Presidential Immunity

Author: Double_R

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@ADreamOfLiberty
A payment from a personal account to a lawyer labeled as "legal expenses" has now been declared to be "campaign spending" without any input from the FEC or anyone involved.

Basically if you went out to buy an apple, they'll claim you're trying to illegally hide campaign spending because if you don't eat you'll look unhealthy on camera and that might hurt your chances.
This reminds me of when "marriage sanctity" advocates claim that if we legalize same sex marriage then soon people will be marrying their coffee table.
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Make Slovenian Sex Workers Great Again !
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@Double_R
then soon people will be marrying their coffee table.
They are already marrying pillows. Next stop, sex robots.

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@Greyparrot
Also: ignore the 2 signed documents where she asserted nothing happened.
Well if you didn't ignore it then she would have defrauded the American voter by lying. Either she's lying now or she lied then.

Off to the gulag with her!
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@Double_R
You keep alluding to this campaign finance violation that was "never charged". You do know that is one of the central elements on trial right now... Right?
Then they should put it in the charges... oh wait, they can't, no jurisdiction.

Remember when you were all excited about jurisdiction stopping abuses? Nope, not when there is lawfare to wage.
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@Double_R
the schwarzenegger case is an example of a tabloid paying for a story in the middle of a political campaign with the intent to kill the story
And tabloids are free to do that all they want. Tabloids aren't running for president and therefore aren't subject to campaign finance laws.
Cohen wasn't running for president, but you seem to think if Trump told Cohen to pay Stormy that counts.

Now, why would a tabloid kill a story? Out of the goodness of their heart? They just hate the defamation that much?


When you can explain the overlap been the Schwarzenegger campaign's involvement and falsification of business records with Trump's then you might have a case of a legal double standard, assuming California's laws are the same.
It's all about the context you see. The portents were very different in California at that time.

Someone saw an eagle high in the sky. The chicken bones were laid out quite uniquely.

Always the same tired, failed, illogical, pathetic, defeated, and utterly debunked tricks with you isn't it. "False equivalence because the exact order of fake offenses isn't the same"

If you were honest you would admit it's the implications of your 'interpretations' that mattered. If they were true, there would be a crime. You can't just drag in random bits of information and change that.

"Oh did Biden lie to the FBI", doesn't matter does it. The law you claim Trump broke doesn't say "willfully retain documents while lying to the FBI"

Same thing here. You ABSURDLY claim "legal expenses" is a false label, but that does not in any way or in the slightest degree change the fact that you are also claiming hush money (compensated NDAs) is a campaign finance violation.
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Tabloids aren't running for president and therefore aren't subject to campaign finance laws.
Tabloid newspapers, like any corporation, do have to abide by campaign donation laws. There are restrictions and reporting requirements on campaign contributions to political candidates.

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@Double_R
Till then, the fact that you continue to compare these two while leaving out the actual crime alleged here tells me you aren't well versed on the basics. Either that or you're just being fundamentally dishonest. Either way, if you are really interested in the legal theory here I suggest you spend some time googling it instead of pressing me to explain it even though I've said multiple times already that I'm not a lawyer and am really not interested in the legal manutia of this case.
look, just to be clear, i hate trump as much as the next guy

and what you seem to be saying here is that you don't want to haggle over legal details

while at the same time haggling over legal details

paying to kill a story in the middle of a campaign is not a crime

it is not a campaign expenditure if there is evidence that the expense would have happened regardless of the campaign

trump paid to kill similar stories BEFORE he ran for president - so it is reasonable to believe he would have paid to kill this story regardless

killing a story is not and has never been "defrauding voters"
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Then they should put it in the charges... oh wait, they can't, no jurisdiction.

Remember when you were all excited about jurisdiction stopping abuses? Nope, not when there is lawfare to wage.
Excited? No I was just explaining to you why your cartoonishly ridiculous hypothetical would never happen in real life.
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@3RU7AL
killing a story is not and has never been "defrauding voters"
Every charge in these series of mock trials is designed to demonstrate the destruction of the rule of law and fair application.

Talk about the court case publicly:
Trump: crime
CNN: it's OK

Store classified documents at home:
Trump: crime
Everyone else: it's OK

Generously evaluate your assets when bargaining for a good loan rate:
Trump: crime
Everyone else: it's OK.

Ask for an audit for election interference:
Trump: crime
Everyone else: it's OK

85% of people polled say the country is headed in the wrong direction. This is just one part of Biden's destruction of America.
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85% of people polled say the country is headed in the wrong direction. This is just one part of Biden's destruction of America.
Most of those people are talking about the problem we have in this country with the MAGA MORONS and the idiots that were elected to Congress.



