-->
@disgusted
You seem to equate wrong to God. How is it God's fault if the individual chooses?On what auspicious date did you choose to be heterosexual?
It is the way I am wired/designed.
A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God
Posts
Total:
1,007
-->
@disgusted
It is when people are murdered or killed or abused by illegal immigrants that would not have been affected if they had not come across your border.So you would threaten your god's plan? Everything that happens is god's plan, what gives you the right to thwart it?
Doing evil is not God's plan. You choose that all by yourself.
.They built walls to protect themselves from those who would do them harm.They built walls as defense against enemies, don't lie.
I'm done with your slurs against my character. You always bring in ad homs. That is why it is useless having a civil discussion with you.
What does that have to do with illegal immigration? They came into the States legally. What about the line of people wanting to come to your country legally that is denied because illegal immigrants take priority?Citation?
-->
@PGA2.0
Jesus Christ. This is 100% anecdotal evidence.
Please provide some verifiable data.
-->
@PGA2.0
It's always good to gave some common ground. You agree then that a person's sexuality is not a choice?On what auspicious date did you choose to be heterosexual?It is the way I am wired/designed.
-->
@PGA2.0
So god never trusted you to make the choice. Does that say something about you or your god or both?
-->
@PGA2.0
Common sense tells me that something can't create itself. It would have to exist before it could create, so self-creation is self-refuting. It is an absurd idea. So, if something started to exist my common sense tells me there must be a cause or agency for it.If the universe had a beginning then it is logical to assume it had a cause because the alternative is self-creation.
GREAT! Now we're almost to where you seem to want to engage the topic. All of the above is for the most part granted by the OP, 19 pages ago. In fact, the experiment doesn't even rely on logic, it simply says "this is what happened for sure, a thinking agent created the universe." Sadly, then you start to wobble again. and try to go through what you think I believe happened instead. That is, once again, immaterial. The question isn't what do I think happened to the universe, at all. Here it is again, from me, to you, page 18:
HIS QUESTION IS FRAMED THROUGH THE LENS OF A CREATOR. The only feature we can KNOW it has is the ability to create a universe, because a universe is here. Please pay attention, because here is the question: Can you support with evidence that the god you so happen to worship IS THAT CREATOR?
There is not even an attempt to answer this. Nor is there an attempt to refute the pantheon being real, but maybe someday. You simply complain that you're not allowed to use your claim as evidence. You hold up the book, say "The stuff in here is true!" and your answer to the sensible 'how do you know?' question is "THE BOOK SAYS THAT IT ITSELF IS TRUE." That's restating your claim. Not supporting with argumentation.
I'm starting with the presupposition that the roman pantheon is real. I know it's real, because it comports with reality, and if I start with the knowledge that Zeus and his cohorts are behind all of the stuff I see, how would I follow that? Hmm. Well, wars exist and are objectively terrible for everyone involved...but why would Mars care about people dying? So long as there's war, he's doing his job. Would an ominbenevolent god allow for this atrocitiy? Maybe, but why? Hmmm. A tidal wave wiped out 250,000 people in Sri Lanka that one time, and I know Neptune, god of the sea, causes those, and also doesn't really care about what happens to the people on land, they're not his problem. That makes sense if I start with the presupposition that Neptune's there. What's that? Someone's telling me it's not Mars or Zeus or Neptune? It's instead some single god from a far less advanced culture?
WHY WOULD I BELIEVE THAT.
This is the question, dude. If you want to ask me anything, feel free to start a topic.
-->
@ludofl3x
If you view presupposition as a tool used by Christians to understand their faith more deeply and not as a tool for converting atheists then it is less problematic.
-->
@keithprosser
I appreciate that, but the topic is, exactly, convince someone that your particular views are correct. This cannot be done in any valid way through presupposition, because the greek pantheon version of the presupposition in equally valid to any other religious presupposition.
Eternal truths exist irrespective of religous presuppostions.
Those who ignore truth are often indoctrinated in irrational, illogical lack of common sense.
Absolute truth is limited set of freedoms that available to all humans, irrespective of whether they seek it or condone it.
-->
@ludofl3x
I have no desire to know how - or if - Christian Presuppositionists deal with that.
Arguing with them is hard work, isn't it?
