Is taxation theft?

Author: Mall
Law
Anarchist
rebellion

Posts

Total: 59
#31
yachilviveyachali
yachilviveyachali's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 267
0
2
4
yachilviveyachali's avatar
yachilviveyachali
0
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
I said people pay the government to do things for them. The implication here is that I understand the government does that which they cannot do or do not wish to do. 

Government is what gets things done.
Government gets many things done, and many things not done. Some of what it does is good, some of what it does is bad. What are the bad things to you? 
#32
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@yachilviveyachali
People don't pay the Government.

The Government are temporary paid employees of the State.

Established non-governmental institutions raise taxes. In the US It is referred to as the Internal Revenue Service.


And you can't please all of the people all of the time...John Lydgate.
#33
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,432
3
2
5
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
5
-->
@zedvictor4
What if your government said fuck it we're fed up with you moaning bastards,  go sort yourselves out.

In Bucky Fullers 1969 book.. ' Utopia or Oblivion ..' of collected talks he gave over time, in one he states..' if all the governments of the world were to suddenly stop existing, humanity would carry on just fine '...or something like that. Im paraphrasing from memory.

This is basically anarchy --to whatever degree-- working out how to keep families fed, clothed etc.  Become an entrepreneur or cease to exist.

However, I think Fuller is correct overall, yet in the details, a not so nice criminal like element would also fill the void.  To what degree would such an anarchy fall off into violent chaos.  Depends on various circumstances of where are the chess pieces are on the game board of Earth, when such a scenario of the governments go poof overnight.

Basically this is what Trump/MAGA/Republicans are attempting to do. 
#34
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,841
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
Government is what gets things done.

And taxation is what pays for it.
Good observation.
#35
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ebuc
People who espouse anti-government rhetoric, just seem to think that everything they take for granted, which is everything that facilitates a 21st century existence, just sort of happens as if by magic.

And ask them what is their alternative to a structured governmental system, and they have no answer.
#36
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 80
Posts: 4,363
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Established non-governmental institutions raise taxes. In the US It is referred to as the Internal Revenue Service.
Since when is the IRS a "non-governmental institution?" The IRS is an agency of the federal government under the umbrella of the Treasury, a Cabnet-level-led department  of the federal government in the Executive Branch. .
#37
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@fauxlaw
I would differentiate between the temporarily elected ruling body, and established institutions that administer the organisations and processes of State.

Obviously, all come under the general umbrella of government.

Though the guy down the street who has worked for 40 years as an IRS auditor...Does he govern you, or does he just crunch numbers for a living? 

In fact, in the US, almost 20 million people are employed by the State and local governments...Are they necessary, or just thieves who steal your money?
#38
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,841
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
In fact, in the US, almost 20 million people are employed by the State and local governments...Are they necessary, or just thieves who steal your money?
That is what Doge is struggling to answer.
#39
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Shila
DOGE.

Is that short for autocracy.
#40
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,833
3
3
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
3
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Nothing quite as autocratic as transparency lol
#41
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Nothing quite as autocratic as transparency lol.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Couldn't really get the gist of that statement.

Please clarify.
#42
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,833
3
3
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
3
2
-->
@zedvictor4
It was sarcasm.

DOGE = department of governmental efficiency

Exists solely to audit the government and publish everything it finds

That's as close to the opposite of autocracy or fascism or any other highly centralized highly invasive state that can exist without guillotines being involved.


Autocrats, fascists, nazis, communists, all want unquestioning obedience from the public and loyalty among the party/government officials. That's how you run a top down system.

To facilitate that, government secrets become routine and sacred. Audits and critiques become threats to the state and thus the nation.


DOGE and all decentralization and transparency agendas sacrifice loyalty of government officials (and their corrupt partners) for earned loyalty among the public.
#43
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Well, I guessed it was either sarcasm or satire.

Though I don't know if you sit on the fence or to the left or to the right.

I still don't know.


I would suggest that the very purpose of a Department of Government Efficiency is to autocratically strip a governmental system of waste and inefficiency.

Though in the US's case, I'm not at all sure of the sincerity of the autocratic head.


#44
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,833
3
3
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
3
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Though I don't know if you sit on the fence or to the left or to the right.
I hang off the metalwork of the beacon held aloft by the goddess liberty.

I may have no choice but to pick a tribe or be a bystander but I in no way identify with that outdated and never useful categorization from the french revolution.


