Self determinationism

Author: RemyBrown

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How come the American left supports self determination for Canada and not for Crimea?   If one consistently backed self determination, then they would not only support Canada being independent, but they would also support Crimea joining Russia (as well as any other areas that wanted to join Russia that are in Ukraine).

If your primary ethos is self determination for national borders, then be consistent with it.  But virtually nobody is.
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@RemyBrown
My position is that what people want matters.

I dont exactly pick rule of majority as a standard, but more like, each individual has wants and wants of each individual matter.

How is it applied in case of countries is complicated, but Canada is a better country than USA. Why would wants of USA matter more?

If USA tried to take Canada, that would be against Canada's wants and would only cause conflict.

Again, I dont feel too sorry for Canada here. Canada made a mistake of being ally with USA and now they are paying for that mistake. I just understand that this isnt what Canada wants.
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@RemyBrown
How come the American left supports self determination for Canada and not for Crimea?   If one consistently backed self determination, then they would not only support Canada being independent, but they would also support Crimea joining Russia (as well as any other areas that wanted to join Russia that are in Ukraine).

If your primary ethos is self determination for national borders, then be consistent with it.  But virtually nobody is.
Why do you support self-determination for the United States and not for Canada?

If your primary issue is self-determination for national borders, then be consistent with it.
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@TheGreatSunGod
My position is that what people want matters.

I dont exactly pick rule of majority as a standard, but more like, each individual has wants and wants of each individual matter.
Every individual has wants.  How do you measure it when it's a collection of individuals?

How is it applied in case of countries is complicated, but Canada is a better country than USA. 
Here's a meme you should check out:


If USA tried to take Canada, that would be against Canada's wants and would only cause conflict.
Same is true for Ukraine holding onto Crimea; most Crimeans are against it.

Again, I dont feel too sorry for Canada here. 
Then don't defend their independence.

You can sit this out.  Like, India vs Kashmir; India may be a US ally; but I don't take a strong position on Kashmir independence.  I don't know enough about the issue to comment.
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@RemyBrown
Face it, all arguments used to justify US independence are either emotional or refutable.

Rather than becoming North Mexico, I think Canada should annex the United States, we will also need to rename the gulf again, The Gulf of Canada. 
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@Sidewalker
Why do you support self-determination for the United States and not for Canada?
Americans want independence; right.  But lets say the US didn't have self determinationism.  Who would control us?  Mexico?  Mexico speaks Spanish and the US speaks English; I'd rather not.  If the US were to get annexed by Canada, then I'd be fine with that; the only difference between Canada annexing the US and vice versa is the name, the flag, and the stereotypical colors (all irrelevant stuff). There would be a vote as to if the US or Canadian constitution should take over (the American one just makes more sense; each state gets 2 senators; house of representatives is based on population; Canada has an unequal number of senators per province (even where provinces like NB have more senators than provinces like AT despite NB having way less people) and representatives aren't proportional to population).  America has term limits; Canada does not.

Canada also has like 1/8 the population of the US, and it makes more sense for the bigger nation to annex the smaller one than vice versa.

But who would take US sovereignty?  It would have to be a larger Anglophone nation, and no Anglophone nation is larger than the US.


RemyBrown
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@Sidewalker
Face it, all arguments used to justify US independence are either emotional or refutable.

Rather than becoming North Mexico, I think Canada should annex the United States, we will also need to rename the gulf again, The Gulf of Canada. 
Mexico speaks Spanish; the US speaks English; we should be separate.

Canada has 1/8 the population of the US; it's like the difference between the EU annexing the UK and the UK annexing the EU.  The former makes sense; the ladder is a nonstarter.
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@RemyBrown
Every individual has wants.  How do you measure it when it's a collection of individuals?
By respecting wants of each to some degree.

Same is true for Ukraine holding onto Crimea; most Crimeans are against it.
Sure.

Then don't defend their independence
Why wouldnt I?
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@TheGreatSunGod
Every individual has wants.  How do you measure it when it's a collection of individuals?
By respecting wants of each to some degree.
That's vague.  Be specific.

Same is true for Ukraine holding onto Crimea; most Crimeans are against it.
Sure.
So do you want Crimea to join Russia?  If so, then you got cancelled by the left.

Then don't defend their independence
Why wouldnt I?
Because you said you don't like Canada.  Like, on Israel/Palestine, I have no connection to either, I just try and call balls and strikes on the issue.  But if you don't like Israel, then you wouldn't defend Israel if it's a conflict that's foreign to you (I'm assuming you aren't Canadian, although I could be wrong).
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@RemyBrown
That's vague.  Be specific.
Why would I be specific? Each person has thousands of wants.

So do you want Crimea to join Russia?  If so, then you got cancelled by the left.
Lol okay

Because you said you don't like Canada
That doesnt mean I want it to become part of USA.
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@RemyBrown
Why do you support self-determination for the United States and not for Canada?
Americans want independence; right.  But lets say the US didn't have self determinationism.  Who would control us?  Mexico?  Mexico speaks Spanish and the US speaks English; I'd rather not. 
Rebuttal 1: Who cares?

If the US were to get annexed by Canada, then I'd be fine with that; the only difference between Canada annexing the US and vice versa is the name, the flag, and the stereotypical colors (all irrelevant stuff).
R2:Who cares? 

