thoughts on israeli war - many libs dont make sense

Author: n8nrgim 5 months ago

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11.21.2023 11:53PM

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11.21.2023 11:53PM

this is a land dispute. land disputes go back as long as life came to earth. it's not clear who should have the right to what. but it's generally good to negotiate with each other and live in peace. that's why palestine and israel should live in peace, and a two state solution is ideal.... except to say, israel shouldn't have to deal with terrorists killing them. why are liberals defending hamas? or is it just palestine that they are defending? dems like to call out conservatives for antisemite behavior from conservatives... but it's actually mostly coming from the dem base. even if those libs aren't pro hamas and are only pro palestine... what's up with that? no one is right in a land dispute like this, except it's always fair to defend ourselves like israel is doing.

i dont know much about this dispute... and am open to new persepctives/info, but this is the way i see it from my limited perspective.

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11.21.2023 11:57PM

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11.21.2023 11:57PM

Pro-Palestine = Pro-Hamas.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas.

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11.22.2023 12:03AM

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11.22.2023 12:03AM

i see slogans like 'free palestine' from libs? free them from what? are they being deprived their rights? maybe i'm not fairly characterizing these libs but i just dont understand taking positions like 'pro palestine'. is 'pro palestine' just a way to say 'they deserve a seat at the table'? if that's all it is, it's merely posturing to say 'pro paelstine', cause that's what the large majority of folks already say.

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11.22.2023 12:38AM

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11.22.2023 12:38AM

It looks like it boils down to a Lotta ignorance and knee jerk reactions from libs

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11.22.2023 06:57AM

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11.22.2023 06:57AM

I think there is some misrep from many sides to this.

In part there is some legitamacy in trying to minimize civilian casualties and seperate hamas from civilians.

This is hard because we really dont know what its like in that area. We dont know who supports who but there seems to be a generalized anti Israel from Gaza

I think there is more going on then just land grab though. Maybe that is what Israel is doing i dont personally know. But hamas is out to just kill.

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11.22.2023 07:29AM

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11.22.2023 07:29AM

Shame really.

A few million people who have grabbed a lot of sympathy from around the World, but a few million people who the sympathisers wouldn't really want to share their backyard with.

Can you blame them?

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11.22.2023 10:13AM

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@ILikePie5

Pro-Palestine = Pro-Hamas.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas.

Wouldn't be the first time people supported corrupt governments because someone on TV or in a College seminar told them to...

Oftentimes, 2 corrupt governments wage war and there shouldn't be any obligation to support either of them.

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11.22.2023 10:14AM

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@n8nrgim

this is a land dispute.

I doubt Hamas would stop killing Jews even if they were to conquer Jerusalem. It's not simply a land dispute.

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11.22.2023 01:33PM

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11.22.2023 01:33PM

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

And we have cultivated the earth

And we have harvested the wheat

We have picked the lemons

And pressed the olives

And the whole world knows our soil

And the whole world knows our soil

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

And we have thrown stones at

Soldiers and police

And we have fired missiles

At our enemies

And the whole world knows our struggle

And the whole world knows our struggle

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

And we will liberate our land

From imperialism

And we will build our land

To socialism

And the whole world will witness

And the whole world will witness

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long, long, long live Palestine

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

Long live Palestine and crush Zionism

https://youtu.be/wzFqhMFMzp4?si=qdIQiKPiY2zPcMg2

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11.22.2023 03:01PM

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11.22.2023 03:01PM

Isn't it The God of Evolution's plan to wipe out all religious people?

7 days later

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11.30.2023 02:30PM

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@ILikePie5

Pro-Palestine = Pro-Hamas.

no, it's not. I assume you hate joe biden and the democrats. So you are not pro-democratic party. does that mean you also hate america and all the american people? You can oppose a government or even hate a government and still support the people of that country.

For example, I support the people of Israel. They have a right to exist and be happy. Their government are genocidal monsters who are murdering 10's of thousands of innocent people. I support the palestinians. Their "government" are genocidal monsters who murdered thousands of people.

But Hamas being monsters does not justify the mass murder of civilians. Some civilian casualties are inevitable in war, but Israel is WAY over the line. They've bombed hospitals, refugee camps etc. They told people move to area X because we are going to bomb area Y. Then proceeded to bomb them as the civilians went to area X. Then bombed area X too for good measure.

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11.30.2023 02:39PM

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@HistoryBuff

Maybe the left will wake up to the fact that media propaganda isn't telling the whole story, be it in Palestine, Iraq, or Ukraine.

Elite wealthy people in the media have been masters of the left long enough.

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11.30.2023 03:22PM

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@Greyparrot

Maybe the left will wake up to the fact that media propaganda isn't telling the whole story, be it in Palestine, Iraq, or Ukraine.

i mean, I don't know who you mean by "the left". Lots of people fall for media propaganda. I would say the percentage is MUCH higher on the right than the left.

but as for me personally, I know the media adds their own spin. And most media in the west adds a pro-israel spin. They are actively trying to downplay the atrocities the IDF has carried out.

