Call of Duty: Black Ops Mafia DP3

Author: ILikePie5

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#61
whiteflame
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@Mharman
I've been perusing the wiki during the game to evaluate some of the claims people have made. Did some surface-level research over there as well. Neitsch is a character I didn't even know about. Odds seems low, since Neitschplays a very minor role in the plot, if any at all. Yes, he's a playable character, but our characters and justifications seem to be in this game based on prevalence in the plot. Even someone minor like your character plays a greater role, reading up on the missions they were involved in. Incentives to go for a MYLO CC aside, this is the problem I have with Banana's claim.
Noted. I’ll also note that the character almost seems a little too well tied to the role. Compared with the flips and claims so far, at least, Banana’s seems to tie together more cleanly.

I think it’s a given scum has an RB or a redirector of some kind, but I disagree it necessitates anything beyond Cop+protective/extra investigation+strengthener for town in the setup. It’s already a pretty strong town corp, especially if there is a protective role, which there usually are in these games
Perhaps not. Still thinking on this, but it’s a small concern compared with other info we’ve been given.
#62
iamanabanana
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@whiteflame
@Mharman
My role pm does mention that I occur in only one mission but pie goes out of his way to elaborate how crucial the mission is to the stories plot considering it’s concerning weapons of mass destruction. But mharman all the things you pointed out about my character being minor equally apply to whiteflames character, in fact his seems even more minor than mine but you aren’t suspecting him for it. 
#63
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@iamanabanana
My role pm does mention that I occur in only one mission but pie goes out of his way to elaborate how crucial the mission is to the stories plot considering it’s concerning weapons of mass destruction. But mharman all the things you pointed out about my character being minor equally apply to whiteflames character, in fact his seems even more minor than mine but you aren’t suspecting him for it. 
Mharman is pretty clear about where he sees distinction between your and my character, though they are both clearly minor. Don’t think I agree based on what I’ve read that mine is more minor, but that’s arguable.
#64
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@whiteflame
Mharman is pretty clear about where he sees distinction between your and my character, though they are both clearly minor. Don’t think I agree based on what I’ve read that mine is more minor, but that’s arguable.
The entire significance of your character was to open a door? The character doesn’t speak a single word the whole mission? Idk but it seems pretty minor in comparison to the guy behind the desk giving directions to the main characters in my Opinion
#65
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@iamanabanana
The entire significance of your character was to open a door? The character doesn’t speak a single word the whole mission? Idk but it seems pretty minor in comparison to the guy behind the desk giving directions to the main characters in my Opinion
That seems… more than a little reductive. Not saying my character is massively important, but saying that all he did was hold open a door is a different story.
#66
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@whiteflame
I base my assessor characters based on the wiki.
#67
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@Mharman
I base my assessor characters based on the wiki.
Guessing there’s a bit of autocorrect in there. My assessor?
#68
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@whiteflame
Ok I typed that horribly

I base my assessment of characters on the wiki. I’d probably have to watch game footage to get a greater idea. I would say yours is the least prominent character if we’re not counting Banana, Banana is a bit behind you.

I have thought about this more since waking up. I think the justification matters more than the prevalence of character, 9 times out of 10.

I take greater issue with Earth’s than Banana’s.
#69
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@whiteflame
That seems… more than a little reductive. Not saying my character is massively important, but saying that all he did was hold open a door is a different story.

Agree to disagree. Your character doesn’t even come up when initially reading the wiki about the mission, if I google him specifically I find him though. My point is that you are in my opinion a minor character, but I still think you are basically town confirmed. Casting suspicion on my character for being minor for appearing in one mission ignores other factors of importance about my character, I just find it interesting that mharman points it out about my character but is seemingly okay with yours and is willing to accept the notion of a strengthener existing over a watcher and or tracker. Btw in almost every game I’ve played in one of these has existed.
#70
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@Mharman
Ah, that makes more sense.

As I see it, the debate here is between Banana and Earth. I don’t think both of their roles exist in a game with an Undercover Cop, and at least one of their results was either fucked with or a lie. I don’t love that Earth’s justification feels so utterly divorced from his character, so that’s still weighing on my views this DP, but I’m not decided yet.
#71
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@iamanabanana
Agree to disagree. Your character doesn’t even come up when initially reading the wiki about the mission, if I google him specifically I find him though. My point is that you are in my opinion a minor character, but I still think you are basically town confirmed.
It strikes me as odd that you would reduce my character’s role to opening a door when you’ve clearly done your research into the character. I’m not sure how I’m reading that, though I’ll note that I’m not actively sussing you just for having a minor character. 

Casting suspicion on my character for being minor for appearing in one mission ignores other factors of importance about my character, I just find it interesting that mharman points it out about my character but is seemingly okay with yours and is willing to accept the notion of a strengthener existing over a watcher and or tracker.
I get the distinct impression that he did sus my character when I claimed it. It’s only been because of behavioral reads that he’s changed his mind since then. You’ve been distinctly harder to read on that front.

