Middle East "GODS"= best HOAX ever !

Author: WisdomofAges

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#121
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@keithprosser
Why SHOULD slavery be abolished?  If there is no absolute, objective, unchanging standard then why is one standard better than another?  
Tell me, how hard do you have to think before you conclude freedom is better than slavery, or that kindness better than cruelty? 
Obviously, if you take a look around the world at different times and cultures many didn't give it a second thought but exploited others. Slavery in some forms is still in existence today. 


My guess is you don't have to think about it at all.   You may require a moment or two to think up a logical-sounding reason why freedom trumps slavery, but making the judgement 'freedom is better than slavery' takes no time at all - it is built into you.
As a Christian it is something I do not have to think of as anything but wrong, but from an evolutionary perspective would you expect to see this compassion to those who are enslaving others since that compassion is missing with regard to the unborn and their worth?


If you - or I - had been born in ancient Rome or the antebellum deep south we'd probably think slavery was part of the natural order and not question it.   You say you oppose slavery becuse freedom is intrinsically or objectively better than slavery;  I say we oppose slavery becuase we are the products of a non-slaving culture.
 
There are many people in the USA that exploit others and enslave them so not everyone opposes slavery. Sex trafficking is a big, big business in the USA.

Are you aware that 3,287 people are sold or kidnapped and forced into slavery every day? Not many people are. That's 136 an hour and that's just the reported cases. Are you aware that most of these are children and most of them are sold repeatedly for sex?
... Are you aware that the global sex slavery market generates $32 billion in profits each year? I bet it will astonish you that the only crime to outpace it is illegal drugs. This is amazing as the average human is sold into slavery for less than $100...
Are you aware that 300,000 American children are at risk of child sexual exploitation and about 55% of the girls living on the streets are engaged in sexual slavery? They can start as a troubled youth or as a valedictorian -- the crime of trafficking is about opportunity, not about the child...

MORE FACTS:
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At least 12.3 million people are victims of forced labour worldwide. Of these 2.4 million are as a result of human trafficking. (A global alliance against forced labor, International Labour Organization, 2005)?
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600,000-800,000 men, women and children are trafficked across international borders each year. Approximately 80 per cent are women and girls. Up to 50% are minors. (US Department of State Trafficking in Persons Report 2005)?
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The majority of trafficked victims arguably come from the poorest countries and poorest strata of the national population. (A global alliance against forced labor, International Labour Organization, 2005)?
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There are even reports that some trafficking groups are switching their cargo from drugs to human beings, in a search of high profits at lower risk. (Un office on drugs and crime)
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In 1862, President Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation eradicating slavery, yet more than one million people are enslaved in the U.S. today.
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Every 10 minutes, a woman or child is trafficked into the United States for forced labor
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76% of transactions for sex with underage girls are conducted via the internet
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The U.S. government spends 300 times more money per year to fight drug trafficking than it does to fight human trafficking?

#122
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@keithprosser
I don't have Wilberforce's autobiography but it's not in dispute that he was a great philanthropist and humanitarian.   Nor do I deny that he found justifications for his humanitarianism in Scripture.  The question is whether scripture changed his personal morality or if his innate humanitarianism affected his interpretation of Christianity. 
Yes, it did!

"William Wilberforce (1759-1833) is best known as the extraordinary Member of Parliament whose tenacious efforts played a prominent role in bringing an end to the British slave trade. Wilberforce testified that his slavery abolition endeavors and his many other philanthropic works never would have come about without what he always called his “Great Change” – his Christian conversion."

#123
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Slavery - of various sorts - certainly exists in our society but slavery is not normalised as it was in ancient rome or the old deep south.   It's a bit like murder - it goes on, but we don't live a society where murder is a commonplace element of our everyday experience.

These days we tend to be more considerate towards animals than was the case 100 or 200 years ago, but we still eat them.  Maybe in another 100 years eating animals will be viewdas immoral as eating people!   How can we know that what we thinkis moral today willalways be thought of as moral?


#124
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What a good christian country.
#125
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Your god was quite keen on slavery and you have yet to prove that your god restores anybody he kills.
#126
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If two people live the exact same life with one being a Christian and one not then both should go to heaven. Since neither is wicked. But they don't. Fortunately hell is only for Christians and many will be surprised.

#127
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@keithprosser

Slavery - of various sorts - certainly exists in our society but slavery is not  normalised as it was in ancient rome or the old deep south.   It's a bit like murder - it goes on, but we don't live a society where murder is a commonplace element of our everyday experience.
Still practiced in large numbers worldwide every day to the extent of around 12.5 million identified cases per year according to one source. Just because it is not normalized or legalized doesn't make it any more right to do.