-->
@keithprosser
Eh, at least this particular one isn't a nasty jerk about it! Plus it makes the slow parts of my work day go quicker. The problem isn't arguing with them, it's apparently getting them to stay on one topic at a time. There is literally nothing inherent to this topic about immigrants or gay people or how our moral system develops, none of those questions are at hand. I'm glad to discuss them, but again, start a topic!
I also don't know why I keep getting asked for what I believe, it's pretty plain.
Ludofl3x---Let's say we take for granted that the universe is here as it is not because of any natural reaction or coincidence, but instead that it was created by a thinking agent.
False. Universe is not created nor destroyed by thinking or non-thinking agents.
Physical//energy cannot be created nor destroyed ergo eternally existent, as is the finite set of cosmic laws/principles that complement them.
Occupied Space is eternally existent and cannot be created nor destroyed.
Eternal truths exist irrespective of religous presuppostions.
Those who ignore truth are often indoctrinated in irrational, illogical lack of common sense.
Absolute truth is limited set of freedoms that available to all humans, irrespective of whether they seek it or condone it.
Seriously, is there a button or setting that keeps a user from seeing posts by a specific user?
Asking for a friend.
-->
@ludofl3x
I just sent two days setting up a new thread and lost all the data by not saving my outline most frustrating. Now I will have to set it up again.
-->
@secularmerlin
On what auspicious date did you choose to be heterosexual?It is the way I am wired/designed.It's always good to gave some common ground. You agree then that a person's sexuality is not a choice?
I believe that we deviate from the norm when we ignore God's word and example. That is the Scriptural teaching. I believe the sinful choices of the father affects the son, up to the third and fourth generation, through example (or lack of) or through gender confusion. If the person does not receive proper reinforcement from the father, or one parent, from a young age I believe they may seek it out in another male role model, or in the case of a girl, a female role model that she lacked. The number of single-family homes would be an explanation of such behaviour occurs (lacking one or the other role model), plus the constant promotion of a gay lifestyle 24/7 in our cultures. Some people just want to experiment.
Thus, I believe, a person chooses to find what they are missing. I believe they choose to make themselves more feminine (or in the case of the female more masculine) to attract members of the same sex and try to find what they lacked.
-->
@secularmerlin
You admitted you have to presuppose this knowledge in order to confirm it.No, that is my starting point.That is literally what a presuposition is.
True, but I make a distinction as to my starting point from an atheist, agnostic or pagan. Core presuppositions are what worldviews are based upon - i.e., either God/gods or chance happenstance. Worldviews are based on a web of core presuppositions. My starting point is God.
-->
@3RU7AL
If you live in texas, you welcome strangers from Oregon 1500 miles away and turn guns on strangers from Chihuahua 10 miles away.Those in Oregon come legally. Do you think you could cross over to Mexico illegally?Not necessarily.Visa overstays from Canada 93,035.Visa overstays from Europe 123,729.Visa overstays from Asia 56,674.Combined total of 273,438. Start panicking now!!!!!!!!Visa overstays from Mexico 42,114.Visa overstays from South America 93,073.Visa overstays from Central America 17,069.Combined total of 152,256.
So, they break the law just like millions in your country have broken the law by being illegal immigrants instead of legal immigrants.
-->
@PGA2.0
Why not just ask the simple questions? No need for an outline, dude, this is passing time, not homework.
To be honest if you need an outline, it's really unlikely that I'm going to read the whole thing anyway. Keep it short and let the discussion bring in whatever it brings in. Otherwise you end up talking about gay immigrants who have nothing to do with how Cronos created the universe.
-->
@PGA2.0
The number of single-family homes would be an explanation of such behaviour occurs (lacking one or the other role model), plus the constant promotion of a gay lifestyle 24/7 in our cultures.
For instance, the odds of homosexuality increased slightly when divorced parents remarried, bringing two step-parents into the picture. However, the likelihood of homosexual orientation actually decreased where there was only one step-parent. A 2008 US study by Andrew Francis found that having no involved parents was mildly associated with a same-sex partner for both boys and girls. However, single parent homes, whether with mom or dad were not associated with having a same-gender partner or romantic attraction to the same sex. [LINK]
In contrast to reparative theory expectations, he reported that identifying as less than 100% heterosexual for males was associated with living with only dad. No romantic attraction or same-sex behavior was reported for males living with only mother. [LINK]
-->
@disgusted
Many would argue that those societies have declined since socialism, as I already pointed out. I would agree.By every metric used to determine human well being the citizens of these socialist countries are better off than all other countries, that makes you and your mythical "many" WRONG.
