Jesus = Fact

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@3RU7AL

Allows us to.

And we Orthodox likewise do not force people to believe or persecute those who don't believe. At least, that is not the Church's stance on things. Very much against coercion, even the types of coercion that some missionaries of other confessions do when they go to the poorest places in the world, promising them food or water in return for going to their church service.

Because it is a choice, and that is a gift God gave us. And sure enough, we are different than other creatures in that with God's grace we can overcome our animal nature.

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01.22.2019 08:45PM

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@Mopac

(IFF) an individual detects an act that seems, from their perspective to be an injustice (OR) may very soon lead to a perceived predictable injustice (AND) they can imagine that they could possibly intervene to prevent or significantly mitigate the injustice or the immediate consequences of such (AND) they determine the foreseeable cost of that action to be proportional to the benefit of the injustice being prevented or the consequences of such an injustice significantly mitigated (THEN) they should take action or suffer the consequence of be held morally culpable only to themselves and only by themselves.

As individual citizens, we are not legally responsible for the health and safety of all members of our society. Our laws generally reflect the consensus moral viewpoint of our society. There are certain agents within our society like police and firefighters who are held to a higher standard of expectation to take action to prevent harm or potential harm.

An individual standard of moral culpability would not seem to be a strong enough standard to hold someone morally responsible for an action or inaction. I would propose that the standard should be rather a reasonable expectation that a jury of their peers would consider them to be morally culpable to be much more relevant.

On the other hand, this self prescribed moral standard would seem to carry a bit more substantial weight if we imagine that "god" is the inactive observer of an injustice.

#93

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@3RU7AL

And this is why religious discussion in general is impossible.

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@Mopac

Your god isn't perfect. Read the book.

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@3RU7AL

What I am saying has nothing to do with the judicial system or government at all.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Sustainer

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@Polytheist-Witch

I don't believe in a god, I believe in God.

You don't know my God.

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keithprosser

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@Mopac

because not everything that exists is God, though God is what gives it existence.

That god gives reality existence is normal theology.

i'm not sure you get that my problem is ony with your assertion that one cannot deny god without denying reality.

If god is the (alleged) sustainer of reality (not reality itself) then denying god is to deny that reality needs a divine sustainer; it is not denying reality per se. Your understanding of the term 'ultimate realuty' is not quite right. but 'that which gives reality existence' is close to its usual theological use,

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@Mopac

Sure do that is why I don't worship him.

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@keithprosser

To deny the ultimate reality is to say that nothing is ultimately real.

Quite naturally a denial of reality.

The Ultimate Reality is the sustainer of reality, but it is also the determiner of reality, the creator of reality. If there is no ultimate reality, NOTHING IS REAL. that is why atheism towards this God is nihilism, and oddly enough, it wasn't until fairly recently that people forgot this.

And I am not talking about "god", I am talking about God.

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@Polytheist-Witch

Yes, that is why you are a delusional pagan.

You don't like the way things are, so you substitute reality with fabrications of your vain imagining.

Your faith is an aesthetic choice.

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@Mopac

Whatever get you dick hard.

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@Polytheist-Witch

Not an aesthetic choice.

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@polly

Add an r numpty

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#104

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@Mopac

What I am saying has nothing to do with the judicial system or government at all.

If you have foreknowledge of a preventable crime and you fail to prevent it, you are an accomplice.

If a god has foreknowledge of a preventable sin and fails to prevent it, that god is an accomplice.

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@3RU7AL

So basically, you are arbitrarily passing judgement on God, the only real righteous judge, because we don't all live in candyland.

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01.23.2019 04:32PM

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@Mopac

So basically, you are arbitrarily passing judgement on God, the only real righteous judge, because we don't all live in candyland.

This is not arbitrary. This is a statement based on the logical coherence of moral realism.

If you build an apartment complex that spontaneously collapses and kills hundreds of residents, then you are guilty of criminal negligence.

If a god builds a planet that spontaneously produces violent earthquakes and floods that kill hundreds of residents, then that god is guilty of criminal negligence.

You can't have one without the other.

