I thought Holy Spirit and Satan could both fill me together, but that clearly doesnt work. I will remain with Satan as a better choice.
Premarital sex may not be unbiblical
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@AdaptableRatman
That is the best way to make it fair on all sexualities. It is why married or worse, fornicating, protestant or orthodix pastors/priests are complete hypocrites when telling gays, sluts andnothwe sexually immoral people not to have sex and to avoid masturbation.It is as if you want to singke out the naturally non typical.hetero and say "you cant have sex but the rest of us can easily have fun doing it". Wrong.All should fight the urge but marriage and being parents is the reason God gave us the urges.
I'm five pages late to say this, but lol. The Bible is anything but "fair on all sexualities."
Paul encourages everyone to be celibate, but heterosexuals may marry and engage in sex to take the edge off. Homosexuals may not; the very idea of them taking spouses or having sex according to their orientation is an affront to God and a violation of the natural order. Leviticus dictates it is punishable by death.
Keeping in mind that this is all a modern discussion of the text; the Bible was written before sexual orientations were yet a concept. There were no "gay" or "straight" people, as thought of then -- there was just gay sex and straight sex, and gay sex was forbidden.
BUT if you're dead-set on basing your modern sexual ethics on the Bible (a highly questionable decision, but okay) then a reasonable takeaway is "don't have sex, but if you have to, marry hetero and have hetero sex, never divorce, and only have gay sex if you want to be put to death." Fair on all sexualities indeed.
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@Castin
Yes it is. Divorce is allowed btw but remarriage after divorce rather than via annulment is not.
I go by Catechism of the Catholic Church and their ethos, not solely Bible but of course Bible is where it all stems from. Bible is the source, Catechism is the way to go about finalising and living it.
If your marriage is not intended to result in parenting via procreation and you cannot as infertiles even be a mother-father pair for the adopted children, you are more likely suited to other avenues of having a fulfilling life.
It seems everyone except Catholics think sex is the way to fulfil life. It is just insane. I never realised how truly insane that core idea was until recently which was one of many factors in my conversion.
Shrug. The way to "fulfill life" is to pursue what brings you joy and meaning. If that is your relationship to another consenting adult -- of any sex -- then of course you should be with that person, regardless of whether the pair of you can procreate. Denying yourself that because of a book written at a time when slavery was okay is just pure and utter nonsense, persisting only in the minds of those who value dogma over people.
I feel like people just miss the main thrust of Paul's sexual ethics. The man thought there just wasn't time for all that shit -- sex, attachments, marriage. Jesus is about to come back, and so soon that worldly concerns will soon be irrelevant. Married life just keeps you more distracted by worldly matters: pleasing your spouse, the household, the finances, whatever. So he says if you're married, stay married, but if you're not, it's better you stay single and celibate. Devote yourself to God; that's what is really about to count when Jesus returns. Listen to what he's saying. "Time is short." "The present form of this world is about to pass away."
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@Castin
The Bible is anything but "fair on all sexualities."
What? You mean Bible God telling people to kill gays, trans and zoophiles isnt fair? And Christians having death penalty for these for 1000 years isnt fair?
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@TheGreatSunGod
What? You mean Bible God telling people to kill gays, trans and zoophiles isnt fair? And Christians having death penalty for these for 1000 years isnt fair?
Wait, where does the Bible say anything about trans people?
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@Castin
Wait, where does the Bible say anything about trans people?
He commands men who wear women clothes to be killed.
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@Castin
I admit Paul is an odd one, how that oddball ended up founding a huge chunk of our Scripture is an example of austistic savantism in my opinion. Most will takr that as blasphemy. I mean it as a neutral observation, no insult.
I am somewhat heretical to him on banning all females from clergy and politics. I will not say he was entirely wrong on sex though. He and St. Augustine did take it a little too far. The reality is celibacy is fine and admirable but not super admirable such that parenting is evil. Sex inside marriage is fine too, within parameters.
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@Castin
Old Testament mainly talks against Trans, New does nothing to contradict it so it still holds valid.
Men must be masculine and vice versa in our faith.
Oh yeah, Deut says it's abhorrent to cross dress. I don't remember it saying crossdressers shall be killed though.
I don't think the Bible's authors were aware of the concept of trans people, but we can be pretty confident they would have been dicks about it, I think.
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@Castin
Bible has death penalty for disobeying parents too.
"If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."
