Instigator / Pro
1578
rating
203
debates
54.68%
won
Topic
#6306
Dorian Gray is irredeemable.
Status
Debating
Waiting for the next argument from the contender.
Round will be automatically forfeited in:
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Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
1521
rating
12
debates
66.67%
won
Description
The movie adaptations do not count as evidence. The scope of this debate focuses only on the book by Oscar Wilde.
The summary/synopsis is Dorian Gray is an Victorian aristocrat who sells his soul for eternal youth. He remains at his physical prime and becomes morally corrupt on the inside, seeing hedonism and pleasure as the only purposes for living.
Rules:
On-balance. Only the book counts as the official canon for the character.
Con is free to argue his own interpretation of redemption using frameworks outside the book, but the discussion refers only to the character from the novel. Never from the movies, musicals, or plays.
Round 1
Welcome Vii, to this discussion about the work and literature masterpiece by Oscar Wilde.
Definitions
Atonement - reparation for a wrong or injury. (Oxford Languages)
Repenting - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one’s wrongdoing or sin. (Oxford Languages)
Accountability - an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one’s actions. (Merriam-Webster)
Framing/BOP
I am claiming that Dorian Gray is irredeemable. Which means I need to include and define all the factors concerning his redeemability, show how he falls short in those categories. If it can be demonstrated that he is insufficient in three or more, then I have successfully fulfilled the first part of my BOP. The second part of my BOP will be to provide actual proof that Dorian Gray was irredeemable.
Con doesn’t need to establish their own strong case to win. They simply need to nullify ½ of my case. This can be done by poking enough holes in the quality of my evidence to successfully refute the validity of my arguments. With enough pushback, my side should be invalidated.
Factors Affecting Redeemability.:
- Adequate Remorse/Guilt
- Willingness to Change/Commitment to Reformation
- Atonement
- Repentance
- Accountability
Standards of Virtue & Moral Conduct by Victorian Standards/Criteria to become a good person.:
- Honesty
- Duty
- Personal Responsibility
- Strong work ethic
Victorian Code of Conduct:
- Evangelicalism
- Utilitarianism
- Empiricism
Contentions
l. Dorian’s moral foundation was corrupted.
Dorian’s first introduction to morality begins in early adulthood when he first turns 20. His mentor and corrupter, Lord Henry, gifts him with a yellow book which serves as the inspiration of Dorian’s whole moral framework and lifestyle. A book on self-indulgence and vices which are socially scrutinized. While I am fairly open-minded, none of these things are necessarily evil per se. But these are the only examples and references that Dorian has for moral conduct. The concepts of discipline, empathy, loyalty, honesty are foreign concepts to him which he takes no time learning.
ll. Dorian rejected the opportunity of redemption.
Dorian’s self-portrait is proof of his immorality. Because it is a direct mirror to what his soul looks like. It bears the burden of any of his crimes, sins, or misdeeds.
After Dorian’s first sin, which is his cruel rejection of Sibyl Vane. (Which her suicide is technically not his fault, as he didn’t intend this. It is the first act which sets his whole pattern of cruelty and cycle of villainy into play.) There begins a time-skip where Dorian leaves a trail of bodies of people who have either committed suicide from being associated with him, broken souls with tarnished names, or people who have destroyed lives and descended into drug addiction.
Dorian’s great friend and loyal companion, Basil, visits Dorian 17 years later and there is a short-lived reunion. Dorian is 37. Basil questions Dorian if the allegations of him causing a boy’s suicide, Sir Henry Ashton’s social exile, Adrian Singleton’s opium addiction, and the destroyed career of Lord Kent’s son were true. Dorian lies and denies any wrongdoing. But when Dorian shows his self-portrait to Basil. Basil sees an old cretin with thinning hair, an evil smile, and the look of corruption has tainted its beauty. This proof makes Dorian’s crimes impossible to deny.
Instead of turning Dorian away, Basil pleads to Dorian to pray for forgiveness and turn his life around. But Dorian rejects it. This was Dorian’s only chance of redemption, as minimal and slight as the odds of success were.
lll. Dorian is a killer.
Dorian lashes out and rejects his one and only shot of redemption by murdering his best friend Basil with a blade. This marks the no-turning point of Dorian’s soul, as there is no turning back from this. Dorian realizes that the penalty for murder in this society is death. So Dorian reaches out to his friend Alan Campbell, who he had wronged sometime in the past. Alan Campbell is a chemist. Dorian blackmails and coerces Alan into disposing of Basil’s body to erase the evidence, causing Alan’s suicide.
