Instigator / Pro
7
1600
rating
215
debates
54.88%
won
Topic
#6306
Dorian Gray is irredeemable.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
Sir.Lancelot
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
4
1508
rating
14
debates
64.29%
won
Description
The movie adaptations do not count as evidence. The scope of this debate focuses only on the book by Oscar Wilde.
The summary/synopsis is Dorian Gray is an Victorian aristocrat who sells his soul for eternal youth. He remains at his physical prime and becomes morally corrupt on the inside, seeing hedonism and pleasure as the only purposes for living.
Rules:
On-balance. Only the book counts as the official canon for the character.
Con is free to argue his own interpretation of redemption using frameworks outside the book, but the discussion refers only to the character from the novel. Never from the movies, musicals, or plays.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Welcome Vii, to this discussion about the work and literature masterpiece by Oscar Wilde.
Definitions
Atonement - reparation for a wrong or injury. (Oxford Languages)
Repenting - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one’s wrongdoing or sin. (Oxford Languages)
Accountability - an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one’s actions. (Merriam-Webster)
Framing/BOP
I am claiming that Dorian Gray is irredeemable. Which means I need to include and define all the factors concerning his redeemability, show how he falls short in those categories. If it can be demonstrated that he is insufficient in three or more, then I have successfully fulfilled the first part of my BOP. The second part of my BOP will be to provide actual proof that Dorian Gray was irredeemable.
Con doesn’t need to establish their own strong case to win. They simply need to nullify ½ of my case. This can be done by poking enough holes in the quality of my evidence to successfully refute the validity of my arguments. With enough pushback, my side should be invalidated.
Factors Affecting Redeemability.:
- Adequate Remorse/Guilt
- Willingness to Change/Commitment to Reformation
- Atonement
- Repentance
- Accountability
Standards of Virtue & Moral Conduct by Victorian Standards/Criteria to become a good person.:
- Honesty
- Duty
- Personal Responsibility
- Strong work ethic
Victorian Code of Conduct:
- Evangelicalism
- Utilitarianism
- Empiricism
Contentions
l. Dorian’s moral foundation was corrupted.
Dorian’s first introduction to morality begins in early adulthood when he first turns 20. His mentor and corrupter, Lord Henry, gifts him with a yellow book which serves as the inspiration of Dorian’s whole moral framework and lifestyle. A book on self-indulgence and vices which are socially scrutinized. While I am fairly open-minded, none of these things are necessarily evil per se. But these are the only examples and references that Dorian has for moral conduct. The concepts of discipline, empathy, loyalty, honesty are foreign concepts to him which he takes no time learning.
ll. Dorian rejected the opportunity of redemption.
Dorian’s self-portrait is proof of his immorality. Because it is a direct mirror to what his soul looks like. It bears the burden of any of his crimes, sins, or misdeeds.
After Dorian’s first sin, which is his cruel rejection of Sibyl Vane. (Which her suicide is technically not his fault, as he didn’t intend this. It is the first act which sets his whole pattern of cruelty and cycle of villainy into play.) There begins a time-skip where Dorian leaves a trail of bodies of people who have either committed suicide from being associated with him, broken souls with tarnished names, or people who have destroyed lives and descended into drug addiction.
Dorian’s great friend and loyal companion, Basil, visits Dorian 17 years later and there is a short-lived reunion. Dorian is 37. Basil questions Dorian if the allegations of him causing a boy’s suicide, Sir Henry Ashton’s social exile, Adrian Singleton’s opium addiction, and the destroyed career of Lord Kent’s son were true. Dorian lies and denies any wrongdoing. But when Dorian shows his self-portrait to Basil. Basil sees an old cretin with thinning hair, an evil smile, and the look of corruption has tainted its beauty. This proof makes Dorian’s crimes impossible to deny.
Instead of turning Dorian away, Basil pleads to Dorian to pray for forgiveness and turn his life around. But Dorian rejects it. This was Dorian’s only chance of redemption, as minimal and slight as the odds of success were.
lll. Dorian is a killer.
Dorian lashes out and rejects his one and only shot of redemption by murdering his best friend Basil with a blade. This marks the no-turning point of Dorian’s soul, as there is no turning back from this. Dorian realizes that the penalty for murder in this society is death. So Dorian reaches out to his friend Alan Campbell, who he had wronged sometime in the past. Alan Campbell is a chemist. Dorian blackmails and coerces Alan into disposing of Basil’s body to erase the evidence, causing Alan’s suicide.
IV. Dorian sold his soul and the portrait is proof.
In the beginning, Dorian wishes that he would remain eternally youthful and at his physical prime, while his portrait would age in his place instead. While the portrait ages, and Dorian doesn’t. There is also a catch to this devil’s bargain. The portrait would also show what Dorian’s soul truly looks like on the inside. If he remains pure and saintly, then the portrait would remain aesthetic. But if Dorian becomes corrupt or sinister, then the man on the portrait likewise becomes uglier.
Dorian’s portrait goes from showing a man who is the ultimate standard of what a male model looks like, to showing an old, wrinkled man with deformities, and thinning air. There is blood on the man’s hands and he is unrecognizable from the original Dorian Gray that remained on the portrait.
Con
#2
Thx for hvin me, Sir Lancelot.
So then ............
So then ............
The resolution that Dorian Gray is irredeemable requires far more than proving that he sinned or fell morally. It demands proof that redemption was permanently, wholly beyond his reach. That claim, even by the novel’s own moral fabric, is deeply flawed.