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Intimidating witnesses:

Everyone but Trump: crime with immediate jail time

Trump: a meaningless fine

Refuse to return classified documents, hide them, lie about them to the FBI

Everyone but Trump: crime and jail time. Just ask Martha Stewart

Trump: Trump appointed judge too stupid to make a decision on the case

Lie about assets, income and business expenses on a loan application, business records and to the IRS:

Everyone but Trump: Fines, penalties, interest and jail time

Trump: His CFO goes to jail




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due to inflation.
Inflation? What inflation? 

Inflation is a problem for losers who can’t earn.

Blacks identify with the weaponization of the justice system.
So Trump is being treated like a black man? But MAGA MORONS never minded when black people experienced injustice. They only object when they perceive a white person being unjustly charged. 

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Martha Stewart: crime
Pelosi: it's OK

Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to the FBI.

Martha Stewart did not go to jail for insider trading. She was, however, convicted of obstruction of justice, making false statements, and conspiracy in connection with the sale of ImClone Systems stock in 2001.

But MAGA MORONS don’t like details. They make up their own alternative facts.

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enjoy the revolution.
A revolution by lonely, unemployed, substitute teachers?

Greyparrot
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  • Trump has a big edge on leadership -- 57% to 38% -- Trump has also gained a modest edge for managing the government (49% to 39%) because of Biden’s lower 2024 rating on that item.
    "Mean tweets" isn't going to work in 2024 for Biden due to inflation. Biden was his own worst enemy these past years. Probably shouldn't have printed so much money to avoid a recession. Inflation is much worse for poor people not used to shouldering that much of a cost burden. Zero chance you can win a presidential re-election with mostly rich people and upper middle class supporting you. Just ask Jimmy Carter how that worked out for him.
It's also funny how Democrats are caught in a horror spiral as increasing Blacks identify with the weaponization of the justice system. No chance Biden will score 90% this time.

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@ADreamOfLiberty
Cohen wasn't running for president, but you seem to think if Trump told Cohen to pay Stormy that counts.
He didn't just tell him. Cohen worked directly for him and was paid by him, so Trump was every bit involved in the scheme as Cohen.

When you can explain the overlap been the Schwarzenegger campaign's involvement and falsification of business records with Trump's then you might have a case of a legal double standard, assuming California's laws are the same. 
It's all about the context you see. The portents were very different in California at that time.

Someone saw an eagle high in the sky. The chicken bones were laid out quite uniquely.

Always the same tired, failed, illogical...
Blah blah blah. Why quote me of you're not going to respond to a word I just said?

"Oh did Biden lie to the FBI", doesn't matter does it. The law you claim Trump broke doesn't say "willfully retain documents while lying to the FBI"
You're conflating two different things and as usual, don't understand the very basic idea of enforcing laws.

We can have this conversation in a political context or a legal one. Since neither of us are lawyers, the latter makes no sense unless we're really just in it for the intellectual exercise. Neither of us are, so that's just dishonest.

In a political context all we're doing is evaluating it from an overview. The law has all sorts of technicalities, it is the job of prosecutors to go after wrongdoing by using the laws on the books to go after it. You keep framing this as lawfare, that's just stupid. It's how every criminal Enterprise has been gone after for over a century. No one complains of lawfare when a mob boss is sentenced to prison for tax evasion.

The overview here is where we step back and recognize as thinking human beings that lying to the FBI in order to hold onto classified documents is worse than realizing you have them and immediately returning them. 

If you don't want to acknowledge that basic fact and instead want to play the "let's pretend we're lawyers" game then here is a helpful snippet...

"Willful retention is not accidental, negligent, or reckless. Rather, a defendant only retains NDI willfully if he or she knows he or she possesses it and knows that such possession is prohibited due to the nature of the information."

So when you are lying to the FBI about the documents you possess, you are almost by definition guilty of willful retention. That describes Trump. It does not describe Biden. This isn't complicated.

here. You ABSURDLY claim "legal expenses" is a false label, but that does not in any way or in the slightest degree change the fact that you are also claiming hush money (compensated NDAs) is a campaign finance violation.
The $130k you paid to a porn star to keep her quiet is not a legal expense. That's a fact.

Paying to keep a story out of the public for the purpose of winning election sure sounds to me like a campaign expenditure. Not a lawyer here, but I fail to see how it is not.

