Challenge to RM over best direction for the site.

Author: Mikal

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#1
Mikal
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I posted this in his other thread, but I want to drop it here too so everyone’s aware and hopefully open to voting if he accepts.

Let’s have a real debate on the framework and future direction of the site. It’s a current relative conversation, especially with David stepping up soon to site owner. I’m a strong advocate for free speech and would love to touch gloves and box this out. You seem to lean more toward a censorship leaning, forceful moderation approach.

Basic Outline for starting concepts. 

  1. The timing makes this a healthy and valuable discussion for the community.
  2. It gives both of us space to share our views openly.
  3. WF mentioned in the other thread that he’s open to highlighting and boosting it, and he’ll abstain from voting.
  4. I’m open to letting David be the sole voter, or we can leave it to an open vote.
  5. If either of us lobbies or messages people for votes, we forfeit by default.
Let’s make it happen.

#2
Tidycraft
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In the dynamics of power and peace, it is sad that power usually wins.
#3
Lunatic
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Yay a good ol' fashion debate to settle disputes. What a healthy way to deal with an issue. 
#4
AdaptableRatman
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I will forgive you for insulting my manhood only after you apologise for it. That is simple.

You can do so or you can realise that there will be no debate.
#5
Lunatic
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Coward. 
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#6
Mikal
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@whiteflame
This one please 
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#7
Mikal
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This has been pinned. Anytime RM complains about the site. Please just reply with this link 
#8
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#9
AdaptableRatman
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How come you pinned a callout thread
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#10
Mikal
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Not a callout thread. A challenge. 
#11
ultramaximus2
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@AdaptableRatman
They're trying to use humiliation to shut you up.
#12
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@ultramaximus2
It is their way.
#13
Savant
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@ultramaximus2
They're trying to use humiliation to shut you up.
Offering someone a chance to debate is shutting them up?
#14
Sir.Lancelot
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@Mikal
Adaptable has unfortunately decided not to accept this challenge. 
Is it okay with you if I accept and debate this on his behalf? 
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#15
Mikal
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@Sir.Lancelot
If he refuses to take it, I’d probably still accept. Going to let it sit for a while. Half my enjoyment in this is because it’s him. He spends all his time preaching this so he should be invested in engaging. If this is still here and he still is being a coward then I’d probably still be willing to go. 
#16
ultramaximus2
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@Savant
Offering someone a chance to debate is shutting them up?
The moderators pinning it is what I was talking about, not the challenge itself. Read about humiliation:

Ingredient 1: The Status Claim
Ingredient 2: The Public Failure of the Status Claim
Ingredient 3: The Status of the Degrader to Degrade
Ingredient 4: Rejection of the Status to Claim a Status

Damaging Consequences of Humiliation
Suffering severe humiliation has been shown empirically to plunge individuals into major depressions, suicidal states, and severe anxiety states, including ones characteristic of posttraumatic stress disorder.

By pinning the debate challenge it is a communication from site admins (who are obviously in a position of superiority within the community) that there is an endorsement of Mikals challenge. This flows in to the "public" nature of it also.

AR is obviously having some issues. Frankly I have my own issues from time to time. What is being done here is not going to help his mental state. It is part of a humiliation that may risk further damage to it.

This is not the way.
#17
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@ultramaximus2
By pinning the debate challenge it is a communication from site admins (who are obviously in a position of superiority within the community) that there is an endorsement of Mikals challenge. 
But AR simply accepting the challenge would be the opposite of shutting up. Even if the mods are pressuring him into it, that's the opposite of silencing him.
#18
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@Savant
Hey Savant, how are you?
#19
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@Sir.Lancelot
Doing good
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#20
Mikal
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@ultramaximus2
Someone not being well (I admit, he’s obviously not and has mental stuff going on), is not an excuse for everyone to sit by and be constantly antagonized by him. If he wants sympathy, then he can stop acting like a jackass. I had a lot of sympathy when I read his post when he left, wished him well even. Just to find out he came back and is engaging in the same type of dumbfuckery he was before and always has. If you want respect and sympathy, be a likable or decent person. 

Challenging him to a debate about the topic he berates literally everyone about and continues to act like a bafoon about is not attacking him, it’s making him defend a position. Never going to feel bad about standing my ground when someone is actively engaging in being toxic and playing the victim. Even if he loves trying to gaslight people into feeling  like he’s being attacked or whatever he’s claiming, he’s not or ever will be. 

If he wants sympathy or to be liked. Be a decent person and stop being a jackass. It’s not a hard concept. Think he would be surprised how quickly people come around to accepting him, if he did that. 
#21
AdaptableRatman
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@ultramaximus2
I genuinely wonder how many victims of Mikal's crew elsewhere (such as within hisbdiscord) have actually self harmed etc. He and Lunatic go out of their way to try and truly make their victims hate themselves and feel truly inferior and worthless.

