A classic: From creator god ==&gt; Specific God

Debates: 7

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03.01.2019 02:58AM

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@3RU7AL

Materialism is determined (how can it be anything but?) yet I am not a materialist. I don't believe in materialism.
Substance dualism does not invalidate causality.

But does it eliminate free will? Are we mechanical systems that are determined?

Even ghosts, spirits, souls, angels, and gods are either taking actions based on previous events (information/knowledge/experience) or are acting without cause (randomly/based on zero information/knowledge/experience).

Sure, which means that our wills are not free like Adams was. Yet we still have a volition. We still choose.

#332

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Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 03:00AM

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@3RU7AL

I do not presume that sola scriptura from other religions are true.
This is a thought experiment. Try to imagine approaching another ancient text as if it were 100% true.

Why?

I am quite capable of putting myself in the place of those who have another worldview thought system and examining its core assumptions. That is why I claim only Christianity makes ultimate sense of life's ultimate questions.

#333

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03.01.2019 03:02AM

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@PGA2.0

What are life's ultimate questions?

#334

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03.01.2019 03:05AM

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@PGA2.0

Now once again show me where all of this extraneous nonsense is found in your quoted prophesy Dan 9 24:27.

#335

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Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 03:16AM

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@disgusted

What are life's ultimate questions?

The kind most worldview attempt to make sense of like,
1. What am I, [ontology]

2. Why am I here, [philosophical]

3. Where do I come from, [metaphysics]

4. How do I know, [epistemology]

5. What difference does it make [axiology]

6. What happens to me when I die [destiny].

#336

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 03:24AM

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@disgusted

Now once again show me where all of this extraneous nonsense is found in your quoted prophesy Dan 9 24:27.

Simple, the seventy sevens were what was given Israel because God knew they would be unfaithful and so the penalty was to be multiplied from seventy years to seventy times seven, then judgment and everlasting righteousness. Their sins were compounded

Daniel 9:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 “Seventy [1]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [2]finish the transgression, to [3]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [4]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Footnotes:

Daniel 9:24 Or units of seven, and so throughout the ch
Daniel 9:24 Or restrain
Daniel 9:24 Another reading seal up sins
Daniel 9:24 Lit prophet

#337

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Posts: 3,052

03.01.2019 04:14AM

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@PGA2.0

1. What am I, [ontology]
2. Why am I here, [philosophical]
3. Where do I come from, [metaphysics]
4. How do I know, [epistemology]
5. What difference does it make [axiology]
6. What happens to me when I die [destiny].

I reckon I know the answers to most of those! The hard question is 'What do I do?'.

#338

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Posts: 4,959

03.01.2019 11:01AM

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@PGA2.0

If you change the prophesy to say what you want it to say then your pretend prophesy is fulfilled in 70AD. But this:

24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, [j]to finish [k]transgression, and [l]to make an end of sins, and to [m]make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and [n]prophecy, and to anoint [o]the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [p]the anointed one, the prince, shall be [q]seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and [r]shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the [s]oblation to cease; and [t]upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Has no fulfillment anywhere in your book. Your lies may convince those who lack an ability to think. I was going to add "independantly" but it would be redundant.

#339

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 02:48PM

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@keithprosser

I reckon I know the answers to most of those! The hard question is 'What do I do?'.

Grace and YOLO!!!!!!!

#340

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 02:58PM

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@PGA2.0

But does it eliminate free will? Are we mechanical systems that are determined?

Clearly we are biological and not mechanical. Do you believe that biological systems are subject to cause and effect?

Sure, which means that our wills are not free like Adams was. Yet we still have a volition. We still choose.

What makes you think Adam had freewill?

What makes you think that we have "volition"?

Of course we "choose" things, but the point is that our "choices" are (EITHER) caused (OR) uncaused (this is tautological).

(IFF) our choices are caused (THEN) they are not free (because they are inevitable).

(IFF) our choices are uncaused (THEN) they are not willed (because they are random).

#341

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 03:06PM

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@PGA2.0

Hostile in the sense that I don't like deception of falsehood.
It is not the person who holds the belief I object to but the falsity of the belief itself.