Sweden is a nation with extraordinary high tax rates. The average worker not only pays 30 percent of her or his income in visible taxes, but, additionally, close to 30 percent in hidden taxes. The defenders of the punishing tax burden argue that it is needed to maintain Sweden’s generous welfare system. While this claim may seem reasonable on its surface, a deeper look suggests that it is based on flawed analysis...
Taxes discourage work and encourage tax avoidance. There is strong evidence that Sweden’s highest rate of individual and capital taxation actually reduces public revenue. For this reason, some taxes, such as the wealth tax, have recently been reduced. The result is estimated to be a net increase in tax revenues.
When Swedish municipalities receive increased funding from the state, the money is used to expand the local bureaucracy, a government survey has shown, instead of going to educators and health care workers.
Municipalities provide much of the welfare in Sweden. The Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions have shown in a study that funding for Swedish municipalities grew dramatically between 1980 and 2005. Despite this, the general public consensus is that the quality of welfare has declined during the same period.
Welfare provisions don’t necessarily correspond with taxation levels. A 2005 research paper examines the efficiency of the public sector in 23 industrialized countries. The researchers found that Sweden only reaches a mediocre 12th place when it comes to how much the public sector provides in terms of welfare services. When the level of welfare is related to the level of taxation, Sweden falls to the last position in the index.
There is a high variation in how effectively public money is spent within Sweden. The Swedish Taxpayers Association has, in a number of surveys, shown that identical welfare services such as care of the elderly, can vary in cost quite dramatically across Sweden.
There are two important reasons why the average Swedish worker pays a large portion of her or his income in taxes, without necessarily receiving an equally high level of welfare.
First, much of the money is spent on administrative costs at various levels of government. Although a small nation, Sweden has over a hundred public authorities. Vast sums are spent on political projects which fall outside the frames of general welfare. It is, for instance, not unusual for Swedish municipalities to fund bowling alleys, swimming pools, or camping places.
Second, a large fraction of the population is living on benefits rather than working,due to the combination of high taxes, a rigid labour market and generous welfare benefits. Even before the economic crisis hit, for example, almost one out of five children in Sweden’s third largest city, Malmö, were living in a family supported by social security. Sweden has 105 local districts where the majority of the population lives off of various public benefits, and does not work. This unintended consequence of the welfare state has taken a heavy toll on public services, since an increasing share of tax revenue must be diverted to fund welfare payments, rather than social services...
The famous Swedish welfare state is to a large degree a notion of the past...
How does looking after the poor coincide with ILLEGAL immigration? These people are breaking the laws of the land. Many are smuggling in illegal drugs and people. Terrorists can negotiate a crossing into your country unhindered. The cost to your country is billions of dollars every year.How many Swedes are crossing the US border illegally? Stick to the already insane argument you were pursuing and leave your brain rattles at home.
-->
@PGA2.0
That's an interesting belief can you demonstrate that it is true?I believe that we deviate from the norm when we ignore God's word and example. That is the Scriptural teaching. I believe the sinful choices of the father affects the son, up to the third and fourth generation, through example (or lack of) or through gender confusion. If the person does not receive proper reinforcement from the father, or one parent, from a young age I believe they may seek it out in another male role model, or in the case of a girl, a female role model that she lacked. The number of single-family homes would be an explanation of such behaviour occurs (lacking one or the other role model), plus the constant promotion of a gay lifestyle 24/7 in our cultures. Some people just want to experiment.Thus, I believe, a person chooses to find what they are missing. I believe they choose to make themselves more feminine (or in the case of the female more masculine) to attract members of the same sex and try to find what they lacked.
-->
@PGA2.0
Interesting. I do not begin with a starting point I merely allow the evidence to inform my beliefs and therefore lack belief of any prospect that lacks sufficient evidence.True, but I make a distinction as to my starting point from an atheist, agnostic or pagan. Core presuppositions are what worldviews are based upon - i.e., either God/gods or chance happenstance. Worldviews are based on a web of core presuppositions. My starting point is God.
-->
@disgusted
How does looking after the poor coincide with ILLEGAL immigration? These people are breaking the laws of the land. Many are smuggling in illegal drugs and people. Terrorists can negotiate a crossing into your country unhindered. The cost to your country is billions of dollars every year.How many Swedes are crossing the US border illegally?
