1500

rating

16

debates

40.63%

won

Topic

#942
# 2+2=4: Change my Mind

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Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

With 11 votes and 22 points ahead, the winner is ...

Our_Boat_is_Right

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1616

rating

32

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62.5%

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It is my position that when the number "2", as used in standard american math, is added with another "2", you get the number "4". No semantics allowed. These numbers are used in American math, primarily school. I will waive, first round, con will waive last. Failure is loss of argument and conduct point.

Round 1

2+2=4 in every school system in America. This is my position. Con tries to change my mind. No semantics. I waive.

Well in sex-ed if you take 2 in relationship with people you get 1 child. So 2 people plus another 2 people equals 2 kids.

Mic drop

Round 2

Notice I said "math," not "health." If we were talking about reproduction, then that would be true. But we are not. We are talking about public school math. I also said the number "2," not 2 people. I used the "+" and "=" as in math. If I were talking about health, I wouldn't have used math terms. This is also a semantic argument. I made clear that it was math and felt everyone knew I was talking about math. I applaud the effort by con tho XD

You want math, I got you dawg

There is a field named abstract algebra (wiki) which defines and allows you to create pretty much any mathematical context you wish.E.g. let’s create a thing, called group where 2+2=4, WILL NOT hold, but 2+2=2, actually WILL be true. The definition of group states (wiki) that in order for algebraic structure to be called a group we have to do the following:

So... back to question. Is 2 plus 2 always 4? The correct answer is:

- Define a set of elements (which may or may not be finite). We define a set of 2 elements 2,2,4
- Define a single operation. Let’s define a single operation ‘plus’ which we will denote as ++ for simplicity (Although, we can use any sign we wish, e.g. $$ or ∗∗ if you think it suites you)
- Make sure our group satisfy some group axioms. We will first list and explain then and then define our elements accordingly. The axioms are the following:
**Closure**. The result of operation between any 2 elements of the group should still be part of the group. (In our case it means that regardless of what you do with 4 and 2 and in what order the result should always be either 4 or 2)**Associativity.**For any 𝑎,𝑏,𝑐a,b,c the following should hold true: 𝑎+(𝑏+𝑐)a+(b+c) =(𝑎+𝑏)+𝑐(a+b)+c where ()() shows which operation should take precedence**Identity elements.**There should be a**unique**element (let’s call it ‘𝑒e’) which is part of the group and for any element 𝑎a (including 𝑒e. Any means naturally ANY element of group) the following equation should hold true 𝑒+𝑎=𝑎+𝑒=𝑎.e+a=a+e=a.**Inverse elements.**For any element 𝑏b from group there exists and element 𝑎a from group, such that following equation holds true 𝑎+𝑏=𝑏+𝑎=𝑒a+b=b+a=e (where e is and identity element)Not we have to suffice this 4 axioms in order for set of elements {2,4} and operation + to be called a group.

- 4+4=2. Why? Because any element in group should have an inverse element. What is an inverse element for 4? Well. it’s 4. Nobody have stated that the inverse element can not be the same element!
- 2+4=4. Because 2 in an identity element. This also defines 4 at inverse element for 2. So now 4 is inverse element for itself AND for 2. (Again nobody have stated that the same element can not be inverse element for more then one element)
- 4+2=4. Because 2 in an identity element.
- 2+2=2. Finally. We are here! Why is this correct? The short answer is because we said so.

**Closure**axiom is trivial. We can clearly see that there is no other element apart from 2 and 4 which is produced by all 4 possible combinations of 2 and 4 and + operation between them**Associativity**maybe harder to prove. One of the ways is to check whatever ALL possible equations such as 𝑎+(𝑏+𝑐)=(𝑎+𝑏)+𝑐.a+(b+c)=(a+b)+c.Hold true.In our case it's rather easy, because we only have 2 elements in group, thus only 8 possible equations.- Our
**Identity element**is 2 and the equation defined in axiom holds true (2 + 4 = 4 + 2 = 2) - Each element has an
**inverse element**. Inverse element is 4 for element 4. Inverse element for 2 is also 4.

So... back to question. Is 2 plus 2 always 4? The correct answer is:

**It depends**. Depends on what algebraic structure we are dealing with. What are the elements of this structure and what exactly does ‘plus’ mean.REAL Mic Drop

Round 3

I was never talking about this weird math concept. This is semantics, which is against the rules. In the public school system, 2+2=4. They teach basic math skills for later classes like algebra, calculus, and almost any math program. Abstract algebra is not taught and not a standard in public schools. Nice try, but you lose. Good debate. You waive last round, per the rules.

waive, though evidence for connection of abstract math and real algebra tough in schools are in comments

Gracias senor

Fair point. I'll delete my vote.

It doesn't matter what he thought, it still evened out death's vote bomb.

he said it was countering Ramshutu, not Death

He was countering death23's vote bomb.

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Vote Reported: RationalMadman // Mod Action: Not Removed

Reason for mod action: Troll debates are not moderated, per the site voting policy guidelines. No moderation action is appropriate on this vote.

A troll debate is any:

Competition-style debate (e.g. rap battle, talent show, poetry competition)

Debate primarily designed to be humorous or facetious or containing primarily humorous or facetious content

Debate on a truism (e.g. "a bachelor is someone who is unmarried")

Since this debate is a truism, no action is taken.

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But math is so hard... 1-7=0 right?

/sarcasm

A counter vote will will include conduct

XD lol

or if you don't like me or you hate both of us like Omar! Vote whatever, who cares.

lol

GUYS, its a troll debate and not modded, so if you don't like boat, vote for me!

Thanks.

A truism is defined as "a statement that is obviously true and says nothing new or interesting." In this case, this meets the definition.

Vote bomb is still a vote bomb

This is not a truism. I have proved that you via abstract math you 2+2 can equal 2. I have also proved that the concept connects the algebra taught in schools.

lol its not like its gonna make a difference anyway

Truism debates are troll debates defined by the CoC.

lol im not desperate for wins u literally just violated the rules...

You did nothing wrong. Someone reported your vote and I determined that it did not need to be removed. Anytime someone reports a vote, I will tag the person who gets reported and will give them an explanation for any mod decision that I make.

I...? What? What happened? What did I do? I'm so confused... I was just adding my opinion??

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Vote Reported: WolframMagic // Mod Action: Not Removed

Points awarded: 4 points to pro for arguments and conduct

Reason for mod action: Troll debates are not moderated, per the site voting policy guidelines. No moderation action is appropriate on this vote.

A troll debate is any

Competition-style debate (e.g. rap battle, talent show, poetry competition)

Debate primarily designed to be humorous or facetious or containing primarily humorous or facetious content

Debate on a truism (e.g. "a bachelor is someone who is unmarried")

Since this debate is a truism, no action is taken.

*******************************************************************

So file that away for future reference: at least one mod and one top notch debater might vote for a persuasive kritic or semantic arg because they consider a truism debate essentially fair game. Franklin might have won this debate by jumping on "American Math" or even just by calling foul on the premise.

No,it was a waive. I said something was posted in the comments, you stickler

Glad to hear fun was had.