Don't you think the "atheist" might think exactly the same thing about christianity?

It seems a bit unfair to say the "atheist" "hates god" when they really just hate falsehood and deception.

Also, don't conflicting doctrines disprove each other? I mean, if the catholics are right, then the methodists and lutherans must be dead wrong, right?

#342

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Posts: 3,052

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eakKfY5aHmY

03.01.2019 03:19PM

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@PGA2.0

Are we mechanical systems that are determined?

The murmuration of starlings is deterministic.

#343

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 04:40PM

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@keithprosser

1. What am I, [ontology]
2. Why am I here, [philosophical]
3. Where do I come from, [metaphysics]
4. How do I know, [epistemology]
5. What difference does it make [axiology]
6. What happens to me when I die [destiny].
I reckon I know the answers to most of those! The hard question is 'What do I do?'.

I'm interested in what that may be.

#344

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,052

03.01.2019 05:05PM

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@PGA2.0

You'll have to buy my book, if ever I write one!

When I can put something together i'll let you know. But that you won't accept my answers is a given, isn't it?

#345

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 05:24PM

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@PGA2.0

The way I see it:

Immigration rights - I do not oppose immigration but it should be legal immigration.

Here's the problem. Legal avenues are broken. Waiting lists are 20+ years. Citizenship tests are unrealistic (most citizens can't pass).

And everyone forgets that during WW2 the Unites States was begging Mexicans to cross the border to work in factories, and then, just a few years after the war, mass deportations began.

Criminals bring problems and immorality to a country.

Conflating immigrants with criminals is provably false. Even the conservative CATO institute concluded that undocumented immigrants are slightly less likely than native born citizens to engage in criminal behavior. This type of rhetoric is pure fear-mongering.

Jerusalem and many cities in ancient Israel had walls for a purpose, to protect those within the walls from evil for the times, just like ours, had lots of evil.

Ancient cities had walls to protect them from ARMIES not immigrants.

Minority rights - the minority should have the same rights as the majority, not special rights just because they are in the minority unless they have a disability and need additional care, IMO.

Here's the problem. Minorities were systematically discriminated against in the past. Banks red-lined neighborhoods. Schools were criminally underfunded. The effects of this incontrovertible discrimination continue to affect the exact same neighborhoods and schools. Do you think this is a mere coincidence? Do you think something should be done to give these people at least some token of hope? The proposals I've heard recently never mention "race". They are basic, common sense proposals like, (IFF) all Americans have a right to an equal education (THEN) all schools should be similarly funded and equipped. If one school has a computer lab and a debate team and a band and multiple sports teams and another school can't even afford textbooks and clean running water, that would seem to qualify as a serious problem, if not an all out national emergency.

Homosexual rights - the Bible teaches some things are wrong

Here's the problem. The "bible" teaches a lot of things. In the Levitical law, where the prohibition against male homosexuality is mentioned, it also says you can't eat cheeseburgers or get a divorce. So if you won't allow homosexuals in your church, then BY THE EXACT SAME MEASURE you should also not allow anyone who eats cheeseburgers or divorcees. In-fact you should kick out anyone who doesn't eat kosher and observe the Sabbath as well. You can't cherry pick. There's nothing in the "bible" that suggests that male homosexuality is any worse than any of the other thousands of enumerated violations.

because God created humanity with a union of a male with a female in mind as a reflection of a greater truth.

If god made everything, and knows everything, is male homosexuality some sort of "mistake" that god couldn't have "fixed" for some reason?

The only possible conclusion is that god made male homosexuals on purpose, probably as a hedge against overpopulation.

This relationship also produces offspring and God command humanity to go out and multiply.

This is a red-herring. If you really believe this, then you should kick everyone out of the church who is infertile or refuses to have children. Catholics and many other christian denominations either expressly prohibit contraception or prohibit sex education. Would you propose we kick out everyone from the church who uses contraception? This policy would at least be logically consistent with your proposed argument.

A homosexual relationship does not allow such a natural family unit. I believe the best relationship for a family is one that supplies both a male and female influence and example.