I would suggest that the very purpose of a Department of Government Efficiency is to autocratically strip a governmental system of waste and inefficiency.
You can't just prefix a concept with a contradictory adjective and call it a day. It can be claimed that reducing government secrecy and thus power is beyond a certain office's authority; but no matter who does it or why, it is the opposite of the conditions autocracy requires.

I'm going to violently go to sleep now.
#45
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
I hang of the metalwork of the beacon held aloft by the goddess liberty.

I can picture you there.



I standby solitarily in the rural backwaters of the UK.

Should I be called to arms in the defence of liberty as my father was...I would not shirk.

Though I am forty years older than he was.

Trust no one were his watchwords...And so I don't.

Nonetheless, I still have a certain faith in the sensibilities of the British establishment, which allows me to sleep easy.


Nighty night.

Sweet dreams.
#46
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,841
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
Nonetheless, I still have a certain faith in the sensibilities of the British establishment, which allows me to sleep easy.


Nighty night.

Sweet dreams.
You still have a 10% tariffs imposed by Trump on your exports to America.
#47
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Shila
You still have 10% tariffs imposed by Trump on your exports to America.

Doesn't concern me...I export nothing to America.

10% of nothing is nothing.
#48
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,833
3
3
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
3
2
-->
@zedvictor4
I imported a large caliper from the UK. Actually made there too. Very reliable and accurate. This was nearly a decade ago.
#49
RemyBrown
RemyBrown's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 866
3
2
6
RemyBrown's avatar
RemyBrown
3
2
6
Is taxation theft?
Yes, and it's justified theft.  Without it, you don't get public schools.
#50
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Good.

I'm glad the you were pleased with your purchase.

Fortunately, you weren't hit with a 10% surcharge.

Though, I think that import duty has always been a thing.
#51
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,841
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
Doesn't concern me...I export nothing to America.

10% of nothing is nothing.
You are ignoring the largest market in the world.

33 days later

#52
MayCaesar
MayCaesar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 155
0
2
3
MayCaesar's avatar
MayCaesar
0
2
3
"Theft" implies a certain degree of covertness of the action, but the government takes money away openly and under a threat of violence. So taxation is not an act of theft, but it is an act of robbery, or "plunder", as Frederick Bastiat aptly called it.
#53
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@MayCaesar
Dear. Sir, Madam or Otherwise.,

It's absolutely up to you,  but if you would like to contribute a little something towards the running of community and national, infrastructure and services, then that would be very nice.

But please feel under no obligation whatsoever, to do so.

Yours sincerely.

Mr Fluffy.


#54
MayCaesar
MayCaesar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 155
0
2
3
MayCaesar's avatar
MayCaesar
0
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
Aside from the gun pointing at my face, this all sounds very benevolent. The gun makes it a little difficult to feel under no obligation whatsoever though. Makes me feel like I am being robbed, rather than asked nicely.
#55
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@MayCaesar
The gun pointing at my face, is something of a metaphor.

(Depends upon where you live though, I suppose).

A metaphor for I don't think that I should have to pay for social infrastructure and services, but I am compelled to do so by national laws.

Expecting everything, but contributing nothing, is a tad selfish is it not.

Robbed is a similar metaphor.
#56
MayCaesar
MayCaesar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 155
0
2
3
MayCaesar's avatar
MayCaesar
0
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
Perhaps it is selfish. Robbing a selfish person still constitutes an act of robbery, and it is not a metaphor: it is the nature of the act.
#57
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,832
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@MayCaesar
Everything that occurs within a universe is naturally occurring.

So in terms of nature, taxation is just as currently relative to human society and the universe, as robbery is.
#58
MayCaesar
MayCaesar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 155
0
2
3
MayCaesar's avatar
MayCaesar
0
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
Taxation is a form of robbery, so the terms have different relation to reality. One is a subset of the other.
#59
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 80
Posts: 4,363
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
The premise is too restrictively stated. In a society, it is evident that infrastructure that is collectively used, like city, state, and federal roads, need to be constructed and maintained, and as virtually all use them on a regular basis, it makes sense that we are taxed accordingly to cover those expenses. We may not individually use them on a daily basis, but to parse a tax by individual degrees of use seems an impossible exercise. The answer to that dilemma is not to abolish the tax, but to assume there is a collective normal use. That, then, is not robbery. Yes, there are conditions that can develop when either the tax revenue is abused by wasteful spending, and that consumes more tax revenue than prudent, so that can be viewed as robbery, particularly when revenue ends up being diverted from its intended uses by bureaucrats who think jealously that they have open season to use tax revenue for their own devices and not for the public good.