Instigator / Pro
36
1495
rating
9
debates
44.44%
won
Topic
#741

Is Jesus the Messiah?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
15
Better sources
12
12
Better legibility
6
6
Better conduct
6
6

After 6 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

David
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
39
1485
rating
91
debates
46.15%
won
Description

Is Jesus the Messiah? Two ancient faiths, Christianity and Judaism hash it out

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@David
@Dustandashes

This debate is being put into the Hall of Fame. Any endorsements you would like with it? You can also name anyone you would like to request write one.

good logic on both sides. I stand by my vote decision. Bse Vote descision ev3r announced.

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@NoodIe

*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: Noodle // Mod action: Removed

>Points Awarded: Tied.

>Reason for Decision: Based on the new Testament vs Old Testament obviously no. Bias from the start but Christians have a variety of apologetics to employ so this is innately a very interesting topic since so many arguments are out there... good logic on both sides.
I'll read

>Reason for Mod Action: No reason is given, rooted in the debate itself, as to why a tie was awarded. While it is good to hear that the voter is interested in the topic, mere interest is best expressed in the comments section.
************************************************************************

Bump

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@Barney

Thanks for a great RFD

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@Dustandashes

Regarding the not enough disk space error when in fact there is a ton of space... Usually that's an error with a partition, in particular the paging file size.

Good news, it's actually an easy and free fix: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/972502/there-is-not-enough-free-space-on-partition-c-error-when-you-try-to-up

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@David

I know next to nothing about computers but I'll take your word for it

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@Dustandashes

Ah. And that's exactly why I bought a mac. I had way too many issues with PCs

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@David

It's an hp notebook, it was running fine until a few months ago where it said it was trying to update windows 10 but didn't have enough disk space, which is not possible because there's literally nothing on it. Since then it won't load pages all the way, and sometimes the browser won't even work I have to restart the computer just to get online. I'm not sure about the warranty, I have to check, it's about a year and a half now

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@Dustandashes

That's odd. What type of computer did you get? Is it still in warranty?

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@David

Well you know it's funny because I actually tried that, when I went to safe the document it said not enough dish space. Which is impossible because my laptop is relatively new. I think my laptop has a virus but I'm not sure. I lost a couple thousand characters from unexpected window closings several times, so at that point I just was trying to get the arguments posted. Sorry about the structure though, I completely understand.

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@Dustandashes

my advice is to always use a word doc or a google doc to write your arguments in and then C&P it into the debate.

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@Barney
@Dustandashes

Yeah - that was my biggest struggle in the debate. It was hard to follow your argumnents and keep them organized. Notice how I made each contention a bolded headline.

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@Barney

Thank you for the advice. Unfortunately I was having (and still am) massive computer issues when having this debate. My tab would crash or shut down in the middle of me typing or the whole window would close unexpectedly. I literally had to email myself a round once so I would not loose it. I apologise for the disorder

Initial thoughts...

First, please use the long description to set rules, such as "that my opponent believes the Torah and the Tanakh to be authoritative, I will also reference the Talmud several times." This will avoid a lot of problems.

Second, if at all possible please use consistent headings. You can share these, number them, and expand the number as needed. Following trains of thoughts through a lot of disorganized text is not fun.

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@David

ill work on making a good one because i have interest in this debate

Bump for better votes

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@David

Can you send me a PM?

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@Our_Boat_is_Right

*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: Our_Boat_is_Right // Mod action: Not Removed

>Points Awarded: None.

>Reason for Mod Action: Votes which do not award points are not subject to review because no standard exists in the COC against by which they can be removed.
************************************************************************

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@bsh1

Alrighty lol cool

Worth a try :D

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@Speedrace

Lol.

I don't do awards exactly, but I am sure your efforts are appreciated.

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@bsh1

Seriously, I think I deserve an award for the sheer amount of long debate votes I've done + this SUPER long vote (it couldn't even fit in the voting box) + taking more than an hour to make this vote

Pls?

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@David
@Dustandashes

Overall, Pro won out. I really feel that Con barely did any rebutting, and he could have done a lot more. Pro won out mainly because he focused a lot on rebuttals, but Con did not respond to a lot of different points. However, both parties still did extremely well. I can’t wait for y’all’s next debate! 😊

*Tied In All Other Categories*

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@David
@Dustandashes

C2: Jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies

Con says that Jesus never built the third and final temple, gathered the Jewish exiles to Israel, or established world peace. Pro doesn't really rebut this but rather points out that since it is stated that the Messiah would die, then how would he have the time to do all of the things mentioned by Con? All Con does in response is add a few words to the scripture, but he doesn't even explain how those words change the meaning of the scripture. He also says that King Agrippa and Cyrus are the two Messiahs referred to, but he states that as if I am supposed to know who they are. I have absolutely no idea, and I'm confused on this point. Anyway, both parties failed to really respond to each other on this, so I'm tieing this point.

C3: Jesus was a false prophet

Con states that Jesus was a false prophet because he claimed to be God, he broke and commanded someone to break the Sabbath, and his prophecies were not fulfilled. Pro first asks Con to clarify his first statement, and Con basically says that God originally revealed himself on Sinai and therefore that must be the only version of him. Pro then points out that God revealed himself to man multiple other times. Con really only responds to one of these scenarios (the Abraham one) but ignores the others, so this rebuttal still counts.

As to the Sabbath, Con clarifies that the issue is that Jesus commanded someone to break the Sabbath. Pro then points out that God allows exceptions to this rule, and that if Jesus is God, then this works. Since I can’t technically presuppose my own opinion of Jesus into this, I have to tie this point.

Finally, Con claims that Jesus’ words were not fulfilled in Mark 9:1. Pro says that this was a reference to Jesus’ Transfiguration, not his second coming. Con simply reiterates his original argument and doesn’t put anymore layers on it. I have to tie this because neither parties really elaborated on it.

