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@AdaptableRatman
The latest figures confirm 16,503 children have been killed in Gaza since the conflict began.
OMG, are Jews atheists?
Did God condone slavery?
Posts
Total:
73
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@FLRW
A lot of them are actually, yes. They often seem to assume race equals religion.
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@AdaptableRatman
Well, one of the most famous Jews, Albert Einstein said,
‘The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses,’ , ‘the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this.’
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@FLRW
Yes we know. The cocaine and sex addicted terrible husband whose second wife was his direct cousin.
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@Castin
The real question is: do you condone slavery?
Do you drink coffee? Slavery persists on coffee farms.
I don't need to drink coffee; I have enough energy. In the last 12 hours I have been to the gym for two hours and later ran for 45 minutes. I still cannot sleep. The curse persists, like slavery.
You probably need coffee, don't you?
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@Castin
And slavery is almost universally condemned in the modern world; in the ancient world it was so normative that God himself condoned it.The condemnation does not mean much when there are millions of slaves in the world, some of whom are enslaved in Western countries, or making products those in Western countries use. Do you think you have never used a product not made by the hands of a slave? What about all the children forced to pick coffee beans? And the fruits you eat? What about the clothes you wear and technology you use?Where does it say God condones slavery? God has less to do with slavery than you and I do. He is not using products made by slaves. Take it up with Satan if you dislike slavery.Lev 25:44-46"As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you and from their families who are with you who have been born in your land; they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness."And I don't understand your argument. "Because slavery is still happening in parts of the world, it's okay that God condoned it"?
I think attempting to say whether God condoned or didn't condone salvery is a very simplistic question on a very complex idea.
It's well and good to say that God could have simply put into the Bible - "don't own slaves." He didn't, therefore, he condones slavery. I think that is a very weak argument.
The number one problem that people have with slavery is stealing people, kidnapping free people against their will and making them slaves. God ABSOLUTELY condemns kidnapping people - whether they be Jew or Alien. So I think it is right to say that God does not condone slavery in the way that slavery is conducted in our world today.
Yet that is still only one part of the complexity of this issue.
Another part of the complexity is that in the time that Leviticus was written, EVERY nation on the face of the earth supported slavery. And in every nation apart from Israel, this slavery could arise from kidnapping. So there was already a clear distinction between Israel and other nations.
Also, back in those days, and interestingly, even in the world in some places today, people would sell themselves to others for a time, known as an indenture. Even the Jews could do this for 7 years. This is a type of slavery. The idea is based on the notion that "we own ourselves". And an important part of those ownership rights of our body, was the right to sell it to someone else. Today - people don't own their own bodies. (not that the abortion movement cares) The State owns our bodies - and it has done so - since it legislated the idea that no property rights can exist in a human body. Removing the ownership of property in body, removed the ability to privately sell your body to someone else - but it also effectively proved the point that we are slaves to the State. It owns our body and it tells us what rights we have.
In those times - people from other cultures could sell their bodies to another person - even to a Jew. In a sense it was a form of welfare. Or perhaps a bank mortgage.
The Israelites, however could not go looking for people in other cultures to buy slaves. And the reason for that is because the predominant manner in which people became slaves was by kidnapping.
The other time when Israel needed to consider slavery was in times of war. What were they to do with the foreigners they captured? If they released them - then they would form part of a group to try and get rid of them. Or they would go back and join the families they came from and start fighting again. The Jews were disliked then probably in the same way they are now. didn't have welfare in those times, so people had to make money somehow to get food. So they had to do something with them. I suppose they could kill them. But they were captured in war - and unless God said to destroy them - then they couldn't.
Overall, I think the matter is far too a complex matter to come up with a simplistic answer.
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@AdaptableRatman
No.
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@Mall
Which doctrine do you adhere to
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@AdaptableRatman
As far as debate art is concerned and what is necessary to apply or know about me is I adhere to the doctrine or teaching of consistency and logic to debate and conversate with individuals on debate art .
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@Mall
Talk about false idols...
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@AdaptableRatman
We can talk about false idols and true ones.
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@Mall
Sure let us talk.
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@AdaptableRatman
Ok well what is your point or questions on the matter?
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@Mall
First present your side. Mine is Catholicism.
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@AdaptableRatman
Are you asking to present my stance on false idols ?
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@Mall
No, your doctrine.
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@AdaptableRatman
It's not even mine. I just utilize the reality around us that says water is wet, fire will burn.
Those facts are consistent with cause and effect , right. So we apply that, not I but we that are aware of the universe around us apply the laws, the rules, causality, logic, rationale, etc.
This is what I use to engage with on this site and that's all that's relevant.
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@Mall
Relevant to what?
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@AdaptableRatman
Relevant to debating on debate art .
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@Mall
Jesus I forgot I made this thread.
Many haven't realized this but slavery is a part of the gospel message.I'm not talking about Hebrew Israelite camps that teach they'll enslave so called white folks in heaven.But true Christians are actually slaves of God which I can get this will push away atheists to far away galaxies beyond measure.Hence being an atheist, you want your liberty as being your own god .
So because we are slaves to Christ, it is okay for one human being to own another? Does this mean you believe spiritual slavery and chattel slavery are morally equivalent?