What does Sweden have to do with this?
(The Swedes have not felt the full brunt of socialism yet)
Stick to the already insane argument you were pursuing and leave your brain rattles at home.
Socialist countries of Central America:
Nicaragua
Socialist Party in Power
Socialist Party in Power
Where are the majority of these illegal immigrants coming from?
Central America is now responsible for most of the fluctuation in illegal migrant flows northward. Three countries in particular -- Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador -- account for the bulk of non-Mexican migrants arrested at the U.S.-Mexico border. Because these countries are much smaller than Mexico, they will never come close to supplying a migration surge on the scale of that seen from Mexico in the 1980s and 1990s. Unlike Mexico, however, their economies aren't getting any better. Each of the three countries suffers from rampant violent crime, due to cocaine trafficking from South America and to street gangs that prey on locals through extortion and frequent killings. For instance, El Salvador's annual murder rate is 80 per 100,000 inhabitants, while Honduras' is 59 per 100,000 -- both more than 10 times the United States'.
***
Countries Considered Socialist:
AngolaSocialist Party in Power
Bangladesh
Non-Marxist-Leninist
Barbados
Socialist Party in Power
Bolivia
Socialist Party in Power
China
Marxist-Leninist
Cuba
Marxist-Leninist
Ecuador
Socialist Party in Power
El Salvador
Socialist Party in Power
Ethiopia
Socialist Party in Power
Greece
Socialist Party in Power
Guinea-Bissau
Socialist Party in Power
Guyana
Non-Marxist-Leninist
Laos
Marxist-Leninist
Mauritius
Socialist Party in Power
Mozambique
Socialist Party in Power
Namibia
Socialist Party in Power
Nepal
Non-Marxist-Leninist
Nepal
Socialist Party in Power
Nicaragua
Socialist Party in Power
North Korea
Non-Marxist-Leninist
Portugal
Non-Marxist-Leninist
Republic of the Congo
Socialist Party in Power
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Socialist Party in Power
Sri Lanka
Non-Marxist-Leninist
Suriname
Socialist Party in Power
Tanzania
Non-Marxist-Leninist
Tanzania
Socialist Party in Power
Uruguay
Socialist Party in Power
Venezuela
Socialist Party in Power
Vietnam
Marxist-Leninist
Zambia
Socialist Party in Power
Show me a socialist country that does not exploit its people from the above list (remember, I was born in Zambia and lived there for a segment of my life. I have seen it first hand, along with many other countries in Africa).
-->
@PGA2.0
Surely a country that exploits its people is not socialist? I know of no socialist theorist who has put 'exploitation of the people' as the core principle of socialism!Show me a socialist country that does not exploit its people
African countries are not socialist - they are kleptocracies.
-->
@secularmerlin
I believe that we deviate from the norm when we ignore God's word and example. That is the Scriptural teaching. I believe the sinful choices of the father affects the son, up to the third and fourth generation, through example (or lack of) or through gender confusion. If the person does not receive proper reinforcement from the father, or one parent, from a young age I believe they may seek it out in another male role model, or in the case of a girl, a female role model that she lacked. The number of single-family homes would be an explanation of such behaviour occurs (lacking one or the other role model), plus the constant promotion of a gay lifestyle 24/7 in our cultures. Some people just want to experiment.Thus, I believe, a person chooses to find what they are missing. I believe they choose to make themselves more feminine (or in the case of the female more masculine) to attract members of the same sex and try to find what they lacked.That's an interesting belief can you demonstrate that it is true?
I can demonstrate how it is biblical.
I can also give you various opinions and some stats that support this idea. Other than that, you make up your mind on what you are fed via society and particular paradigms.
Homosexuality is a developmental problem that is almost always the result of problems in family relations, particularly between father and son. As a result of failure with father, the boy does not fully internalize male gender-identity, and develops homosexuality. This is the most commonly seen clinical model. - Joseph Nicolosi, Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality, 1991
Child Abuse and Lesbianism
There are special needs that little girls have that make them unique. When those needs are denied, ignored, or exploited, the future womanhood of that child is in jeopardy.
