A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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#781
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@disgusted
You are being irrational. How can you see a Spiritual Being?
You are being irrational. How can you see a make believe Being?
I'm not being irrational. What is irrational about not being able to see Spirit? It is you, not me, who believes God is make-believe. 

You are being irrational. How can you see a non existent Being?

Are you saying that only what you can "see" exists? Is that a rational belief?

And what do you mean by "see?" Do you mean "physical sight" or understanding?

How do I see your thoughts? But I understand you have them. I can't physically grab them, nor smell them, nor hear them unless you express them, nor feel them, nor taste them. Does that make them unreal?
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I'm not being irrational. What is irrational about not being able to see Spirit? It is you, not me, who believes God is make-believe. 
What is irrational is claiming without supporting evidence that such a thing as spirit exists. I also believe that your heaven is a pacifier for your abject fear of death, both of my beliefs are sound and you have no evidence to contradict them.
BTW the "seeing" problem is what you brought to the table, so you answer it.


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I presented some evidence from the claims.
Please try to understand the difference between some and sufficient and if possible also the difference between claims and evidence.
I can present much more yet it keeps being dismissed.
Am I being somehow unclear about what level of evidence I am able to accept? If you have any evidence for any god(s) that is not either biblical or anecdotal please presentit otherwise I cannot accept that you have met your burden of proof.
There is an intricate network of prophecy that connects both testaments in ways those not well versed in the knowledge of the Bible miss. 
Again so what? Even If we grant that the bible has real infallible prophecy that tells us nothing about where this prophecy came from. Any god(s) would still have to be demonstrated separate of any hypothetical prophecy contained in the bible.

It does not matter whether or not there is prophecy in the bible and it does not matter if it was accurate. Please move on to your next best proof this one is insufficient.
The claim and then the evidence was just ignored as per usual all the while claiming I did not present any. 
I acknowledge your claim. You claim that the biblical god Yahweh must necessarily exist. The problem is your propensity to use the same document which claims the Yahweh exists as the central proof in your argument. If you cannot prove that any gid(s) exist independently of this documentbthem  nothing contained in the document matter. We have no actionable data.

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It is you, not me, who believes God is make-believe. 
We both agree that most gods are imaginary. I'm only asking what sets your god(s) apart from any other religions god(s) with or without prophecies or testimonial evidence?

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@secularmerlin
What demonstration? You just said you are not expressing anything.
I am giving a demonstration of two things and then two more things. The words two and four are unnecessary in the process.
What does it demonstrate unless there is meaning behind it?

 
Just saying something like me being irrational doesn't necessarily make it so. 
Well stated. Do you therfore retract your claim that I am being irrational?
No.

What is irrational about not being able to see Spirit? 
What is rational about claiming a spirit exists if you cannot demonstrate that any spirits exist?
I can give reasons for the Spirit existing. God expresses Himself by His thoughts to us in which He reveals many proofs of what He says as true. Is that unreasonable to believe?

Make sense of the world without first presupposing God.
Disproving other hypothesis does born in any way bring us closer to yours.
If the other hypothesis has little to zero explanatory power - yes.


Even if every other conceivable hypothesis could be refuted you must still prove your claim correct or there is no reason to accept it.
I can only prove it is reasonable. The rest is up to you since I can't make you believe in something you do not want to believe in. That, in fact, is the message of Hebrews 11:6.


It is beyond human epistemology to say what if anything caused the big bang and at least since then the universe has run on mundane physical processes to the degree that we can determine how the universe runs at all.
Yes, unaided it does go beyond human epistemology! But either we are speaking of self-creation (i.e., the Big Bang is the cause of itself in that nothing caused something to exist which goes beyond reason, the universe is eternal, which begs the question of how we ever arrive at the present, or something or Someone caused the universe to exist), or God creation. 

Again, if you want to offer an alternative to these I'm listening. If not then what is more reasonable to believe? 