IV. Dorian sold his soul and the portrait is proof.
In the beginning, Dorian wishes that he would remain eternally youthful and at his physical prime, while his portrait would age in his place instead. While the portrait ages, and Dorian doesn’t. There is also a catch to this devil’s bargain. The portrait would also show what Dorian’s soul truly looks like on the inside. If he remains pure and saintly, then the portrait would remain aesthetic. But if Dorian becomes corrupt or sinister, then the man on the portrait likewise becomes uglier.
Dorian’s portrait goes from showing a man who is the ultimate standard of what a male model looks like, to showing an old, wrinkled man with deformities, and thinning air. There is blood on the man’s hands and he is unrecognizable from the original Dorian Gray that remained on the portrait.
Thx for hvin me, Sir Lancelot.
So then ............
So then ............
The resolution that Dorian Gray is irredeemable requires far more than proving that he sinned or fell morally. It demands proof that redemption was permanently, wholly beyond his reach. That claim, even by the novel’s own moral fabric, is deeply flawed.
1. The Premise of Redemption Itself: Not Linear, Not Earned
Redemption isn’t a medal granted after five criteria are met. It’s a personal, internal transformation — often messy, delayed, and incomplete. Wilde, being a deeply paradoxical moralist, doesn’t frame redemption as an equation. The ending of the novel itself challenges the Pro’s position.
In the final scene, Dorian does express remorse. He reflects on his past with revulsion. He even considers choosing virtue, telling himself, “I will be good.” Of course, it’s naive, even self-serving — but it’s still a genuine desire. If irredeemability meant the permanent absence of guilt, this line alone breaks Pro’s case.
“Had it been merely vanity that made him do his one good deed? Or the desire for a new sensation…?”(Ch. 20)
Wilde’s ambiguity is intentional: even a flawed desire for redemption is still a step toward it. Dorian tries. That’s not the mark of someone irredeemable — that’s someone struggling.
2. Pro’s Framework Is Rigid, but Wilde’s Book Is Not
Pro outlines five moral traits (Remorse, Change, Atonement, Repentance, Accountability). But Wilde’s novel isn’t a Christian allegory or Victorian moral guidebook. It’s satire, decadence, and contradiction rolled into one.
Under Pro’s standard, even a deeply conflicted, repenting person could be labeled irredeemable just for failing to atone publicly or for lacking a “work ethic.” Dorian’s tragedy isn’t that he couldn’t be redeemed — it’s that he tried too late and didn’t know how.
He isolates himself, burns the yellow book, and desperately destroys the portrait — the embodiment of his corruption. That final act is more than self-destruction; it’s an attempt to sever himself from sin:
“He would destroy the past, and when that was gone he would be free.”(Ch. 20)
Redemption isn't always survival. Sometimes it’s the choice to face one’s sins — even if it kills you. That is still a redemptive arc.
3. The Portrait = External Guilt, Not Eternal Damnation
Pro argues that the portrait is proof of Dorian’s unredeemable soul. But this flips Wilde’s symbol on its head. The portrait isn't hell — it's conscience. A visible manifestation of guilt. Every time Dorian commits a sin, he’s confronted with the consequences.
Why would Wilde write a character haunted by his own portrait for 18 years if he were incapable of guilt? The very existence of the portrait shows Dorian cannot numb himself from morality. He knows he’s fallen. He fears it. That’s not irredeemable — that’s tortured.
4. Murder Does Not = Irredeemable
Let’s not forget: this is a fictional world, and Wilde isn’t arguing that murder is unforgivable — he’s showing us what guilt does to the soul. Dorian’s killing of Basil is horrifying. But the real focus isn’t the act itself — it’s the aftermath.
He sees Basil’s corpse. He sees the portrait worsen. And it breaks him. He’s not proud. He spirals. He blackmails, yes — but again, not to grow his empire of sin. He’s desperate. He's collapsing. A character who is irredeemable would be at peace with evil — Dorian never is.
5. Dorian’s Death Is Redemption, Not Damnation
Pro calls Dorian’s death the final proof of his doom. But it’s actually his only genuine act of accountability. When he destroys the portrait — knowing what will happen — Dorian finally owns up. That act kills him, yes, but that’s because he chooses to destroy the corrupted image of his soul.
He chooses the truth over the illusion.