1. The Premise of Redemption Itself: Not Linear, Not Earned
Redemption isn’t a medal granted after five criteria are met. It’s a personal, internal transformation — often messy, delayed, and incomplete. Wilde, being a deeply paradoxical moralist, doesn’t frame redemption as an equation. The ending of the novel itself challenges the Pro’s position.
In the final scene, Dorian does express remorse. He reflects on his past with revulsion. He even considers choosing virtue, telling himself, “I will be good.” Of course, it’s naive, even self-serving — but it’s still a genuine desire. If irredeemability meant the permanent absence of guilt, this line alone breaks Pro’s case.
“Had it been merely vanity that made him do his one good deed? Or the desire for a new sensation…?”(Ch. 20)
Wilde’s ambiguity is intentional: even a flawed desire for redemption is still a step toward it. Dorian tries. That’s not the mark of someone irredeemable — that’s someone struggling.
2. Pro’s Framework Is Rigid, but Wilde’s Book Is Not
Pro outlines five moral traits (Remorse, Change, Atonement, Repentance, Accountability). But Wilde’s novel isn’t a Christian allegory or Victorian moral guidebook. It’s satire, decadence, and contradiction rolled into one.
Under Pro’s standard, even a deeply conflicted, repenting person could be labeled irredeemable just for failing to atone publicly or for lacking a “work ethic.” Dorian’s tragedy isn’t that he couldn’t be redeemed — it’s that he tried too late and didn’t know how.
He isolates himself, burns the yellow book, and desperately destroys the portrait — the embodiment of his corruption. That final act is more than self-destruction; it’s an attempt to sever himself from sin:
“He would destroy the past, and when that was gone he would be free.”(Ch. 20)
Redemption isn't always survival. Sometimes it’s the choice to face one’s sins — even if it kills you. That is still a redemptive arc.
3. The Portrait = External Guilt, Not Eternal Damnation
Pro argues that the portrait is proof of Dorian’s unredeemable soul. But this flips Wilde’s symbol on its head. The portrait isn't hell — it's conscience. A visible manifestation of guilt. Every time Dorian commits a sin, he’s confronted with the consequences.
Why would Wilde write a character haunted by his own portrait for 18 years if he were incapable of guilt? The very existence of the portrait shows Dorian cannot numb himself from morality. He knows he’s fallen. He fears it. That’s not irredeemable — that’s tortured.
4. Murder Does Not = Irredeemable
Let’s not forget: this is a fictional world, and Wilde isn’t arguing that murder is unforgivable — he’s showing us what guilt does to the soul. Dorian’s killing of Basil is horrifying. But the real focus isn’t the act itself — it’s the aftermath.
He sees Basil’s corpse. He sees the portrait worsen. And it breaks him. He’s not proud. He spirals. He blackmails, yes — but again, not to grow his empire of sin. He’s desperate. He's collapsing. A character who is irredeemable would be at peace with evil — Dorian never is.
5. Dorian’s Death Is Redemption, Not Damnation
Pro calls Dorian’s death the final proof of his doom. But it’s actually his only genuine act of accountability. When he destroys the portrait — knowing what will happen — Dorian finally owns up. That act kills him, yes, but that’s because he chooses to destroy the corrupted image of his soul.
He chooses the truth over the illusion.
Wilde’s message isn’t “he was evil and got what he deserved.” It’s more tragic and real: he tried to change too late. But the trying still matters.
Conclusion: The Struggle to Redeem Is Redemption
Dorian Gray is not a saint. But he is not irredeemable. The novel ends not with a monster destroyed, but a soul finally shattered by guilt and the burden of truth. That burden is proof that his humanity — and thus, his redemption — was never lost.
So on balance, the Pro fails to show that Dorian could never be redeemed. What Wilde gave us wasn’t a villain — he gave us a cautionary tale, one still gasping for light in the dark.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Great analysis, Con! Your first round details an interesting breakdown of the events.
Round 1 Review
In effect, Con reframes Dorian’s legacy as the fulfillment of a redemptive arc in of itself and that Dorian’s final choice is the final act of justice which exonerates Dorian from the burden of his villainy.
This perspective is a very positive interpretation, but the reality is far grimmer.
Dorian’s suicide/decision to destroy the portrait is his final act of cowardice to escape the world when he realizes that redemption is no longer an option rather than actually face accountability.
This is not a redemptive arc, this is a cautionary tale.
Which now raises the question.: What would Dorian have to do to achieve a version of redemption?:
- Repair the reputation of the names of the people he destroyed.
- Provide a form of emotional compensation to the loved ones of the victims whose deaths were caused by Dorian being in their life. Impossible, given the extent.
- Help people reject pleasure, and be an influence for good in their lives.
- Confess to the murder of Basil, the obstruction of justice by tampering with evidence, and confess to coercing Alan through blackmail and face the punishment of the justice system.
Dorian’s guilt is not a feeling of remorse, or empathy for his victims. It is a fear of two things.:
- That society has become disillusioned with Dorian and his good looks can no longer preserve his reputation or shield him from scrutiny.
- The fear of karmic justice or divine retribution.
Dorian easily brushes off the death of Sibyl Vane and denies any wrongdoing, he doesn’t experience a moment of hesitation or contemplation with the lives he has destroyed and seems to sleep-walk through the last 17 years. It takes Basil reuniting and confronting him with the horrors, which Dorian continues to see as a blissful dream rather than a nightmare. And when Basil even has the audacity to suggest Dorian is a bad person that should pray, Dorian is enraged and stabs him to death. Dorian rationalizes this as necessary and then blackmails Alan Campbell to dispose of the evidence. All of this is done out of fear of being ridiculed and then being dealt the death penalty. Even then, he still sees himself as a victim. Able to maintain appearances in public.