Btw in almost every game I’ve played in one of these has existed.
Weaker argument. Trackers and Watchers are common, but I’ve seen them replaced with a Motion Detector before. I’ve seen them just be entirely absent. Usual game design isn’t going to inform my pick.
#72
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@whiteflame
Adding onto the previous post

When I’ve modded games, I’ve been extra particular about how justifications for characters and roles fit into my game design. Years ago I hosted NFL Mafia, and caught flak for giving the Bills a bad justification for Doctor.

I think most mods try to give their characters and roles good justifications as well. I’ve seen mods stretch for game design a bit (this would be the game to do it), but you can also just pull a lesser-known character for the sake of a better justification for a role you want in your game.

For this reason, I sus bad justifications more than I do obscure pulls.
#73
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@Earth
Going to get you back into this discussion, Earth.

You gave a rather abbreviated justification for your role here. I’m looking for you to expand on what your PM says. Regardless of whether it supports your justification, please paraphrase any extra information in your PM.
#74
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@Mharman
For this reason, I sus bad justifications more than I do obscure pulls.
That’s fair. I do want to dig down into Earth’s claim, as I’m trying to do with the above post directed at him. There’s a lot about his justification and claim in general that I sus, so I’m going to need as much information about it as I can get.

FWIW, I agree, just a matter of making sure I’m not missing anything important.
#75
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@whiteflame
It strikes me as odd that you would reduce my character’s role to opening a door when you’ve clearly done your research into the character. I’m not sure how I’m reading that, though I’ll note that I’m not actively sussing you just for having a minor character. 
I am basing this off of what you yourself claimed about the character.

I get the distinct impression that he did sus my character when I claimed it. It’s only been because of behavioral reads that he’s changed his mind since then. You’ve been distinctly harder to read on that front.
In my opinion, so has he.

Weaker argument. Trackers and Watchers are common, but I’ve seen them replaced with a Motion Detector before. I’ve seen them just be entirely absent. Usual game design isn’t going to inform my pick.
Your argument here is somewhat perplexing. I am only stating that a version of watcher or tracker has existed in the majority of games I’ve played not that it’s impossible for a game not to have one of these roles. If you are to dismiss my argument as weak here purely for the notion you have seen this role replaced on occasion with some of the variant roles, you are still admitting it’s less likely for these variant roles to outright replace a watcher or tracker, meaning my argument isn’t all that weak…
#76
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@whiteflame
Post 120 DP2. Nothing has changed about my behavioral assessment of Earth.
#77
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@iamanabanana
I am basing this off of what you yourself claimed about the character.
Except I didn’t say anything about him opening a door. That was your inclusion. I said he was essential to Mason escaping a labor camp.

In my opinion, so has he.
Not going to argue that, though Mharman has certainly posted more.

As for your last point, my main issue with it is that it’s modpsych. Almost every time I’ve had someone dictate to me what role must be in the game or could not possibly be in the game, if I’ve used to make a decision, it’s blown up in my face. Likelihood that in any random game would include this role just isn’t going to convince me, and considering you’re not referencing past Pie games, it’s not even specific to his tastes for roles like this.

#78
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@Mharman
Post 120 DP2. Nothing has changed about my behavioral assessment of Earth.
Yeah, those points still hold water for me too. 
#79
Cerulean
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Hello, I'm sorry for the delay, reading through thread right now.
#80
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@whiteflame
As for your last point, my main issue with it is that it’s modpsych. Almost every time I’ve had someone dictate to me what role must be in the game or could not possibly be in the game, if I’ve used to make a decision, it’s blown up in my face. Likelihood that in any random game would include this role just isn’t going to convince me, and considering you’re not referencing past Pie games, it’s not even specific to his tastes for roles like this.
Again I didn’t say it’s impossible for the role to be replaced. But you said my argument is weak, and I don’t see why it would be considered weak when every game I’ve played in has a certain role it would seem odd or different to me to see a game without that role. At the very least you should take this argument with a grain of salt instead of treating it with outright dismissal. Everyone keeps devaluing every point I make, or saying that it’s less impactful than it is or should be. Is it simply to be contrarian or do you actually believe a role claim that exists in most games should not be looked at as if it’s non existence is an outlier?
#81
Mharman
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@iamanabanana
Posts 68 and 72. Those are my current thoughts on your claim.

Whiteflame and you both have obscure characters. Yours a little more so.

Both of you have good justifications. Yours does have a conflict with Earth’s, however.

Behavior wise, Whiteflame looks way better than you, you look better than Earth, although I’ll need to reread everyone soon. I think the game is between Earth, you, and Cerulean atm

Earth’s character is more expected than yours and Whiteflame’s. But his justification is horrible.

That’s where I stand.
#82
Cerulean
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@whiteflame
Going to need a full claim from you to start as well as any night actions you might have taken.
Right. Understandable, because even without Earth's claim, we *are* in MYLO right now, right?

