Is absence of proof, proof of absence? Do religious people have an advantage in terms of proof?

Author: Best.Korea

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There are only 2 options:

A. God exists
B. God doesnt exist

One could say, because there is no proof for A, B is true.

But that would be an assumption that B is true if there is no proof for A, because B can be false even if there is no proof for A.

Thats because there is also no proof for B.

One could even say it in a different way: A is true because there is no proof for B.

Since logic works both ways, it follows that its an assumption to treat either way as true.

So to conclude, absence of proof is not proof of absence when you have two contradicting options, both without proof, where one must be correct.

However, absence of proof doesnt fall outside of facts, but in the facts of probability.

Fact is something which is proven by observation.

By observation, we see that God either exists either doesnt.

Its a fact that one of those must be true, and its a fact that we dont know which one.

Therefore, we would be dealing with 50% chance of God existing, since by laws of probability, when two options have unknown probability where one option must be true, it is treated as 50% probability.

When probability is equally unknown on both sides, it follows that both sides are equally possible since unknown probability of one side equals unknown probability of the other side.

Since its impossible to prove that something supernatural doesnt exist, you could say that religious people have an advantage in proving God.

Therefore, denying any proof they present would just return the status of probability to 50%, which is a good probability for religious people.

But religious people gave attributes to God, such as "completely good", which led to problem of evil.

Since "completely good" contains only good and its actions result in only good, the existence of evil humans contradicts that, as existence of evil humans is a result of God's action of creating those specific humans.

Therefore, God's action resulted in evil humans, where lack of that action would result in no evil humans.

So you could say that religious people harmed their own cause by giving God attributes which God cannot have.

Its not a proof that God doesnt exist, but it is a proof that their specific "completely good" God cannot exist.
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@Best.Korea
There are only 2 options:

A. God exists
B. God doesnt exist
No, there are far more options than that.

There could be multiple gods of different natures. Even if there was only one god there would be as many options as there are permutations of a single god.


One could say, because there is no proof for A, B is true.


One could even say it in a different way: A is true because there is no proof for B.
The inversion of a fallacy is also a fallacy, yes.


So to conclude, absence of proof is not proof of absence when you have two contradicting options, both without proof, where one must be correct.
As is so often the case with logic, you (and many others) oversimplify.

Absence of proof can be proof of absence when the proposition in question should by definition produce evidence (proof). If I define rain such that it would fill an open top beaker left in the open, then the lack of water in the beaker is proof that there was no rain.

Denying one side of a dichotomy can prove the opposite IF the dichotomy is true and at least one option must be true. If the door was certainly unlocked and someone certainly unlocked it, and it could only have been Amy or Frank, then Amy having an alibi proves Frank unlocked the door.

Proving there is no god(s) at all isn't going to happen. Proving a specific god of a specific nature (for instance the god of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) doesn't exist by lack of evidence is possible. That particular god is supposed to be all-present, willing to talk to people, and has a certain agenda. Then if he fails to do something, like say... send a messiah or stop a holocaust, that proves he doesn't exist.


Therefore, we would be dealing with 50% chance of God existing, since by laws of probability, when two options have unknown probability where one option must be true, it is treated as 50% probability.
This is so very wrong. A prevalent error perhaps, but still very wrong. Statistics is very much the logic version of a gun in the hands of a toddler.

Identifying a dichotomy gives you NO information about probabilities of either. It inversely relates probabilities, that is all.


When probability is equally unknown on both sides, it follows that both sides are equally possible since unknown probability of one side equals unknown probability of the other side.
Nope, still wrong. Only thing to say is a question: What in the world made you think that?


Its not a proof that God doesnt exist, but it is a proof that their specific "completely good" God cannot exist.
Correct.


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@ADreamOfLiberty
No, there are far more options than that.
There could be multiple gods of different natures. Even if there was only one god there would be as many options as there are permutations of a single god.
The term "God" includes all versions and all numbers of Gods.
Its a truism that if multiple Gods exist, God exists.

Absence of proof can be proof of absence when the proposition in question should by definition produce evidence (proof). If I define rain such that it would fill an open top beaker left in the open, then the lack of water in the beaker is proof that there was no rain.
Actually, that would at best only be proof of no detectable rain.