The only time Dorian contemplates personal change or reform is when his life is at stake, as soon as he is threatened by James Vane for causing the death of Sibyl. This decision to become a good person is done out of necessity, and this superficial guilt is far from an act of remorse. Not that it would be adequate to make up for all the damage he’s done and caused. True atonement takes more than “just feeling bad,” but it is a first step.
But true redemption is a long process.
Rebuttals
1. The Premise of Redemption Itself: Not Linear, Not EarnedRedemption isn’t a medal granted after five criteria are met. It’s a personal, internal transformation. Wilde, being a deeply paradoxical moralist, doesn’t frame redemption as an equation. The ending of the novel itself challenges Pro’s position.In the final scene, Dorian expresses remorse. He reflects on his past with revulsion. He considers choosing virtue, saying, “I will be good.”
A personal moment of guilt is insufficient to address the pure corruption of one’s soul. Dorian has remained 17 years in corruption, with the vices serving as his own moral compass. His moral framework is limited to one category, one niche. Which is hedonism.
Even if he wanted to become a better person, he has no personal standards or criteria for what constitutes a better person. Thus, proving that redemption is a process.
Without personal expectations, goals, or a solid plan. He has no means of moving forward. The decision to refrain from evil is not redemption either, as he has no contingency plan to address the possibility of relapse.
Two quotes that define Dorian’s views of the world and that he has lived by, directly from the book.:
- “Habits, once formed, become instinct. And bad habits, once indulged, become second nature.”
- "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself."
Seventeen to eighteen years of bad habits cannot be erased easily. Dorian has no way of conquering these vices, as he’s learned that the only way to deal with them is to give in. Relapsing is too strong of a temptation.
even a flawed desire for redemption is still a step toward it. Dorian tries. That’s not the mark of someone irredeemable — that’s someone struggling.
This is a contradiction. If redemption is not linear, not earned. Then what does the step toward redemption, or signs of struggle mean anything anyway?
That redemption is linear and is a process. The desire for redemption is irrelevant when deciding whether someone is redeemable or not, the only thing that matters is their ability to achieve it. In the first part, Dorian’s desire for redemption is superficial, hollow, and self-serving. Which means it is being half-assed and lacks true commitment, making relapse more likely.
The second is that Dorian has demonstrated he will always take the easiest and quickest solution no matter what, proving that he does not have the ability to complete the process of redemption.
3. The Portrait = External Guilt, Not Eternal DamnationPro argues the portrait is proof of Dorian’s soul. But this flips Wilde’s symbol on its head. The portrait isn't hell — it's conscience. A manifestation of guilt. Every time Dorian commits a sin, he’s confronted with consequences.Why would Wilde write a character haunted by his portrait for 18 years if he were incapable of guilt? The existence of the portrait shows Dorian cannot numb himself from morality. That’s not irredeemable — that’s tortured.
The portrait is a mirror to Dorian’s true soul, a final reminder that exchanging your morals, conscience, and empathy for something superficial will always result in a tragic ending.
Dorian’s suppressed emotions, or feelings are an insignificantly small factor to the portrait. As the character in the portrait grows uglier, more distorted, more grotesque and deformed. It is a combination of how Dorian’s actions directly destroy the lives of those around him, or lead to their death. The blood on the portrait character’s hands are not a result of Dorian’s personal guilt, but proof of Dorian’s murder. That he has killed Basil and there is now blood on his hands for the first time, directly.
His sins are terrible, so it is therefore only just that he suffers for them.
4. Murder Does Not = IrredeemableWilde isn’t arguing that murder is unforgivable — he’s showing us what guilt does to the soul. Dorian’s killing of Basil is horrifying. But the real focus isn’t the act itself — it’s the aftermath.He sees Basil’s corpse. He sees the portrait worsen. it breaks him. He spirals. He blackmails, yes — not to grow his empire of sin. He’s desperate. A character who is irredeemable would be at peace with evil — Dorian never is.
It is common for truly evil people to be uncomfortable with their sins, but this realization does not make them good people. This guilt becomes a way for them to rationalize and continue justifying committing more bad deeds which becomes a cycle of destruction, a self-fulfilling prophecy. The logic being “if i’m a terrible person anyway, then there is no point.”
Whereas a true sociopath devoid of compassion would be able to commit one murder and then remain a non-murderer the rest of their life because their psyche is immune to guilt, so it doesn’t lead to a downward cycle where they get sloppier and more desperate.
This emotional crisis is not a sign of redeemability. Because even after committing the murder, Dorian does not feel guilt that his blackmail and coercion led to Alan’s suicide. If he felt guilt or sympathy, he would turn himself in. Instead he experiences relief that Alan died by taking Dorian’s secret to the grave with him.
5. Dorian’s Death Is Redemption, Not DamnationPro calls Dorian’s death proof of his doom. But it’s his only genuine act of accountability. When he destroys the portrait — knowing what will happen — Dorian finally owns up. That act kills him, but that’s because he chooses to destroy the corrupted image of his soul.He chooses the truth over illusion.Wilde’s message isn’t “he was evil and got what he deserved.” It’s more tragic: he tried to change too late. But the trying matters.Conclusion: The Struggle to Redeem Is RedemptionDorian Gray is not irredeemable. The novel ends not with a monster destroyed, but a soul shattered by guilt. That burden is proof that his humanity — and his redemption — was never lost.