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@David
@Dustandashes

Con then explains his view of Isaiah 53 and that it is referring to Jews. However, he doesn't rebut Pro's view of it at all, and neither does Pro rebut Con's view of it. Pro specifically shows why the arm of the Lord MUST be Jesus, while Con only offers reasons as to why he believes Israel fits the description better. "Must be Jesus" beats "fits Israel better." There wasn't enough clash here, so maybe if both parties had responded to each other instead of maintaining completely independent thoughts about it, my vote here would be different.

Finally, Con says that Pro takes the Talmud too literally. Pro rebuts by saying that Con is making a hypocritical argument by then citing the Talmud himself. I'm not sure how valid this rebuttal is mainly because Pro fails to defend the point that Con was attacking when he made this argument. I'm giving this one to Con.

SO, overall, Pro gets his first argument. This was very in-depth. Now I'll move to Con's.

Con's Contentions:

C1: The genealogies of Jesus disqualify him

Con makes the claim that Jesus is not a descendant of David and has no claim to the throne, which disqualifies him as the Messiah. Pro then points out that this means that Jesus was either born of a virgin or was Joseph's biological son and actually had a claim to the throne of David. He also points out the concept of Levirate marriage to explain the two different genealogies and gives an example where an adopted person was still seen as being eligible to his/her father's inheritance. Con then picks option one and, as Pro says, essentially rescinds his argument on this point. I don't see how the other stuff about genealogy contradictions are relevant here. Con challenges Pro to explain how Jesus could have the heritage if he was born of a virgin, but Pro did when he stated how it was shown not to be unreasonable that an adopted person could lay claim to the possessions of his father. Con never responded to this. I'm giving this to Pro.

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@David
@Dustandashes

Here we go! As always, I'll be evaluating this on a premise by premise basis. However, there was not much organization on Pro's part. I will be manually going through to make sure I get all of his.

Pro's Contentions:

Isaiah 53

Pro first offers Isaiah 53:1-12 as a prophecy that he believes is describing Jesus Christ. He says that early Jewish Rabbis even said themselves that it was Jesus being described.

Con responds with a LOT of arguments. I'm not sure if this was completely necessary, but I'll break all of them down.

Con's Responses to Pro's First Argument:

Con first says that we reject vicarious atonement because human sacrifices are outlawed. Pro rebuts this by showing how the verses Con provided don't even apply to the topic Con claimed they did. This was quite evident, and Con did not respond back, so Pro gets this point.

Con says that no one can die for the sins of another person, and he says he'll provide passages for that, but he never does. Pro provides a passage that pretty blatantly states that one's transgressions can be transferred. Con never responded, so this point goes to Pro.

Con says that sins can be forgiven without sacrifices and that no example of a messiah dying has been given. Pro states that the passages given by Con are all exceptions, and even makes the argument that because God inspired Moses and Aaron to build two whole temples then the sacrificial system must still majorly be valid. He also refers back to Isaiah 53 as an example of the Messiah. Con doesn't respond, so Pro gets this point.

Con makes an argument about how Christ being the Passover lamb doesn't make sense. However, this is irrelevant, in my opinion, because Jesus being the messiah or not has nothing to do with his description as a Passover lamb. I'm ignoring this.

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@David

it's not lol just pointing it out cuz u know all these jew's be hella religious

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@Our_Boat_is_Right

Of course i would lol. Why is that a bad thing?

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@David

of course a jew would accept lmao

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@Dustandashes

A second part would be sweet

Bump
U
M
P

Who would like to see a part two of this debate? Reply with thumbs up

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@David

No worries 👍

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@Dustandashes

I misunderstood your argument

Just for the record I do affirm biblical inerrancy. I explicitly stated this in the debate. I'm not sure where my opponent got otherwise

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@David
@Dustandashes

I'll probably vote tomorrow

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@David
@Dustandashes

This was an awesome debate, as to ideas, I am terrible at coming up with them so I'll leave that up to you guys lol, I'm not super familiar with the differences between Christianity and Judaism barring the belief in Jesus' divinity.

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@Dustandashes

Thank you! You were also great! I enjoyed this immensely

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@David
@Wrick-It-Ralph
@Speedrace

A sincere thank you to my opponent for this debate, another debate between me and virtuoso is in the talk stages. I would like to hear from you guys, what would you like to see us debate next time?

@virtuoso, you were a great opponent

I made an error in my least round. I stated the three kings we're Ahabs sons. Some of them were his grandsons

EDIT: I STATED THAT THE THREE KINGS WERE SONS OF JEZEBEL... SONS AND GRANDSONS WAS MORE CORRECT

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@David

Just using that scripture? seems too vague on its own to assert jesus as messiah.

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@Melcharaz

Perhaps we can debate whether or not Isaiah 7:14 predicts the virgin birth of Jesus or the proper translation of HaAlmah

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@Wrick-It-Ralph

Jesus is the literal word of God. and his relation is son regarding nature, because how could a spirit have physical children? No, there is a nature that is imparted and jesus is the the son because he was the firstborn of God, His word. Which created all things for himself.

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@Chitty-Chitty

That's probably the most popular belief among Christians.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph

I'm Baptist, and my sect says he is God, but I recognize that people believe differently.

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@Chitty-Chitty

Most Christians don't believe that he's god's son, but rather god himself. Some religions just think he was a profit, Mormons think that Jesus is the actual son of god and not the same person at all.

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@Chitty-Chitty

Depends on the sect.

If I recall correctly, Jesus was God's son in spirit and Joseph's in flesh.

Have either of you considered the possibility that there is no messiah and that religion is stupid?