Elite wealthy people in the media have been masters of the left long enough.

what? The koch brothers and a few other billionaires fund a very large percentage of right wing media. The right is entirely run by elite wealthy people. So complaining about the left doing this just seems weird. They certainly have the same problem, but not nearly to the same extent as the right.

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11.30.2023 03:31PM

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@HistoryBuff

Most MSM is run by leftist billionaires, from Gates to Bezos. I see the problem is pretty big there.

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11.30.2023 03:32PM

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@Greyparrot

Most MSM is run by leftist billionaires, from Gates to Bezos. I see the problem is pretty big there.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen on the left too. It certainly does. But virtually all right wing media is funded by rightwing billionaires. Do you acknowledge that it is equally a problem for the right?

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11.30.2023 03:36PM

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@HistoryBuff

It's not an equal problem because there are many more leftist billionaires in the game with more money. It's all about control.

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11.30.2023 03:40PM

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@Greyparrot

It's not an equal problem because there are many more leftist billionaires in the game with more money.

you're kidding right? There are very few actually leftist billionaires. I can think of one or 2. You don't become a billionaire if you want to help people. Because if you did, you would have used that money to actually help people. Billionaires are overwhelmingly right wing. Because right ideology is designed to make them richer. There are some billionaires who pretend to be left because it benefits them financially to do so. But when it comes to actual policy they want to push, it is usually pretty right wing stuff.

But now that I write this, you are probably just using "left" to mean social issues. If you only look at social issues and completely ignore all other types of policy, then you could argue there are lots of left wing billionaires. But if you look at the policy they actually push for, most of them definitely do not qualify as "left".

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11.30.2023 03:57PM

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@HistoryBuff

Yes, American billionaires reached further than ever into pockets this US midterm election, and they overwhelmingly gave to Republican candidates.
Of the record-breaking $881 million billionaires have donated to US political parties this midterm election cycle, nearly three-quarters came from the top 20 donors alone. Of these 20 who rank among the wealthiest population—who became even richer during the pandemic—14 back Republicans, a new report from the non-profit organization Americans for Tax Fairness calculates.

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11.30.2023 04:02PM

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11.30.2023 04:02PM

This comment was on the Internet by Stormcloud

When doctors found smoking caused cancer, republicans sided with the tobacco industry
When Democrats requested for stricter gun control to keep guns away from certain individuals or certain type of guns from individuals, Republicans sided with the gun lobbyists and arms manufactures
When scientists realized increasing carbon dioxide causing climate change, republicans sided with the fossil fuel industry.
When data concluded gas stoves inside closed environments increased asthma and cancer, Republicans mumbled something about freedom
When Democrats push for clean/renewable energy sources, republicans sided with coal, natural gas and hydro citing “what if the wind doesn’t blow or sun don’t shine”
When scientists/doctors provided safety guidelines to keep people safe from COVID, the Republicans sided with a self-proclaimed smartest man in the world while he held rallies after rallies culminating in more death
When democrats pointed out the bill of rights guarantees Americans freedom to religion and freedom from religion, the republicans sided with the religious zealots and called it war on Christmas and Christians
When Democrats pointed out human rights belongs to all regardless of color, status, sexual orientation, religious affiliation/non-affiliation, the Republicans accused them of being woke and Anti-American
When Democrats called for unity, Republicans aligned themselves with religious zealots, conspiracy theorists and hate groups
The once proud Grand Old Party is no more!

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11.30.2023 04:17PM

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@HistoryBuff

So Bezos is right-wing? Odd take, but ok.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/08/07/the-politics-of-jeff-bezos/

It's quite common for billionaires to signal left on social issues while embracing the traditional authoritarian role of the government subsidizing corporations and billionaires. Wolves in sheep's clothing. So much so, they even start to believe it themselves! The propaganda literally writes itself for them. Most Democrats since FDR have enjoyed the cozy relationship between industry giants and political donations.

Do you think Disney and Budweiser actually believe their own propaganda? It's just a means to control those who have little control.

I doubt Bezos himself believes half the stuff far-left WAPO prints, but allows it as a means for control.

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11.30.2023 04:33PM

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@Greyparrot

So Bezos is right-wing? Odd take, but ok.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/08/07/the-politics-of-jeff-bezos/

I will break this down, but I think to start you may have a misguided opinion on what left wing is. If a position has like 60% support from the public, that is not a left wing position. that is the centrist position. Also, did you read this source. None of these are leftwing positions. Not one.

He gave big to defend gay marriage last year.

polls say around 70% of americans support gay marriage. So it isn't a left wing position. It is the overwhelming majority opinion.

2. He's been described as a libertarian.

this point just confirms he has right wing policy positions.

3. He's mostly given to Democratic candidates.

this isn't leftwing. All rich people donate money to politicians to get personal gain.