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@TheGreatSunGod
Societies today approve of slavery too.
Nope, most slaves today are illegally enslaved.
Slaves in the ancient world were legally enslaved.
And in the not-so-ancient world, too. Pretty shameful that we only agreed that it's wrong a few hundred years ago...
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@Castin
Nope, most slaves today are illegally enslaved
Thats not even true. Minority are slaves of majority in democracies now. Children are slaves of parents and their government.
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@TheGreatSunGod
Nope, most slaves today are illegally enslavedThats not even true. Minority are slaves of majority in democracies now. Children are slaves of parents and their government.
Oh here we go
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@fauxlaw
Is there a distinction between "condone" and "acknowledge?"I believe the answer is Yes.Condone is tacit approval.Acknowledge is tacit recognition of existence, but not approval.The one is not the other, and "tacit" is the demonstraton of that fact. It is recognition that God had expectations of us when we have, to date, failed to observe properly. It is evident that we do not love God as we should, and do not love ourselves as we should.The balance of the OT, post-Genesis [which, from Eden, had a simplified insrtruction to have dominion of the Earth for purposes of righteousness [not greed] and understand the distinction of good and evil. The balance of the OT is based upon the Law of Moses which had more strict requirements because the Israelites proved to be less respectful of those initial requirements out of Eden, which should have sufficed. They were, on their own, sufficient to treat one another with respect to to treat God as our Father by following his laws. Out of Eden was a dogma very similar to the two commands offered by Christ when asked to identify "the greatest law." Christ, instead, gave two "greatest" laws which are eternally inseparable: Love God; love our fellow man. Adhering to these, alone, would satisfy, and make of us better people than the Law of Moses ever could, which is why Christ said he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. To fulfill law is to step up from what was law to a better law, much like Jimmy Madison proposed in the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States: to be "a more perfect union."God has been trying to tell us forever, since Eden, that we are free when we follow his advice, and enslave ourselves, nut by him, as we accuse, when we do not.
I think there's a definite distinction between condone and acknowledge, yeah. I'm arguing God condoned. "You may" is permission.
I definitely think the New Testament had a message of "we're all the same in Christ," and that's a beautiful message, but at no point does Jesus or Paul or anyone directly challenge the institution of slavery; it is treated as normal. "Slaves, obey your masters." They encourage slave owners to treat their slaves well, but never do they say that it is wrong to own a human being. So I would argue that slavery is still condoned even in the New Testament.
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@yachilviveyachali
The real question is: do you condone slavery?Do you drink coffee? Slavery persists on coffee farms.I don't need to drink coffee; I have enough energy. In the last 12 hours I have been to the gym for two hours and later ran for 45 minutes. I still cannot sleep. The curse persists, like slavery.You probably need coffee, don't you?
Whether slavery still exists or not, whether normal people are indirectly complicit in it or not, I am asking if God condones it.
Of course slavery still exists in the world. But God is supposed to be better than the world. Of course normal people are often indirectly complicit in slavery. But God is supposed to be better than people.
Did God condone slavery?
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@Castin
By syntax, over time, and let's not even include the possible distinctions of translation [by ignorance, or by malicious or intended accurate purpose] from Hebrew, the primary O.T. language, the word "slavery" has transitioned from even being descriptive of people charged and convicted of crimes for which a fine is sufficient penalty, and, at one time [such as O.T. era, and in that instance, I don't think slave holders could be classed as "owners," since eventual release is implied] when one could not afford the fine, were placed in indentured servitude, aka [by standards, then] slavery, but only for a designated period. We do not use the term "slavery" for that purpose, today, yet your argument does not include that shift of definition when discussing God's attitude toward the word, as construed, then.
Would you argue God changed his mind? I wouldn't, and multiple biblical, and other holy writ of other religions, sources maintain he is of the same mind forever.
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@Castin
I thought Lisa Simpson was supposed to be smart?
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@Castin
Did God condone slavery?
God hates slavery. This is why we have free will.
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@fauxlaw
By syntax, over time, and let's not even include the possible distinctions of translation [by ignorance, or by malicious or intended accurate purpose] from Hebrew, the primary O.T. language, the word "slavery" has transitioned from even being descriptive of people charged and convicted of crimes for which a fine is sufficient penalty, and, at one time [such as O.T. era, and in that instance, I don't think slave holders could be classed as "owners," since eventual release is implied] when one could not afford the fine, were placed in indentured servitude, aka [by standards, then] slavery, but only for a designated period. We do not use the term "slavery" for that purpose, today, yet your argument does not include that shift of definition when discussing God's attitude toward the word, as construed, then.Would you argue God changed his mind? I wouldn't, and multiple biblical, and other holy writ of other religions, sources maintain he is of the same mind forever.
Eventual release is promised for Israelites. Foreigners could be owned indefinitely, and passed down through the slave owner's family.
God wants Israelities to be treated more like hired servants, but foreigners may be treated as chattel. Ethnocentric regulations; natives get more rights than foreigners. Very common.
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@yachilviveyachali
Did God condone slavery?God hates slavery. This is why we have free will.
What passage are you basing this on, and if that's the case, why did he condone it elsewhere?