EMOTION = Private Axioms

Author: 3RU7AL

Posts

Total: 79
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Why should I explain anything to you when you adopt such a haughty attitude?
Because it is not just to me you would be explaining things.   I made the post, but a lot of people would query why you say (or seem to say) it is better you cannot feed your children than you are an atheist.   That is not something you can announce like some Oracle and walk away.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
So you are wrong to say that God struggles to fix these problems, as God created these things. 
Hold up.

Disease is not evil.

Floods and fires and hurricanes and earthquakes are not evil.

Poverty is not evil.

I'm not talking about evil.

None of these have anything to do with free-will.

CAN THE "YHWH" SOLVE THESE NON-FREE-WILL-NON-EVIL-PROBLEMS????????????????????????

you can't say, "evil is caused by human free-will" then wipe your hands on your shirt and call it a day.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Of course, and it is silly to think otherwise.

But doing things in a godly way is overall better for everyone. It's better for the environment. It's better for humanity. It's better in every single way.


Consider...

Christian virtues(copypasta from orthodoxwiki)

The virtues, often called the fruits of the Spirit, include:

Faith - The weakness and absence of faith in God is rooted in sin, impurity and pride.
Hope - Hope is the assurance of the good outcome of our lives lived by faith in God.
Knowledge - Knowledge of God is the aim and goal of man's life, the purpose of his creation by God.
Wisdom - The wise man is the one who sees clearly and deeply into the mysteries of God.
Honesty - To be truthful at all times and lacking in hypocrisy.
Humility – (Meekness) To see reality as it actually is in God. It means to know oneself and others as known by God.
Obedience - To do the will of God is glory and life.
Patience (Diligence) - To put up with one's self and others, growing gradually in the grace of God through the daily effort to keep His commandments and to accomplish His will.
Courage - To not be afraid, even unto martyrdom.
Faithfulness - The spiritual person is faithful to his calling, fulfilling every good resolution, and bearing fruit patiently with the gifts and talents given by God.
Temperance (Self-Control, Chastity) - To be moderate in all things. Like patience, it comes from the grace of God; one must seek it from the Lord.
Generosity (Kindness) – It is shown by care and concern for the well-being of others.
Gratitude (Contentment) - The spiritual person is the one who is grateful for everything.
Love - The greatest virtue of all is love. If we do not love one another, we cannot love God, for God is love

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
The virtues, often called the fruits of the Spirit, include:
Yes, yes, virtues are virtuous.  We all agree on that.

CAN THE "YHWH" SOLVE THESE NON-FREE-WILL-NON-EVIL-PROBLEMS????????????????????????

If "yes" then why do we have these problems?

If "no" then the "YHWH" is not omnipotent and or not omnibenevolent.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@keithprosser
And of course, I did give you an answer.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
I already said of course God could solve what you call problems of they were in fact problems for God, and they aren't. 


But things are the way they are because that is the way they are. It is better to make peace with these things, because making peace with these things is in a great way making peace with God.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
I already said of course God could solve what you call problems of they were in fact problems for God, and they aren't. 
But things are the way they are because that is the way they are. It is better to make peace with these things, because making peace with these things is in a great way making peace with God.
So if it is the "YHWH's" will that people die from natural disasters and diseases, why should be try to save people from them?

Wouldn't that place us in direct conflict with the "YHWH's" express will?
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Not at all. Quite the contrary in fact. We believers are called to be ministers of God's grace in the world. We are called to help those who are afflicted.


But here is an excerpt from The Gospel according to Saint John the Theologian that may have an answer... 


"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?

Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?

He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.

Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.

They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.

Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.

But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?

His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.

Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.

He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?

He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?

Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.

The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
We are called to help those who are afflicted.
Oh, well, how nice of the "YHWH" to give you something to keep you busy and prove what a good person you are.

It all makes perfect sense now.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Proving how good of a person you are is not a very Christian motivation.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
Proving how good of a person you are is not a very Christian motivation.
Causing natural disasters and diseases simply to test human charity doesn't seem very godly.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
That is your interpretation of these things, but your heart is clouded because you are in rebellion against God, so you aren't really discerning righteously.

God is the rightful judge of things. Who are you to judge God? It is pride, and a self condemning pride to boot. It doesn't really serve you.


