con
#4
Thanks again, Pro, for a great Round 2!
I apologize to Pro and voters if my Round 1 came off too harsh. That wasn’t how I intended it to sound. This round I’ll focus on defending the status quo, my use of sources, and give rebuttals.
The One
If we wish to know who The One is, then it makes sense to observe the facts and unravel the vision of the movies based on how the original creators intended it. Pro is essentially making the case that his opinion and interpretation is superior and should replace the writers’ vision. If he is to succeed at this, he is required to give a reasonable explanation or justification.
Pro concedes that what makes The One is through their actions alone rather than being chosen and his criteria is.:
All that matters is who actually mattered and did more towards destroying the machines and freeing all from them and that was AS.
This is a little too over-simplified and intentionally ignores crucial details of the prophecy.
One of the subtle ones is that The One is an outsider, as per the last sentence of the prophecy, “Once The One enters The Source, he will have the power to destroy the Matrix.” The Prophecy | Matrix Wiki | Fandom
Agent Smith being born from within the system is automatically disqualified from being The One.
The other details are The One will have powers beyond the Matrix, and Trinity is destined to fall in love with The One.
Pro responds to this by saying,
“The Oracle was a liar working an ulterior plan with the Architect.This is proven in many ways including that Smith called her mom.”
Proving The Oracle is a liar doesn’t prove she is lying about this.
Liars have been known to manipulate by occasionally telling the truth. Therefore, saying The Oracle is a liar doesn’t mean that the prophecy of Trinity falling for The One or The One’s abilities is necessarily a lie. So unless Pro can prove this prophecy was false, then it shall remain for now.
As for the resolution in the description.:
No wiki page that specifically defines the One as Neo is permitted. No source that belieces the Oracle told the full truth is permitted.
My use of the sources does not violate the parameters of the rules. I am not using the wiki pages to establish and declare Neo the one, nor am I using the evidence to declare all of The Oracle’s words as absolute fact. But as this is on-balance. If The Oracle does lie, then Pro is required as much to prove that the statement is false.
I am merely using information from available Matrix sources to support and bolster my case. If this is unallowed, then you might as well prevent the Con position from using any piece of evidence.
There are two other reasons why believing Agent Smith is The One is an exaggeration.
The fundamental reason is it is illogical that the hypothetical savior of humanity would be an Agent that serves the very same system it is meant to destroy. This assumption is paradoxical.
The second reason is that Morpheus has a talent for identifying potential One’s. And the simple fact that he has chosen a total of six candidates, with five failing but one succeeding demonstrates another obvious fact. Morpheus never saw Agent Smith as a potential candidate for The One. This raises too much room for doubt at the resolution in significant ways.
Rebuttals
In contrast, AS was not remotely specially chosen. If he was, it was a hidden secret that only the Architect and Oracle knew and neither side can fully claim it. He actually gets glitched and hyper powered by how unchosen by others he is. The agents don't choose him at all, his enemies in Neo, Morph and Trin and their crew don't choose him at all. He is unchosen and through his actions begins to utterly terrify the Matrix to the core and bring it to its knees. Neo if anything works towards helping the Machines. Had the implosion or whatever not happened when he turned into AS, Neo would have secured the machines a severe victory over the one who could have freed all from them. In the end Neo was a catalyst or at best another reactant but AS was the key, most significant One to bring about the cataclysmic event that freed humans from the machines.
Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
If there were clues at all left behind that suggest anything other than Neo isn’t The One and that Agent Smith is, then these errors are plot-holes. The youtube community speculating hyperbolic fan theories to suggest that Agent Smith is somehow The One are making a conspiracy theory that is not cinematic fact.
This is false. I already stated that I firmly deny that Zion or the place dubbed 'real world' is outside the Matrix. I think the red pill is a hoax and that it is merely another level/layer of Matrix. I also do not know what you mean by the fact thst AS isn't changing the Matrix fundamentally.
To treat Zion as an extension of the matrix, this requires more information rather than pure speculation or a hunch.
Con agreed to this on accepting. Yet, Con is trying to do this himself rather than link to sources.As for Neo's name. His name was Thomas Anderson, he chose a hacker name of Neo. If you were planning ahead in the shoes of Oracle and Architect, you would either write the code such that he'd choose that name or notice it and make it fit. From the perspective of Morpheus and Trinity, you would have confirmation bias. If Neo is the One is Trinity 3 people?What if the One is actually about Oneness. Agent Smith turning all into him represents 1. It is akin to making all numbers in a series change to 1.Neo half rhymes with Zero. Neo also has 'no' in the letters.Maybe Neo not being spelled One is a clue... He is not the One but indirectly is significant to the One.
The group of Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo are the trinity group. Neo represents The One. Given that there were five other predecessors before Neo who failed, the one thing that made Neo victorious was his belief in himself. The only person according to the prophecy that could romance Trinity and have powers in Zion is The One, which Neo is.