Dorian is too far gone at this point. By taking his own life, he is trying to spare himself the consequences of his decisions by far. He is not trying to make up for what he’s done.
Realistically, Dorian had the only tool that granted him enough time to complete the process of redemption.: Immortality.
Dorian tries half-heartedly to change, but the portrait doesn’t revert back to its original look of beauty and innocence. Showing that completing the process of redemption is not going to be that easy. Instead of working to overcome these challenges, Dorian’s cowardice kicks in and he takes his own life and switches places with the caricature from the portrait.
The decision to die is not the cowardly act, but rather how he chose to go out.
Redemption would have been turning himself over to the justice system and leaving his fate at the mercy of the authorities. But Dorian’s too big of a coward to even do that, that he chooses to destroy the only evidence of his own crimes and go out on his own terms. When he doesn’t even deserve that privilege.
The only thing that matters when deciding redeemability, is the ability to complete the process of redemption. Which Dorian lacks.
Con
#4
The Cowardice of Redemption — or the Courage to Face the Self?
Pro paints Dorian’s final act not as redemption, but cowardice. He argues that suicide is a means of escape, not accountability, and that Dorian’s remorse is superficial, self-serving, and ultimately meaningless.
But this reading flattens Wilde’s complexity — turning The Picture of Dorian Gray from a psychological tragedy into a mere checklist of punishment. Wilde’s story is not courtroom justice. It is soul-deep rot, and what’s left when conscience refuses to die.
- The debate is not whether Dorian was “punished enough,” but whether he remained redeemable.
1. “Dorian’s final act is cowardice.”
Then why destroy the portrait at all?
Cowardice would’ve been leaving it hidden. Letting the lies persist. Clinging to youth and pleasure while the world admired him. But instead, Dorian stares at his corrupted soul and chooses destruction — not of others this time, but of himself. He strikes not to hide a crime, but to obliterate the root of it.
That’s not an escape — that’s a last, desperate act of moral confrontation. Wilde makes it fatal because it’s irreversible. Dorian’s death is not glorious — it’s honest. And honesty, for him, is new. That is growth.
“It had been like conscience to him. He would destroy it.”— Chapter 20
This is not a man washing his hands. It’s a man finally admitting what’s on them.
2. “He only tried to change because he was afraid.”
Of course he was afraid. Fear is a part of guilt. It doesn’t invalidate it. When James Vane threatens him, Dorian begins to change not because of a gun to his head, but because he’s confronted — finally — with the reality of consequences. Fear wakes him. That’s not hollow; that’s human.
Even if his repentance began in fear, Wilde shows it growing into disgust at what he’s become. That’s not a mask — that’s a crack. And cracks, in Wilde’s world, mean the soul is not entirely lost.
3. “He didn’t fix anything. Redemption requires action.”
What would redemption even look like for Dorian? The Pro suggests he should've turned himself in, repaired reputations, or become a moral leader. But Wilde doesn’t frame morality as external performance. Dorian lives in a world where public virtue is often hypocrisy — think of Lord Henry’s endless aphorisms that glamorize sin.
Wilde isn’t writing a morality play. He’s writing a moral paradox.
Dorian’s redemption lies not in “fixing” the world but in seeing himself clearly for the first time. That insight — that unbearable awareness — leads him to the truth: there’s no going back, and yet, going forward as he was, is no longer possible. His end is tragic not because he failed to repent, but because he tried — and failed too late.
But he tried.
“He would be good.”“There was purification in punishment.”— Chapter 20
If we deny him even the possibility of redemption because he didn’t meet society’s standards, we erase Wilde’s entire point: that the soul is never immune to conscience. Dorian’s final act is the proof.
4. “The portrait is just evidence, not conscience.”
This is Pro’s most poetic claim, but it misses Wilde’s symbolism. The portrait does not simply “record” Dorian’s deeds. It responds to them. It reacts to thoughts, regrets, cruelty, even the desire to change. Wilde calls it his conscience. A man who lacks that entirely wouldn’t even look. But Dorian stares. He visits it. He fears it. And in the end, he attacks it — not out of pride, but revulsion.
It is not a confession booth — it is a mirror. And when the mirror becomes too real to bear, Dorian doesn’t turn away. He faces it.
That is not irredeemable. That is broken humanity — and that’s all redemption ever asks for.
5. “Redemption isn’t about desire. It’s about completing the process.”
Here’s the fatal flaw in Pro’s position: they argue redemption must be achieved to be real.
But Wilde’s Dorian Gray is a novel about those who wait too long. Dorian doesn’t complete redemption. But he begins it. And that beginning is the heart of the tragedy. His soul isn’t irredeemable — it’s unredeemed, and that’s the point. Wilde wants us to see what happens when one tries to change too late, not when one never cared to try at all.
A monster wouldn’t hesitate. Dorian does. That hesitation is Wilde’s whisper: he could have been saved. He wanted to be. He just didn’t know how.
“While Dorian’s death doesn’t absolve his sins, it proves that conscience never left him. Wilde’s point was never that redemption had to succeed — only that it had to be possible. And in those final moments, it was.”
The Portrait Was Never Hopeless
Dorian Gray is not irredeemable. He is a sinner, a coward, a liar — yes. But he is also haunted, conflicted, desperate. He carries the weight of his crimes not with pride, but with sickness. That burden is proof of his humanity — and humanity is the raw material of redemption.
He dies not as a villain defiant in evil, but as a man crushed by the truth.