It is better to make peace with reality.



keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
We are called to help those who are afflicted.
That's basically what humanists believe!   The difference is that humanists don't have a theory about why we should help the afflicted.  We are very aware of the theistic explanation that it's what god wants, but that can't be right because there is no god.

As me why humanists should care about other peole and i can't give any reason.  But if you don't believe helping people is a duty then you are not a humanist as the word is intended to be understood by humanists.  Not all atheists are humanists - some atheists are selfish bastards - but most atheists are humanists.  

i think many 'religious' people are unwitting humanists because the duty to help - not abstract doctrine - is at the core of their worldview.   I met hundreds of Christians volunteers when i lived and worked in east Africa  - in general the more they bashed their bibles the less they were interested in actually digging much needed bore holes.       
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@keithprosser
Humanism was a theistic thing long before it turned into the secular humanism you see today.


Humanists don't really know what good is because they are spiritually blind. That is why so many of them are communists. Their idea of good is purely materialistic.

And fyi, we Orthodox don't thump bibles. That is a very protestant thing. A protestant is not much better than a secularist 90% of the time. Protestantism is secular as it is. Add some sentimentality and self righteousness to the mix.



3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
It is better to make peace with reality.
I agree.  Natural disasters and disease are a part of life and we should deal with them as best we can.

I'm just not sure that hypothetical gods help us understand these things any better.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
As long as you keep talking about these "gods" I am going to have trouble accepting that you are taking our conversation seriously. 

I am speaking of no hypothetical "god" or "gods", I am talking about The One True God, The Ultimate Reality, of whom there is no reasonable doubt about the existence of.


And without faith, it would be very difficult for you to get any real understanding on these matters. Does a child come to have faith in their parent after understanding everything they are taught? Of course not. There has to be a certain level of faith present to begin with in order for them to be taught. A rebellious child is going to retard their own development.

And coming before God like a child is very difficult if you have a lot of pride, yet the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
Does a child come to have faith in their parent after understanding everything they are taught?
A child has empirical evidence that their parents exist and they can test the efficacy of their directives.

keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Humanism was a theistic thing long before it turned into the secular humanism you see today.
I agree.

Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
(James 1:27)
Secular humanists avoid the unneccessary superstition.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@keithprosser
The humanists see God as something other than The Ultimate Reality, which actually makes them the ones who are superstitious.

To deny The Ultimate Reality is manifest foolishness.

keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Your trademark comment was getting overdue! :-)
 
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Your inability to discern God is not much different than a child who has not yet learned to trust their parents.

Either way, the parents are still directing their child. Either way, God is still directing your steps.


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
Your inability to discern God is not much different than a child who has not yet learned to trust their parents.
Either way, the parents are still directing their child. Either way, God is still directing your steps.
Nice, so I get all the benefits of believing (gods personal guidance, like an invisible complementary life coach) without all that pesky going to church and praying and junk?
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
If you want to be like the child who is magnetically attracted towards drinking dish soap, sure.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@keithprosser
The Truth doesn't change.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mopac
If you want to be like the child who is magnetically attracted towards drinking dish soap, sure.
Why would gods personally guide me to drink dish soap? 

Perhaps gods don't know that parents are supposed to at least try to protect their children?

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Yes, and your parents would then yank you away from the dish soap and make sure it was in a secure place that you wouldn't get to it. Even though, no guarantees when visiting relatives!

I think you are forgetting the original point of this parable.



Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@3RU7AL
That's obviously not what he is saying.  
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Plisken
That's obviously not what he is saying.
What is your interpretation?
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@3RU7AL
He's not saying gods are driving you to drink dish soap.  He's making an equivalency to living according to your limited perspective irrespective of the higher truth.  This is obvious, because the parent naturally wants their child to be safe, to grow and prosper.  

"If you want to be the child who is magnetically driven", is not referring to an any external influence in his sentence, more in line with relying on your own inclination, so it's not appropriate to insert gods as influencing you to drink soap.   
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Plisken
Either way, God is still directing your steps.

He's not saying gods are driving you to drink dish soap.  He's making an equivalency to living according to your limited perspective irrespective of the higher truth.  This is obvious, because the parent naturally wants their child to be safe, to grow and prosper.
But a parent doesn't naturally stand by and watch their child play in traffic.

It seems pretty clear to me, from the text, that gods are watching out for me whether I profess magical faith in them or not.