Agent Smith did not have either of these two things.
Which means that Neo is The One.
Con then proceeds to base his entire case on the fact it is Lore. He wants a truism:Lore says it is so autowin.This is not debating at all. He wants completely uneven playing field and is twisting this all to make me seem like a villain.
The description’s rules forbid me from using a wiki page that states who The One is. That is the truism and my limitation for the way I present my evidence.
None of my quotes from the wiki pages say that Neo is The One, I am saying that Neo is The One. The quotes from the wiki pages merely show the How and the Why.
If I follow the rules on the way I present my wiki pages, then they are permitted. As all the information from the wiki pages are evidence from the first three movies, which Pro says is allowed.
Round 3
Pro
#5
The severe sidetrack/red-herring of Zion's realism.
I clarified from the beginning of Round 1 that I do not see this as a Judeo-Christian construct. It is not as straightforward as the Architect is the (or a) god. That is nonsense.
The Architect was struggling to maintain hisnsimulated reality/realities in ways no omnipotent and omniscient god would.
This is now Round 3 of 4. I am not interested in this distraction from the main topic. Con needs it to be real because then he has some strange point that Neo had superpowers in the 'real world'. So here is what I am going to do.
I refuse to concede that the layer of the Matrix with Architect and Oracle in it as the real reality. I will however leave it as a neutral point. The reason is that absolutely nothing about the prophecy of 'The One' necessitated them existing outside the Matrix nor having powers outside it.
In fact that leads me smoothly to my next reiterated point.
====
Agent Smith (AS) being born inside the Matrix is far more of a strong point if Con sees the red pill as valid.
If the 'real world' according to Morpheus actually is the real world, it supports me a lot more. It means, Neo indisputably is born outside the Matrix negating him as a valid One.
Reincarnation, resurrection or rebirth does not count the same as literally being born.
The Oracle is referred to by AS as his literal Mother (see prior Round). He was born inside the Matrix.
This nonsense that Neo got resurrected being him being born is due to a concept of Buddhism that reincarnation is rebirth instead.
The issue is that Con asserts across the first 2 Rounds that Neo exists outside the Matrix in the unsimulated reality. If that is the case, it means he indisputably was born outside it. Being reincarnated as a full grown adult man back inside the Matrix doesn't mean he is born inside it. This is a distortion of what being born is.
Even stronger a point against Con on this is that it would mean when Morpheus approached Neo all the way until Neo got resurrected they were wrong that he was the one, simply hoping that he was since he was born outside it.
AS was born inside it. His mother was/is the Oracle herself.
====
The autowin truism path Con wants violates the spirit of both debate and the description. It should add to why to vote Conduct against him.
If we wish to know who The One is, then it makes sense to observe the facts and unravel the vision of the movies based on how the original creators intended it. Pro is essentially making the case that his opinion and interpretation is superior and should replace the writers’ vision. If he is to succeed at this, he is required to give a reasonable explanation or justification.
Con, Round 2
If the creators are wrong on logic inside their own show, what then? The creators can only claim how they intended the art to be but they cannot ever tell the eye of the beholder to perceive the art as they dictate. That violates a core principle of art.
I paste from Google AI on this:
While filmmakers and creators can strongly influence how audiences perceive a movie, they cannot dictate it. They use various techniques to guide the audience's understanding and emotional response, but the final interpretation is subjective and personal.Why perception is subjective:Individual Background:
Con wants this to be a truism on his part. He wants to spam "Neo is the One because X or Y says Neo is the One".
This is against the spirit of debate.
A truism is:
an undoubted or self-evident truth
It is obvious Con wants to deny Pro has any valid room to doubt that Neo is the One. He is not presenting you a case on why Neo is more the One than AS is, he is making it seem an irrefutable fact that would mean no debate can be had.
This is no different to if an abortion debate occurs and one side says 'God says be Pro-life' or the other side says 'the Law in country X says abortion is not murder, checkmate'.
The problem is neither has solidified why either the god or law is not wrong. In this debate, Con has failed to establish why we know for sure the confused creators are not wrong about the logical analysis I am applying to their trilogy.
I ask that you dismiss his attempt at asserting truism, it violates the spirit of the debate and also the spirit of agreed rules in the debate's description.
====
Morpheus was obviously wrong if AS is closer to being the One than Neo is. Similarly, the Oracle necessarily masked truth or lied in part about the full/true prophecy.
Con suddenly decided that it matters what Morpheus thinks. Morpheus is tangible in this debate. He is not an intangible axiom.
Morpheus needs to have been misled or at least somewhat confused. Evidence of this is the fact that 5 'One' candidates before. Sources won't fully confirm his age but because he is known to be among the original Zionites, we can assume he existed through all the sub-Matrix (or according to Con, all Matrix) simulated realities thus far.