You assume that what you dont see doesnt exist, but that is only proof that you do not see, not that it doesnt exist.

To explain it even more simply, even if you defined rain as water that you see and are aware of right now, you wouldnt be able to prove that you dont see it and arent aware of it.

Thats because seeing and being aware are circular, where you only know that you see because you see, circular reasoning of "X is true because X is true".
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@Best.Korea
Absence of proof can be proof of absence when the proposition in question should by definition produce evidence (proof). If I define rain such that it would fill an open top beaker left in the open, then the lack of water in the beaker is proof that there was no rain.
Actually, that would at best only be proof of no detectable rain.
The definition of rain implies detectability. That is the point.

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@ADreamOfLiberty
The definition of rain implies detectability. That is the point.
So an undetectable rain would be a possibility with any definition which doesnt include detectability.

And its impossible to detect undetectable rain, thus impossible to prove that undetectable rain doesnt exist.

And Christians will never agree to define God as detectable unless he is actually detectable.
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@Best.Korea
Is absence of proof, proof of absence? Do religious people have an advantage in terms of proof?

No, they have no advantage at all..
There is more evidence for aliens that there ever is or will be  for a "god" that is claimed to be Omnipresence refers who exists everywhere all at once. Omnipotence describes an all-powerful god, and omniscience referring to an all-knowing god.

 The religious people are more than welcome to try and convince me otherwise.
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@Best.Korea
The definition of rain implies detectability. That is the point.
So an undetectable rain would be a possibility with any definition which doesnt include detectability.
Yes, in scientific terminology that would be an "unfalsifiable hypothesis" which by their nature are also useless hypotheses as they predict nothing and can't be differentiated from contradictory hypotheses in the same category.

Any theory of god that falls under this category is also useless for the same reasons. If there is no way to know if the theory is true there is no way to differentiate the theory from competing theories.

This renders things like Pascal's wager meaningless as undetectable god A might damn you for the exact same behavior undetectable god B would save you.


And its impossible to detect undetectable rain, thus impossible to prove that undetectable rain doesnt exist.
Yes


And Christians will never agree to define God as detectable unless he is actually detectable.
What they agree to is irrelevant. They have scripture. The implications of that scripture are inescapable.

They can claim to believe in an undetectable god, but that would require the renouncement of the scripture as the source of their knowledge.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Yes, in scientific terminology that would be an "unfalsifiable hypothesis" which by their nature are also useless hypotheses as they predict nothing and can't be differentiated from contradictory hypotheses in the same category.
Any theory of god that falls under this category is also useless for the same reasons. If there is no way to know if the theory is true there is no way to differentiate the theory from competing theories.
As long as lack of existence cannot be proven, it carries conversation to nowhere, since neither side can logically prevail.

Its kinda like cat in the box.

Cat might be in the box, might not be in the box.

And undetectable cat carries it further, as even opening the box would not disprove undetectable cat.

What they agree to is irrelevant. They have scripture. The implications of that scripture are inescapable.
They can claim to believe in an undetectable god, but that would require the renouncement of the scripture as the source of their knowledge.
Christians already deny 99% of the Bible through:

"Old covenants being no longer valid",

"Translations being wrong or out of context", 

"Metaphors in the Bible".

"Separation of God's words and actions from words and actions of disciples and followers in the Bible"

I have never even met a Christian who follows scriptures to the letter and literally.
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@Best.Korea

My great cousin Albert Einstein once said, "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
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@Best.Korea
I have never even met a Christian who follows scriptures to the letter and literally.
Expressing self-contradictory beliefs makes them even more wrong, it doesn't leave them in logical limbo.
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Angel:        A Colorado-based pastor for an online church accused of pocketing $1.3 million through a cryptocurrency fraud scheme told followers in a video statement                          that you told him to do it?

God:         Why do you think I lost my God license?
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@FLRW
It seems that God often "tells" people to do bad things.

Which is why the idea of God is dangerous.

It can justify anything.
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@Best.Korea


      Allahu Akbar !
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@Stephen
There is more evidence for aliens that there ever is or will be  for a "god" that is claimed to be Omnipresence refers who exists everywhere all at once. Omnipotence describes an all-powerful god, and omniscience referring to an all-knowing god.
Well, I agree, and many will probably lose faith if aliens are detected.

