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@3RU7AL
Discrimination means discernment. It is not an inherently bad thing unless you are a despot.
Don't be a Logic Zombie!!!
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@Mopac
Implicit racial, gender, religious, and class bias is by definition unintentional and yet provably pervasive.Discrimination means discernment. It is not an inherently bad thing unless you are a despot.
Humans are particularly bad at "discernment".
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@keithprosser
I'm not at all sure if you are being consistent with the thrust of your OP!
Please challenge my axioms and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.
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@3RU7AL
I just seems that you were arguing that peoples shouldn't rely on dry logic and we should take ownership of and responsibility for our decisions but now you arguing for following prescribed rules, delegating hard choices to a judge and community consensus That seems to jar.
All I can think of is that the Soviet Union's state religion was "scientific atheism".
I certainly don't trust the power grabbers to program these machines, because they always seem to see Christianity as a threat to their authority.
Even though we Christians are supposed to obey and pray for our civil authorities, we don't worship them as gods, which is what all these "the state is god" systems really want.
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@keithprosser
I'm trying to illustrate the horrific consequences of blind faith in logic.I just seems that you were arguing that peoples shouldn't rely on dry logic and we should take ownership of and responsibility for our decisions but now you arguing for following prescribed rules, delegating hard choices to a judge and community consensus That seems to jar.
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@Mopac
All I can think of is that the Soviet Union's state religion was "scientific atheism".
"Freedom of religion" could (should) be explicitly and logically defined under something as simple as the principle of "personal sovereignty".
I certainly don't trust the power grabbers to program these machines, because they always seem to see Christianity as a threat to their authority.
And yet, you implicitly trust the "power grabbers" to write laws and arbitrarily enforce them. Is that really so much better?
Even though we Christians are supposed to obey and pray for our civil authorities, we don't worship them as gods, which is what all these "the state is god" systems really want.
You seem to be leaping to conclusions on this one. I don't believe it is logically coherent to expect the state to be worshiped like a god.
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@3RU7AL
You don't think it is logically coherent, but China puts pictures of their president at the altars of the Christian Churches they allow to exist, and well... look at North Korea....
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@Mopac
You don't think it is logically coherent, but China puts pictures of their president at the altars of the Christian Churches they allow to exist, and well... look at North Korea....
North Korea's laws are not logically coherent or based on explicit axioms or reflective of community consensus.
Like most autocratic authoritarian dictatorships throughout history, their laws are both tyrannical and capricious.
You are conflating apples and tricycles.
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@3RU7AL
I am sure they don't see it the same way as you.
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@Mopac
Even though we Christians are supposed to obey and pray for our civil authorities, we don't worship them as gods, which is what all these "the state is god" systems really want.
What totalitarians really want is to destroy any possible competitor to 'The Leader' - and that includes God. Human political enemies are eliminated by exile, imprisonment and assasination. God is eliminated by the same methods applied to his supporters.
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@keithprosser
I'd say so.
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@Mopac
Such regimes have no compunction about killing atheist or agnostic intellectuals. The totalitarian mind is hard to understand - I'm sure I don't understand it.
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@keithprosser
Oh, in fact, I'd say that a lot of these so called "intellectuals" that may have even helped bring about the revolution will be some of the first to go before the firing squad.
That seems to be the historical precedent.
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@Mopac
I am sure they don't see it the same way as you.
Do you believe that North Koreans don't know what logic is?
Or do you believe they have a different version of it?
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@3RU7AL
A tree of logic built off of faulty premises will still yield results that are technically "logical" or "rational". That is why the idolatry of reason is a very dangerous thing.
The end result of making reason an idol before God is nihilism.
Because as the old discordian mantra goes(chaos and strife worship)
"All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense."
The end result is nihilism.
That is why Orthodoxy long ago rejected the wests attempt at replacing hesychasm with scholasticism. We know hesychasm is superior.
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@keithprosser
It's like the "mind" of any other government, just unfettered by any pretense of empathy (basically a psychopath).Such regimes have no compunction about killing atheist or agnostic intellectuals. The totalitarian mind is hard to understand - I'm sure I don't understand it.
It's like the "mind" of an organized criminal syndicate.
Try reading "The Prince". [LINK]
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@Mopac
That is why Orthodoxy long ago rejected the wests attempt at replacing hesychasm with scholasticism. We know hesychasm is superior.
Hesychasm is a mystical tradition of contemplative prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Scholasticism is a method of critical thought.
My mystical prayers told me to use logic.
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@3RU7AL
I should have read it by now!
Alas "..of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."
(Eccles 12:12)
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@Mopac
A tree of logic built off of faulty premises will still yield results that are technically "logical" or "rational".
That is why you must make your axioms explicit and verify their efficacy and internal coherence.
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@keithprosser
There's probably a pretty good youtube summary/analysis somewhere someplace.I should have read it by now!
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@3RU7AL
I've downloaded it - i'll get around to it soon.
That is why you must make your axioms explicit and verify their efficacy and internal coherence
I would call that a naive point of view.
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@Mopac
That is why you must make your axioms explicit and verify their efficacy and internal coherenceI would call that a naive point of view.
Do you think concocting laws based on unverifiable mystical prayers would be a better option?
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@3RU7AL
A hesychast has no need for laws since they by nature fulfill what it is the law is made for.
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@Mopac
Ah, ok. You're an anarchist. A holy mystical anarchist.A hesychast has no need for laws since they by nature fulfill what it is the law is made for.
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@3RU7AL
Not at all.
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@Mopac
A hesychast has no need for laws since they by nature fulfill what it is the law is made for.Ah, ok. You're an anarchist. A holy mystical anarchist.Not at all.
Please explain what you mean by "no need for laws".
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@3RU7AL
As I said, the hesychast has no need for laws because they by nature fulfill what the law is made for.
Or as scripture says,
"the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient"
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@Mopac
"the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient"
But if you, as you've already said, have "no need for laws", doesn't that make you technically "lawless"?
And if you are "lawless" doesn't that mean "the law is made for you"?
And besides that, don't you think we should have laws for everyone who is not a "hesychast"?
And if you think that we should have some sort of laws, generally, don't you have some theory (or preference) regarding what those laws should entail?