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@whiteflame
Must all gentiles be vegetarian as per Noah's laws?
Non-Orthodox Jews cannot find a good reason to oppose converting to Christianity.
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@whiteflame
Okay. I will ask others elsewhere but they tend to say 7 laws of Noah and then don't clarify.
@Adaptable
All the Apostles were Jewish. Theres a guy called Luke who wasnt.
I mean, true, sure. I am not saying no Jew followed Jesus. I am just saying much more gentiles did.
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@AdaptableRatman
The non-odthodox Jews must explain who the Messiah is if not Jesus.
No, they don’t, the Jewish Messiah is in the future, he will be a human leader from the line of King David who is expected to restore Israel, rebuild the Temple, and usher in a time of universal peace. That person has not arrived yet, and so there is no need to identify who it is.
With all due respect to Christianity and its beliefs; the idea that Jesus fulfilled Judaic Prophecy about the Messiah is simply not true from the Jewish point of view. Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies of Judaism and He did not possess the personal qualifications of Judaism’s Messiah.
Jesus did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
He did not bring all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6),
He did not fulfill the central theme of Judaic Messianic prophecy, which was to bring about an age of perfection with universal peace and worldwide acceptance of the God of Judaism. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34).
In fact, the fundamentalist Christian contention about the Messiah regarding divisiveness and exclusivity is diametrically opposed to the Judaic prophecy that the Messiah would unite mankind to live in perfect harmony as one.
The Christian belief in the divinity of Christ and the virgin birth and is not at all consistent with Judaic prophecy of the Messiah. The Messiah of Judaic prophecy was to be completely human, born of two human parents, and descended on his father’s side from King David (Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24).
Jesus contradicted the Torah and claimed that many of its commandments were no longer applicable. The Torah states all mitzvot remains binding forever, that the Messiah will lead all of the people to full Torah observance, and it states that anyone attempting to change the Torah is a false prophet.
There is absolutely no concept of a “second coming” of the Messiah in Judaic Scripture and the Jewish Messiah is to rule Israel during the age of perfection, Jesus did not do so. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)
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@AdaptableRatman
Jesus said the only way to the Father is through him.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
1 Corinthians 7:7
For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
Matthew 7:7-8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
1 Corinthians 8:1-2
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Was that for gentiles only?
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
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@AdaptableRatman
All the Apostles were Jewish. Theres a guy called Luke who wasnt.
Luke was a convert.
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@AdaptableRatman
No, Jesus fits the messianic prophesy and was of the bloodline of King David via Mary.Idk why they also point out Joseph even more directly being from King David since that contradicts virgin birth. Pretty irrelevant if Joseph is of King David's bloodline as he is a stepdad dad of Jesus.
TheMessiah of Judaic prophecy was to be completely human, born of two humanparents, and descended on his father’s side from King David (Genesis 49:10,Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24).
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@Sidewalker
But Joseph is of King David's bloodline.
Lets say messiah isnt Jesus. Then who is and who are gentiles meant to follow to get to heaven?
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@Sidewalker
Luke was gentile Christian, not Messianic Jew.
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@Sidewalker
Idk what you quoting those verses proves.
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@AdaptableRatman
But Joseph is of King David's bloodline.
Then you deny the Virgin birth?
Lets say messiah isnt Jesus. Then who is and who are gentiles meant to follow to get to heaven?
We must shift our expectations from what is to what could be.
Jesus experienced a radical transformation of consciousness that transcended the normal egotistic dysfunctions of mind and achieved a complete awareness of his connectedness with the whole, a true realization of the core teachings of His Jewish faith. It was an inner transformation that resulted in a leap to an entirely different level of being that allowed him to actualize the spiritual dimension within.
Jesus had broken through the interior conceptual walls that separate man, expressing this world-transcending wisdom with world-transcending symbols. Ironically, we have built a religion around His life and death that translate His teachings back into the types of verbalized thoughts that structure the interior walls that He had transcended and represented to mankind.
It does not matter what our background, faith or religion is, because in a higher state of consciousness, we transcend them all. When we transcend, we move beyond all dogma and differences. In unity consciousness, we know and appreciate the oneness of all living things.
This is why the Bible tells us that Christianity speaks of a Truth that makes men free, and that “the word of God is not bound”
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@AdaptableRatman
Idk what you quoting those verses proves.