Certainly, in an ideal world, children should be raised with both of their birth parents. But this does not mean that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to adopt orphans. It also doesn't mean that single-parent families should be kicked out of the church.

Having said all that, I still recognize that it is not mine to judge whether a person is to be saved or not.

Ok, so why would you even comment on it?

#346

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 05:28PM

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@PGA2.0

My responsibility is to know what is right and wrong.

For yourself. Which would appear to be "the ten commandments", which doesn't mention immigrants or minorities or male homosexuals or terrorists.

If I meet a homosexual person I still recognize they are made in the image and likeness of God [although marred by the Fall]

"Marred by the Fall" like literally everyone on planet earth.

and deserve dignity and respect from me just like God has shown to me, but I do not see the sexual act between gay people as right per the biblical teaching.

Do you have an opinion on each and every sexual act? Do you believe that married (hetero) couples who engage in certain types of (not strictly reproductive) sexual acts should also be banned from the church?

Repentant terrorists - I am all for second chances, just like I have been given one. That does not mean that a society should leave wrongful acts unpunished.

Nobody is suggesting they should go "scott-free". The question is whether or not there is any path-to-redemption (have their day in court). The frightening thing is that it appears that we are now "stripping people of their birth-right citizenship" without due process, and with no path-to-redemption. I was always told that we were born with inalienable rights. If you can legally strip a person of all legal recourse and legal rights without even charging them with a crime, then I believe we have a very serious problem on our hands.

Do you have any "non-traditional" or "non-mainstream" beliefs? Well, just wait until someone who self-identifies as an "atheist" (for example) or someone from your group or "methodist" or "buddhist" or "gun owner" or "SUV owner" commits a heinous crime somewhere that makes it into the 6 o'clock news everywhere and then, BAM, "atheists" (or your group) will be capriciously stripped of their citizenship at will and nobody will even bat-an-eyelash.

Where would the justice be in that?

Indeed.

But it is not my job to dispense justice but to show the love of Christ to every person in treating them with love and respect, but also to act justly.

That sounds reasonable.

Now, I shamefully fall short of these qualities often. That is why I am so thankful for what Jesus has done for me - unmerited grace, something I do not deserve yet God mercifully gave!

I know a lot of christians are very kind-hearted and friendly people. I just can't figure out why so many of them aren't.

#347

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/what-free-will/

03.01.2019 06:12PM

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@3RU7AL

But does it eliminate free will? Are we mechanical systems that are determined?
Clearly we are biological and not mechanical. Do you believe that biological systems are subject to cause and effect?

If all we are is a biological machine that is at the mercy of random cause and effect influences then we are deterministic and there is no freedom of the will. So, unless we are created we are just biological machines that are determined.

Sure, which means that our wills are not free like Adams was. Yet we still have a volition. We still choose.
What makes you think Adam had freewill?

Because Adam was a tabula rasa, a blank slate, he had the ability to sin or to not sin. God gave Him a command in which he was free to eat of any tree in the Garden but one. He was told what would happen once the fruit was eaten yet he could still choose. No one else influenced him to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge until the devil suggested otherwise.

We, as fallen humanity do not have the ability to not sin as he did. That is the difference. He was free to choose either path, we are not. We inherited a corrupt nature. We still make choices and still have the ability to choose but our choices are influenced by our nature and our desires. Thus, the biblical solution is a new nature that God gives us. R.C. Sproul sums it up:

In The Freedom of the Will, Jonathan Edwards defines biblical freedom. Man is free, he says, to choose according to his disposition. Human beings always choose according to their strongest desire, and so we make free choices. We do what we want to do. Some may object that people often choose the undesirable, such as handing a wallet over to a mugger. But even if I do this, my strongest inclination has prompted my choice. All things being equal, I do not desire to give my wallet away. But if my choice is my wallet or my life, and I hand over my wallet, I prove that I want to live more than I want money.

Apart from Christ, we are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1) and wholly disposed to hate God. We only want darkness, and so we freely choose to reject Him. We freely choose to love and to serve Jesus only if the Spirit changes our hearts (John 3:1–8).