You assume that God cannot be demonstrated to a reasonable degree to exist.
I assume no such thing. In fact past experience has led me to believe that no theistic/spiritual/metaphysical claim can be adequately demonstrated. That is no guarantee that none ever will but the sheer number of directly contradictory claims and the absolute lack of physical evidence of any kind leads me to be somewhat skeptical.
Why is your past experience something that is reliable in determining whether God exists or not or can be demonstrated as reasonable to believe?


You are not a necessary being.
Au contraire from my perspective I am the only necessary being (assuming even I exist which would explain why my nose itches sometimes) and I cannot be completely certain that you exist. I am prepared to accept that you do since my perceptions woild.seem to indicate that you do and because I enjoy these conversations and they would be less enjoyable if they were completely one sided.
You are not a necessary being. Your existence did not cause my existence. Thus, you are not necessary for my existence. You are not the being that all other beings come from. Your existence does not mean that what you believe is right or good is actually "right" or "good." 

Now, if you want to believe you are that necessary being and you are having a conversation with yourself because you made me up then so be it. Shall you continue this conversation, Irene (me, myself and I)?

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@secularmerlin

making sense of origins, morality, existence?
Origins: I don't know why or how the big bang started and that is the earliest event we have observable evidence for. That means we cannot know how or why it began or even if how, why or began are sensible terms to use in this context. 
Thus, you cannot make sense of it with the worldview you currently hold. That has been my claim all along and I have invited you to try. Thus far - zippo. You would have to borrow from my Christian worldview to make sense of origins. 


Morality: morality seems to be a learned behavior.
Behaviour is what is. Morality is what ought to be. How does behaviour explain what ought to be?

Viewed in purely anthropological terms it would seem that working and living together helps pur species survive and reproduce and so we all enter into the social contract as an evolved behavioral trait. Even if there is more to it than that this is still technically true so if you claim that it is more it is up to you to prove that it is anything more.
Again, if we are just biological bags of atoms why should my reactions be the same as yours?

If my biochemical makeup makes me respond differently from yours what is right or wrong about that? 

Why should I want your survival if your competing deters from my survival? If we are both competing for the same food source why should I think of your survival?

Why should I adopt what you deem as good for me? What if my genetic makeup determines that you are a detriment to my survival?


Existence: I feel as though I exist and other stuff would also appear to exist. These feelings and perceptions may or may not be illusory but even if they are I can still make observations and learn about my perceived reality and so I accept reality prima facie purely as a convenience.


Yet it does not explain why you are here. It lacks what is necessary to do this. My Christian worldview has a reason for your existence. 


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@secularmerlin
The Bible does not contradict what we would expect from Almighty God.
The bible is the claim and while it does in fact appear to contradict itself in several places it wouldn't matter if no contradictions were evident the claim still cannot be used as the evidence for itself.
I have not just used the claim. I have provided both logic and evidence of the claim in numerous posts through these threads. 

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@secularmerlin
Any god that gives false information is not a god to be trusted. 
I agree.
 As I said before, I'm along with you in showing that no god makes sense except the biblical God. If you want to try and make sense of another, please do. 
I am not the one making a claim you are. It doesn't matter how many other hypothesis you can eliminate if you have not proven yours. The scientific method demands that we try our very hardest to disprove a hypothesis and if we cannot and another team cannot and several other scientists cannot then maybe maybeit's true. How would we even go about doing this with your proposed god(s)?
You can go through life wandering aimlessly with no certainty because what you believe does not have what is necessary for certainty.  
I have no choice but to acknowledge that humans are mostly incapable of objective certainty on any point.

On any point? Are you sure of no objective certainty on any point or else what you have said is self-defeating? (i.e., You can't even be objectively certain on that point)  

Nor can they be in regards to such things as origins, existence, morality UNLESS there is a necessary Being that has revealed as much to us. That is why your worldview does not have what is necessary to make sense of these things.



The fact that I try to avoid believing in what is not necessarily certain is precisely why I remain skeptical of your claims until thay can be demonstrateded.