I don't exactly know when Trinity was around. Regardless she is there early on and is said to be the first 'mate' (odd term to use for a female in this context) aboard the Nebuchadnezzar with Morpheus. We don't even know if she was one of the 5 (or is it 6?) mistaken Ones pre-Neo. We just know there were definitely 5 that were wrong and that Trinity was a major threat to the machines that Agents were after.
Let me reiterate, it is canonically confirmed that in search for The One, 5 wrong Ones (at least) are known of and confirmed as having been 'chosen' pre-Neo. This means we definitively with 0 doubt know that Morpheus lacks anything like omniscience or clairvoyance regarding finding the One. He only even was 'sure' about Neo because the Oracle told him to be.
What my entire case is based on is that Neo actually was indeed important as a catalyst for AS to unleash and fulfil the prophecy of The One.
====
It is obvious the Oracle withheld information even if Con says her actively lying at times was not obvious.
In previous Rounds I showed a clip once per Round that tells you to skip to around 2 minutes into it. In that clip you see her and the Architect talking and he says she played a dangerous game to which her reply is basically 'it worked, didn't it?' in differing words.
The Oracle was withholding information the entire time. That is part of why Morpheus ended up choosing 5 wrong Ones in the first place.
In Con's Logic
The Oracle knew the entire time that Neo was the One and withheld it watching Morpheus and Trinity helplessly mislead their crew for several iterations. Furthermore, she intentionally withholds that AS who calls her Mom is changed and mutating and lets them vs him alone blind and confused.
This means she was withholding information frequently.
In Pro's Logic
She knew almost all of it the entire time as her and the Architect were making a huge long con that they needed even the smartest of Machines to not catch onto. They needed a necessary red herring (the 5 wrong ones pre Neo and Neo himself) to make it so the Machines end up needing someone like Neo to stop the actual dangerous One (AS) who was a mutated/altered Agent. They needed very badly for the Machines to pay attention to humans not agents, to enable this and needed to socially engineer Morpheus and his crew to instigate the fights with AS that led to him changing as he did from Neo's code.
The Oracle was tactically tricking them the entire time but did genuinely want the destiny of the One achieved.
If I am the father of the Matrix, she...would undoubtedly be its mother.
She was initially created to interpret aspects of the human psyche and was responsible for the key principles behind the third "current" version of the Matrix. After having served her purpose, she went into Exile and aided The Resistance in the Machine War; she ultimately is responsible for ending the war through her manipulation of key members within The Resistance, including Neo.
Who is really more against the Canon now, huh?
I think my case has been fully made. I will reiterate a lot more in Round 4 to sum it up.
Con
#6
Hey guys. There are several instances in this debate that lead me to believe that Pro has not actually watched all 3 movies of the trilogy. But I'm not going to get into that. But I will let you know this will be the easiest round.
As I'm going to use a new angle that hasn't been discussed yet.
But first.:
Dropped Arguments
Pro has seemingly ignored the prophecies I gave for The One. The most important is Trinity falling for The One. She falls in love with Neo, but not Agent Smith.
The other prophecy he addresses but attempts to refute about Neo having powers outside the matrix. Agent Smith does NOT have powers outside of the matrix.
His rebuttal is that he believes the real world is an extension of the matrix. This is not neutral, as he says. If he makes this claim, then he is required to support it. If the real world is a part of the matrix, then his argument about The One needing to be born within the matrix means Neo fits this description. But he doesn't address my argument about The One being an outsider of the matrix.
“Once The One enters The Source, he will have the power to destroy the Matrix.
Neo & Jesus Christ
The matrix trilogy may not necessarily be a christian construct, but it did take a lot of inspiration. The one notable theme they borrowed is The Messiah archetype. The films are considered an allegory for christian beliefs, and Neo has been described as a modern Jesus according to SparkNotes. 1
And if The One is a metaphor for The Messiah, then the trio group of Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus represent The Holy Trinity. Neo being a part of this makes him more The One than Agent Smith. The symbols do not have to be categorically identically in the same pattern as christianity for me to make this connection.:
- The three together (Morpheus, Neo, Trinity) are necessary to conquer the matrix — the three in ONE. They may have powers against the matrix that others do not. Christian Allegory - Matrix Fans
So Morpheus is actually similar to John The Baptist who tells the prophecy of The One saving the people. Neo, much like Jesus, has his own metaphorical satanic gatekeeper and Judas. (Agent Smith = Gatekeeper and Cypher = Judas.) And Neo, much like Jesus, goes through a sort of self-sacrificial death, and like Jesus, comes back to life and becomes The One.
