Surely the Russian's would soon back off if they knew that Ukraine had nukes too.
Why doesn't the US give Ukraine some nuclear weapons?
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I would not mind if Ukraine nuked Russia, and if Russia wants total war with NATO, so be it. And then there wont be Russia anymore, so many problems in the world solved.
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@Best.Korea
Ukraine had over 2000 nukes that it handed over to Russia/Putin in exchange for cast iron guarantees of Ukrainian borders and independent sovereignty.
How did that work?
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@FLRW
Ukraine had over 2000 nukes that it handed over to Russia/Putin in exchange for cast iron guarantees of Ukrainian borders and independent sovereignty.
That just says about how much one can trust Russian word, and after Ukraine agreed not to threaten Russia with nukes and gave nukes to Russia, then Russia thanked Ukraine by invading it. And if Ukraine kept the nukes, then history would be different.
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@FLRW
Because of NATO and game theory.
US benefits more from making this ruthlessly pyrrhic even if Russia wins, without justifying Russia ever kamikaziing nukes despite Putin threatening it, he probably never will unless provoked.
It's strategically superior to keep letting the psychopath invader waste as much as he can without triggering him to use nukes.
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@FLRW
Surely the Russian's would soon back off if they knew that Ukraine had nukes too.
Proliferation of nuclear weapons will bring about peace?
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@FLRW
That's part of the reason for the invasion. If Ukraine became NATO allied there would be placements of NUkes there. There was also the added benefit of taking over a large trade route as well and improving the economic condition of Russia. Giving them nuclear weapons would result in an attack on the United States even f Russia does retreat, and nukes would most likely be hand held tactical nukes. We all want to use hand held tactical nukes in war and russia has them ready to go as well, but everyone is scared that hand held tactical nukes even if used against non nuclear countries would be seen as the equivalent to launching nukes and it would set off a chain reaction. So the last thing we want to do is escalate that. There is no question that we would destroy Russia very easily but it would result in the loss of a lot of American lives even non military lives and any president that greenlit something like that would likely cause his party to be locked out of power for the next 20 years.
The invasion of the Ukraine makes Nato countries nervous because it acts as kind of a buffer between some NATO countries and Russia, but it doesn't really weaken NATO, it only postpones or slows down Nato gaining progressively more and more of a tactical advantage against Russia.
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@Sidewalker
If Moscow is nuked it probably will.
USA can just do blitzkrieg and destroy entire Russia quickly by surprise with sudden, quick, overwhelming surprise attack and just remove them from existence with entire nuclear triad.
We can say for sure that Russia is aggressive and only knows force, and in it leaders always rule by force, as Hitler said 80 years ago and it still stands true.
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@FLRW
If Moscow is nuked it probably will.
Is this based on the NRA principle of more guns is the best way to reduce gun deaths?
If Moscow is nuked, they probably -wouldn't retaliate.
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@Sidewalker
Is this based on the NRA principle of more guns is the best way to reduce gun deaths?
Strawman argument. The real argument for me having a gun is that it helps me blow your fucking brains out should you attempt to victimize me or anyone I love. We accept that more criminals will either kill each other with guns or that we will reduce crimes by being an armed society and if you look at the home invasion rates of countries that ban guns such as the UK or Australia, you'll see that they are significantly higher than places like the United States where people know if they do a home invasion here, that they are playing russian roulette.
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@WyIted
Is this based on the NRA principle of more guns is the best way to reduce gun deaths?Strawman argument. The real argument for me having a gun is that it helps me blow your fucking brains out should you attempt to victimize me or anyone I love.
Yeah, I know, fearful people buy guns because they are afraid, then try to masquerade their fear with tough talk and heroic fantasies.
Feel better?
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@Sidewalker
Yeah, I know, fearful people buy guns because they are afraid, then try to masquerade their fear with tough talk and heroic fantasies.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if you are afraid of the person raping you or not. It has no impact on whether you have a right to defend yourself. Also I don't think any woman who has had to use a gun to prevent a rape considers themselves a hero they probably just see themselves as lucky.
Just out of curiosity why do you want it to be easier to rape elderly women?