Then you aren't paying attention.
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@Sidewalker
Do you even know what the first commandment is?
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@AdaptableRatman
Do you even know what the first commandment is?
Gee whiz, that's a tough one.
Is it "Thou shall denigrate Jews and Muslims"?
Some and this is not a joke, believe Jared Kushner is the Messiah.
@WyIted
Omg you are Hitler
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@AdaptableRatman
Orthodox [Jews] are modern day Pharisees. Talmud is corrupt.
What that is Earth-based is not either corrupt, or corruptible?
The non-odthodox Jews must explain who the Messiah is if not Jesus.
x
Why is Jesus only the messiah for gentiles? Who is their messiah?
Uh, you just said, Jesus is the Messiah for the gentiles. Do you mean who is the Messiah for all = non-gentiles? That is not what you asked, however. But, to answer the question, Jesus said is came for all as Messiah. His atonement even covers Satan and his 1/3 of the host of heaven who were cast out of heaven before the creation of Earth and its residents. It is said that his atonement is infinite, meaning for all, and for all reasons, not just our sins, but our sorrows and disappointments, and even Satan and his minions. But they all, that third, as well as he, himself, will ultimately reject the atonement by their own decision and not coerced by God.
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@Sidewalker
the Jewish Messiah is in the future,
Their mistake. Jesus was the Messiah, and Orthodox Jews then and now, as a whole, do not recognize him. However, on an individual basis, there are some who have converted, and I am close to at least three families I know who number among converts. All that you mention of a future Messiah, for whom Orthodox Jews, and others, await, is Jesus Christ, and they will, again on an individual basis, recognize him and worship him, and he will accomplish all that has been said of him to accomplish. There will, then, still be those who oppose him still, including Satan and his minions.
Yes, Luke was likely a convert. But, Luke, while being a disciple, that term is not synonymous with "apostle, " of whom there were twelve, and all of those originally chosen were of the House of Judah, and from no other of the original 12 tribes of Israel [Jacob, renamed to that name], while it is true that those original twelve apostles [less Judas Iscariot, who was rejected, and died by his own hand, and replaced by Mathias] will, among others, like perhaps Christ, himself, be "the judgment of all" when that time comes for all tribes of Isreal, and all others, as well, who have ever lived on Earth.
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@Sidewalker
TheMessiah of Judaic prophecy was to be completely human, born of two humanparents, and descended on his father’s side from King David
No, not a single one of the verses you have cited from Genesis to Ezekiel say that Jesus will be born of two human parents [you mean mortal, because God is human, too] and descended from his father's side. They say only that his parentage will be of the House of David [who was of the House of Judah]. Mary, was also of royal lineage from the House of David, so in her is the bloodline of David. Jesus Christ is the literal son of God, the Father. His conception and birth is miraculous in that regard, as the only person born on Earth that was not born of a mortal sireship. Joseph, was, as well, of the House of David and Judah, and also of royal blood, but he is not the sired father of Jesus Christ. Joseph and Mary were cousins. Why else would Joseph have been restrained by an angel to not putt his espoused Mary away by divorce, as he first intended to do. Only because he knew he was not the father of her unborn child [Matthew 1: 20, 21].
the Jewish Messiah is in the future,Their mistake. Jesus was the Messiah, and Orthodox Jews then and now, as a whole, do not recognize him. However, on an individual basis, there are some who have converted, and I am close to at least three families I know who number among converts. All that you mention of a future Messiah, for whom Orthodox Jews, and others, await, is Jesus Christ, and they will, again on an individual basis, recognize him and worship him, and he will accomplish all that has been said of him to accomplish. There will, then, still be those who oppose him still, including Satan and his minions.Yes, Luke was likely a convert. But, Luke, while being a disciple, that term is not synonymous with "apostle, " of whom there were twelve, and all of those originally chosen were of the House of Judah, and from no other of the original 12 tribes of Israel [Jacob, renamed to that name], while it is true that those original twelve apostles [less Judas Iscariot, who was rejected, and died by his own hand, and replaced by Mathias] will, among others, like perhaps Christ, himself, be "the judgment of all" when that time comes for all tribes of Isreal, and all others, as well, who have ever lived on Earth.
I know what the Christian faith believes, I was responding to the question of the Jewish understanding, and I was explaining why the concept of Jesus as the Messiah does not align with Jewish understanding of the Messiah.