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@Castin
The way modern Caths take the stone parable is literal more than some greater 'don't ever cast judgement' concept but then again probably some take it as that.
A Catholic Priest may also say it is about taking our time before rushing to judge rather than never judging.
It was about death penalty being reversed. Some oddball Cath fundamentalists say because her fellow adulterer was not present to be executed with her, that is why Jesus said do not do it but in my eyes, that clearly is not Jesus' meaning, he was tweaking Moses' law there with a straight up alteration to if stoning/execution is okay.
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@Castin
I don't think the Bible's authors were aware of the concept of trans people, but we can be pretty confident they would have been dicks about it, I think.
Trans people usually wear clothes of opposite gender.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
A man with a broken soul loves nothing, not even life. These are the people who commit suicide. I believe it is a common misconception that suicide is caused by people who can't stand the pain, but that would fail to explain the people who underwent horrible tortures such as in concentration camps and yet were unbroken.
It's silly to think a broken person is likely to commit suicide. A person can be profoundly broken, and have no desire to commit suicide. Those who commit suicide may be some of the most sane, unbroken types. To be broken is to carry on, knowing you will become more and more broken and being indifferent to it. You are probably not broken.
You go to some stupid lengths to prove a point. This means you are more normal and ordinary than think.
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@AdaptableRatman
I admit Paul is an odd one, how that oddball ended up founding a huge chunk of our Scripture is an example of austistic savantism in my opinion. Most will takr that as blasphemy. I mean it as a neutral observation, no insult.I am somewhat heretical to him on banning all females from clergy and politics. I will not say he was entirely wrong on sex though. He and St. Augustine did take it a little too far. The reality is celibacy is fine and admirable but not suoer admirable sucj that parenting is evil. Sex inside marriage is fine too, within parameters.
I regard him as wonderfully eccentric. Our earliest source on Jesus and a truly passionate chap, if quirky.
And if you're referring to 1 Corinthians 14:34–35, the good news is that the scholarly world widely considers it to be a fraudulent passage or interpolation. And if you're referring to anything in 1 Timothy, scholars don't think he wrote it. I think on the whole Paul was probably quite accepting of women, for his time.
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@TheGreatSunGod
I don't think the Bible's authors were aware of the concept of trans people, but we can be pretty confident they would have been dicks about it, I think.Trans people usually wear clothes of opposite gender.
I mean, this is where it gets a bit confusing, isn't it? They're wearing the clothes of the gender they identify with, which isn't technically crossdressing. The Bible just wasn't meant to address the complexities of modern gender ideation.
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@Castin
Denying yourself that because of a book written at a time when slavery was okay is just pure and utter nonsense, persisting only in the minds of those who value dogma over people.
Slavery is apparently ok now, as there continue to be slaves in the world.
I don't know why atheists bother to talk about morality. What is there without God? Why should we bother trying to be nice? You think it is wrong if homosexuals are judged...why? Have you invented these morals?
Why should I value people over dogma? Dogma cannot be changed; it is NATURE.
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@yachilviveyachali
Slightly untrue, the last part. Our dogma has changed with time (but maybe you mean Bible here rather than Catechism)
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@yachilviveyachali
We should be nice btw. It is in our scripture to be nice when we can.
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@yachilviveyachali
It's silly to think a broken person is likely to commit suicide.
I define suicide as (one of) the most broken things someone can do.
You go to some stupid lengths to prove a point. This means you are more normal and ordinary than think.
I never said I was broken, I never said I was perfect. I have values and I have convictions, application is complicated. That's the closet to whole a real person can be.
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@Castin
I mean, this is where it gets a bit confusing, isn't it? They're wearing the clothes of the gender they identify with, which isn't technically crossdressing.
Bible doesnt agree to gender they identify with. For Bible God, man is man. And it doesnt even matter if man says he is not man. They had death penalty for disobeying parents(trans people often must disobey parents) and visiting spiritists, but sure they would welcome trans people with open arms.
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@Castin
The only trans Catholics fully support even more than seculars even, are intersex. We encourage them to become women or men.
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@Castin
Caths fully uphold Corinth as his and dont care if Timothy was scribed on his behalf they uphold it too.
His writing are literally the sole reasoning behind why we ban female clergy after all.
I am not sure this is a good topic anyway as you are a woman and it seems as if I am a misogynist to you this moment. I think men suit leadership better by far on average and thought that even in my secular days.
Would I say this with my real name attached publicly in 2025? Likely not. I don't really want to make a big deal of that. For me women being in charge more often is actually due to weak men, protestantism and atheism more than the women. I want to help fix the men first.