Again, I can only demonstrate to a logical and reasonable degree. Can you? What you do and how you interpret the evidence is another matter. But the evidence is there that backs up biblical "claims." 
#789
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@secularmerlin
No, my claim is that the biblical God is true.
I understand that this is your overarching claim but that requires independent verification. The bible by itself is by its very nature insufficient. 
The Bible makes these statements or claims yet there is evidence that confirms them which you and others have demonstrated you are not willing to look at. 

Is there good evidence for these claims - yes. Can you reasonably refute it? I do not believe so. 

Is there good evidence that most or every OT writing is  written before the 1st-century?

Did these OT writings contain prophecies on not only the destruction of the temple and city but also the entire OT economy? 

Did these events not happen in AD 70? 

Thus, there is evidence of biblical veracity.

There are lots of lies and liars in the Bible
Then why are you attempting to use it as a source? Honestly.
The flaw is from human beings, not God. Satan is described as a liar and the father or all lies. Does that mean God lied? No, it does not. My claim is that what God says it true.

God is not one of them.
Assuming such a being exists can you demonstrate that it is not a liar or is that just another bald assertion that I am supposed to accept axiomatically?
I have offered to give evidence and most atheists shut down the conversation because they are not interested in anything but their own talking points. 

Satan was false in what he taught under the guise of truth.
If Stan can do that then how can you be certain your personal religious truth is not him off some other force "teaching under the guise of truth"? Can you prove that Stan did not inspire the bible in order to influence humanity to evil?
I can only give you a good reason to why. What you do with it is up to you. 

the Bible has a lot to say about. 
The. Bible. Is. The. Claim. Litteraly nothing it says is evidence unto itself.
A claim from your highest authority which is probably you.

Why can't God reveal Himself in the form of these writings? If God is the greatest conceivable being and He has chosen to reveal Himself in this manner then why would all the evidence in the universe not confirm Him in some way?

Again, prophecy is a claim that is confirmed by history. It is reasonable and logical to believe.



You must prove every claim presented in the book individually and independently. If that seems like can insurmountable task it could be because the evidence available is insufficient to demonstrate your claims.


Since you do not have trust in God that would be your requirement that you dictate to God. The biblical God continues to demonstrate to the believe His existence every day in what He has made and through His word. 

I have offered many times to show others that prophecy is reasonably confirmed in history. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this before it sinks in. 
#790
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@PGA2.0
Making sense.
A giant green six legged frog created existence.
Superman comics are proof that superman exists.

My claim is that what God says it true.
And yet you have nothing that your god has said.

Since you do not have trust in God that would be your requirement that you dictate to God.
Oh most assuredly it is the believer who dictates via his imagination to god. His imagination determines every action, all behaviour, all attributes and concepts of the god they believe in.

What was prophesied to happen in 70 weeks and did it occur in that time frame.
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@PGA2.0
What does it demonstrate unless there is meaning behind it?
Humans assign meaning. Nothing is intrinsically meaningful.
Is that unreasonable to believe?
It is never reasonable to believe a claim without sufficient evidence.
If the other hypothesis has little to zero explanatory power - yes.
That is irrelevant unless you prove your hypothesis.
I can only prove it is reasonable. The rest is up to you since I can't make you believe in something you do not want to believe in. That, in fact, is the message of Hebrews 11:6.
If you think I am able to.just believe whatever I want then you are quite mistaken. Beliefs are not a choice they are a realization.
the Big Bang is the cause of itself in that nothing caused something to exist which goes beyond reason, the universe is eternal, which begs the question of how we ever arrive at the present, or something or Someone caused the universe to exist), or God creation. 
Without evidence I don't see how you could ever determine which (if any) of these possibilities is actually the truth. I'm afraid that without further information I must rejectvall these hypotheses.
Again, if you want to offer an alternative to these I'm listening. 
It doesn't matter if I add one new possibility or one hundred or none. Without any sufficient evidence we cannot know which is correct even if we eliminate some of the possibilities.
Why is your past experience something that is reliable in determining whether God exists or not or can be demonstrated as reasonable to believe?
I cannot be certain. If however my past experiences cannot be used to learn then I cannot learn and this conversation is largely meaningless. 
You are not a necessary being. Your existence did not cause my existence. 
If I do not exist there is no reason for me to believe that you exist. From my perspective your existence is contingent on my being real (something I accept but can never be objectively certain of). Prove that you exist independent of my perceptions of you independently of my perceptions of you.
Your existence does not mean that what you believe is right or good is actually "right" or "good." 
Right and good are subjective opinions not quantifiable facts one cannot measure rightness.
Now, if you want to believe you are that necessary being and you are having a conversation with yourself because you made me up then so be it. 
I've already told you I am willing to accept that you exist provisionally and as a convenience. That will have to be good enough since I have no way of testing "reality" for realness.
you cannot make sense of it with the worldview you currently hold.
You still don't seem to understand. I don't believe humans can make sense of it. I accept not knowing (even if I'm not entirely satisfied with it) I don't have to lie to myself and pretend I have the right answer I'm comfortable with admittingthat I don't know. Dude get comfortable with it humans don't know mist stuff.
You would have to borrow from my Christian worldview to make sense of origins
Why would I borrow from a worldview that simply accepts claims with no sufficient physical evidence? That isn't making sense of origins it's guessing at them.