But some will find a way to explain how God created aliens, just forgot to mention it in the Bible.

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@Best.Korea
When probability is equally unknown on both sides, it follows that both sides are equally possible since unknown probability of one side equals unknown probability of the other side.
Probability is determined by using known past examples as a means of assessing the likelihood of future outcomes. So once it is established that the answer is unknown, probability is definitionally excluded.

The ideas at that point shift. Once we get to the unknown we're now into the realm of philosophy. That is, if a proposition is unknowable then we act in accordance with logical defaults. In terms of existence, the default position is that nothing exists until it is demonstrated to exist, which is why the burden of proof is on theists.
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@Best.Korea
There is more evidence for aliens that there ever is or will be  for a "god" that is claimed to be Omnipresence refers who exists everywhere all at once. Omnipotence describes an all-powerful god, and omniscience referring to an all-knowing god.
Well, I agree, and many will probably lose faith if aliens are detected.

But some will find a way to explain how God created aliens, just forgot to mention it in the Bible.

Well, I understand your point entirely. But to do that they have a lot more of explaining to do and more questions to answer. Example; why does the god of their bible leave out this part of his creation when they cannot even prove the existence of the god that they worship.
Why does the bible not even mention "others" from another world? <<< This question, interestingly, may be already answered when we take the biblical stories of the "gods" descending and ascending on clouds of " smoke and fire"?.....  as covered by this interesting thread created by IlDiavolo  and discussed by he and  myself.- see link.

I hope IlDiavolo  takes up his brilliant thread again once he has time to researched further.

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Science is a closed system, like theology. It can only prove or disprove that which is within its purview. Which God isn't.

This is the solution to the "God of the gaps" problem. Wherever it seems that science contradicts religious claims, the situation is open to interpretation: the empiricist will say that religious claims have to narrow in scope over time to remain viable, while the believer will say we've merely established a limit to the applicability of science in that here it can only turn up the wrong answer.
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@Double_R
Probability is determined by using known past examples as a means of assessing the likelihood of future outcomes. So once it is established that the answer is unknown, probability is definitionally excluded.
Actually, when probability is unknown, it follows that each point of probability (0 to 100) is equally likely. 

That results in average (50%) as what is the obvious position for probability of probability.

Since 2 options are of unknown probability, one can be 100% but it also can be 0%.

So the average is 50% for both.

The ideas at that point shift. Once we get to the unknown we're now into the realm of philosophy. That is, if a proposition is unknowable then we act in accordance with logical defaults. In terms of existence, the default position is that nothing exists until it is demonstrated to exist, which is why the burden of proof is on theists.
That can be your default position, but one can also go with the idea that things dont exist only when demonstrated to not exist, where otherwise they remain an option.

While the common sense practical approach is that proof determines what is real, the logic is not limited to just that.
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If you mean "God" as the source of everything we know, of course there is a logical proof for that. Nothing comes from nothing, so there is necessarily a primary source for the existence of the universe or whatever it exists. I said it multiple times, this is even a logic that some scientists use to explain the origin of the universe.

Now, if you mean the "God" of religions, especially the one described in the new testament because we all know the God of the old testament was actually an alien team, I have to argue against it. Christianty usually confers some attributes to this "God" that are illogical, to be more precise the omnipotence and omniscience. This source of everything is not omnipotent nor omniscient, meaning that is not perfect. You just need to look around to understand it.
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@Best.Korea
Actually, when probability is unknown, it follows that each point of probability (0 to 100) is equally likely. 

That results in average (50%) as what is the obvious position for probability of probability.
This is a contradiction. You're arguing by not knowing what the probability is, we therefore know what the probability is (50%).

As a matter of practicality we would be right to act as if the probability were even because we have no other choice. But that is very different from asserting the probability is in fact equal.

That can be your default position, but one can also go with the idea that things dont exist only when demonstrated to not exist
Then one would be in the position of accepting every unproven proposition simultaneously, even when they contradict each other.
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@Double_R
Then one would be in the position of accepting every unproven proposition simultaneously, even when they contradict each other.
Accepting as possibility, yes, not as total truth.

This is a contradiction. You're arguing by not knowing what the probability is, we therefore know what the probability is (50%).
As a matter of practicality we would be right to act as if the probability were even because we have no other choice. But that is very different from asserting the probability is in fact equal.
We know that both options are of equally unknown probability.