- In the first sequence of the first film, Neo delivers an illegal computer disk to a fellow hacker, who jokingly says of Neo, “Hallelujah. You’re my savior. My own personal Jesus Christ.” The Matrix: Unloaded Revelations - Christian Research Institute
The franchise is being very obvious in establishing Neo as the sci-fi Jesus Christ of the series. Jesus Christ is The Messiah, and The One is basically just a hollywood archetype adaptation of The Messiah.
- Keanu Reeves’s character Neo has been the biggest target of religious association throughout the Matrix Trilogy. His portrayal of the Christian Messiah has lead to many academic articles, debates and insights, which have been intertwined with religious beliefs of the movie’s message.
First, the death and resurrection of Neo at the end of the first movie is analogous to Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection. Neo is killed by the authorities of the Matrix realm, which can be seen as the equivalents of the ruling power who killed Christ two thousand years ago. Neo
The number three is heavily associated with Jesus, as he remained dead for 3 days. When Neo died, he died in the room 303 and was brought back 72 seconds later, which is symbolic for the 72 hours before Jesus's resurrection. Now that I have established the parallels between Neo and Jesus, let me now focus on rebuttals.
Rebuttals
Reincarnation, resurrection or rebirth does not count the same as literally being born.
This is a strawman fallacy, as I never once argue that resurrection is the literal equivalent. I am arguing that it is the metaphorical and symbolical equivalent. The prophecy of The One being born from within the system need not be literal, and Neo's resurrection granted him supernatural powers that allowed him to destroy the matrix and free humanity, thus fulfilling The Prophecy of The One. In this sense, the movie and lore both establishes that Neo's resurrection is a metaphorical and symbolic rebirth.
The autowin truism path Con wants violates the spirit of both debate and the description. It should add to why to vote Conduct against him.
I am both saddened and personally offended that Pro believes me arguing my position should cost me the conduct point. I have not violated the rules in anyway, and the rules leave a lot of flexibility which I have taken advantage of as my Con. If Pro is arguing that Con arguing their side is a violation of conduct, then Pro did not want a fair discussion. The demands of voters taking my conduct are likely a way to avoid fighting fair.
If the creators are wrong on logic inside their own show, what then? The creators can only claim how they intended the art to be but they cannot ever tell the eye of the beholder to perceive the art as they dictate. That violates a core principle of art.
Pro is arguing his opinion is canon.
My point is that the creators are the ultimate authority and foundation of what dictates correctness in their story. Now you are entitled to your own opinion, but if the story has already established something as canonical fact, then they cannot be wrong. Or by what measure do we determine if something is wrong or correct? I am arguing that we use the interpretation of the original creators to judge whether Pro is right or wrong.
Con suddenly decided that it matters what Morpheus thinks. Morpheus is tangible in this debate. He is not an intangible axiom.Morpheus needs to have been misled or at least somewhat confused. Evidence of this is the fact that 5 'One' candidates before. Sources won't fully confirm his age but because he is known to be among the original Zionites, we can assume he existed through all the sub-Matrix (or according to Con, all Matrix) simulated realities thus far.I don't exactly know when Trinity was around. Regardless she is there early on and is said to be the first 'mate' (odd term to use for a female in this context) aboard the Nebuchadnezzar with Morpheus. We don't even know if she was one of the 5 (or is it 6?) mistaken Ones pre-Neo. We just know there were definitely 5 that were wrong and that Trinity was a major threat to the machines that Agents were after.
Morpheus may not guess correctly everytime.
But Morpheus knows all the qualifications and requirements The One must have. Even if he doesn't know who The One is, he knows who The One isn't. That being Agent Smith. Of all the potential candidates to be The One, and Morpheus's pathological obsession of finding The One. Never once did it cross his mind that Agent Smith may be The One.
In Con's LogicThe Oracle knew the entire time that Neo was the One and withheld it watching Morpheus and Trinity helplessly mislead their crew for several iterations. Furthermore, she intentionally withholds that AS who calls her Mom is changed and mutating and lets them vs him alone blind and confused.This means she was withholding information frequently.In Pro's LogicShe knew almost all of it the entire time as her and the Architect were making a huge long con that they needed even the smartest of Machines to not catch onto. They needed a necessary red herring (the 5 wrong ones pre Neo and Neo himself) to make it so the Machines end up needing someone like Neo to stop the actual dangerous One (AS) who was a mutated/altered Agent. They needed very badly for the Machines to pay attention to humans not agents, to enable this and needed to socially engineer Morpheus and his crew to instigate the fights with AS that led to him changing as he did from Neo's code.The Oracle was tactically tricking them the entire time but did genuinely want the destiny of the One achieved.
Neo had powers beyond the matrix, which are only abilities The One could possess. Neo performed the same self-sacrifice that is demanded of The One and rescued all of humanity. Trinity is established according to prophecy to fall in love with he who becomes The One, which is Neo. Trinity falls in love with Neo, never Agent Smith. Neo belongs to the trinity of the matrix.: Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus.