As I've said about 3 or 4 times already, I really have no interest in the legal minutiae of this case, you guys keep dragging me into it because you'd rather talk about this than the cases this thread was about. But if we set aside the legal technicalities for a moment, you cannot pretend that you seriously believe Trump's primary motivation for paying off her and McDougal was anything other than protecting the campaign.
Greyparrot
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So when you are lying to the FBI about the documents you possess, you are almost by definition guilty of willful retention.
You know what's also illegal? FBI entrapment. But the FBI has done it on jan6 with instigators, mar-a-lago document planting, Whitmer kidnap plot, and other places. Also, an FBI "lie" consists of the most wild stretches of reality such as when saying you recall something one year but not the next.

Serious reform was long overdue long before and after Trump.
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@Double_R
Paying to keep a story out of the public for the purpose (mind reader) of winning election sure sounds to me like a campaign expenditure. Not a lawyer here, but I fail to see how it is not.
if you're arnold schwarzenegger it's not a campaign expenditure
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@Double_R
Not a charging document.


Excited? No I was just explaining to you why your cartoonishly ridiculous hypothetical would never happen in real life.
It's happening right now. You just like the results, at least the ones you foresee.


Cohen wasn't running for president, but you seem to think if Trump told Cohen to pay Stormy that counts.
He didn't just tell him.
It doesn't matter. If hush money is a campaign expenditure then it must be recorded and transparent. You cannot escape the fact that your interpretation makes hundreds of other people guilty and is a break with all precedent.

Unequal application and lack of precedent are the hallmarks of lawfare (or the end of rule of law).


Why quote me of you're not going to respond to a word I just said?
You said nothing of relevance. The overlap was clear and obvious. Falsification is not required under your absurd legal theories.


You're conflating two different things and as usual
I'm categorizing your fallacies by common properties. Within the list of traditionally named fallacies they are red herrings. You refuse to accept the implications of your asserted legal interpretations because you think some other charge or detail (often false but that's besides the point) creates "context" that renders your interpretation moot.

Red herrings are fallacies of relevance and that is your repeated fallacy in comparing lawfare to rule of law.


The overview here is where we step back and recognize as thinking human beings that lying to the FBI in order to hold onto classified documents is worse than realizing you have them and immediately returning them. 
Irrelevant to the claim that retaining once classified documents willfully after having been POTUS (or near presidential power) and having been authorized to possess the information violates the law.

Your "worse" is the red herring. What you think of as "worse" has nothing to do with the implications of your interpretation of the law in question.


"Willful retention is not accidental, negligent, or reckless. Rather, a defendant only retains NDI willfully if he or she knows he or she possesses it and knows that such possession is prohibited due to the nature of the information."
This is the opinion of one person, not precedent or citation of law. It gives the impression the quote you transmitted is from a court ruling, but that text is not found in United States v. Hitselberger, 991 F. Supp.2d 101, 106-07 (D. D.C. 2013).

Maybe you should send it to Hur, because he said Biden willfully retained documents.


So when you are lying to the FBI about the documents you possess, you are almost by definition guilty of willful retention. That describes Trump. It does not describe Biden.
It describes neither because both thought the possession was not prohibited. That doesn't change just because the FBI starts asking questions.


here. You ABSURDLY claim "legal expenses" is a false label, but that does not in any way or in the slightest degree change the fact that you are also claiming hush money (compensated NDAs) is a campaign finance violation.
The $130k you paid to a porn star to keep her quiet is not a legal expense. That's a fact.
When it's a legal agreement negotiated by a lawyer and paid through a lawyer it is. That is a fact.

Nearly every law firm pays court, filing, records, and service fees on behalf of a client. It is not falsifying business records to record only one payment to the lawfirm just because the law firm doesn't use the entire payment for salary.


Paying to keep a story out of the public for the purpose of winning election sure sounds to me like a campaign expenditure. Not a lawyer here, but I fail to see how it is not.
and suspending anyone's account for mentioning a story for the purpose of winning an election sure sounds like campaign activity to me. So I guess that makes facebook and the FBI's budget "campaign expenditures".

You have no capability of self-correction. What you should be doing is looking at absurd conclusions and saying "there is an error in one of the premises", in this case your premise that "anything that I can construe as helping a political campaign is campaign activity".


As I've said about 3 or 4 times already, I really have no interest in the legal minutiae of this case
Like 3RU7AL said, you want it both ways.

If you could stay on subject without gish galloping around with red herrings we would be talking only about the constitution and what the impeachments clause implies.