Wilde’s message isn’t “he was evil and got what he deserved.” It’s more tragic and real: he tried to change too late. But the trying still matters.
Conclusion: The Struggle to Redeem Is Redemption
Dorian Gray is not a saint. But he is not irredeemable. The novel ends not with a monster destroyed, but a soul finally shattered by guilt and the burden of truth. That burden is proof that his humanity — and thus, his redemption — was never lost.
So on balance, the Pro fails to show that Dorian could never be redeemed. What Wilde gave us wasn’t a villain — he gave us a cautionary tale, one still gasping for light in the dark.
Round 2
Great analysis, Con! Your first round details an interesting breakdown of the events.
Round 1 Review
In effect, Con reframes Dorian’s legacy as the fulfillment of a redemptive arc in of itself and that Dorian’s final choice is the final act of justice which exonerates Dorian from the burden of his villainy.
This perspective is a very positive interpretation, but the reality is far grimmer.
Dorian’s suicide/decision to destroy the portrait is his final act of cowardice to escape the world when he realizes that redemption is no longer an option rather than actually face accountability.
This is not a redemptive arc, this is a cautionary tale.
Which now raises the question.: What would Dorian have to do to achieve a version of redemption?:
- Repair the reputation of the names of the people he destroyed.
- Provide a form of emotional compensation to the loved ones of the victims whose deaths were caused by Dorian being in their life. Impossible, given the extent.
- Help people reject pleasure, and be an influence for good in their lives.
- Confess to the murder of Basil, the obstruction of justice by tampering with evidence, and confess to coercing Alan through blackmail and face the punishment of the justice system.
Dorian’s guilt is not a feeling of remorse, or empathy for his victims. It is a fear of two things.:
- That society has become disillusioned with Dorian and his good looks can no longer preserve his reputation or shield him from scrutiny.
- The fear of karmic justice or divine retribution.
Dorian easily brushes off the death of Sibyl Vane and denies any wrongdoing, he doesn’t experience a moment of hesitation or contemplation with the lives he has destroyed and seems to sleep-walk through the last 17 years. It takes Basil reuniting and confronting him with the horrors, which Dorian continues to see as a blissful dream rather than a nightmare. And when Basil even has the audacity to suggest Dorian is a bad person that should pray, Dorian is enraged and stabs him to death. Dorian rationalizes this as necessary and then blackmails Alan Campbell to dispose of the evidence. All of this is done out of fear of being ridiculed and then being dealt the death penalty. Even then, he still sees himself as a victim. Able to maintain appearances in public.
The only time Dorian contemplates personal change or reform is when his life is at stake, as soon as he is threatened by James Vane for causing the death of Sibyl. This decision to become a good person is done out of necessity, and this superficial guilt is far from an act of remorse. Not that it would be adequate to make up for all the damage he’s done and caused. True atonement takes more than “just feeling bad,” but it is a first step.
But true redemption is a long process.
Rebuttals
1. The Premise of Redemption Itself: Not Linear, Not EarnedRedemption isn’t a medal granted after five criteria are met. It’s a personal, internal transformation. Wilde, being a deeply paradoxical moralist, doesn’t frame redemption as an equation. The ending of the novel itself challenges Pro’s position.In the final scene, Dorian expresses remorse. He reflects on his past with revulsion. He considers choosing virtue, saying, “I will be good.”
A personal moment of guilt is insufficient to address the pure corruption of one’s soul. Dorian has remained 17 years in corruption, with the vices serving as his own moral compass. His moral framework is limited to one category, one niche. Which is hedonism.
Even if he wanted to become a better person, he has no personal standards or criteria for what constitutes a better person. Thus, proving that redemption is a process.
Without personal expectations, goals, or a solid plan. He has no means of moving forward. The decision to refrain from evil is not redemption either, as he has no contingency plan to address the possibility of relapse.
Two quotes that define Dorian’s views of the world and that he has lived by, directly from the book.:
- “Habits, once formed, become instinct. And bad habits, once indulged, become second nature.”
- "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself."
Seventeen to eighteen years of bad habits cannot be erased easily. Dorian has no way of conquering these vices, as he’s learned that the only way to deal with them is to give in. Relapsing is too strong of a temptation.
even a flawed desire for redemption is still a step toward it. Dorian tries. That’s not the mark of someone irredeemable — that’s someone struggling.
This is a contradiction. If redemption is not linear, not earned. Then what does the step toward redemption, or signs of struggle mean anything anyway?