Much like Jesus is a part of the holy trinity.: Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and God.
Round 4
Pro
#7
My opponent brings brand new points every single Round.
In exchange for pure constructive Round 1 and then being able to dedicate Round 2 to pure rebuttal. In exchange for needing to balance constructive with defense and rebuttals especially in middle rounds, the later speaker gets the advantage of final closing statement and seeing what the opponent brings first each Round.
In no way is it ethical as a voter to reward a debater constantly shifting what their case is. My opponent has gone from saying that Neo is the One because the creators said so, to taking the Christianity angle I saw coming a mile away in Round 1.
I will now reiterate why any take of the show as Christian good vs evil is wrong but I will not bring new points in Round 4 to combat my opponent's new added stuff.
====
The show is rooted in Gnostic heresy or panentheist anti-materialist philosophy such as Buddhist philosophy.
In Round 1, I laid out that the creators are 2 transwomen now with funky hairdos who quite clearly opposed Judeo-Christian theology. The new points my opponent raises in Round 3 are something I foresaw but I refuse to address some nonsense new angle that the creators literally made Neo Jesus.
I will say 1 thing. Trinity is who? It does not fit. As in the character Trinity fits nothing at all whether it be the male Holy Spirit or the mother Mary. If she were Mary, that being considered Trinity already is Pagan and severely Heretical.
My rebuttal is not needed. My case is constructively defensive rather than destructively. Agent Smith is akin to the Gnostic Messiah. His mission goes from blindly serving the demon 'demiurge' Architect to dedicating to destroy him and the machines. His primary mission was to rid humanity of what he felt was a prison and zoo.
This is all covered in my previous Rounds.
The only issue is AS seems Many and not One. This is due to taking it as a count. If you see One either as the end result of the mission and the culmination of the cataclysmic event just before the ending that temporarily frees humans from the machines, he fits. Alternatively, he fits because he turns the many into one type of coded being (himself).
This is where not only Gnosticism plays into things but Panentheism does too. He is freeing all of their simulated false identities made up in the Matrix. This is akin to force feeding one away from Rebirth and straight to Nirvana. Of course, this interpretation does not entirely work because Neo and others did get reincarnated.
So it is less 💃🕺 and more 🧠👿👺 whereas Con seems to see AS as 👹😶🌫️😈 but that is the Architect and Oracle.
====
What exactly is the One?
Con changed what he thinks One is. At first he says One is whatever the creators say. Then he says maybe not but lore is a huge indicator. Now he makes a Christian theology and tries to make Neo Jesus.
I will explain also why he got annoyed in Round 1 at me saying AS is also not truly the One.
The topic being debated is who is closer to being the One. The One was a myth, sort of. The Oracle lied about 1 chosen human being the One. It also was not entirely a chosen agent. As Con agreed in Round 2, the One had to be an unchosen freak case.
The real One that the Oracle had in mind is better defined by its end goal. The One was the one to free humans of the machines' tyranny. The One was to be born inside the Matrix and lead to fundamental changes so powerful it became a severe threat to the machines.
AS did all of this but it is true that Neo had a role.
AS was the most essential and rare reactant. Neo was a catalyst. At best Neo was a lesser reactant. They had tried out 5 So to say Neos prior, who were not Neo. The Oracle secretly knew the entire time that one of her agent 'children' had to come into direct conflict with the fake One. The fake One was special. He/she had glitched code that gave him/her higher rebelliousness and self awareness.
The issue was it had to be exactly the kind of fight where Neo's code imprinted on an Agent and led to a freak accident where the machines try to fight the human, not the agent, after both get reincarnated.
The fundamental issue also was that most agents in the shoes of AS would confess immediately to the machines or Zion on-the-record that they had gained self awareness and were able.to resist commands the machine gave them. AS as a personality was driven to act against the machine's wishes. This is where many viewers go wrong. They think the machines and AS shared a goal.
The Machines needed humanity enslaved, trapped in the Matrix. It suited them well. AS wanted to 'free them at gunpoint' to quote Greyparrot of this website as well as Wylted on their eccentric political views.
AS was far closer to being the One than Neo. The event that freed them was an implosion in Neo caused by AS turning Neo into himself while.Neo was directly being handled by an apex Machine. This severe glitch fries the Machines in Zion realm and forces a hard reset sort of (it is not entirely reset) so more a reboot with some things kept in tact such as Oracle and Architect.
The nature of said freedom was destructive, severely so. This fits AS's approach, not Neo's. Neo ends up freeing the humans by somehow being the defender of the Machines against their greatest threat ever.
This was all socially engineered by the Oracle, primarily and Architect who went along with her plan.
I remind you they needed the Machines convinced the humans were where the One is, so they never paid enough attention to the glitched Agent Smith until it was far too late to stop him.
