Libertarian party logic

Author: TheUnderdog 11 months ago

Posts

Total: 24

Topic's author

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.08.2023 05:24PM

Me: Should undocumented immigrants who don't murder get government paid for healthcare?

LP: NO! THAT IS BIG GOVERNMENT SOCIALISM!

Me: Should American Citizens who do murder get government paid for healthcare?

LP: Yes. The State should take care of all prisoners in jail at the taxpayer's expense because we believe the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment.

Me: How about lets treat undocumented immigrants who don't murder better than American Citizens that do murder. I'm anti UHC and pro death penalty.

U=Undocumented immigrants getting government paid for healthcare.

M=Murderers getting government paid for healthcare.

\cap=Intersection

^C=Opposite

All of the following combinations make sense of who gets government paid for healthcare even if I don't personally agree with it:

1. U \cap M

2. U \cap M^C

3. U^C \cap M^C

My ideal is bolded.

This option does not (but it's the status quo of our country):

U^C \cap M

It's what the libertarians back.

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.08.2023 05:40PM

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@TheUnderdog

So jail all illegal migrants and provide them with "jail welfare?"

I am OK with that. It's a lot cheaper than the current system.

IwantRooseveltagain

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,597

IwantRooseveltagain

12.08.2023 07:33PM

I am OK with that. It's a lot cheaper than the current system.

That’s coming from someone who doesn’t earn enough to pay Federal income taxes.

n8nrgim

Debates: 0

Posts: 1,004

n8nrgim

12.08.2023 08:00PM

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@TheUnderdog

i can see how it's ridiculous to treat illegal immigrants who are otherwise law abiding, worse than usa citizen murderers... except, it's fair to remember that those murderers are US citizens and there are rights that we say should go along with being a US citizen. if anything though, if we wanna be more consistent, it shouldn't be treating illegal immigrnts better... it should be treating murderers worse.

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.08.2023 08:07PM

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@n8nrgim

there are rights that we say should go along with being a US citizen.

Rights aren’t rights if someone can take them away. They’re privileges. That’s all we’ve ever had in this country, is a bill of temporary privileges. And if you read the news even badly, you know that every year the list gets shorter and shorter. You see all, sooner or later. Sooner or later, the people in this country are gonna realize the government does not give a fuck about them! The government doesn’t care about you, or your children, or your rights, or your welfare or your safety. It simply does not give a fuck about you! It’s interested in its own power. That’s the only thing. Keeping it and expanding it wherever possible.

-Carlin

Best.Korea

Debates: 354

Posts: 10,516

Best.Korea

12.08.2023 08:15PM

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@Greyparrot

Rights aren’t rights if someone can take them away.

Every right can always be taken away. There is no magical barrier around a person to make the person untouchable.

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.08.2023 08:18PM

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@Best.Korea

Every right can always be taken away.

The illusion of rights mirrors the illusion of choice and also the illusion of Democracy.

The things that matter in this country have been reduced in choice, there are two political parties, there are a handful insurance companies, there are six or seven information centers, but if you want a bagel there are 23 flavors. Because you have the illusion of choice.

-Carlin

Best.Korea

Debates: 354

Posts: 10,516

Best.Korea

12.08.2023 08:27PM

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@Greyparrot

Thats because in democracy, majority rules.

Majority of people cant even fix a simple computer problem, cant create good marriage for themselves, fail morally in every way, fight each other all the time, fail at most simple things in life, and believe everything they are told by news.

But sure, they can run a country (wink wink).

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.08.2023 08:42PM

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@Best.Korea

Thats because in democracy, majority rules.

We don't have a democracy. We have the illusion of a democracy run by oligarchs and lobbyists. They rule.

#10

Best.Korea

Debates: 354

Posts: 10,516

Best.Korea

12.08.2023 09:04PM

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@Greyparrot

Thats great news.

#11

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.08.2023 09:10PM

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@Best.Korea

Well said.

10 days later

Topic's author

#12

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.19.2023 01:36AM

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@Greyparrot

So jail all illegal migrants and provide them with "jail welfare?"

I am OK with that. It's a lot cheaper than the current system.

It won't be cheaper and that's free housing, healthcare, and food, all paid for by the taxpayer. Libertarians are against this.

Topic's author

#13

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.19.2023 01:44AM

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@n8nrgim

except, it's fair to remember that those murderers are US citizens and there are rights that we say should go along with being a US citizen.

Which particular rights? The right to vote? There are some American Citizen adults that I think are too stupid to vote. I'll show you what I mean:

I had to vacation in the Ozarks. There I meet a woman from Arkansas. I tell her to guess what state I'm from based on my accent (I'm from CT, but she doesn't know that yet). Her 1st guess is Massachusetts. I tell her I'm from a state that borders Massachusetts.

Her next guess is Michigan.

I know she is an adult American Citizen and I don't know what party she more strongly affiliates with. It doesn't matter. That person is too stupid to be allowed to vote I think.

If she guessed Maine, that would be fair (Maine doesn't border Massachusetts, but it would be close). She guesses fucking Michigan.