There would be a vote as to if the US or Canadian constitution should take over (the American one just makes more sense; each state gets 2 senators; house of representatives is based on population; Canada has an unequal number of senators per province (even where provinces like NB have more senators than provinces like AT despite NB having way less people) and representatives aren't proportional to population).  America has term limits; Canada does not.
R3:Once again, who cares? 

Canada also has like 1/8 the population of the US, and it makes more sense for the bigger nation to annex the smaller one than vice versa.
R4:Who cares?   Size doesn't matter, it's not the meat it's the motion.

But who would take US sovereignty?  It would have to be a larger Anglophone nation, and no Anglophone nation is larger than the US.
R5:Emotional argument.  Who cares?  Plus, Russia, Canada, and China, are all larger than the US. 

Canada is the larger Anglophone nation, so Canada wins, eh.  Our national sport is curling, that will take some getting used to.
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@RemyBrown
Face it, all arguments used to justify US independence are either emotional or refutable.

Rather than becoming North Mexico, I think Canada should annex the United States, we will also need to rename the gulf again, The Gulf of Canada. 
Mexico speaks Spanish; the US speaks English; we should be separate.
Rebuttal #1 Who cares, and pay attention, I said Canada should annex the United States, not Mexico.  Canada speaks English; we should not be separate.

Canada has 1/8 the population of the US; it's like the difference between the EU annexing the UK and the UK annexing the EU.  The former makes sense; the ladder is a nonstarter.
R2:Emotional argument.  Who cares? 

Once Canada annexes the US, they will have the much larger population.
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@TheGreatSunGod
So do you want Crimea to join Russia?  If so, then you got cancelled by the left.
Lol okay

I respect the consistency (even though the left thinks you're a fascist now); but understand then that's being influenced by peer pressure.

If this is your logic, then you have 2 options:

  1. Never agree to have Canada become part of the US whether the position approaches majority status or not.
  2. Understand that maybe 70% of Canadians don't want to join the US, but in the meantime, try and reduce that position's popularity by changing the minds of other people until it gets below 50%.

I can respect you doing #2.  But if you're in position 1, then what would be wrong with Canadian A (anti annexation) changing their minds individually to adopt the new position?  Every socialtial change at one point had less than 50% support; annexing Canada should be viewed no differently.  If the idea is in the minority, then have the idea become the majority via arguing with the existing pro independence majority.

That doesnt mean I want it to become part of USA.
If the majority of Canadians wanted to join the US, then would you be on board with it?  If so, then your position is really just, "I'll accept whatever the majority says" (which is essentially neutrality).  Anyone that is against the US annexing Canada solely because most Canadians don't want it is really neutral on the issue because if the majority of Canadians backed the US annexing Canada, then their position would change on a dime.  if you're neutral, then come as advertised; you aren't pro or against the US annexing Canada, you're just neutral on it.
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@Sidewalker
R1, R2, and R3:

Who cares?
I said this statement, but for me, it's ok to say this statement because I provided a rebuttal after the who cares.  You didn't here, so you can't play the "who cares" card; I can.

R4 and R5 you actually provide a rebuttal, so then it's alright; but otherwise, it's just low IQ.

R4:Who cares?   Size doesn't matter, it's not the meat it's the motion.
Size matters.  It's the difference between Russia annexing Crimea and Crimea annexing Russia.  The 1st is plausible even if you don't agree; the 2nd isn't.

R5:Emotional argument.  Who cares? 
I don't want to have to learn Chinese or Russian.  Too hard.

Canada is the larger Anglophone nation, so Canada wins, eh.
By land, it's too close to call; by population; not even close.  Population is what matters; not land area.  Otherwise, the UK is only about half English; in reality; it's like 80%.  In Canada; does Nunavut have about as much power as BC?  No; because BC has way more people.  With NY; Upstate NY has way more land area than NYC; but roughly the same amount of power due to roughly equal numbers of people.

Once Canada annexes the US, they will have the much larger population.
If you want to call it that, then fine.  It's the same thing as the US annexing Canada.  One state solution; call it whatever you want.
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@RemyBrown
How come the American left supports self determination for Canada and not for Crimea?   If one consistently backed self determination, then they would not only support Canada being independent, but they would also support Crimea joining Russia (as well as any other areas that wanted to join Russia that are in Ukraine).

If your primary ethos is self determination for national borders, then be consistent with it.  But virtually nobody is.
America has no say in the future of either country.
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How come the American left supports self determination for Canada and not for Crimea? 
Because Trump. That's as deep as their thinking goes. They see Trump support something so they do the opposite. The right hated Obama and we gave him our. Full support when he killed Saddam Hussein the left would never do the same.
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@WyIted
How come the American left supports self determination for Canada and not for Crimea?  
Because Trump. That's as deep as their thinking goes. They see Trump support something so they do the opposite. The right hated Obama and we gave him our. Full support when he killed Saddam Hussein the left would never do the same.
Americans respect Canada more.
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@RemyBrown
even though the left thinks you're a fascist now
Yeah, thats what fascist is.

If the majority of Canadians wanted to join the US, then would you be on board with it?
Maybe if 70% of people wanted it, and the rights of remaining 30% were guaranteed.

Anyone that is against the US annexing Canada solely because most Canadians don't want it is really neutral on the issue
Neutral =/= against

I dont even know where you get these ideas.
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@RemyBrown
 Every socialtial change at one point had less than 50% support; annexing Canada should be viewed no differently.
If we should not respect what people want, then your entire argument falls apart.