This translates to 50% probability, since 50% = 50%.

Both options can happen and both options can have 10%, 20% or 50% or 100% chance of happening.

Since they can have any probability, the average of all is 50%.

Think of it with this example. If you were given the option to enter doors which might kill you or do nothing at all, would you enter those doors?

The probability is unknown, yet the mere option of being killed being present as that which might happen makes it undesirable to enter those doors.
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@Best.Korea
Yes they do. Religious folks have nothing to do with proving anything.  That's why it's called faith, not hard facts.
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@IlDiavolo
Is the spirit of God a thing?

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@Stephen
They're not meant to prove God. According to biblical scripture, God in the son said himself blessed are those who believe and have not seen.
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@Double_R
That default position is fallacious. To say nothing exists until proven is false. There are many things that exist, have existed long before proven to me.
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@Mall
Is the spirit of God a thing?
Spirit is an abstract concept that I wouldn't use to describe "God". And to be honest there are many things we don't know about that "source of everything" because we are not evolved enough to know it. Scientists know nothing about it.

What I can say, though, is that many people describe "God" as the most basic building blocks for matter. Is God the atoms? No. Is God perhaps the proton, neutron and electrons? No, it's even much deeper. Maybe God is at the level of quantum mechanichs where time and space dissapear, it's pure energy.
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@Best.Korea
Then one would be in the position of accepting every unproven proposition simultaneously, even when they contradict each other.
Accepting as possibility, yes, not as total truth.
We were not talking about possiblity. Logically, anything is possible as long as it doesn't contradict itself. We were talking about probability, which implies a basis for a belief system.

We know that both options are of equally unknown probability.

This translates to 50% probability, since 50% = 50%.
Again, an unknown probability =/= a known probability.

This is the exact same logic as when people claim that not knowing how the universe got here justifies belief that goddidit. The logical error in that argument is that they're saying "I can't explain the origin of the universe, therefore I can explain the origin of the universe". Same thing.

Think of it with this example. If you were given the option to enter doors which might kill you or do nothing at all, would you enter those doors?
No, because without any further information I am unable to guarantee my survival.

Recall the part where I explained that we are reasonable to act as if the probability were 50%, I'm not arguing that I disagree with you from a practical standpoint. I'm just explaining that what you're talking about is not probability. Probability is an assessment based on data, not the absence of data.



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@Stephen
I hope IlDiavolo  takes up his brilliant thread again once he has time to researched further.
Well, there are lot of things to discuss, but most of this information comes from what the ETs communicated to the contactees. I don't know if I have to talk about it because it's really far fetched even to me that I'm really open minded. It's like this ETs are releasing all what they know just in this very moment of shift. Maybe it's a kind of preparation for humanity, or a way to trick us... Lol.
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@Mall
That default position is fallacious. To say nothing exists until proven is false. There are many things that exist, have existed long before proven to me.
Default positions are not assertions of reality, they're positions one adopts as a placeholder in order to inform their actions.

Do you pray to Zeus? Thor? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? I'm guessing you don't. If not why not? Have you proven they don't exist?

No, you carry yourself and live your life as if they don't exist because that is the default position. Until you are presented with a valid reason to take the possibility of their existence seriously, you assume they don't. The alternative position of that is to live your life as if they along with every god concept you have ever been presented with all exist until you are given a valid reason to presume their non-existence. That leads to all kinds of absurdities which is why we do not take that position.
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@Double_R
Until you are presented with a valid reason to take the possibility of their existence seriously, you assume they don't.
It would be logically incorrect to assume that they dont exist.

I find a more correct position is to admit they can exist, while not acting as if they do exist.

Just because something can exist, doesnt mean you have to act as if it exists.

Every day, there is a chance that a person will die.

Thats a real chance, a fact that will happen one day, yet person, despite being aware of that chance, doesnt act as if that chance will come true every day.

Assuming non-existence is unnecessary and logically flawed.

Its better to simply act by assuming that it might exist, not that it does or doesnt.

Since there are many versions of God, its really more of a personal choice if someone will be more towards one God or the other.

When you say that something can exist, it doesnt follow that you are supposed to act as if it does exist.