4. His mother and stepfather were big supporters of charter schools.

charter schools are a right wing thing.

5. Amazon's PAC gives to both parties:

this just further confirms he isn't left wing.

It's quite common for billionaires to signal left on social issues while embracing the traditional authoritarian role of the government subsidizing corporations and billionaires. Wolves in sheep's clothing. So much so, they even start to believe it themselves! The propaganda literally writes itself for them. Most Democrats since FDR have enjoyed the cozy relationship between industry giants and political donations.

are you aware that you aren't describing leftwing positions? The government helping corporations is not a leftwing position. The democrats certainly do that. The republicans do it even more. That is a corporatist position, it isn't left or right.

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11.30.2023 04:36PM

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@HistoryBuff

Like I said, this isn't about Ideology, it is about control. Democrat and Republican are labels for the same thing. Control.

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11.30.2023 04:45PM

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@Greyparrot

Like I said, this isn't about Ideology, it is about control. Democrat and Republican are labels for the same thing. Control.

then why were you talking about leftwing and right wing? if your issue is just control, then both right and leftwing are equally bad to you. They both want control, just for different reasons.

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11.30.2023 04:50PM

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@HistoryBuff

It's just the costume they wear that works. Right now, the left-wing costume is very popular for billionaires.

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11.30.2023 05:10PM

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@Greyparrot

It's just the costume they wear that works. Right now, the left-wing costume is very popular for billionaires.

I mean, maybe a little. But not really. Most people would not say Jeff Bazos is left-wing. I would guess it is just people who consume right wing media that say that. The right labels anyone who isn't really right wing, as left wing. Jeff bazos is kind of center right in the policy he supports. So it's weird that you would use him as an example of a left wing billionaire.

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11.30.2023 05:15PM

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@HistoryBuff

He owns WAPO, clearly he isn't afraid to wear that skin when it suits him. If his ownership was actually about ideology, WAPO would be promoting someone else to control the people.

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11.30.2023 05:37PM

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@Greyparrot

He owns WAPO, clearly he isn't afraid to wear that skin when it suits him. If his ownership was actually about ideology, WAPO would be promoting someone else to control the people.

That is not an argument for him being left or right wing. You haven't pointed to a single thing he has done or belief he holds that is left wing. Yet you believe he is. this suggests to me that you have believed the narrative coming from right wing billionaires on fox (or one of the other billionaire funded right wing media source)

Bezos is like most billionaires. He wants the things that benefit him. And that is right wing economic ideology. cutting regulations so he is free to make employees pee in bottles and not be able to unionize. Cutting taxes for the rich and corporations so he doesn't have to pay back into the system he profits off of. He has some centrist social positions, but he is right wing in every way that matters.

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11.30.2023 05:39PM

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@HistoryBuff

And that is right wing economic ideology.

Control is a third ideology. Left and right are barely distinguishable American ideologies in comparison. Your posts suggest that the illusion of choice and the existence of left and right actually exist. Again, Bezos's far-left WAPO is all about control. It's very effective because people believe the lie that if someone wears the left wing skin, that they cannot exert control over those who have little control.

If common people believed Republicans actually wanted to dismantle the institutions of power and control, every Billionaire would convert to the Republican skin overnight to perpetuate the scam. The scam perpetuated by the 3rd class of elites in control. The government class today holds all the power over both the bourgeoisie and the common poor worker. Marx would have really been shocked.

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11.30.2023 05:53PM

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@Greyparrot

Control is a third ideology. Left and right are barely distinguishable in America in comparison. Your posts suggest that the illusion of choice and the existence of left and right actually exist.

left and right do exist. There are just policy areas where both parties agree. Foreign policy, handing as much money as possible to corporations etc.

But I mean, alleviating student debt, providing health care to the poor, these are left positions. Cutting taxes for the rich, targeting minorities at every opportunity, these are policies of the right. and they are very distinguishable between the 2 parties.

Again, Bezos's far-left WAPO is all about control. It's very effective because people believe the lie that if someone wears the left wing skin, that they cannot exert control over those who have little control.

I really am not sure what you are talking about here. WAPO is more corporatist than left. But I don't read it, so that is just my impression.

If common people believed Republicans actually wanted to dismantle the institutions of power and control, every Billionaire would convert to the Republican skin overnight to perpetuate the scam.

umm what? that would be unpopular. so I doubt billionaires would want to get behind that. What you think of as "control", is what most people would describe as a functioning modern society. obviously this can be taken to far, but most people wouldn't want to "dismantle the institutions of power and control". Because the real world results of that would be poor people getting poorer, losing access to health care, public services collapsing etc.

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11.30.2023 05:56PM

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11.30.2023 05:56PM

But I mean, alleviating student debt,

That's a head scratcher for sure considering it's the poor working stiff paying the bills of the most elite class of people.... more proof that the left ideology is insignificant compared to the ideology of control.