Otherwise we remain lost.

So, our freedom to choose is governed by our nature and our desires. Our freedom to choose no longer has the ability to not sin. Thus, we are in bondage to sin until Jesus transactionally sets us free from that nature and penalty. The life He lived on earth He lived to God on behalf of those who would believe, so we are counted free in Him (He has no sin) and when we leave this earthly body I believe we will fully realize that freedom in Jesus Christ.

What makes you think that we have "volition"?

You have the ability to do something or not to do it and you admit as much with the underlined below.

Of course we "choose" things, but the point is that our "choices" are (EITHER) caused (OR) uncaused (this is tautological).

If they are caused and we have no choice then we are determined. We can't but do what is determined for us. Do you believe this is the case? If so, say goodbye to morality.

Do you have the ability to never correspond with me again? I think you do. It depends on whether you desire to do so or not so it depends on your choice. If I offended you then you could choose whether to respond or not. Many times I have chosen not to respond to a post.

(IFF) our choices are caused (THEN) they are not free (because they are inevitable).

In a sense, every decision you make is influenced by other factors since ideas do not form in a vacuum. In this sense, our wills are not free. Yet you choose between options. In this sense, you have the freedom to make a choice. The atheist himself chooses not to love God or to deny His existence. God does not place that thought in his/her mind. They do that themselves, even though their thoughts are influenced by other thoughts. With determinism, you have no choice at all. You do what you do because you can't do otherwise.

All the things that I see have a causal effect. Humans follow their human nature which is corrupted by the Fall, but they still choose. They can still choose one or the other option? Sometimes things go against what you desire. You do not want to die, but you love someone enough to protect them by doing so. It depends on your desires and influences. Do you choose to put your own interests first or theirs?

When an atheist hears the Christian message of grace they are not free but bound by their sinful nature. Thus, what they hear goes against that nature. It is unpleasant to them. That is why, generally speaking, humans resist the message. But faith comes from hearing the message and still not all believe its good news. Thus it takes an act of God, an act of His grace to hear the message because we tend to block it out and drown hearing His voice. We dig in and resist it. It requires unpleasant circumstances to jar us from our blindness, apathy and indifference to Him. It takes an examination of our worldview and questioning what makes sense and how we can justify what we believe. When we do that the Christian position comes shining through. Then the question becomes whether we are willing to put our complete trust in Him or whether we like our sin and misery too much to let go of it. But now we see the wrong and it is uncomfortable to us.

(IFF) our choices are uncaused (THEN) they are not willed (because they are random).

How can a choice be uncaused? You need input to make a decision. Are you saying nothing influences our thoughts but pure matter - Determinism (something just happens because your biological and chemical reactions randomly trigger it to happen)?

If there is no such thing as a choice but everything happens randomly then morality is an illusion. Are you willing to live with this dichotomy?

#348

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 06:24PM

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@3RU7AL

Hostile in the sense that I don't like deception of falsehood.
It is not the person who holds the belief I object to but the falsity of the belief itself.
Don't you think the "atheist" might think exactly the same thing about christianity?

I'm sure he does, but I believe it goes further based on biblical teaching. He actually hates and resents God. This is evident way too often on these forums with the vitriol present. There are open animosity and hostility to God and Christians. It is evident in our cultures.

It seems a bit unfair to say the "atheist" "hates god" when they really just hate falsehood and deception.

I believe they often take it further. I could use examples from people on this thread to demonstrate this or from the cultures we live in.

Also, don't conflicting doctrines disprove each other? I mean, if the catholics are right, then the methodists and lutherans must be dead wrong, right?

Sure, but what is our standard, our highest authority? Is it the Catholic or the Protestant or is it the Bible - God's word? If it is God's word then there must be a correct way of interpreting it for that is what we are told by Scripture.

#349

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 06:30PM

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@keithprosser

Are we mechanical systems that are determined?
The murmuration of starlings is deterministic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eakKfY5aHmY

Good point! They're all leftist socialists!

So this is the natural leanings of humans as subjects of nature!