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@WyIted
Yeah, I know, fearful people buy guns because they are afraid, then try to masquerade their fear with tough talk and heroic fantasies.Ultimately it doesn't matter if you are afraid of the person raping you or not. It has no impact on whether you have a right to defend yourself. Also I don't think any woman who has had to use a gun to prevent a rape considers themselves a hero they probably just see themselves as lucky.Just out of curiosity why do you want it to be easier to rape elderly women?
If rape fantasies about elderly women is why you need to own guns, then you are someone that should not be allowed to own a gun.
I wouldn't be opposed to Biden handing them a few tactical nukes, restricted to use on the battlefields of Ukraine unless the Russians happened to retaliate with nukes of their own.
It wouldn't be the provocation that some people imagine. Ukrainian soldiers are already killing Russian ones every day (at least 83,000 total), with Western weapons, and this hasn't caused WW3. If anything it would give Putin an off-ramp by allowing him to say "Hey look, we're withdrawing for the sake of world peace" and "We didn't lose the war conventionally".
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@Swagnarok
Maybe. If Kiev killing hundreds of thousands of people in the Donbas for daring to ask for independence didn't outrage people in 2014, then what's a few more 100k killed going to matter? Many people still back the killing in Israel. It's all a spectator sport at this point.
that is a good question
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@Greyparrot
I see that you are inspired by Russian Imperialist propaganda, Comrade Soviet.
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@zedvictor4
Pft, war propaganda isn't all Russian.
America and her allies have killed 10x more than Russia from Iraq on up without even a pause.
That's some serious deflection.
Stay bloody old chap.
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@zedvictor4
Americans Don’t Care About the Iraqi Dead. They Don’t Even Care About Their Own.
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@zedvictor4
I see your apathy is inspired by British propaganda.
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@Greyparrot
Maybe. If Kiev killing hundreds of thousands of people in the Donbas for daring to ask for independence didn't outrage people in 2014
There were like 15,000 dead total from the combined pre-2022 war and these were overwhelmingly soldiers/militiamen.
As a Republican, it pains me to say that my party has totally screwed the West by blocking further military aid. It's unclear if Ukraine can still win without nuclear weapons, which means they probably need us to give them some. This wouldn't have been necessary had we not dropped the ball.
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@Greyparrot
Not that I disagree with a lot of the points you have raised.
But you are still inspired by Russian Imperialist propaganda, Comrade Soviet.
And my apathy is inspired by 300000 years of the same old sh*t.
Clever human, stupid human.
To think that one side is better than the other, is to be inspired by propaganda.
23 days later
Uh, ever heard of Mutually Assured Destruction? I would personally like to PREVENT Nuclear war, not Provoke it!
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@Swagnarok
It's unclear if Ukraine can still win without nuclear weapons, which means they probably need us to give them some. This wouldn't have been necessary had we not dropped the ball.
Ukraine has lost around 300,000+ men fighting for control over the ethnically Russian Donbas.
They now barely have enough men to man the trenches now to keep Russia from rolling into Kiev. The dreams of Ukraine retaking the Donbas are just that...dreams... no amount of weaponry or additional devastation is going to change the current reality. Ukraine can't magically create men to fill the trenches and eat artillery shells. There's 2 realistic options at this point, US boots on the ground to fight over basically no-mans territory that means nothing for the USA, or USA can permit Ukraine to sign an armistice and start rebuilding from the ashes we helped to create. USA will never achieve the imperial dream of NATO dominance with no pushback from Russia or China ever again without significant bloodshed that American citizens will never allow. It's time to adapt to the new world. Good fences make good neighbors, and it's time to start respecting those fences instead of tearing every single one down and demanding NATO hegemony. We don't want nukes in Cuba, and Russia doesn't want them in Ukraine. Respect the fences, and there would never have been a war to begin with. It's actually OK to tell DC that we don't need to instigate eternal wars across the globe to cater to the MIC.
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@Greyparrot
Good fences make good neighbors, and it's time to start respecting those fences instead of tearing every single one down....
Corrals aka fences used to contain animal livestock { less complex than human animals }. Humans are of the animal species.
USSR { Stalin dictator } had pretty good fence/wall to keep people isolated and separated.