I am Jason Hudson, Muse. If I die, a Town-aligned player has their role disabled entirely. Justification is that Hudson was responsible for coordinating/planning with Mason for a lot of the game, so his death would lead to a loss in effectiveness. I wanted to avoid claiming this for as long as possible, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
#83
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@iamanabanana
Again I didn’t say it’s impossible for the role to be replaced. But you said my argument is weak, and I don’t see why it would be considered weak when every game I’ve played in has a certain role it would seem odd or different to me to see a game without that role. At the very least you should take this argument with a grain of salt instead of treating it with outright dismissal. Everyone keeps devaluing every point I make, or saying that it’s less impactful than it is or should be. Is it simply to be contrarian or do you actually believe a role claim that exists in most games should not be looked at as if it’s non existence is an outlier?
Arguing that a role is likely in the game because it's common to other games is, I would say, I weak argument. If it's strong for you because that's been your experience, then fine. At best, I'd say it's a minor point in favor of the existence of your role. It's not a personal attack on you to point out that it doesn't sway me much.

I'll point out as well, though, that we're all aware that scum got an opportunity to ask about the existence of four roles or characters. In a game with that mechanic, yes, I think it's entirely plausible that scum would claim a role that could be common to a variety of games. By that same token, I think it's plausible that scum might claim a more substantial character like Earth's claim. So that mechanic makes me second guess claims that I might expect to be in this game.

#84
Cerulean
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@Mharman
So Moozer is essentially confirmed by the Escape Artist. Earth/Banana looks like a difference check, which would suggest that Whiteflame/Mharman is the same. There is some nuance in that I suppose it's possible Earth/Banana could be v/v if there is indeed a redirector- but it seems like they would have to get particularly lucky to happen to get Banana and happen to do so in a way that implicates Earth. I'm not sure I believe it.

Anyway, I've come out, so Mharman, it's your turn to claim and explain why you're so confident that we need to vote this phase.
#85
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@Mharman
@Cerulean
I am Jason Hudson, Muse. If I die, a Town-aligned player has their role disabled entirely. Justification is that Hudson was responsible for coordinating/planning with Mason for a lot of the game, so his death would lead to a loss in effectiveness. I wanted to avoid claiming this for as long as possible, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
Alright, thanks for claiming. Not a role I'm familiar with, but yeah, I can understand wanting to hold back on this. If this role is real, then town had a lot of opportunities to potentially self-immolate with your death and WyIted being able to use his role for a mass RB. Strange that both yours and his role would circumvent mine, since I don't see a way my role could counter this (might want to check with Pie on that one).

Anyway, Mharman, you're up.
#86
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Hm... does Mharman or Whiteflame coach Banana into going for this sort of play in a world where that's the Mafia team? Earth was vulnerable after Day 2- he was a focus and received negative attention- so it does seem plausible that faking a red might be a choice there.

Problem is, if that didn't work, Earth would be semi-cleared by virtue of being Mafia mislynch target, right? Which forces a more difficult situation for the 2nd person in F4.
#87
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Alr Cerulean claimed.

I am Friedrich Steiner and I am the informed townie. Pie’s spin on it is that each night phase, I am told something about the game, with increasing usefulness.

The justification is that I was thought to be the last hope for information on Nova 6 and the numbers sequence, but was killed by Alex Mason before I could give the information to Hudson and Weaver.

NP1 I was told something but decided to hold off saying anything to avoid being a target. I’m glad I made the decision because here’s what I got NP2:

Scum has a method of obtaining an extra night kill for one night, but they do not know the method. This is why I said we should not VTNL, if they figure it out, it’s game over.

I am withholding the NP1 result out of concerns the two pieces of information might be related; specifically, I’m concerned if I reveal it will give scum a hint. Do not openly speculate about this.
#88
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@whiteflame
I don’t see this argument going anywhere, I suppose we can agree to disagree. My point isn’t that I am town confirmed or anything so it’s kind of redundant to argue, my point was the hypocrisy in which some claims are viewed in light of others but that’s largely perspective. Mharman sees your character as stronger than mine, I do not based on my own role pm. My only question is whether he actually believes it or if it’s more convenient to believe your character is of less importance. Note he doesn’t ever really explain why, you have more than he has.

Anyways my PoE is exactly mharman, earth or cerulean. Both scum have to be in this group. Only way earth can be town is if he was redirected. I am not entirely sure if I believe that or not, but am willing to consider the possibility.
#89
Cerulean
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@whiteflame
I did actually check on whether or not Strengthener would work- Pie told me it's basically that if I die, the victim's ability is just gone, so it can't be used in the first place and therefore couldn't be strengthened.

It doesn't fit Pie modpsych to include a role like Strengthener and then not have anything to strengthen against, right? So there must be something wolves have going on under the hood... unless Strengthener was a guess hoping that there existed some Town power that could be strengthened against.
#90
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@Mharman
Just a second. If you're not lying and we're forced to lynch today, then the scum having an extra nightkill doesn't really matter, does it?

If we lynch right and go to Final 5, one kill or two kills brings us to Final 3 or Final 4. In either case, we still have another lynch. So I don't see the issue with speculating about it.