Just how are those needs denied, ignored, or exploited? Through abuse....Abuse can be overt, as in physical or sexual abuse, or it may be more subtle. Of course, its more subtle versions wouldn't legally qualify as child abuse, but they are forms of abuse nonetheless, and they have far-reaching consequences. One of those consequences is a distorted sexual identity. I have seen, time and again, clear connections between early abuse and confusion in sexuality. And I cannot ignore the histories of the many women I've known who have survived one form of abuse or another and are also attracted to other women. Although abuse by itself does not cause lesbianism, it can certainly be found in the background of may lesbian women and has in many cases been a contributing factor to their orientation. - Carol Ahrens in Desires in Conflict, 1991
Child Abuse and Lesbianism
There are special needs that little girls have that make them unique. When those needs are denied, ignored, or exploited, the future womanhood of that child is in jeopardy.
Just how are those needs denied, ignored, or exploited? Through abuse....Abuse can be overt, as in physical or sexual abuse, or it may be more subtle. Of course, its more subtle versions wouldn't legally qualify as child abuse, but they are forms of abuse nonetheless, and they have far-reaching consequences. One of those consequences is a distorted sexual identity. I have seen, time and again, clear connections between early abuse and confusion in sexuality. And I cannot ignore the histories of the many women I've known who have survived one form of abuse or another and are also attracted to other women. Although abuse by itself does not cause lesbianism, it can certainly be found in the background of may lesbian women and has in many cases been a contributing factor to their orientation. - Carol Ahrens in Desires in Conflict, 1991
Our societies promote sex, divorce, promiscuous lifestyles through the media and Hollywood. We are bombarded with it. We see the breakdown of family units in everything we watch and through our experiences. So I ask you, is it a reasonable deduction that if you only grew up with one family member then you are more likely to seek the missing family member and shape yourself to fulfilling such missing role models in your relationships (thus we see more and more of the gay lifestyle in society)? If you, as a young girl, were molested by your father, would you not be more inclined to seek a woman as your positive role model because you associate pain and wrongful action from a source that you should have found love from? If you are influenced mainly by the mother figure you would be more likely to exhibit feminine attributes than if you had equal role model influences. If your mother is the dominant role model how much of that rubs off on you? These are all questions that I personally belief affects your upbringing. Thus, the Bible says:
for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
So, sins can show up in future generations because the father and mother live sinful lifestyles that rub off on the children and they, in turn, follow suit in sinful actions.
Statistically, does divorce create more problems than remaining married for the offspring? I believe that the case can be made effectively.
-->
@secularmerlin
True, but I make a distinction as to my starting point from an atheist, agnostic or pagan. Core presuppositions are what worldviews are based upon - i.e., either God/gods or chance happenstance. Worldviews are based on a web of core presuppositions. My starting point is God.Interesting. I do not begin with a starting point I merely allow the evidence to inform my beliefs and therefore lack belief of any prospect that lacks sufficient evidence.
Sure you do. Worldviews look at the world through these basic, core, foundational starting blocks or beliefs. You just don't realize your starting point and how it influences how you look at everything. You seem to think that a lack of belief in God does not funnel how you look at everything else. You are persuaded by a NATURALISTIC outlook when you deny God. You tend to understand everything through such an outlook when you deny God.
-->
@PGA2.0
Are you saying it is impossible to start from a neutral position on God's existence and deduce whether God does or doesn't exist?
-->
@PGA2.0
I'm afraid that doesn't matter unless the bible van be demonstrated to be an authority on human sexuality.I can demonstrate how it is biblical.
-->
@PGA2.0
True, but I make a distinction as to my starting point from an atheist, agnostic or pagan. Core presuppositions are what worldviews are based upon - i.e., either God/gods or chance happenstance. Worldviews are based on a web of core presuppositions. My starting point is God.
We already agreed the "starting point" is "an intelligent designer".
Now we just need to figure out which one.
Sure you do. Worldviews look at the world through these basic, core, foundational starting blocks or beliefs. You just don't realize your starting point and how it influences how you look at everything. You seem to think that a lack of belief in God does not funnel how you look at everything else. You are persuaded by a NATURALISTIC outlook when you deny God. You tend to understand everything through such an outlook when you deny God.
I do not deny any god(s) I just do not believe in any god(s). In any case my original starting point was theistic. I once believed but then examined my beliefs to see if they could be logically supported and this led me to atheism. If you can begin with the starting point that sone god(s) exist and then by following the evidence can come to the conclusion that there is no sufficient evidence for any god[s) perhaps your hypothesis should be adjusted.