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@yachilviveyachali
Denying yourself that because of a book written at a time when slavery was okay is just pure and utter nonsense, persisting only in the minds of those who value dogma over people.Slavery is apparently ok now, as there continue to be slaves in the world.I don't know why atheists bother to talk about morality. What is there without God? Why should we bother trying to be nice? You think it is wrong if homosexuals are judged...why? Have you invented these morals?Why should I value people over dogma? Dogma cannot be changed; it is NATURE.
Dogma changes constantly. The dogmas you worship now are not the dogmas the Hebrews did. They are not even the dogmas the early Christians did. Over the centuries, believers have unceasingly renegotiated with the Bible.
And slavery is almost universally condemned in the modern world; in the ancient world it was so normative that God himself condoned it.
On atheists and morality, I guess this is where vertical vs horizontal morality comes in. Theists have vertical morality; something is only wrong if a power higher than them says so. Morality is based on hierarchy and authority. Atheists have horizontal morality; they look at the people around them and what harm could befall them. Morality is based on empathy and humanist values. (To ridiculously over-generalize. Both theists and atheists are individuals with widely varying perspectives.)
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@AdaptableRatman
The only trans Catholics fully support even more than seculars even, are intersex. We encourage them to become women or men.
This deserves its own thread, honestly. Why change them from what God made them? Why does "you are the body you're born with" not matter if you're born intersex? Etc.
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@Castin
I have been up all night where I live and am going now.
What I will say is this is a very sensitive topic on all sides.
We are very empathetic to trans people. They are sick and need help. Yes, I cannot say it that way in general life. You know when I say sick I mean the inverse solution to help cure the sickness to what the mainstream psychiatry dictates. Quite frankly idk how modern day psychologists even more so than psychiatrists can be religious in Abrahamic faiths as the entire solution to many sexual and gender issues mandated to them to advise/give violates our faiths directly.
I want to simply say this.
Intersex people are not trans people in our eyes. They are impotents either originally boy or girl and designed to naturally either have a male or female soul.
Part of why some have such conditions may be linked to the fourth commandment saying Yhwh curses to the 3rd and sometimes even 4th generation of those that betrayed, denied or hated him via either denying him in heart or worshipping false deities actively.
I say Yhwh as I respect the Jewish tradition to not use his full spelled name in a casual tone (in vain, it is also why they say G_d or G*d but I am not able to talk about God easily in English without using the o, it alsp is a different standard of what is 'in vain'. Yhwh in vain is broader and only use the a and e when saying you worship him or praising him (or speaking of him to a disbeliever sayin 'in - name... I rebuke etc')
As for who is named Yhwh it is not Father alone it is all 3 together.
We are very empathetic to trans people. They are sick and need help
They are not sick. They dont need or want your specific type of help. They just want to be what they want to be. They arent your property.
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@Castin
In ancient Greece, dogma was something that “seemed true.” It came to mean tenet or principle in Latin. I believe God is nature, and that every sin in the Bible can be proven to be bad by nature. This is why the promiscuous are more likely to be diseased, and the gluttons likely to be plagued by their excess. A prideful person is more likely to suffer, and an envious person more likely to do harm. All of these truths can be found in the Bible, in the Old and New Testaments. Worshiping other Gods is idolotry, murder is a grave sin, and taking that which is not yours is wrong.
It is wrong to say “dogma changes constantly.” The principles do not change, not when you follow.
And slavery is almost universally condemned in the modern world; in the ancient world it was so normative that God himself condoned it.
The condemnation does not mean much when there are millions of slaves in the world, some of whom are enslaved in Western countries, or making products those in Western countries use. Do you think you have never used a product not made by the hands of a slave? What about all the children forced to pick coffee beans? And the fruits you eat? What about the clothes you wear and technology you use?
Where does it say God condones slavery? God has less to do with slavery than you and I do. He is not using products made by slaves. Take it up with Satan if you dislike slavery.
Atheists have horizontal morality; they look at the people around them and what harm could befall them.
How convenient. All the atheists say this. I wonder why it is harmful, if it is not intrinsically wrong? It is almost as if it were all set into motion. The rules weren't made by you.
Without God, there is nothing. We are nothing more than animals with phony ideas about the world, an over-evolved species no longer fit for anything.
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@AdaptableRatman
Don't you know the scripture teaches the kingdom of heaven is within?