Donald Trump is NOT Racist: Change my Mind
All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.
With 8 votes and 16 points ahead, the winner is ...
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Voters will vote on the arguments and voting criteria like any other debate. Whether my mind is changed or not has no effect on the voting.
Racism is a pretty agreed upon term- "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others."
So thinking that you are superior to another race.
That is the main definition, but another one could be prejudice or discrimination of another race.
Rules: One must accept my given definitions of racism, and provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things.
I will give a general overview of the debate in round 1, and then Con will start off the arguments. Con will then waive the last round.
On July 16th, 1968 a complaint was filed with the New York City Commission on Human Rights alleging an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York; Specifically, that Fred Trump (Donald Trump's father) refused to rent an apartment to a man because he was black.
A hearing on the complaint was held on October 31st, 1968, before the commission, at which time testimony and evidence were received. The commission found that respondent Fred Trump engaged in an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York.
https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0055.pdf
On October 15th, 1973, the Nixon administration's then acting Attorney General Elliot Richardson filed a complaint on behalf of the United States against Donald Trump, et al, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York. The complaint, inter alia, alleged the following:
1. Trump Management Inc. was a New York corporation doing business in the Eastern District of New York, managing and operating numerous apartment buildings, totaling at least 14,000 dwelling units in the New York area and elsewhere. (These facts were not denied in the Trump's answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )
2. Donald Trump was president of Trump Management Inc. and was responsible for the policies and practices of Trump Management Inc. (This fact was not denied in the Trumps' answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )
3. Donald Trump, et al, through his actions and those of his agents and employees, discriminated against persons because of race in the operation of the apartment buildings, among other ways, by:
a) Refusing to rent dwellings and negotiate for the rental of dwellings with persons because of race and color.
b) Requiring different terms and conditions with respect to the rental of dwellings because of race and color.
c) Making and causing to be made statements with respect to the rental of dwellings which indicate a preference, limitation and discrimination based on race and color.
d) Representing to persons because of race and color that dwellings are not available for inspection and rental when such dwellings are in fact so available.
A copy of this complaint is available for download in PDF format here: https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0005.pdf
The allegations contained within the complaint were preceded and supported by an FBI investigation in to the policies and practices of Trump Management Inc. The FBI records for that investigation are available for download here:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company
The records of that investigation include evidence of discriminatory practices. Some evidence of discriminatory practices are from those of "testers" - People who pose as prospective tenants and inquire as to the cost and availability of apartments. For example, a black tester may inquire as to the availability of an apartment and then a white tester may inquire as to availability soon thereafter. Other evidence supporting the allegations of the complaint include statements from employees and former employees of Trump Management Inc.
The following are some examples of this evidence:
(Excerpt from statement to FBI from a former employee of Trump Management)
I was employed by Trump Management Corporation from February, 1970 to May, 1971 as a Doorman at 2650 Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn, New York. This building is also known as Ocean Terrance.
While employed in this capacity, I was supervised by an individual known to me as [REDACTED] who was employed by Trump Management Corporation as superintendent at 2650 Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn, New York.
[REDACTED] told me that if a black person came to 2650 Ocean Parkway and inquired about an apartment for rent, and he, that is, [REDACTED] was not there at the time, that I should tell him that the rent was twice as much as it really was, in order that he could not afford the apartment.
Pages 34, 35 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
(Another excerpt from statement to FBI by former employee of Trump Management)
I [...] was employed by Trump Management Corporation during the middle two weeks of December, 1973. I was employed as a rental supervisor by Fred Trump. My job was in part to determine the rental problems involved with buildings at Tysens Park, Staten Island.
[...] I asked Fred Trump what his policy was regarding minorities and he said it was absolutely against the law to discriminate. At a later time during my two weeks at Tysens Park, Fred Trump told me not to rent to blacks. He also wanted me to get rid of the blacks that were in the building by telling them cheap housing was available for them at only $500 down payment, which Trump would offer to pay himself. Trump didn't tell me where this housing was located. He advised me not to rent to persons on welfare.
Pages 37 and 38 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
(Excerpt from a statement from a black tester)
[...] black. On Thursday August 17, 1972 [redacted] at approximately 11:30 AM. I told him that I was interested [illegible] apartment or a one bed room apartment, both of which were advertised in the New York Times of August 17, 1972. He told me that the night before [illegible] a party, and that at that time someone else had signed the agreement to rent the apartment. I asked him about the studio apartment, and he told me [illegible] was a lot of junk in it and that they had no keys to that apartment. I ask him [illegible] that an ad could appear in the New York Times stating that an apartment was available when in fact it was not. He told me that if I had [illegible] party, that I could have had the apartment. I asked him if he could at least show me the type of apartment he was talking about, and he said he could not. We then exchanged telephone numbers and I left.
Page 23 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
(Excerpt from a statement from a white tester)
[...] and I am white. On Thursday August 17, 1972 I visited [redacted] a building owned and operated by Fred C. Trump, with [redacted] The New York Times that morning ran an ad for various apartments in this building available for rent. Twenty minutes after [redacted] was told by the superintendent that these apartments had already been rented or could not be seen that day, I entered the renting office and was told by the superintendent's assistant that the apartments were all available and that I could see them. He took me upstairs and showed me the one bedroom apartment for $235, which was vacant, and offered to show me the studio apartments. I said that I did not have time. He said that I could fill out the application for the one bedroom apartment right away if I liked. I said that I did not have time to do so but that I would come back later and departed.