This was the plan in essence and is why the Oracle had to lie to engineer it.
Con
#8
Pro's last round argument is very low-effort. The reason is because it was rushed. He had less than an hour and a half to write this.
The reason this shows is because he drops my whole case. As it is the last round, I cannot bring any new arguments, except rebuttals. So I will show you what we already know.
We are not debating some arbitrary version of The One that Pro came up with. We are debating who The One is based on the established criteria.
Dropped Arguments
- The One has powers that transcend The Matrix, and abilities in the real world. Neo does, Agent Smith does not.
- Trinity is to fall in love with he who becomes The One. She falls for Neo, not Agent Smith.
- Neo is repeatedly demonstrated to be a messianic figure and the parallels between him and Jesus regarding their self-sacrifice, the number 3, and the 72 hours. The One is prophesied as a savior, so Neo is very obviously The One.
- When Neo dies by Agent Smith's hand and is brought back to life, he gains the powers that only The One could have. Fulfilling his destiny and prophecy as the messiah and savior.
- Morpheus is the most talented at identifying The One. Even if he does not always know who The One is, he knows who The One isn't. And Agent Smith never crossed his radar as even being considered a potential One, thus rendering it unlikely.
- Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus are obviously a parallel to The Holy Trinity. Neo obviously being a metaphor for Jesus.
Rebuttals
The show is rooted in Gnostic heresy or panentheist anti-materialist philosophy such as Buddhist philosophy.In Round 1, I laid out that the creators are 2 transwomen now with funky hairdos who quite clearly opposed Judeo-Christian theology. The new points my opponent raises in Round 3 are something I foresaw but I refuse to address some nonsense new angle that the creators literally made Neo Jesus.
As I pointed out earlier, the franchise takes inspiration from a variety of inspirations, including judeo-christianity, and does not limit itself to one category. Attacking their lifestyle choices does not change this, nor does it prove anything about their personal beliefs versus the beliefs of the show. And it's not uncommon for writers to create entire universes that operate under different rules than their own beliefs.
Neo is made to be the Jesus of The Matrix trilogy, but this doesn't mean the writers intended for them to be 100% identical. As Jesus was already established as The Messiah from the very beginning, whereas I prove that Neo becomes The One through his choices.
I'm allowed to raise these points and arguments in Round 3. But it would be too late in Round 4. Pro refusing to address them means he concedes.
My rebuttal is not needed. My case is constructively defensive rather than destructively. Agent Smith is akin to the Gnostic Messiah. His mission goes from blindly serving the demon 'demiurge' Architect to dedicating to destroy him and the machines. His primary mission was to rid humanity of what he felt was a prison and zoo.This is all covered in my previous Rounds.The only issue is AS seems Many and not One. This is due to taking it as a count. If you see One either as the end result of the mission and the culmination of the cataclysmic event just before the ending that temporarily frees humans from the machines, he fits. Alternatively, he fits because he turns the many into one type of coded being (himself).
The Gnostics do not have their own personal version of the messiah, as the community is very much divided on this subject. Pro is grasping at straws to establish a connection that doesn't exist. This is a fabrication. Pro does not source anything about a gnostic messiah, which makes this unsubstantiated.
Furthermore, this is very much separate from the canon.
It is Neo who willingly and deliberately performs the ultimate self-sacrifice in their final fight, fulfilling the destiny of The One. Agent Smith does not do this.
Con changed what he thinks One is. At first he says One is whatever the creators say. Then he says maybe not but lore is a huge indicator. Now he makes a Christian theology and tries to make Neo Jesus.I will explain also why he got annoyed in Round 1 at me saying AS is also not truly the One.The topic being debated is who is closer to being the One. The One was a myth, sort of. The Oracle lied about 1 chosen human being the One. It also was not entirely a chosen agent. As Con agreed in Round 2, the One had to be an unchosen freak case.
Unless Pro can give a valid justification for why his interpretation of The One is better than the vision of the original creators', then I am simply suggesting we stick to the status quo and judge the accuracy of the religion, according to the rules of The Canon. Pro is saying the authors are wrong, but he hasn't shown why his version is more reliable.
I am not denying that The Matrix is not a purely christian-based franchise. It is an amalgamation, compounded from a variety of religious systems. But christianity makes up the majority of the percentage, as established by my sources.
The real One that the Oracle had in mind is better defined by its end goal. The One was the one to free humans of the machines' tyranny. The One was to be born inside the Matrix and lead to fundamental changes so powerful it became a severe threat to the machines.
Extend my argument about Neo becoming The One when he died and was reborn inside The Matrix.
Extend quote about The One also being an outsider, “Once The One enters The Source, he will have the power to destroy the Matrix."