Socialism, coming to a theatre near you!

#350

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 06:30PM

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@PGA2.0

Also, don't conflicting doctrines disprove each other? I mean, if the catholics are right, then the methodists and lutherans must be dead wrong, right?
Sure, but what is our standard, our highest authority? Is it the Catholic or the Protestant or is it the Bible - God's word? If it is God's word then there must be a correct way of interpreting it for that is what we are told by Scripture.

But don't you think it's funny how each and every one believes their own interpretation is the one and only correct one?

I mean, if god was so perfect and logical, wouldn't all true believers interpret things exactly the same way?

Doesn't the simple fact that there is such wide-spread disagreement among true believers indicate that the document might not be "perfectly clear"?

#351

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 06:33PM

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@keithprosser

You'll have to buy my book, if ever I write one!

When I can put something together i'll let you know. But that you won't accept my answers is a given, isn't it?book, if ever I write one!

When I can put something together i'll let you know. But that you won't accept my answers is a given, isn't it?

Likely, but I don't know until I hear your opinion. There are two competing worldviews that are usually in conflict operating here.

#352

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,052

03.01.2019 06:38PM

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@PGA2.0

Socialism, coming to a theatre near you!

One of the most beautiful sights in nature! The point being it is produced by each bird obeying the same simple, fixed rule. The complexity that can arise from the simple is too rarely appreciated.

#353

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Posts: 3,052

03.01.2019 06:41PM

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@PGA2.0

The questions give me a framework... I'm giving it serious consideration. It's not a 5 minute job though!

#354

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/unauthorized-immigrants-criminal-convictions-who-might-be-priority-removal

03.01.2019 08:06PM

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@3RU7AL

The way I see it:

Immigration rights - I do not oppose immigration but it should be legal immigration.
Here's the problem. Legal avenues are broken. Waiting lists are 20+ years. Citizenship tests are unrealistic (most citizens can't pass).

Just because the system is broken doesn't make illegal immigration right. If a person does something wrong they are breaking the law - hence ILLEGAL immigration. You are on the wrong side of the issue if you support something that is illegal.

The problem is that your government does not want to fix the problem. They are making a political game out of it, hence enough fentanyl was seized last month to kill over half your population.

***

“What we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers, we have a lot of these people, probably two million, it could be even three million, we are getting them out of our country or we are going to incarcerate. But we’re getting them out of our country, they’re here illegally.”

The most recent publicly available information provided by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) on the criminal alien population (the government’s official terminology) dates back to a 2012 report to Congress. Based on it, we estimated in a 2015 report that 820,000 of the approximately 11 million people living in the country illegally had criminal convictions. Of these, we estimated 300,000 had a felony conviction and 390,000 were serious misdemeanants (meaning they had been convicted of a misdemeanor in which they were sentenced to actual custody of 90 days or more).

***

The 23 percent criminal traffic offenders figure is only part of the overall picture. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, another 23 percent, more than 43,000 illegal aliens, were convicted of drug offenses. The violent crime category of assault, robbery, sexual assault, and family offenses comes to 12 percent. The non-violent crime grouping of larceny, fraud, and burglary totaled seven percent, and on the list goes — equaling 100 percent of illegal aliens who have been through the criminal justice system and inflicted thousands to millions in cost per alien on the system, for issues having nothing to do with their illegal entry into the country...

In an interview with this author, Pinal County, Arizona Sheriff Paul Babeu stated, “Pinal County has followed the trend of the majority of counties across the United States, so we have seen most of our major crime statistics drop during the past few years. The one area we have not seen drop — which has seen dramatic increases in fact — is crimes tied to illegal immigration. Our high-speed vehicle pursuits have rapidly increased each year from 142 in 2007 to 340 such incidents in 2010. Marijuana seizures have spiked from a low in 2008 of about 19,600 pounds to over 45,500 pounds in 2010. My deputies are telling me more and more that they are apprehending guns and high tech communication equipment from cartel operatives.”