That redemption is linear and is a process. The desire for redemption is irrelevant when deciding whether someone is redeemable or not, the only thing that matters is their ability to achieve it. In the first part, Dorian’s desire for redemption is superficial, hollow, and self-serving. Which means it is being half-assed and lacks true commitment, making relapse more likely.
The second is that Dorian has demonstrated he will always take the easiest and quickest solution no matter what, proving that he does not have the ability to complete the process of redemption.
3. The Portrait = External Guilt, Not Eternal DamnationPro argues the portrait is proof of Dorian’s soul. But this flips Wilde’s symbol on its head. The portrait isn't hell — it's conscience. A manifestation of guilt. Every time Dorian commits a sin, he’s confronted with consequences.Why would Wilde write a character haunted by his portrait for 18 years if he were incapable of guilt? The existence of the portrait shows Dorian cannot numb himself from morality. That’s not irredeemable — that’s tortured.
The portrait is a mirror to Dorian’s true soul, a final reminder that exchanging your morals, conscience, and empathy for something superficial will always result in a tragic ending.
Dorian’s suppressed emotions, or feelings are an insignificantly small factor to the portrait. As the character in the portrait grows uglier, more distorted, more grotesque and deformed. It is a combination of how Dorian’s actions directly destroy the lives of those around him, or lead to their death. The blood on the portrait character’s hands are not a result of Dorian’s personal guilt, but proof of Dorian’s murder. That he has killed Basil and there is now blood on his hands for the first time, directly.
His sins are terrible, so it is therefore only just that he suffers for them.
4. Murder Does Not = IrredeemableWilde isn’t arguing that murder is unforgivable — he’s showing us what guilt does to the soul. Dorian’s killing of Basil is horrifying. But the real focus isn’t the act itself — it’s the aftermath.He sees Basil’s corpse. He sees the portrait worsen. it breaks him. He spirals. He blackmails, yes — not to grow his empire of sin. He’s desperate. A character who is irredeemable would be at peace with evil — Dorian never is.
It is common for truly evil people to be uncomfortable with their sins, but this realization does not make them good people. This guilt becomes a way for them to rationalize and continue justifying committing more bad deeds which becomes a cycle of destruction, a self-fulfilling prophecy. The logic being “if i’m a terrible person anyway, then there is no point.”
Whereas a true sociopath devoid of compassion would be able to commit one murder and then remain a non-murderer the rest of their life because their psyche is immune to guilt, so it doesn’t lead to a downward cycle where they get sloppier and more desperate.
This emotional crisis is not a sign of redeemability. Because even after committing the murder, Dorian does not feel guilt that his blackmail and coercion led to Alan’s suicide. If he felt guilt or sympathy, he would turn himself in. Instead he experiences relief that Alan died by taking Dorian’s secret to the grave with him.
5. Dorian’s Death Is Redemption, Not DamnationPro calls Dorian’s death proof of his doom. But it’s his only genuine act of accountability. When he destroys the portrait — knowing what will happen — Dorian finally owns up. That act kills him, but that’s because he chooses to destroy the corrupted image of his soul.He chooses the truth over illusion.Wilde’s message isn’t “he was evil and got what he deserved.” It’s more tragic: he tried to change too late. But the trying matters.Conclusion: The Struggle to Redeem Is RedemptionDorian Gray is not irredeemable. The novel ends not with a monster destroyed, but a soul shattered by guilt. That burden is proof that his humanity — and his redemption — was never lost.
Dorian is too far gone at this point. By taking his own life, he is trying to spare himself the consequences of his decisions by far. He is not trying to make up for what he’s done.
Realistically, Dorian had the only tool that granted him enough time to complete the process of redemption.: Immortality.
Dorian tries half-heartedly to change, but the portrait doesn’t revert back to its original look of beauty and innocence. Showing that completing the process of redemption is not going to be that easy. Instead of working to overcome these challenges, Dorian’s cowardice kicks in and he takes his own life and switches places with the caricature from the portrait.
The decision to die is not the cowardly act, but rather how he chose to go out.
Redemption would have been turning himself over to the justice system and leaving his fate at the mercy of the authorities. But Dorian’s too big of a coward to even do that, that he chooses to destroy the only evidence of his own crimes and go out on his own terms. When he doesn’t even deserve that privilege.
The only thing that matters when deciding redeemability, is the ability to complete the process of redemption. Which Dorian lacks.
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Round 3
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Round 4
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Tempting.