We've already established that a god can send down a holy hit-man with a flaming sword along with a talking donkey in order to "convince" humans to do what it wants.

This should be happening to every evil person on the planet.

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@3RU7AL

Logic doesn't overrule reality.

The reality is, God has granted us freewill, the ability to choose between good and evil. That doesn't mean that these are equally valid choices. We can choose to be wrong, and that isn't really in our best interests.

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@Mopac

Free-Will has nothing to do with earthquakes and floods.

Free-Will has nothing to do with holy hit-men with flaming swords and talking donkeys.

Let's imagine that I designed a self-driving car.

This car would follow every command of the original programmer.

However, I wanted this car to have Free-Will, and so, instead of following every command (including the speed-limit laws and yielding the right of way and following proper maps and the like), it randomly gets to decide for itself if it should turn right or left or slam the accelerator or the brakes.

Now, imagine this car gets into an accident.

I can't be held personally responsible because the car had Free-Will.

If the only way you can violate gods will is by using your Free-Will, then Free-Will is de facto immorality.

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I love comparing a car to human beings. Someone hates life.

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@3RU7AL

3RU7AL v.s. God

That ought to be an interesting court case.

This is a really perverse line of reasoning. So when something happens that you don't like is blaming God going to be your go to? No, I imagine you would simply reject God all together. Reality isn't the way I want it to be, so I'm going to blame it, deny it, or replace it with something else!

How arbitrary.
This type of attitude will only lead to mental illness, not healing.

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@3RU7AL

Those who do not have God are morally blind, because there is no morality apart from God. Without God, you are simply groping in the dark. You don't know what makes something moral, you are simply going by your reasoning or even your gut. That isn't to say you can't be moral, just that you don't really know what morality is!

And I would like to point out that this judicial type of thinking is very typical of western theology, but very foreign to how Orthodox view things.

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@Mopac

3RU7AL v.s. GodThat ought to be an interesting court case.This is a really perverse line of reasoning. So when something happens that you don't like is blaming God going to be your go to? No, I imagine you would simply reject God all together. Reality isn't the way I want it to be, so I'm going to blame it, deny it, or replace it with something else!How arbitrary. This type of attitude will only lead to mental illness, not healing.

Please challenge my axioms and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.

If a god is omnipotent, then that god is responsible for all events.

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01.23.2019 08:26PM

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@3RU7AL

In other words, you aren't responsible for your own actions, correct?

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@Mopac

In other words, you aren't responsible for your own actions, correct?

(IFF) a god is omnipotent (THEN) only that god is responsible for all events.

(IFF) there are no omnipotent gods (THEN) each person is responsible for their actions.

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@3RU7AL

Why, because you can't wrap your head around synergy?

If God is the cause of these bad things, he is to be invoked not blasphemed!

Yet, God exists and you have been given free will. You blaming God for your actions will not be a valid excuse.

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01.23.2019 11:06PM

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@Mopac

Why, because you can't wrap your head around synergy?
If God is the cause of these bad things, he is to be invoked not blasphemed!
Yet, God exists and you have been given free will. You blaming God for your actions will not be a valid excuse.

Please challenge my axioms and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.

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@3RU7AL

God is responsible for giving you free will as well, which does make you responsible for your actions.

You have the choice to choose good or evil. And this in no way compromises God's sovereignty.

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@3RU7AL

The Jesus was a real, historical human being.

The (historically verifiable) prophecies of the Jewish and Christian scriptures are 100% true.

Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to either the Jewish or Christian religious beliefs.

In the exact same way,

Gilgamesh was a real, historical human being.

The (historically verifiable) events and prophecies of the Epic of Gilgamesh are 100% true.

Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to the ancient Sumerian religious beliefs.
janesix

Is it reasonable to believe Jesus was a historical Person based on the evidence available = Yes!

Is it reasonable to believe God is our Creator = Yes!

Is it reasonable to believe the Bible is the Word of God = Yes!

Is it reasonable to believe in Jesus = Yes!

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@PGA2.0

Is it reasonable to believe the Bible is the Word of God = Yes!

Since it's your claim that god did not say let there be light what do you contend he did say? The word of god is lies, how does that work?

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