Page 24 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
Contemporary Interview:
On September 29th, 2016, NPR did an interview of one of the testers, Sheila Morse. The following excerpts are from the transcript of that interview -
https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=495955920
SHEILA MORSE: He went in. He met with the superintendent, and the superintendent said, I'm very sorry, but the apartment is rented. It's gone. So the gentleman said to him, well, why is the sign out? I still see a sign that says apartment for rent. And the superintendent said, oh, I guess I forgot to take it down. And that was that.
SIEGEL: You, as a tester, then were sent in to inquire about an apartment in the very same building.
MORSE: Exactly, yes.
SIEGEL: What did they tell you?
MORSE: Oh, they greeted me with open arms and showed me every aspect of the apartment.
SIEGEL: Sheila Morse says she reported back to the Human Rights Commission and then returned to the apartment building in Brooklyn. After she was offered a lease, the man who had tried to rent the apartment and the city Human Rights Commissioner entered the office. And the three of them confronted the building superintendent.
MORSE: He said, well, I'm only doing what my boss told me to do. I am not allowed to rent to black tenants. So the commissioner said, OK, can you take us to your boss? And he said, yeah, I guess I can.
And then we went to the boss, and it was an office building in Coney Island. And when we got there, there was a great big sign that said Trump Management, and it was Donald Trump and Fred Trump, his father.
Other evidence:
The federal complaint against Trump was settled with a "consent decree". The settlement required Trump Management to implement various measures designed to end discriminatory practices at the Trump properties.
https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0034.pdf
The decree began on 07/01/1975. At that time there were a total of 641 black tenants within the Trump properties. On 05/01/1977, nearly two years later, there were then 968 black tenants, an increase of approximately 51%.
Page 3 of https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0040.pdf
Argument:
The available evidence indicates that it is more probable than not that Donald Trump, by his acts and omissions as President of Trump Management Inc., discriminated against black people in housing. The statements from the testers and former employees show that black people were discriminated against at the Trump properties. Donald was president of Trump Management and was the son of the apparent owner, Fred Trump. In this capacity, it is more likely than not that Donald was involved in the day to day operations of Trump Management. Donald likely had a hand in implementing the will of his father, which apparently included discriminating against minorities. The interview of Sheila Morse shows that Donald was regarded as one of the bosses.
Relating this to the resolution -
The debate description provides as follows:
That is the main definition, but another one could be prejudice or discrimination of another race.
Rules: One must accept my given definitions of racism, and provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things.
The evidence here indicates that Trump has done racist things.
poopoo bad boy
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>Reported Vote: Isaiahdude543 // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 4 points to Pro for arguments and conduct, 2 points to Con for sources
>Reason for Decision: Both arguments were convincing but pro was better
>Reason for Mod Action: To award argument points, the voter must (1) survey the main arguments and counterarguments in the debate, (2) weigh those arguments and counterarguments against each other, and (3) explain, based on the weighing process, how they reached their decision. To award sources points, the voter must (1) explain how the debaters' sources impacted the debate, (2) directly assess the strength/utility of at least one source in particular cited in the debate, and (3) explain how and why one debater's use of sources overall was superior to the other's. To award conduct points, the voter must (1) give explicit examples of misconduct, (2) show how this misconduct was either excessive, unfair, or in violation of mutually agreed upon rules of conduct pertaining to the text of the debate, and (3) compare each debater's conduct in the debate. For all points awarded, the voter performs none of the requisite steps to award those points. The voter can access site voting policy here: https://www.debateart.com/rules
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Thanks for the vote. I also viewed Donald's subordination to Fred as a mitigating factor in the housing discrimination case. You're the first person to bring that up. Kudos.
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>Reported Vote: omar2345 // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 1 point to Con for conduct
>Reason for Mod Action: The vote was borderline. By default, borderline votes are ruled to be sufficient.
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You said I "didn't address it".
I said "doubt it would get taken down" because your point is false.
My point logically follows and is not biased.
So I don't see how it would be taken down.
Glad to know your bias.
Doubt it would get taken down.
Still did not adress it. reported.
I'll bring the vote back up. Just have to confirm something.
What about the rule break by con in the final round? He was supposed to waive.
Yay :D
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>Reported Vote: Speedrace // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 3 points to Pro for arguments; 1 point to Con for conduct
>Reason for Mod Action: The vote was borderline. Borderline votes are, by default, considered sufficient.
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>Reported Vote: Wrick-It-Ralph // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 4 points to Con for arguments and conduct
>Reason for Mod Action: The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
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Uh?
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>Reported Vote: Ramshutu // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 4 points to Con for arguments and conduct
>Reason for Mod Action: The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
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I will not disclose who reported what.
Nm lol wrong debTe
Who tried to report my vote?
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>Reported Vote: Pinkfreud08 // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 1 point to Con for conduct
>Reason for Mod Action: The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
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I actually respect that you can vote and have a fair opinion on debates without(for the most part) incorporating your own liberal beliefs.
Ok lol, I think that it’ll be fine :)
I consider this RFD insufficient on args and conduct. Review desired.
The reason that I'm not going to do that is that he didn't use the last round to argue his point. He was discussing the rules. Forfeiting trumps that (pun absolutely intended).
Would you mind deleting and re-casting your vote? I would like you to change the conduct point to a tie, because although I forfeited, con posted in the last round, which was against the rules..."I will give a general overview of the debate in round 1, and then Con will start off the arguments. Con will then waive the last round."
I also gave a reminder in my final round that no conclusions or final assessment be made, but he did anyway. I'm telling you this because I will report it if you don't change it, so I would appreciate it, thx.
Look at pinkfreud's vote. He claims I had poor conduct because "I moved the goalpost," but whether he WAS racist or IS racist is what we were debating the rules over.