That is not damnation. That is tragedy.
If guilt never mattered, Wilde wouldn’t have made it the central ghost that haunts the entire novel.
Oscar Wilde, De Profundis (1905):Where there is sorrow, there is holy ground.”
Wilde wrote this during his imprisonment, reflecting on guilt and suffering as sacred and transformative forces. In context, he describes sorrow not as a punishment, but as a spiritual process that purifies the soul — framing pain as the foundation for redemption.
Round 3
Pro
#5
By the novel's own standards and Victorian standards, Dorian Gray is irredeemable.
To be redeemed, Dorian must complete the process of redemption. If Dorian is capable of completing the process of redemption, then he is redeemable. If he is incapable, then he is irredeemable. Whether Dorian is capable depends on whether he is able to.:
- Experience sincere and genuine guilt or remorse.
- Remain dedicated and committed to the path of change completely.
- Make reparations and do right by those he wronged.
- Be willing to experience and acknowledge the guilt and regret, and embrace them.
- Honoring his duty to turn himself in.
Taking the first step of the process of redemption does not mean that a person is able to complete the rest of the steps. It is impossible and too late for Dorian to complete the process of redemption because.:
- Con admits that Dorian’s guilt and remorse is self-serving. Which makes it superficial and surface-level, the opposite of genuine or sincere.
- The book itself even acknowledges that Dorian cannot achieve change. According to the book’s own standards and evidence, Dorian is incapable. When one has indulged in bad habits for too long, it becomes instinct/second nature. Lord Henry says to Dorian, “You and I are what we are.” The portrait, which is proof of Dorian’s irredeemable nature, shows that Dorian’s attempts to change are sociopathic, and the appearance worsens. Thus instead of remaining dedicated, Dorian concedes that they are right and gives up.
- Dorian doesn’t do enough to fix the reputations or lives of those he destroyed. He makes no attempts to be someone who influences people to pursue good or lead virtuous lives, he does nothing to undo or reverse the damage or corruption of his influence.
- Dorian has no intention of addressing his feelings, or the horror of his crimes. He suppresses them and takes drugs at opium dens, or intoxicates himself to numb his emotions.
- Dorian could come clean about the murder of Basil to the authorities or the fact that he blackmailed Alan Campbell into erasing the evidence. But Dorian, even when he’s trying to be “good” is relieved that Alan has taken his own life, which means his secret is erased and there are no more loose ends.
By these metrics, Dorian has neither adequate remorse/guilt, willingness to change/commitment to reformation, atonement,repentance, accountability. Therefore Dorian is not redeemable.
We have two sources for clues, and then direct evidence. The first source is the yellow book which is Dorian’s bible. The yellow book is a manual guide which is vague, but is explicitly described as encouraging hedonism, self-destructive behaviors, and unpleasant vices. Since this book is what causes Dorian to lead others to suicide, drug addiction, murder, and eventually blackmail. And it’s Dorian’s only means of a moral framework, then Dorian has no more means of guidance. The second source is Lord Henry. Lord Henry remains Dorian’s mentor and role model, and it is Lord Henry who encourages Dorian the whole time.
And then the direct evidence is the portrait. What does the portrait represent? Dorian’s own soul.:
- When he harshly rejects Sibyl Vane and his cruel words cause her suicide, he shrugs it off. Then the man in his portrait features a sinister smile.
- As he further descends into hedonism and sin, the man in the portrait decays and becomes so wickedly unrecognizable that it looks nothing like Dorian. This ugliness represents the collateral damage Dorian has caused. There is either a pattern of suicide, drug addiction, social exile, and tarnished reputations.
- When Dorian commits his first murder, blood appears on the portrait character’s hands.
- Even after reflecting and deciding to change, the character’s face has grown even more twisted and uglier with a sense of hypocrisy and self-righteousness, another form of vanity. Demonstrating that Dorian’s attempts at redemption were false, and that he is incapable of it.
Con states that the struggle for redemption is redemption, but this is drastically oversimplifying it. Because then Hitler, Stalin, and homicidal criminals would all be redeemed if they all decided one day they were sorry. There comes a point in the journey when the amount of damage marks the point of no return, and Dorian’s moment was during the murder of Basil.
And now we are left with the main question. Was Dorian’s final decision an act of cowardice or accountability?
Destroying the portrait does not erase Dorian’s crimes, nor do they mitigate them. On some level, Dorian must recognize this. Dorian could choose to live with the discomfort of his crimes and work to overcome them, but he is not strong enough to accomplish this on his own, and he has no one else in his corner. He could choose to face the justice system like a man, so that Basil’s family and friends could gain closure, but Dorian is not brave enough to do this. The quickest and easiest solution is to therefore destroy the last piece of evidence of his twisted self, hoping that it would remove the embarrassment of being face to face with himself.
“Dorian wonders if his newly found goodness has rescinded the corruption in the picture but when he looks at it, he sees an even uglier image of himself. From that, Dorian understands that he can never be truly redeemed as he only wishes to be absolved of his sins, without truly believing that what he has done is wrong.”
Quoting my round 1 about how christianity was a huge priority at the time in the Victorian Era. Never once does it occur to Dorian to pray, or even ask for forgiveness. When Basil suggests it before Dorian murders him, it is dismissed by Dorian saying, “Those words mean nothing to me now.” They meant nothing to him then, and they never once cross his mind now that he is trying to reverse the portrait’s appearance. This shows that even when he tries to free himself from the pact he made with The Devil, he still doesn’t reach out to God.