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@secularmerlin
Not me mate. LOL.
#793
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@PGA2.0
Morality is what ought to be
What makes what ought to be mire than a subjective opinion? 
Again, if we are just biological bags of atoms why should my reactions be the same as yours?
Clearly we do not always react the same. We react differently to anecdotal evidence for example.
If my biochemical makeup makes me respond differently from yours what is right or wrong about that? 
Right and wrong are subjective opinions not quantifiable facts one cannot measure rightness.
Why should I want your survival if your competing deters from my survival?
Generally speaking it does not. Humans are a social species. We need one another to survive. I'm afraid this is a poor straw man.
 My Christian worldview has a reason for your existence. 
It has a proposed unproven reason.
I have not just used the claim. I have provided both logic and evidence of the claim in numerous posts through these threads. 
All of your arguments presuppose the existence of your god(s) they do not properly establish it however.
On any point? Are you sure of no objective certainty on any point or else what you have said is self-defeating? (i.e., You can't even be objectively certain on that point
That is correct. Paradoxical as it may seem I cannot be objectively certain that no human could ever be objectively certain of anything because as a human I cannot be objectively certain of anything.
UNLESS there is a necessary Being
How would any being change the subjective nature of the human condition? Even if your claim is correct objective certainty is still probably beyond human beings.
Again, I can only demonstrate to a logical and reasonable degree.
Yeah but can you because you keep not doing.that.
Thus, there is evidence of biblical veracity.
If we grant that some prophecy from the bible camectrye that is at mist evidence of the veracity of the particular prophecy under discussion but not necessarily any other part of the bible please understand this as I have said it again and again. Prophesy (true or not) is irrelevant to the other claims made by the bible.
The flaw is from human beings, not God. Satan is described as a liar and the father or all lies. Does that mean God lied? No, it does not. My claim is that what God says it true.
Firstly this is just a one long bald assertion but it doesn't matter if your right or not. Let's assume that the flaws in the bible are from humans. There are still flaws. Unless you have some way of determining thevfkawed passages from those which are not flawed the rntire bible is questionable.
I have offered to give evidence and most atheists shut down the conversation because they are not interested in anything but their own talking points. 
So far your best "evidence" is that there may be an irrelevant prophecy in the document that makes the claim you are supporting even though you have admitted that the book may contain flaws and even though books can contain both true and false information.

You also mentioned that historic figures/places appear in the document that makes the claim but historical figures are included in works of fiction regularly so that is not strictly speaking evidence either.