Christianity interprets the Hebrew Bible differently than Judaism does, I know that, I was talking about the Jewish understanding of the Tanakh. I also believe that the assertions that Judaism is wrong, or that this somehow means they cannot attain heaven is not supported by the Christian Bible.
I also believe we have to see religious one-upmanship within the context of Isaiah 55:8-9, both are merely two different human understandings of something that transcends human comprehension at this time. The Bible is explicit that there are various ways of imperfect human understanding (John 14:2 and 1 Corinthians 7:7), that none are adequate (1 Corinthians 8:1-2), that there are various expressions but one and the same spirit within every man (Luke17:21), and therefore, we are not to Judge one another (Matthew7:1 and forty or fifty others).
Judaism is the religion of Jesus, and Christianity is a religion about Jesus, for Christianity to disparage and condemn Judaism is particularly hypocritical and offensive.
If the Holy Spirit exists in each of us, as the Bible says, and if it manifests in people in many ways, as the Bible says, then attacking other ways of understanding is the one and only unforgivable sin according to Jesus (Matthew 12:31-32 and Mark 3:29).
Jesus was a Jew, the way the Holy Spirit manifested in him, resulted in Christianity, then wouldn't it be an unforgivable sin to condemn the religion of Jesus, in the name of Jesus?
Scripture referenced
Isaiah 55:8-9
For mythoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than yourways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
John 14:2
In my Father's house aremany mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare aplace for you.
1 Corinthians 7:7
For I would that all menwere even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one afterthis manner, and another after that.
1 Corinthians 8:1-2
Now as touching thingsoffered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledgepuffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Luke17:21
Neithershall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Matthew7:1
Judgenot, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 12:31-32:
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 3:29:
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.
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@Sidewalker
Where did I disparage Judaism?
As for Islam, it is impossible to be a true Christian and consider Islam valid. The 10 commandments render that fundamemtally implausible due to commandments 1 and 4 among other things in the Bible.
I know what the Christian faith believes, I was responding to the question of the Jewish understanding, and I was explaining why the concept of Jesus as the Messiah does not align with Jewish understanding of the Messiah.
To the Jews Jesus was a blasphemer.
John 10:33 "We are not stoning You for any good work ...
The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Modern Christians see Jews as Christ killers. That is how they justified the Holocaust. Jesus had his justice.
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@Sidewalker
I always assumed that was the case.
Afterall, how could Jesus be the messiah if he did not fulfill one of the prophecies, The Third Temple of Israel?
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@Sir.Lancelot
I always assumed that was the case.Afterall, how could Jesus be the messiah if he did not fulfill one of the prophecies, The Third Temple of Israel?
The temple was destroyed by the Romans after Jesus’s death. The temple was destroyed in 70AD.
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@Shila
I always assumed that was the case.Afterall, how could Jesus be the messiah if he did not fulfill one of the prophecies, The Third Temple of Israel?The temple was destroyed by the Romans after Jesus’s death. The temple was destroyed in 70AD.
That's the second temple, the first (Solomon's Temple) was destroyed in 586 BCE.
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@Sidewalker
What religion are you
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@AdaptableRatman
As for Islam, it is impossible to be a true Christian and consider Islam valid.
Nope, many true Christians consider Islam valid.
The 10 commandments render that fundamentally implausible due to commandments 1 and 4 among other things in the Bible.
Oh, for crying out loud, you really have no idea what you are talking about.
Muslims do keep the 1st Commandment, so do Jews, both Islam and Judaism see Christianity as violating the first Commandment because of the Trinity belief. in both the Incarnation is a blasphemous idea. If you disqualify Islam because their Sabbath falls on Friday, then Christianity is disqualified because their "so called" Sabbath falls on Sunday. Sunday is not the Sabbath day.
Judaism considers the Sabbath to be from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown. Accordingly, Christianity does not "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy", instead they worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, in honor of the resurrection falling on a Sunday. Most Christians think Sunday is the Sabbath, it is not, it is the day of worship because of the resurrection, which demonstrates that they do not comply with the fourth Commandment, you can't argue that Christians remember the Sabbath and keep it holy if they don't even know what day the Sabbath is.
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@Sidewalker
Nope, many true Christians consider Islam valid.