It is too late for Dorian Gray.
Con
#6
Pro insists Dorian is incapable of completing redemption by Victorian standards. But his actual argument relies on bombastic expectations—requiring a perfect moral comeback only suited for saints, not tragic literary figures. Wilde didn’t write a moral ledger; he wrote a morality of suffering, an aesthetic of despair.
1. "Dorian’s guilt is superficial" — Pro: Bid farewell to true remorse
Counter: Pro claims Dorian’s guilt is self-serving. However, the Novel directly highlights Dorian’s deep remorse in the opium den:
“Other than when he viewed his marred portrait, … this reflection represents the first time Dorian realizes … and feels any remorse.”
And again:
Dorian’s guilt tortures him relentlessly until he is forced to do away with his portrait.
This isn’t surface-level or fleeting. It’s persistent enough to drive his final act. That’s not shallow — that’s incessant guilt, which shows his consciousness is still intact.
2. "Habit is destiny" — Pro: Dorian is locked in sin
Pro quotes Lord Henry:
“You and I are what we are.”
But note the next line in Novel:
“…the leprosies of sin were slowly eating the thing away.”
That image is active disease, not permanent. It leaves space for change. The portrait's corruption happens over time, and blind spots exist — which Dorian helps to expose by confronting the painting. That doesn’t prove incapability — it proves vulnerability.
3. "Atonement = Public repair" — Pro: Dorian does none
Yes, he doesn’t publicly atone. But wend your gaze inward. The opium den scene again:
“The picture becomes the gauge … he is a man desperate to forget the sins for which he believes he can never be forgiven.”
Dorian isn’t indifferent. He despairs over his inability to forgive himself. That psychological torment shows atonement — he's not oblivious, he’s overwhelmed. Patting himself on the back for public display wouldn’t show redemption — that would be vanity.
4. "He numbs & gives up" — Pro: Dorian retreats
Yes, Dorian visits opium dens and avoids things. But the same source confirms:
“…it made it impossible for him to ‘escape from himself.’”
He runs away, sure — but he can’t escape. That internal resistance proves he’s not dead inside. A truly irredeemable person would live in denial. Dorian cannot erase himself. That matters.
5. "Final act = cowardly, not accountable" — Pro’s showpiece
He stabs Basil’s portrait, not SIBYL’S or ALAN’s names — and Pro says that’s cowardice.
Counter: But the novel itself says:
“Dorian’s guilt tortures him relentlessly until he is forced to do away with his portrait.”
And pictorial symbolism shows that the portrait is his soul. Destroy it, and he ends. But it’s self-destruction with awareness, not cowardly avoidance. He doesn’t flee — he fronts his guilt head-on, and dies admitting it.
6. The Christian Checklist Battle
Pro leans heavily on Victorian/Christian duties — like prayer, confession, punishment.
Counter: The novel places Wilde’s entire aesthetic worldview in opposition to that checklist from its first pages. Wilde’s critiques show that true moral awakening doesn’t always wear Victorian piety—it wears brokenness, silence, and collapse.
And Basil begs for prayer — but:
Dorian claims “those words mean nothing to me now.”
That’s his refusal then. But his final confrontation with the portrait is nothing but confession — to himself. It’s chaotic, undignified, but profane repentance. Wilde writes it not as sainthood, but as soul-shattering human error. That is more than Victorian duty — that's literary truth.
Conclusion
Pro’s checklist argument collapses for three reasons:
- He misreads guilt as cosmetic — Dorian’s agony is ongoing and symbolic of conscience.
- He flips internal punishment into categorical failure — but the portrait's decay invites confrontation, not closure.
- He demands a public absolution that Wilde rejects — because Wilde’s aesthetic morality is not Victorian virtue.
So yes — Dorian Gray might have died without redemption, but he died trying. And in Wilde’s tragic moral universe, that’s everything.
"In Wilde’s universe, trying late is not the same as failing forever."
Round 4
Pro
#7
Thank you for participating in this debate, Vi.
As this is the final round, I shall focus only on rebuttals.
Rebuttals
Counter: Pro claims Dorian’s guilt is self-serving. However, the Novel directly highlights Dorian’s deep remorse in the opium den:
I do acknowledge his guilt was self-serving, but it was originally Con that said this in Round 1.:
Of course, it’s naive, even self-serving — but it’s still a genuine desire.
Of course, it being self-serving diminishes the significance of the desire, as the incentive is not altruism.
That image is active disease, not permanent. It leaves space for change. The portrait's corruption happens over time, and blind spots exist — which Dorian helps to expose by confronting the painting. That doesn’t prove incapability — it proves vulnerability.
The portrait has rotted to the point of becoming irreversible. There is no evidence that the image was capable of reverting back, but there is proof that Dorian demonstrated he is unable to change himself for the better.
Even considering the possibility of change doesn't reverse the fact that this change was Dorian's and Dorian's responsibility to manage alone. Something he lacked the strength or courage to do. He had the privilege, the luck, and the resources but none of the personality qualities or abilities to accomplish it. And there was no one left in his corner by the end, except Lord Henry, who was actively nourishing his downfall.
If Dorian does not have the capacity to achieve redemption, then Dorian is irredeemable.
Dorian died.:
- Without closure or absolution.
- Without people who loved him.
- Without attempting to repair the damage he has done or fix the lives of those he has destroyed.
Experiencing a moment of regret, no matter how profound, is not redemption. The portrait demonstrates this. When Dorian finally attacks the portrait, he switches places with the character. And Dorian's body becomes the physical manifestation of his soul.: Old, wrinkled, deformed, and hideous with corruption and evil.