You can't, because in your mind (as it appears) you have no clearly defined chains of inference.

You (seemingly) can't help but argue "orangeman bad therefore immunity (from prosecution by anyone with a hammer) must be fake". "He did it for the money" or "entirely for personal gain"

The juicy goal of destroying Donald Trump is like a tumor in your thinking that draws all thoughts towards it. All arguments exist only in relation to getting Trump. All these pseudocases against Trump serve to prove is that the founders were wise to remove federal officers (and office holders) from the whims of easily corrupted local courts.

The fact that the founders limited jurisdiction to congress is contained solely in the text and history of the Constitution of the United States of America.
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ADOL has a lot of time to spend here on a work day. Are you unemployed? Retired? A house wife?
Greyparrot
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Why do unemployed people care if others are as well? Misery loves company I guess.
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I wouldn’t know. I’ve already paid more in federal income tax than you will earn this year.
Greyparrot
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I spent all your tax money this year. It was awesome. In fact, my entire salary comes from your taxes. Thanks for supporting me with your hard work. I spent your hard earned money well, don't fret.
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I spent all your tax money this year. It was awesome. In fact, my entire salary comes from your taxes. Thanks for supporting me with your hard work. I spent your hard earned money well, don't fret.
Yes, I have no doubt. And you’re the Libertarian MAGA MORON. So ironic.

But I wouldn’t call your pay a salary, let’s be honest. Wages would be more accurate. $100 every now and then can’t seriously be called a salary.

Salary is a term used by and for successful grown ups.

ADreamOfLiberty
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@Greyparrot
Why do unemployed people care if others are as well? Misery loves company I guess.
I think he has 3 alternate accounts for the likes because what kind of simpleton would think he made a point by responding 11 minutes after the so called "unemployed" person?

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@ADreamOfLiberty
As long as I am safe from doxxing, I really don't care if he wants to live in a fantasy bubble where everyone he doesn't agree with is unemployed.
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@3RU7AL
and what you seem to be saying here is that you don't want to haggle over legal details

while at the same time haggling over legal details
More like being dragged into it. This thread was supposed to be about the oral arguments at the SC bit this is the case the Trump supporters love to talk about because it's the only one where they have a plausible argument against.

But when I talk about not wanting to haggle over the details, I'm talking about the criminal statues and the legal theory connecting all of the different charges. What you're talking about is the basics and I take objection to the way you are both oversimplifying and strawmanning the case. This case might ultimately pass muster legally or not, but your portrayal of it is that it's so obviously absurd on its face which feeds right into the MAGA cultists conspiracy claims. It's far more complicated than that.

paying to kill a story in the middle of a campaign is not a crime
The judge seems to disagree with you, as well as higher courts that have so far failed to intervene.

it is not a campaign expenditure if there is evidence that the expense would have happened regardless of the campaign

trump paid to kill similar stories BEFORE he ran for president - so it is reasonable to believe he would have paid to kill this story regardless
That will be for the jury to decide. From what I have seen it seems obvious this was all about the election.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Excited? No I was just explaining to you why your cartoonishly ridiculous hypothetical would never happen in real life.
It's happening right now.
The scary thing is that you really do believe this.

You cannot escape the fact that your interpretation makes hundreds of other people guilty and is a break with all precedent.
List these hundreds along with the evidence that would be sufficient to justify a prosecutor's resources to bring a charges. Then you'll have a case.

Your "worse" is the red herring. What you think of as "worse" has nothing to do with the implications of your interpretation of the law in question.
It's not a red herring, it's the entire point. You're comparing two very different things and claiming them to be the same because you can find a 1% overlap in the Venn diagram of illegality, then wonder why they're being treated differently.

If I was doing 71 in a 70 zone, I'm speeding, but I probably won't get pulled over. If I'm doing 138, I'll be lucky if I don't get arrested. And if I don't, they'll dish out a ticket for every violation they can find; seat belt, window tints, failure to signal, etc...

And then you'll come along claiming this is lawfare because both were speeding without a seat belt but only one got a ticket.

Laws are not written to account for every possible variation, degree of severity or contingency because that is literally impossible. That is why not only in this country but in every society that has ever existed in human history and every society that will ever exist within human civilization, the enforcement of the law will always require human discretion. That, by definition, means there will always be some difference from one situation to another in whether a charge is brought, how strongly that charge is sought, and it's eventual outcome. The question when comparing one charge to another is therefore not whether everything was applied exactly the same, but whether said discretion was appropriate given the totality of the circumstances.