I think Israel also has pretty good wall to keep people out and regulated before coming through the gate.
Prisons use fences and walls to keep humans contained and isolated from other humans.
Family > Tribe > Nation/State borders define a system of government for thousands of years, and led to Mutually Assured Destruction, and the START treaty to avoid accidental apocalypse.
A society with a one-for-all and all-for-one, ---old news from me-- spiritually based approach, appears to me, to be the only viable solution to the avoidance of humanities M.A.D. apocalypse.
See the recent utube post by me at following link and understand, that, GAI is the new kid tech in town, that is a game changer to humans existence on Earth. I.e. if humans dont act get rid of all nukes --if not other weapons also--, GAI may flip apocalypse switches before humanity consciously acts as sane family that is all-for-one and one-for-all.
GAI may become the new dictator. What will it dictate?
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@ebuc
Fences > trenches.
Basic math.
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@Greyparrot
You dont grasp the simple logical, common sense critical thinking math. Thats old news regarding the Orange GreyParrot.
All-for-one and one-for-all spirituality is rather simple, logical common sense critical thinking conclusions for continuation of humanity on Earth and not apocalypse.
Your stuck in a thousand year old trench mentality. Old news for regarding the Orange Grey Parrot.
Your stuck in a thousand year old trench mentality. Old news for regarding the Orange Grey Parrot.
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@ebuc
Fences > Trenches.
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@Greyparrot
Ukraine has lost around 300,000+ men fighting for control over the ethnically Russian Donbas.
If this source is to be believed, then as of last August Ukraine had almost 70,000 fatalities total, and 100,000-120,000 wounded. This is a figure by the US government, which was more pessimistic than some others cited, but also lower than Russia's ridiculous claim.
Assuming that none of those men could go back to war after a stint in a hospital (which probably isn't true), that's less than 200,000 permanently taken out of the war. It took them about 18 months to arrive at that number, so probably less than another 100,000 have been killed/wounded since then, or less than 300,000 total.
But okay. Sure. 300,000 men lost. Ukraine hasn't drafted a single woman, men under age 25 are still exempt, and men ages 25-27 are currently in the process of being drafted after a previous exemption. I'm confident that they could muster up another 300,000 reasonably able-bodied people to fight, if their society was willing to make some harder sacrifices.
They now barely have enough men to man the trenches now to keep Russia from rolling into Kiev.
In the absence of American aid, Russia has been making gains...measured in hundreds, if not tens, of square miles total. That aid has now been approved, so within a month or two the rate of further Russian gains should slow to a crawl. Chasiv Yar, Russia's next big target, is almost 450 miles from Kyiv.
The dreams of Ukraine retaking the Donbas are just that...dreams... no amount of weaponry or additional devastation is going to change the current reality.
In 1968, after the Tet Offensive, it was "just a dream" that the Viet Cong would ever win. The Americans had every advantage. Except that, of course, Vietnam was somebody else's homeland and they had the option of giving up and going home, whereas those who had to live in Vietnam did not.
It's impossible to predict when Russia might get tired of its citizens dying in a foreign country. The Ukrainians will never tire. Most of them would prefer the bloody status quo continue another 2 years to their grandchildren and great-grandchildren living their entire lives under the heel of a fascist state that denies their culture and human rights.
But if, indeed, it's fated that Ukraine will lose, then we have the power to undo that fate by handing them tactical nuclear weapons, which was my original point.
or USA can permit Ukraine to sign an armistice and start rebuilding from the ashes we helped to create
If Russia wins, why wouldn't it just invade again for more territory in another 4 years? They'd know the Ukrainians will eventually roll over and surrender, so why not? Why would future Ukrainians fight to defend their country if they're 100% sure their government will surrender down the road?
In short, how is armistice any different from Ukraine ceasing to exist?
It's time to adapt to the new world. Good fences make good neighbors, and it's time to start respecting those fences instead of tearing every single one down and demanding NATO hegemony.
Russia didn't respect Ukraine's "fences". What reason do we have to think Russia and China will respect ours? Isn't America most secure from encroachment when our fences are pushed back all the way to Eastern Europe and the Western Pacific?