I have mentioned in Round 1 a standardized formula which is proportional to the wider-scale damage Dorian has caused. These were the basic and minimal requirements he failed to do.:
He did not atone, repent, apologize or ask for forgiveness, nor did he turn himself in and truly reform.
Therefore, Dorian gray is irredeemable and died without redemption.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
RFV
One never knows a person's personal life, and most of the debate 'was argued.
Conduct Tie.
Sources, 'explain the subject, more than 'proof Pros side.
Sources Tie.
Legibility, Both sides were legible, and easy to follow.
Pro had a nice 1,2,3,4,5 but still, close enough for both, tie.
Arguments to Pro,
Though, I think the 'framing of the debate missed a 'little.
Within what 'context is Dorian irredeemable?
If immortal by the painting, that would have been a 'lot of context.
If immortal by soul, well, there's a lot of potential context there as well.
But while Con 'touched on time, they were not as explicit as I would have liked.
I did not find Cons arguments of 'attempted redemption by attacking the painting convincing.
But 'did find their arguments on 'potential regret and conscience never lost in Dorian, good.
The forfeited round hurt a bit for Con, in the sense that 'perhaps more could have been said by Con, to get debate to a tie.
But my vote goes to Pro, for their arguments of the depth of Dorians corruption,
Their arguments of Dorian 'not having regret (Tied up with Con there),
And their arguments of Dorians behavior being self serving with no thought of altruism.
Further thoughts for RFV, in comments #4, #3, #2
the thing i usually note in mr lemming's votes is that he always thinks tooo deeeppp n i appreaciate that so uh thx mr lemming for putting in too much effort for a single debate .... /// meow
∧,,,∧
( ̳• · • ̳)
/ づ
Thanks for your vote!
Title
Dorian Gray is irredeemable.
Hm, in that his actions cannot be forgiven, or in that one should not 'expect him to change?
Description
Tightens debate around the book, loosens interpretation of redemption.
Sir.Lancelot Round 1
Gives some definitions.
As they were not in Description, they and BoP is a bit more a 'suggestion/argument, than 'Requirement in debate.
Foundation, Rejected Redemption Opportunity,
Personally, I think it likely there were 'many opportunities at redemption, but Basil 'is one that we see.
Dorian is a killer, No-turning point,
Well, if Con can find some historical examples of heavily debauched individuals, they might be able to argue that turning 'could occur.
Dorian sold his soul,
Is an interesting one.
Sources, are more about defining clearly the terms, than 'backing Pros arguments, well 'maybe the source on Victorian Virtues.
Con Round 1
Argues against Pros criteria,
Argues one can observe the conflict within Dorian,
Argues against Victorian as goalposts,
"Dorian’s tragedy isn’t that he couldn’t be redeemed — it’s that he tried too late and didn’t know how."
The Portrait = External Guilt,
Murder Does Not = Irredeemable,
Dorian’s Death Is Redemption, Not Damnation.
Round 1 Thoughts
I think Pro has a high bar, of proving Dorian irredeemable.
Con makes some interesting arguments such as Dorians Death being redemption, but I'd view it more as self loathing.
'But Con 'does have their arguments of conflict in Dorian, and why redemption might be possible.
Because of the high bar, and arguments, I'm currently leaning Con, but it's early on.
Pro Round 2
Pros arguments against Dorian's final acts not being redemption, ring with me.
Gives argument of it being a final act of cowardice and attempt at escape, he 'was pretty sore at the painting getting 'worse after his 'attempts at good action, from what I recall.
Of course one 'could argue the painting was lying, but I'm inclined t o believe it 'was showing the truth, that Dorians acts of 'good were falsely given.
Pro raises the question of what would redemption 'take?
This is an interesting one, as it is a point Pro and Con diverge.
"Redemption isn’t a medal granted after five criteria are met. It’s a personal, internal transformation" Con argued in Round 1, and I would agree,
Even if one is unable to make reparations, one can be redeemed as an individual, born anew or transformed. Slow 'or quick.
'But Pro 'did have some definitions in Round 1,
Redeemable - the state of being kept from evil or of improving morally. (Cambridge Dictionary)
Atonement - reparation for a wrong or injury. (Oxford Languages)
Repenting - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one’s wrongdoing or sin. (Oxford Languages)
Accountability - an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one’s actions. (Merriam-Webster)
Alan Campbell is a former friend of Dorian’s, a chemist whom Dorian enlists to help him dispose of Basil’s body.
. . .
Pro makes arguments that the 'Conflict within Dorian, is not Conflict at all, but fear.
And he makes a good argument of it.
. . . Though I might like it if 'both debaters made use of quotations from the book.
I'm again doubtful that redemption 'requires certain actions such as reparations, confession,
Though I do see them 'connected, I view them more as 'signs of a changed person.
SPOILER in Les Misérables, I do not think Jean Valjean needed to confess to his true identity to be redeemed, 'except for the fact that someone would have suffered had he not.
I don't 'remember the murder of Basic being blamed on anyone else in Dorian Gray's story?
Pro makes an argument on how 'deeply into vice Dorians nature has become.
" the only thing that matters is their ability to achieve it."
Ah, and this I think is an important aspect of the debate, and a high bar for Pro.
For. . . I have difficulty in thinking of 'anyone as irredeemable, due to my view of people being nature and nurture, but nurture also overides nature. 'Enough pressure and time, I'd expect could change 'any person.