These days we tend to be more considerate towards animals than was the case 100 or 200 years ago, but we still eat them.  Maybe in another 100 years eating animals will be viewd as immoral as eating people!   How can we know that what we think is moral today will always be thought of as moral?
Exactly my point. In a relative, shift society where there is no absolute, objective, UNCHANGING reference point anything is possible and sometimes we find ourselves circling back to a former position. Thus the law of identity becomes obsolete. A does not equal A but can equal whatever we want to make it. 

#128
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@Polytheist-Witch

If two people live the exact same life with one being a Christian and one not then both should go to heaven. Since neither is wicked. But they don't.
Have you ever broken any of the Ten Commandments? Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen? Have you ever coveted something that was not yours? Have you ever committed adultery in your mind? Have you ever been angry enough with someone to want to harm them? Have you ever placed some idol in the place of God? Have you ever dishonored your parents in any way? 

If you are guilty then what makes you think you are innocent of wrongful actions against God on your own merit or actions?

Fortunately hell is only for Christians and many will be surprised.
Not according to the Bible, and since you are speaking of Christians what do you base your thinking on?
#129
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The Ten Commandments are nothing to Christians. Jesus only had two. Your go doesn't own my soul. Thanks though. He only has say over Jews and Christians. Maybe Muslims. 
#130
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@Polytheist-Witch
The Ten Commandments are nothing to Christians. Jesus only had two. Your go doesn't own my soul. Thanks though. He only has say over Jews and Christians. Maybe Muslims
The ten commandments come from those 2 commandments that Jesus said were the greatest.

The God we believe in is The God of everyone, not just those who believe. Your soul was given to you by God, and as free will is a gift from God, you certainly can choose whether or not you wish to acknowledge our creator as God or not.




#131
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You can't pick and choose when the Old Testament is relevant. Jesus had two commandments, Heaven and Hell are your god's domine not mine. Adam and Eve and not my ancestors. Your god is not mine. 
#132
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@Polytheist-Witch
I don't pick and choose when the old testament is relevant.

I don't think you really understand my faith, and that can hardly be your fault even as your exposure to Christianity has been through heterodox not orthodox Christianity.


And really, I dispute your claim that Jesus had two commandments.


But make no mistake, whether you acknowledge it or not The God of Truth is the God of us all. If you reject The God of your Salvation, well... 



#133
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Just because it [slavery] is not normalized or legalized doesn't make it any more right to do.
I don't think slavery is right either.  It really feels that slavery must be 'objectively wrong'.  But I can imagine that if I was an ancient Roman my feelings about slavery might be just as strong in the other direction.  That is I would consider 'slavery is fine' to be an objective truth. 

My guess is that what we take to be objective moral truths match very closely with what we would like to be moral truths!  Is that co-incidence?


#134
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@keithprosser
Just because it [slavery] is not normalized or legalized doesn't make it any more right to do.
I don't think slavery is right either.  It really feels that slavery must be 'objectively wrong'.  But I can imagine that if I was an ancient Roman my feelings about slavery might be just as strong in the other direction.  That is I would consider 'slavery is fine' to be an objective truth. 
It is easy to be so immersed in a culture that you do not see its wrongs. As a child, born in Zambia (Northern Rhodesia) my family would take vacations in apartheid 
South
Africa. Once removed from colonial influence (having immigrated to Canada) I went back to work there for a year in 1979-1980 and saw how wrong this segregation was which ended a decade later. So, if you are the privileged class it is hard to see the wrongs if you are emerged in justified thinking from birth and educated to justify your beliefs.  


My guess is that what we take to be objective moral truths match very closely with what we would like to be moral truths!  Is that co-incidence?
I think we are all hardwired to know what is objectively wrong but we deny that it is wrong to justify our lifestyles and preferences. That makes it seem right for us to think in a way that is harmful to ourselves or others in the big picture and we can ignore this truth and practice our evils. The NT (Romans 1) calls it suppressing the truth of God for a lie).


#135
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@Mopac
Nope. Your god is not my god or the god of anyone outside your faith. 
#136
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The Ten Commandments are nothing to Christians. Jesus only had two.
No, Jesus SUMMED them up in two. If you love God, love your neighbor, and hate evil you will not seek them harm or disrespect them.

Your go doesn't own my soul.
Not following what you mean. 


Thanks though. He only has say over Jews and Christians. Maybe Muslims.  
The NT says that one day every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will confess He is Lord. 

#137
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The book can say what it wants. Adam and Eve are not my ancestors, your god did not create me, your heaven and hell have nothing to do with me. Thanks. 
#138
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@Polytheist-Witch
Yet acknowledging The Ultimate Reality as God is not necessary for it to have sovereignty over all things.