AS was the most essential and rare reactant. Neo was a catalyst. At best Neo was a lesser reactant. They had tried out 5 So to say Neos prior, who were not Neo. The Oracle secretly knew the entire time that one of her agent 'children' had to come into direct conflict with the fake One. The fake One was special. He/she had glitched code that gave him/her higher rebelliousness and self awareness.The issue was it had to be exactly the kind of fight where Neo's code imprinted on an Agent and led to a freak accident where the machines try to fight the human, not the agent, after both get reincarnated.The fundamental issue also was that most agents in the shoes of AS would confess immediately to the machines or Zion on-the-record that they had gained self awareness and were able.to resist commands the machine gave them. AS as a personality was driven to act against the machine's wishes. This is where many viewers go wrong. They think the machines and AS shared a goal.The Machines needed humanity enslaved, trapped in the Matrix. It suited them well. AS wanted to 'free them at gunpoint' to quote Greyparrot of this website as well as Wylted on their eccentric political views.AS was far closer to being the One than Neo. The event that freed them was an implosion in Neo caused by AS turning Neo into himself while.Neo was directly being handled by an apex Machine. This severe glitch fries the Machines in Zion realm and forces a hard reset sort of (it is not entirely reset) so more a reboot with some things kept in tact such as Oracle and Architect.The nature of said freedom was destructive, severely so. This fits AS's approach, not Neo's. Neo ends up freeing the humans by somehow being the defender of the Machines against their greatest threat ever.This was all socially engineered by the Oracle, primarily and Architect who went along with her plan.I remind you they needed the Machines convinced the humans were where the One is, so they never paid enough attention to the glitched Agent Smith until it was far too late to stop him.This was the plan in essence and is why the Oracle had to lie to engineer it.
Neo is The One based upon the following factors.:
- The One had abilities that transcend The Matrix. Neo had powers within The Matrix and in The Real World while Agent Smith's powers were limited only to The Matrix.
- Trinity falls in love with he who would become The One. She falls for Neo, not Agent Smith. Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus represent The Holy Trinity.
- The One is The Matrix version of The Messiah, and Neo's parallels all intentionally resemble Jesus. Including his self-sacrifice, rebirth, the number 3, and the 72 hours.
- Morpheus is the most talented at identifying a potential candidate for The One. Even if he doesn't always know who The One is, he knows who The One isn't. Agent Smith never even crosses Morpheus's mind as a potential One.
- Neo is the one who willingly performs the final self-sacrifice, while Agent Smith is killed off rather than voluntarily allowing himself to die.
In conclusion
Pro failed to correctly define what The One is, or what a gnostic messiah is, explain why the authors were wrong or how their genders/hairstyle are relevant to this methodology of determining The One. It's also not enough for Pro to say that The Oracle is lying, he needs to point out what she is lying about.
Pro inadvertently concedes the resolution and his own case by admitting that The One doesn't even exist.:
The topic being debated is who is closer to being the One. The One was a myth, sort of.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Neither side makes this terribly easy for me, I'm afraid.
Pro's argument comes together well in the second round where I get a pretty discrete rundown of how his points gel to form a clear framework. I think Pro's first round was a little scattershot, more a collection of ideas and theories than a cohesive narrative that supported the resolution, but to his credit, Pro does manage to synthesize it pretty well. Mainly just a shame Pro doesn't manage to close out the debate as strong as he started it, with his last round largely dismissive of the points presented by Con rather than engaging with any of them specifically.
Con's argument largely coalesces in the third round, which is not too late to be considered, but does considerably weaken his points regarding how well the Christianity theming fits Neo into the box of "The One." It's also a kind of weird place to put that argument for the first time since Pro did put down some pre-rebuttal in his first round and spent much of his argument setting up a different religious lens through which to view the movies, which Con responded to by largely writing off the whole argument as Pro's headcanon. So Con didn't do himself any favors leading into that later argument.
The long and short of it is that I think Pro has the stronger argument if we're looking at which of them is set up as the most pivotal figure for fulfilling parts of the prophecy behind The One. Con argues several times that Neo fulfills that prophecy too, but Pro sets up a much more on balance comparison between the two, and while "catalyst" and "reactant" may not be the best terms to use to establish that (I know my chemistry well enough that I was scratching my head reading the parts of Pro's arguments that utilize those terms, and Pro doesn't do as good of a job as he could keeping them separate), Pro does clarify elsewhere that Agent Smith had a massive influence that Neo cannot match. I think he also sets up an interesting, albeit less direct, means of affirming the resolution through Gnosticism and Pantheism. From that lens at least, I can see where Pro is coming from pretty clearly, whereas the case Con later sets up for Christianity as a framework is more muddled and symbolic rather than directly evoking the philosophy underpinning that religion.