I think everyone should be able to pass the citizenship test to vote whether immigrant or Citizen.

if anything though, if we wanna be more consistent, it shouldn't be treating illegal immigrants better... it should be treating murderers worse.

This approach I agree with. Murderers should get death; harmless undocumented immigrants shouldn't have their liberties treaded on by the state.

#14

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.19.2023 02:53AM

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@TheUnderdog

jail welfare is far cheaper than regular welfare.

Topic's author

#15

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.19.2023 03:43AM

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@Greyparrot

The Economic Costs of the U.S. Criminal Justice System - AAF (americanactionforum.org)

The United States spends nearly $300 billion annually to police communities and incarcerate 2.2 million people

This is over $135,000 per prisoner per year.

No person in this country gets $135K a year as a welfare payment.

#16

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.19.2023 11:17AM

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@TheUnderdog

You included the costs of policing and courts. We already pay for border patrol and ICE and courts,

https://youtu.be/QQfvUNaPvgk

If you only look at the cost of the facilities, they are far cheaper than putting illegals in hotel rooms.

Topic's author

#17

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.19.2023 02:49PM

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@Greyparrot

You included the costs of policing and courts. We already pay for border patrol and ICE and courts,

The $300 billion figure I cited was for all prisoners in the US.

If you only look at the cost of the facilities, they are far cheaper than putting illegals in hotel rooms.

Or you could do neither and have the government have a hands off approach and not deport anybody under any circumstances.

#18

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.19.2023 02:56PM

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@TheUnderdog

The $300 billion figure I cited was for all prisoners in the US.

You took the total cost of policing and courts(alot) and divided it by the prisoners (not many compared to the general population)

For that number to mean anything, you would have to fabricate a society with no policemen, lawyers, DA's, or courts. Good luck with that.

Again, the cost of a prison, especially a voluntary prison with no guards, is far cheaper than a hotel room or a modern freshly built shelter to standard code. If the illegal immigrants don't like the prison, they can return to their home country.

Or you could do neither and have the government have a hands off approach...

That is the status quo for San Francisco where massive tent cities are allowed to exist. But police and courts still have to be paid, regardless.

Topic's author

#19

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.19.2023 03:08PM

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@Greyparrot

You took the total cost of policing and courts(alot) and divided it by the prisoners (not many compared to the general population)

In terms of merely corrections cost, it costs about $90 billion/2.2 million prisoners= $41000/prisoner.

It's still way more expensive than welfare.

You could pay for neither and just let the undocumented exist in society while giving them no government benefits even if it means their children starve. Low taxes means some poor people are going to starve, and I'm ok with that. It doesn't matter if they are poor hippies or poor rednecks. I prefer the top 1% to the bottom 1%; the top 1% actually makes society better by innovation.

That is the status quo for San Francisco where massive tent cities are allowed to exist. But police and courts still have to be paid, regardless.

San Fran doesn't go after Fetanyl.

Replacing ICE with FCE goes after the undocumented less and goes after Fetanyl more because if ICE goes into an immigrant heavy neighborhood, they aren't deporting anyone. If FCE does the same thing (and they advertise they are only going after Fetanyl dealers), then they will have an easier time finding people who are bringing in pure Fetanyl and killing unsuspecting children for advertising purposes and behead them in public painkiler free with their blood and organs being donated to save the lives of American Patriots.

#20

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.19.2023 05:06PM

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@TheUnderdog

In terms of merely corrections cost...

Again, you are adding the costs of enforcement. I am only discussing the actual shelters. A hotel room is more expensive to build and maintain than a prison room. A prison room is more expensive than a tent, but more humane.

Topic's author

#21

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.19.2023 08:32PM

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@Greyparrot

A hotel room is more expensive to build and maintain than a prison room. A prison room is more expensive than a tent, but more humane.

Prisons need guards; and that's going to add to the cost. Hotel rooms for the undocumented don't need nearly as many guards.

How about just execute murderers and rapists so no money has to be spent taking care of them?

Cutting taxes means some people have to die (with few exceptions, but this isn't one of them), and libertarians (and I) are ok with that. It's the cost of cutting taxes.

#22

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.19.2023 09:59PM

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@TheUnderdog

Prisons need guards; and that's going to add to the cost.

You don't need guards for illegal aliens, just busses to take them back home when they get tired of living in a prison room.

Topic's author

#23

TheUnderdog

Debates: 5

Posts: 4,340

TheUnderdog

12.19.2023 10:06PM

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@Greyparrot

You don't need guards for illegal aliens, just busses to take them back home when they get tired of living in a prison room.

Or just don't spend money deporting them (because it treads on the fiscal liberty of the taxpayer) and also don't deport them (because it treads on the social liberty of the undocumented).

Don't tread on anyone!

#24

Greyparrot

Debates: 4

Posts: 25,802

Greyparrot

12.19.2023 11:17PM

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@TheUnderdog

Or just don't spend money deporting them

The busses are free for them to self-deport. When they leave, so will the welfare burden.