A person born with female genitalia may say they are a male, but their delusion does not overthrow reality.



#139
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Your ultimate reality is your and yours alone. 
#140
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If that were the case, it would not be The Ultimate Reality.
#141
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@Polytheist-Witch

The book can say what it wants. Adam and Eve are not my ancestors, your god did not create me, your heaven and hell have nothing to do with me.
Your choice but what is it based upon?

....Once upon a time, many many billions of years ago, our universe exploded into existence from a singularity for no reason, no intention, no purpose...


Thanks. 
No problem!
#142
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Your choice but what is it based upon?

....Once upon a time, many many billions of years ago, our universe exploded into existence from a singularity for no reason, no intention, no purpose...

That other gods exist. 
Just because your god claims to have created the universe doesn't make it so. 
#143
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Your choice but what is it based upon?

....Once upon a time, many many billions of years ago, our universe exploded into existence from a singularity for no reason, no intention, no purpose...

That other gods exist. 
Just because your god claims to have created the universe doesn't make it so. 

A worldview is not worth its weight if it is illogical or unreasonable. That is not the case with Christianity. 
#144
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For a theist to tell a theist they have an illogical view on gods is the dumbest shit I have every read. 
#145
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For a theist to tell a theist they have an illogical view on gods is the dumbest shit I have every read. 
Logically, only one God can be true for they all contradict each other. I do not see other views of "gods" as logically consistent whereas I see the biblical view of God as logically consistent. 
#146
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Logically, only one God can be true for they all contradict each other. I do not see other views of "gods" as logically consistent whereas I see the biblical view of God as logically consistent. 

Bull shit. Why would you? You might have to accept your god might be lying to see other gods as real. Christianity is not special in the religions department. You need it to seem that way to feel good about yourself. 
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Logically, only one God can be true for they all contradict each other. I do not see other views of "gods" as logically consistent whereas I see the biblical view of God as logically consistent. 

Bull shit. Why would you?
Why would I...what? 


You might have to accept your god might be lying to see other gods as real.
Why would I do that?


Christianity is not special in the religions department.
Yes, it is. You'll notice that all religions rely on what its adherents do (a right standing before God based on what they do). Christianity relies on what Another has done on our behalf. 

You need it to seem that way to feel good about yourself. 
It is not a matter of a feel-good religion but what is true. 

#148
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Once upon a time, many many billions of years ago, our universe exploded into existence from a singularity for no reason, no intention, no purpose...

It is not a matter of a feel-good religion but what is true

#149
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Logically, only one God can be true for they all contradict each other. I do not see other views of "gods" as logically consistent whereas I see the biblical view of God as logically consistent. 

This raises the yet to see you answer directly. Just so we don't get off track on minutia, let's say that humanity has only been around for 10,000 years. In those 10,000 years, there have been countless cultures and groups, each with many superstitious beliefs and, in almost every case, a belief in unseen gods using their influence to do things like cause cataclysmic earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, droughts, mental illnesses, inexplicable diseases, etc. because we didn't understand the natural causes of these events until the last 500 years (so 95% of human history, VERY generously again, we basically knew nothing about how anything worked). For sake of round numbers, let's say 1000 cultures developed over 10000 years around the world with completely unique views of these forces. Greek gods weren't Egyptian gods, weren't Hindu gods, weren't Norse gods, weren't Navajo gods, weren't Aztec gods. So far good? You're saying these gods can't ALL be the correct ones. I agree!

Except...you don't explain how you separated, through logic, not through your birth into a Christian family, or your indoctrination into a Christian culture, that YOUR god is the one that's right. You've already said you're a presuppositionalist: by this alone, you make an error that screws up your logic. You start with the assumption that among all of these hundreds of gods, ONE MUST BE RIGHT. I'm never sure why people make this mistake, except that it serves their desired outcome. The correct starting position has to include the possibility that ALL OF THEM MIGHT BE WRONG. You have to start from zero gods and then figure out why there would be A god in the first place. Almost every time I've seen this argued, the pro-god person basically goes to argue from ignorance or incredulity. 

The NEXT question is "How did you figure out this god was the one?" But you can't really answer that one at all (much less with logic) until you've answered the first one. I know you rely on the biblical texts pretty heavily. You're trying to answer how did you decide this book is right, the Hindu books are wrong is not the FIRST question in your logical argument. The first question you have to answer is why should we think ANY of those books, written when people apparently thought hitting sheep with reeds is how you ended up with spotted baby sheep, are true.
#150
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@Polytheist-Witch
For a theist to tell a theist they have an illogical view on gods is the dumbest shit I have every read. 

I can't believe it, but this is twice this week I think I agree with you!