This is where your arguments fall completely off the intellectual cliff. Your schtick by this point is transparent and predictable; find the point where discretion was applied, note the differences, then claim lawfare. No regard for how one situation was different from another, no regard for what those laws were written to protect against in the first place.

It's not a serious point of view, it's the weaponization of every technicality you can find to advance your political agenda, which is to burn it all to the ground because it isn't working for you the way you think you're entitled to.

And it would be one thing if this conversation was between law students who actually gave a shit about the difference between NY statue 175.10 vs 175.5, but neither of us do. We're talking about this only because of its political implications, so to pretend that "worse" is irrelevant to this conversation is fundamentally dishonest and frankly stupid. Worse does in fact matter In every sense because determining what's worse and treating it as if it was worse is the entire point of why we have laws and why we have a political system in the first place. It's why you are purporting to be so upset about what's going on right now.

Don't have time to respond to the rest. Maybe later.
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@Double_R
because you can find a 1% overlap in the Venn diagram of illegality
Illegality cannot accurately be charted on a Venn diagram.

There are statutes with definitions of crime. When you choose an interpretation you have to stick with it. If you don't, that's lawfare. That's your whim ruling, not the law.


then wonder why they're being treated differently.
Oh I know why they're treated differently, and it is intolerable. I don't ask you for an explanation for different treatment, I asked you to explain why your interpretations don't apply to others and you have consistently failed.


If I was doing 71 in a 70 zone, I'm speeding, but I probably won't get pulled over. If I'm doing 138, I'll be lucky if I don't get arrested. And if I don't, they'll dish out a ticket for every violation they can find; seat belt, window tints, failure to signal, etc...

And then you'll come along claiming this is lawfare because both were speeding without a seat belt but only one got a ticket.
It's actually a good analogy, because this is a perfect example of low level lawfare.

Building codes, zoning rules, county bylaws are another.

and if Trump was fined 500 million dollars for speeding, it would still be lawfare.

You find unequal application to be acceptable to go after troublemakers (in your view). Your view is unethical, and where the examples above are a pervasive but low density injustice, when used to control the federal government it becomes civil-war-triggering.

To the Jim Crow southern sheriff being black was enough proof of being a troublemaker. That was the context they needed to pull over a black guy. People who believe in the fallacy you just expressed tie themselves in endless loops "oh discretion is good, but not for the wrong reasons..." bla bla bla, you're wrong; and it shows in the injustice your theory manifests.



the enforcement of the law will always require human discretion.
Discretion exists to the degree of imperfection in the law. The greatest discretion is absolute dictatorship.

If men could be trusted to choose justice on their own discretion, we wouldn't need laws.


That, by definition
You asserting that something has never been perfect is not a definition.

There has always been rape and murder, but human society does not by definition require it and we should do our very best to eliminate it from our society.


This is where your arguments fall completely off the intellectual cliff.
Oh, no I don't think that's whats happening here.


No regard for how one situation was different from another
Just enough regard to distinguish the relevant from the irrelevant.


no regard for what those laws were written to protect against in the first place.
You mean like noting that all classification authority flows from POTUS and if he isn't authorized then no one is?


It's not a serious point of view, it's the weaponization of every technicality you can find to advance your political agenda, which is to burn it all to the ground because it isn't working for you the way you think you're entitled to.
Confession by projection, every word.


We're talking about this only because of its political implications
The law is being twisted because of the political implications. The letter of the law is the proof of the twisting.


so to pretend that "worse" is irrelevant to this conversation is fundamentally dishonest and frankly stupid.
It's irrelevant to the law, and when you think your idea of worse justifies unequal and novel (without precedent) application of law that just so happens to pile onto one political candidate you all but admit that the law is nothing more than a conduit for your political goals.

Politics is war by other means. When law is a weapon in politics, that is a good definition of "lawfare" and mutually exclusive with "rule of law".


Worse does in fact matter In every sense because determining what's worse and treating it as if it was worse is the entire point of why we have laws and why we have a political system in the first place. It's why you are purporting to be so upset about what's going on right now.
The voting booth is where you may decide that Donald J Trump is worse than others. Trying to squeeze a bill of attainder out of laws which under the constitution may not apply to only one man is seditious abuse of the law and the constitution.

Unequal application of laws is unconstitutional, and laws that are twisted to apply to one man (and his agents) is the most unequal form of unequal application.

You and those like you taking a big smelly dump on the social contract and rule of law is worse than Donald Trump asking whether Biden is corrupt and buying big macs for another four years.