An FBI crime study also shows heavy illegal alien involvement in criminal activity revealed these statistics:

75 percent of those on the most wanted criminals list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
One quarter of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals, as are more than 40 percent of all inmates in Arizona and 48 percent in New Mexico jails.
Over 53 percent of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
63 percent of cited drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that number, 97 percent are illegal aliens. 66 percent of cited drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66 percent, 98 percent are illegal aliens.[15]

The numbers don’t show attitude or intent. “United States is stupid … I come back every time,” asserted Mexican national Rolando Mota-Campos to a Virginia-based immigration agent after his 11th arrest — for crimes ranging from abduction, assault, four DUIs, vehicular assault, attempted robbery, and domestic violence. Mota-Campos has been deported three times and has vowed to return again.

https://www.constitutionparty.com/illegal-alien-crime-and-violence-by-the-numbers-were-all-victims/

#355

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/02/15/most-immigrants-arrested-by-ice-have-prior-criminal-convictions-a-big-change-from-2009/

03.01.2019 08:07PM

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@3RU7AL

***

Immigrants with past criminal convictions accounted for 74% of all arrests made by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents in fiscal 2017, according to data from the agency. The remainder were classified as “non-criminal” arrestees, including 16% with pending criminal charges and 11% with no known criminal convictions or charges.

***

- ICE conducted a total of 368,644 removals.
- ICE conducted 133,551 removals of individuals apprehended in the interior of the U.S.
--- 82 percent of all interior removals had been previously convicted of a crime.- ICE conducted 235,093 removals of individuals apprehended along our borders while attempting to unlawfully enter the U.S.
- 59 percent of all ICE removals, a total of 216,810, had been previously convicted of a crime.
--- ICE apprehended and removed 110,115 criminals removed from the interior of the U.S.
--- ICE removed 106,695 criminals apprehended at the border while attempting to unlawfully enter the U.S.- 98 percent of all ICE FY 2013 removals, a total of 360,313, met one or more of ICE's stated civil immigration enforcement priorities.
- Of the 151,834 removals of individuals without a criminal conviction, 84 percent, or 128,398, were apprehended at the border while attempting to unlawfully enter the U.S. and 95 percent fell within one of ICE's stated immigration enforcement priorities.

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tom-blumer/2014/02/04/mind-boggling-stats-illegal-immigrants-criminal-records-press-rarely

And everyone forgets that during WW2 the Unites States was begging Mexicans to cross the border to work in factories, and then, just a few years after the war, mass deportations began.

Legally?

Criminals bring problems and immorality to a country.
Conflating immigrants with criminals is provably false. Even the conservative CATO institute concluded that undocumented immigrants are slightly less likely than native born citizens to engage in criminal behavior. This type of rhetoric is pure fear-mongering.

I said, criminals. Illegal immigration is a crime in itself but the number of immigrates who are criminals compound the problem. Illegal immigration costs your country billions of dollars every year.

***

A continually growing population of illegal aliens, along with the federal government’s ineffective efforts to secure our borders, present significant national security and public safety threats to the United States. They also have a severely negative impact on the nation’s taxpayers at the local, state, and national levels. Illegal immigration costs Americans billions of dollars each year. Illegal aliens are net consumers of taxpayer-funded services and the limited taxes paid by some segments of the illegal alien population are, in no way, significant enough to offset the growing financial burdens imposed on U.S. taxpayers by massive numbers of uninvited guests. This study examines the fiscal impact of illegal aliens as reflected in both federal and state budgets.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

***

"Illegal immigration costs our country more than $113 billion a year. And this is what we get," Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, said. "For the

money

we are going to spend on illegal immigration over the next 10 years, we could provide 1 million at-risk students with a school voucher, which so many people are wanting."

FAIR’s report says $113 billion represents the total cost at the federal, state and local levels for undocumented immigrants. The vast majority -- $84 billion -- is paid by state and local governments.

The $113 billion is not a net cost. Taking into consideration federal, state and local tax payments made by the undocumented population, the net cost would be about $99 billion, according to the FAIR report.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/

Topic's author

#356

ludofl3x

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,013

ludofl3x

03.01.2019 08:27PM

Couldn't we jut pray away the illegal immigration problem, like we're told to do with guns? Sorry, I'm now contributing to my OWN topic going off topic :). As you were!