. . . But one 'can understand the question of Dorian as being 'expected forces.
Pro argues 'any of actions to be self serving and quick.
Pro arguments fit more towards External Guilt and display of actions, mirror.
Not eternal damnation.
Pro makes strong arguments against Dorian Gray having a conflict of good and evil.
Ah, 'another interesting argument, Immortality.
But this could be bad for Pro, as it allows for 'time, and the rare to be expected force.
Were Dorian Gray an ordinary man, old age would likely take him before some force of redemption. But immortality allows for more chances, even small small chances.
Pro makes the arguments against Dorian Gray going for redemption.
Con Round 2
“It had been like conscience to him. He would destroy it.”
— Chapter 20
'Does suggest conflict. Though Pro 'could argue it was unwanted and hated conscience.
A final attempted farewell to any even 'thought of good. Yet such 'still implies an 'ability to feel and be panged by good.
Con makes arguments for the soul not being entirely lost.
"public virtue is often hypocrisy"
I'm still not convinced Dorian tried to repent, by I do agree with Con's arguments of there being 'something left in Dorian.
'But I will need Con to make argument for redemption being 'possible/likely. I say possible/likely, because Con needs to address such arguments of Pro.
Currently leaning tie.
Con makes good arguments against the portrait being 'simply a record of crimes, but as reflection.
. . . But on another hand, does the portrait 'ever show 'anything positive of Dorian? Even the 'smallest bit?
I'm still not highly convinced that it was 'cowardice of punishment as Pro suggests, but simple dislike and hatred of something so ugly and vile, reminder of what he truly was. I think Dorian did not realize he would kill himself.
Still, Con makes decent arguments on conscience never leaving Dorian entirely.
Round 2 Thoughts
While I think Con is doing well on arguing for the existence of conscience, however small in Dorian.
I think Pro manages to counter such arguments in alternate explanations such as cowardice.
That leaves the debate a bit in the middle for me,
'But Cons arguments for redemption have largely been the argument that Dorian 'was attempting Redemption by destroying the painting.
I find Pros arguments for the destruction of the painting more convincing, as well as explanations for Dorians 'Good acts, being self serving.
Leaning Pro
Pro Round 3
Pro argues redemption requires 1 of/or 5 items.
And has argued earlier that Dorian is too deep in corruption for such to be possible for him.
I don't find the 'acts of redemption as important as the change in nature.
One 'could also understand the question of redemption as,
Is Dorian Gray redeemable within the scope of his story?
This would prevent outside greater time and forces of Good people or experiences changing Dorian,
But I 'still think Pro has left himself a weak spot with the Immortality Painting.
I think Hitler, Stalin, and homicidal criminals 'could be redeemed if they felt sorry.
“« If he has a conscience he will suffer for his mistake. That will be his punishment—as well as the prison. »
« But the real geniuses, » asked Razimihin frowning, « those who have the right to murder? Oughtn’t they to suffer at all rven for the blood they’ve shed? »
« Why the word ought? It’s not a matter of permission or prohibition. He will suffer if he is sorry for his victim. Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth, » he added dreamily, not in the tone of the conversation.”
- Crime and Punishment
But Pro makes arguments that Dorian is more concerned with avoiding being caught, than being sorry.
Though Pros argument of Dorian suppressing his emotions with drugs, is counter to his own arguements. It shows 'perhaps an ability for feeling and remorse for others.
Pro makes strong arguments against Dorian (At that time) being likely to change as a person.
And even 'later of being influenced to change.
There's 'still the immortality chink, but it's the final round.
. . . And I suppose even 'with the possibility, many people would fear to try to redeem such a person. Such terrible odds of him changing, for most people, I'd expect.
Con Round 3
"A sense of infinite pity, not for himself, but for the painted image of himself, came over him." Chapter 7 of the Dorian Gray book.
My quoting, not Pro.
Con is still managing to make decent argument for the existence of remorse, though 'personally unrelated to my vote, I'm not convinced of remorse.
Con makes arguments for change over time.
'And makes arguments again of awareness and despair Dorian has of his sins.
I'm not convinced of Dorian knowing he's ending himself, what I see at 'most is him trying to get rid of his conscience and 'any reminder of how ugly he and his actions are.
It's more trying to squash an angel holding a mirror on one's shoulder, than destruction of oneself in admitting folly.
Con criticizes a large part of Pros argument,
Their checklist.
. . . I'm not convinced that Dorian 'ever tried though.
Con 'does convince me that there may have been some feeling and regret in Dorian,
But Pro does a better job in arguing the 'depth of his corruption and lack of any effort to be better.
Round 3
Thoughts, I'm inclined to a tie, though Con was not 'as explicit as I'd like about how much time Dorian had.
"In Wilde’s universe, trying late is not the same as failing forever."
Unfortunately, 4 round debate, and I see a forfeit. I doubt it will effect conduct, but it may effect arguments.
Pro Round 4
Pro argues the 'feeling to be self serving.
"The portrait has rotted to the point of becoming irreversible."
Not so convincing, but Pro makes a point of their being no evidence of the image 'ever reverting.
Though it's 'still possible it 'could have.
Well, Victorian Christian perhaps believe God is in everyone's corner.
But for the moment and context of the story, I would not expect Dorian to find redemption, even if he met every person in his city.
"If Dorian does not have the capacity to achieve redemption, then Dorian is irredeemable."
Con 'still had decent arguments about conscience, and possibility, but Pro had good arguments against Dorian 'ever attempting anything good.
Con Round 4
Forfeit
Tempting.