He truly is a malicious sadist. You are completely correct that the mods here are aiding and abetting it.

The wait airmax ran things on ddo, he even punished their victims who were brave enough to fight back. Whiteflame is becoming like that.
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#22
Mikal
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@ultramaximus2
You want a more apt comparison. He’s the dickhead who beats his gf then blames her when she tries to stand up for herself and fight back. 

So when he behaves like a normal functioning adult, I’ll treat him like one.  Until then the challenge is there for him to express his qualms in a measurable way. But notice he will never take it because he doesn’t even believe what he’s saying. He just wants to type it so he can read it to himself over and over instead of actually trying to justify it to people who have a different opinion. 
#23
AdaptableRatman
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You want a more apt comparison. He’s the dickhead who beats his gf then blames her when she tries to stand up for herself and fight back. 
Nope, that is more akin to what you are.

You also make sure she doesnt think she is a victim by repeating it 10 times over as you break her down.
#24
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@David
@Barney
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@whiteflame
I am now being accused of beating a woman. At what stage will you admit you pinned a callout thread and are enabling a serial abuser?
#25
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@David
@Barney
I got banned over accusing him of fraud.

He is accusing me of domestic abuse and gaslighting the victim on top.

So does he get banned?
#26
whiteflame
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@Mikal
@AdaptableRatman
I wouldn't call that an accusation when it is pretty clearly prefaced with the line: "You want a more apt comparison." It's a comparison, not an accusation. That being said, any comparison between RM and a someone who would beat their girlfriend is pushing it, so I'm going to say that anything like this is getting uncomfortably close to an accusation and must be avoided.
#27
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@whiteflame
It is not close to it, it is that and more.

Mikal is exactly what he says I am. He abuses me repeatedly and paints me as the bad guy. He is just constantly doing evil stuff and his demonic friends enable it, especially Lunatic.

They are embracing the devil.
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#28
Mikal
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@whiteflame
It was an appeal to extremes to make a point but understood. 
#29
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@Mikal
Suffice to say your position is that he's an asshole. Im not denying that. I dont really have a position on it. More about how its being handled.

If he is violating the CoC then why is not the recourse reports, bans and the like? Pinning his challenger's challenge operates as tacit approval to the challenger's position from the site staff which may very well lead users to vote against him. Of course, you are a very good debater and popular user and AR not so much. Too many voters would be liable to vote their preformed opinions or other biases shrouded in rationalizations which makes ARs loss inevitable no matter how well he argued. Its a setup so that if he refuses the rigged challenge he gets branded a coward.

But I doubt you really want to debate the subject. This isnt about debating the subject. Its about making him look like a loser or a coward in the eyes of the community so that he turns tail and runs. In other words, humiliate him.

Maybe it would work. Maybe you think its worth a shot. Yet humiliation can be dangerous thing, more so here because his already unstable state may make him more susceptible to it. (ie hes already so close to the edge, you risk pushing him off)

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#30
Mikal
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@ultramaximus2
I think you are assuming things. He’s not violating a coc. It’s not about humiliating him. It’s about allowing him to see he’s acting like an asshole. It’s not about having people vote or not vote. I mentioned, I’m happy with one person deciding it. But if he lives his entire life blaming other people for problems he starts and causes, and no one is willing to correct him(not just ignore him or attack him blindly which people tend to do), he’s going to continue to be an asshole and blame others for his mistakes. Just because someone has issues and is acting poorly, it’s not an excuse to allow them to hold you hostage by feigning being a victim. 

Whether people think so or not, I don’t dislike him. He has moments where he’s not a dickhead. But with his recent behavior, yes I’m challenging him to back up his claims and prove what he says, largely because it will hopefully teach him a lesson. 

Oddly I find myself somewhat invested in him because I don’t think he’s a shit person. I think he has issues and just conceding to his social terrorism is not helpful. When he was banned on DDO, 8 years back, I was the one begging max to unban him and I’ve defended him in the past. But no, I will never lie down and let him just act like a moron without pointing out he’s acting like a moron, because he needs to hear that. 

He wants to be accepted and be a part of the community, always has. We’ve invited him time and time again and he continues to do stuff like this even after periods of lucidity. So how do you help someone that can’t see they are torpedoing the one thing they actually want because of their behavior. You correct it. 

No one dislikes him or hates him. They want him to act normal. Always has been the point of this and why he despises me because I am not scared to butt heads with him and point it out when others just either ignore or attack him for his behavior.