#357

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 08:47PM

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@PGA2.0

Your quoted undocumented immigrant felonies number is 300,000 out of an estimated 11,000,000 total undocumented immigrants.

What percentage of 11,000,000 is 300,000?

2.73% [LINK] - So, realistically, you're freaking out because of 2.73%? What about the other 97.27% that are non-murder-rapist-drug-dealers?

About 8.6% of the adult population (of the United States) has a felony conviction. [LINK]

By this measure it is 3.15018315018315% more fair to say that ALL UNITED STATES CITIZENS ARE VIOLENT CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#358

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,791

03.01.2019 08:50PM

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@PGA2.0

And everyone forgets that during WW2 the Unites States was begging Mexicans to cross the border to work in factories, and then, just a few years after the war, mass deportations began.
Legally?

My point is that "legally" is 100% arbitrary. It's not a "moral issue" like "murder" for example.

There is nothing in either Leviticus or the Ten Commandments that says, "don't move to another country if your situation becomes desperate".

And don't you think that something like helping the Unites States win WW2 should perhaps be acknowledged and rewarded??????

#359

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

03.01.2019 09:25PM

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@3RU7AL

Jerusalem and many cities in ancient Israel had walls for a purpose, to protect those within the walls from evil for the times, just like ours, had lots of evil.
Ancient cities had walls to protect them from ARMIES not immigrants.

While I grant that was the main purpose, security, I would argue that a large migration of people could have been seen as a threat. Walls are built to protect citizens. Do you leave your doors unlocked and open at night? Do you invite or let whoever wants to come into your house in?

Minority rights - the minority should have the same rights as the majority, not special rights just because they are in the minority unless they have a disability and need additional care, IMO.
Here's the problem. Minorities were systematically discriminated against in the past. Banks red-lined neighborhoods. Schools were criminally underfunded. The effects of this incontrovertible discrimination continue to affect the exact same neighborhoods and schools. Do you think this is a mere coincidence? Do you think something should be done to give these people at least some token of hope? The proposals I've heard recently never mention "race". They are basic, common sense proposals like, (IFF) all Americans have a right to an equal education (THEN) all schools should be similarly funded and equipped. If one school has a computer lab and a debate team and a band and multiple sports teams and another school can't even afford textbooks and clean running water, that would seem to qualify as a serious problem, if not an all out national emergency.

It is true, minorities have been discriminated against and I agree that so often this is wrong. I believe that under God we are all equal yet we don't all live the same lifestyle. If you have no incentive why should I feed you? With socialism, the government forces me to do this. It forces me to work for you. And in some circumstances, why should a law be made for you as a minority that someone in the majority is not privileged to (i.e., special privilege)?

Take socialism. The problem is who pays for health-care for all or education for all and how much will it cost? The Green New Deal will cost between 75 and 95 trillion to make everything inclusive. It will kill incentive and initiate socialism. Socialism has been proven over and over again not to work.

Homosexual rights - the Bible teaches some things are wrong
Here's the problem. The "bible" teaches a lot of things. In the Levitical law, where the prohibition against male homosexuality is mentioned, it also says you can't eat cheeseburgers or get a divorce. So if you won't allow homosexuals in your church, then BY THE EXACT SAME MEASURE you should also not allow anyone who eats cheeseburgers or divorcees. In-fact you should kick out anyone who doesn't eat kosher and observe the Sabbath as well. You can't cherry pick. There's nothing in the "bible" that suggests that male homosexuality is any worse than any of the other thousands of enumerated violations.

We don't live under the Mosaic Law but homosexuality is identified in both testaments as wrong.

because God created humanity with a union of a male with a female in mind as a reflection of a greater truth.
If god made everything, and knows everything, is male homosexuality some sort of "mistake" that god couldn't have "fixed" for some reason?

You seem to equate wrong to God. How is it God's fault if the individual chooses? God reveals what is right and wrong. Humans choose.

#360

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179