In Islam it is written to consider christians and jews as enemies and also that Allah is the only God ever allowed to be entertained a plausible inside of an Islamic society.
It allows sex slavery and a lot of horrific things.
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@AdaptableRatman
What religion are you
I am a Christian.
Consequently, I recognize that the central commandments of Christianity are that “The Lord our God is one Lord” which expresses a divine unity, and we must “love our neighbors as we love ourselves”, there are no other commandments greater than these in Christianity. Logically, it follows that to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, we must necessarily recognize that his religion is to him, what our religion is to us.
The basic Christian epistemological postulate is that God transcends human understanding, the limiting distinctions and categories of normal human thought just do not apply; human knowledge is "finite" knowledge and the way we "know" is a function of our limited capacity to know. The true reality is much more, perhaps infinitely more, than we think it is, much more than we are even capable of thinking. God is transcendent to human knowledge; we can never have perfect understanding of God; at best He is as “seen through a glass darkly” such that “no man knows as he ought to know”. I think you can broadly characterize religious cognition as such that there is a direction involved in the journey, and you can characterize the associated epistemological development as an ascent of religious discernment.
If you stand the various religions side by side you can draw lines horizontally between them and find great differences, but these are the surface level differences, cultural differences of form rather than content, solely exoteric differences. But there is another way to draw the lines, you can draw them vertically along a graded scale of ascending religious discernment in esoteric recognition that every religion has, underlying their various and conflicting literal meanings, a transcendent dimension, which is essential, primordial and universal. Ontologically speaking, there is a transcendent Divine Unity, commonly referred to as God; and using the vertically graded scale of the Christian worldview it can be said that “above” the religions converge, and “below” they differ. I think it can also be said that epistemologically speaking, and on the same Christian vertical scale that I referred to as ascending religious discernment, that cognitively, religious discernment unites also. Each religion approaches the transcendent reality from different cultural directions or frames of references, but they do essentially converge on this understanding of the epistemology of knowledge.
the Absolute Unity that is referred to with the word God defies visualization or even consistent description, and the Philosophia Perennis which is being imparted by those who wrote the Bible is in fact, represented in a variety of cultural contexts, it is one and the same Spirit that is presented in a variety of different forms in all of the great religions of Mankind. The Divine Unity in all its fullness cannot in any way be circumscribed or even exhaustively defined by any single tradition, to circumscribe is to bound and limit, and “the word of God is not bound”.
This understanding is Biblically derived, Divine unity is not just the concept that there is one God; it precludes any existence apart from God. The Christian vision is of a Metaphysical tiered reality with a transcendent and Divine Unity at its apex, usually referred to with the word God, which is an absolute, categorical, undifferentiated Unity in which we live and move and have our being. For it to be the reality in which “we live and move and have our being”, this Divine Unity must include everything, if anything possessed reality apart from it, this would reintroduce the division that Absolute Unity by definition precludes. While the Christian faith cannot circumscribe the Divine Unity, the Divine Unity of the Christian faith does circumscribe the other ways of seeing within different contexts.
The various founders and great religious leaders were esoterics that had travelled farther than the audience they were addressing, which is why we consider them to be people of authority, they were above the line and the journey is in their direction, from exoteric to esoteric understanding, or from the letter to the Spirit, so to speak. I think this is why we have esoterics like Meister Eckhart saying things like “The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me”.
Going back to our graded cognitive scale of the religious journey, epistemologically speaking, the Divine Unity precludes final distinction between knower and known, and anthropologically speaking, precludes final distinction between human and divine. Jesus said things like “The Father and I are one” while he also said things like “Why do you call me good, no man is good but God alone”. Perhaps these statements only appear to be contradictory, but from the “higher” understanding of esoteric consciousness, they are different aspects of one and the same truth.
Christ said he came for “all men”, transcending the very concept of religious exclusivity, and I believe that religious one-upmanship is a betrayal of His spirit. As a Christian I believe “The Lord our God is one Lord” which expresses a divine unity in which I can also say that I believe Jesus was his Savior, Muhammad was his Prophet, and Buddha was his Enlightened One. It is from this Christian perspective that I believe that the conflicting religious influences that seem to tear our world apart can disappear, and it is the logical basis for my strong conviction that all faiths are One.
That's the second temple, the first (Solomon's Temple) was destroyed in 586 BCE.
Jesus was not a temple fan. He preached out in the open.