Where things get tricky is on the arguments about the sort of checklist for The One. Con lays out a pretty clear set of criteria that The Oracle says are required to be The One, including transcending the Matrix and Trinity falling in love with them, being in some sense born within The Matrix, and being identified by Morpheus. Those all bear weight in a distinct sense from whether or not certain names and metaphors hold up, and I think when the response to a lot of this is just "The Oracle's a liar", it just leads to more questions about what, then, are the discrete elements that define The One. Are those two elements lies from The Oracle? She clearly lied elsewhere, but it's unclear that she lied in these particular instances. Pro does manage to introduce some doubt as to whether Neo transcends the Matrix and both have claims to being "born" within it, so it mainly depends on how much weight I'm putting on Trinity falling in love with him and Morpheus's ability to identify him. I can't put much weight on the latter, mainly because Morpheus clearly does get it wrong on several occasions as both sides point out. So it really is mainly about the Trinity connection and, while I buy that that's a substantial point in Con's favor, I still end up voting Pro in the end. I think the weight of his broader thematic analysis and of Agent Smith's more weighty presence in the plot ends up doing more to support his position than Con can manage, and while I think Pro could have done a better job laying all this out in the final round, he does enough in the previous three to win my vote.
There is a different definition of Pantheism:
https://update.gci.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/panentheism.jpg
Maybe Buddhism is Pantheistic and not Panentheistic actually
Agent Smith is one of the best portrayed examples of an antivillains of all time imho.
Ah, must have mistyped that. I recalled the distinction in your argument, just didn't get the spelling right, but thank you for clarifying.
Thank you. Good vote.
One thing, Pantheism is this modern concept of many religions being true at the same time.
Panentheism is specific to religions that say we are within or from god-essence itself and all are god in a way therefore.
Thanks for the vote!
I am working on this, yes.
Whiteflame is currently voting on this already, I believe
Pls vote ty.
Agent smith
I don't think I'll get around to voting on this one, as I am not enough of a fan of the film series to stay engaged with the borderline scattershot arguments (there were good points in there, but from what I read it felt like there wasn't a clear trajectory)
That said, here are the thoughts I wrote down as I started to read it...
Creators:
While the description addresses it already, pro immediately opens with an attack against dogmatic loyalty to their narrative. I am not sure what them being trans has to do with anything, but honestly this debate couldn't be held in a meaningful fashion if we did not entertain that the writers could be wrong.
This also reminds me of an issue at Marvel Comics: https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/Was_Cyclops_Right%3F#Marvel_Is_God
The philosophy of Matrix:
Risks scope creep, but interesting. AS would be the one if there is only one (an over simplification, I am not trying to write paragraphs on each element).
Birthplace:
The description really could have done with whatever the prophecy is... But if it's key that the one is born in the matrix, then AS seems a closer match by that standard.
More religious talk:
I know those movies borrow from theology, but it pretty well invites dismissal to go so straight into that in the opening round (as much as it should be foreshadowed). Points like what hairstyle a character has, IMO miss the point of the debate and distract from it. This area gets mistaken for a Gish Gallop (I will add that trying to refine the resolution into one with the same meaning, seemed fruitless); but I do not consider it to be one, merely one that drifted off into too many side issues.
A set of The One:
Con does well comparing this to The Read Pirate Roberts, as a series of The One, which likewise matches what's said in the movies, even if they are shown to all have his face (incidentally, I don't think the MTV parody was unfair: https://youtu.be/HeSrJO4ISwo?si=9o1R0LbUEDVd6RII&t=353).
Trinity:
Con lands a very good point with The Oracle insisting the Trinity will fall in love with The One.
"Neo"
Con's point about the name was however weak, as it's going back to the authors being a bit uninspired.
Do not try and bend the voter. That's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. There is no voter.
Hey there, fellow voters. Is it possible to get a vote on this one?
Depends what fan means. If I was hardcore fan irl I wouldn't identify myself here as that and it depends what fan means.
I don't think you realise it is actually hard to watch/see the series anymore outside US and I have gradually weaned myself off of anything like Netflix. This Lent I cut down on it.
I knew early on when I saw it that it didn't add up that Neo was the hero. The biggest reason I knew this is the machines could see him the entire time. There is no possible way Morpheus and Trinity were accidentally getting 'lucky' every single time or outhacking an entire simulated reality itself that they themselves somehow supposedly escaped.
I was a very highly intelligent guy (IQ is irrelevant, my intelligence is higher than that if we mean philosophically) and watched it young but I originally thought it was a test. As in, if he picked Red, they'd keep testing him until he caved in and begged for blue again. That didn't pan out obviously.
I didn't like Agent Smith at first but I realised the other Agents were actually worse than Smith for achieving the goals Morpheus had if you thought about it harder.
I like the choice in the pfp. It’s really epic and badass.
Are you a fan of The Matrix?
I promise I won’t.
This debate is very interesting to me, I’ll take it seriously and participate with full commitment
Do you promise you wont FF?
I really want this to be a good debate.