If we eliminate these two arguments what is your third best argument?
I can only give you a good reason to why.
But can you though?
Why can't God reveal Himself in the form of these writings?
I suppose some god(s) could but if that is the case I'm not sure how to distinguish between the "true" godclaim and the thousands of "false" godclaims. They All have a similar level of evidence. The anecdotal experience of its followers and it's scriptural writings/recitations. I swear I am having virtually the same conversation with Yassine. "Oh allah explains everything and you can't explain anything therefore allah". Please don't bother telling me why you think Islam is incorrect by the way it doesn't matter. Islam being incorrect does not make you correct.
why would all the evidence in the universe not confirm Him in some way?
That's a good question especially since all the testable evidence only confirms mundane physics at work.
prophecy is a claim that is confirmed by history. It is reasonable and logical to believe.
Prophesy is an irrelevant red herring.
Since you do not have trust in God that would be your requirement that you dictate to God. The biblical God continues to demonstrate to the believe His existence every day in what He has made and through His word. 
Are you saying that your claims cannot be demonstrated to me until I accept your claim? That is the definition of confirmation bias. You don't have to believe in gravity for me to demonstrate it to you. 
I have offered many times to show others that prophecy is reasonably confirmed in history.
Prophecy is an irrelevant red herring.

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@disgusted
Yes not you. Sorry about that.
#795
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@secularmerlin
Prophecy is an irrelevant red herring.

If i prophecied you would be struck by a semi truck 3 days from now, are you willing to accept that prophecy is not irrelevant? 

or if i prophecied that a friend of yours would recieve 33.000$ in 2 days and it happened, would you give credience that there is a God who knows all things?
Ive found people say things are irrelevant when it doesn't apply to them. could you imagine having a prophecy of God telling you what will come to pass in your life?
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@Melcharaz
If i prophecied you would be struck by a semi truck 3 days from now, are you willing to accept that prophecy is not irrelevant?  

or if i prophecied that a friend of yours would recieve 33.000$ in 2 days and it happened, would you give credience that there is a God who knows all things?
Ive found people say things are irrelevant when it doesn't apply to them. could you imagine having a prophecy of God telling you what will come to pass in your life?
I'm going to jump in here. Would you accept that i have had prophecies? Several where i've predicted outcomes in my life perfectly... so much so i thought i was psychic. Now, i have had more than just prophecies as experiences. I have also had experiences that seemingly break the laws we are aware of that this world should be following... All in all, i've had more than a dozen, maybe two... i've lost count... spiritual experiences spanning my life to present day. I almost want to write a book... i've recently been contemplating that. 

But here is the kicker. I don't believe in Christianity or any of the major religions. There of course are some philosophies and some religion/beliefs that correlate to my belief... but not exactly. Another minor spiritual experience is that as soon as i was old enough to think (or remember) 4/5 years old... i have always known my spiritual belief... before i even heard of religion or spirituality. Religion stole me away from my belief for a short while... but my experiences worked out perfectly to bring me back to what i knew as a child. My experiences have basically, to present, proved that i am right about my belief. 

So, how do you answer that? I also have a very specific reason i don't believe what you do. But i'll bring that up later if you decide to discuss this. Right now i want to know: Why should i believe what you do when i have proof... as much as you can have in this life, that i'm right? 
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God is able to express himself in more ways than one, if you have had out of body experiences or have had visions or miracles, those fall perfectly in the perimeters of scripture.   If God gives you the ability to prophecy and it comes to past then i cannot fault you for being used by God.  However, a prophecy must always come to past exactly as it is said.   And there have been prophets who did prophecy, but turned away from the faith. The gifts of God are without repentance after all.
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A good example of a person who was a prophet but didn't obey God was balaam in numbers 23, he hated israel so much he often sought enchantments against them and was bought by balak to curse them.  God told him not to and he built an altar to God and prophecied of Jesus's Birth, and talked about the star that signified it.   And he even blessed israel afterwords! Telling balak that he cannot go beyond God's command. Even though later he tried to curse israel and the Lord made the donkey to talk to him to save his life.
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@Melcharaz
You forgot the bit about how the "cow jumped over the moon".
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@Outplayz
The chap who believes he is Napoleon has the exact same reasons you have for your beliefs.
#801
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the scripture doesn't tell of a cow jumping over a moon. Don't use sarcasm when speaking to me, i don't do well in interpreting it.  It took me a minute to just realize you Might? not be speaking in regard to scripture. infact im still not sure.


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@disgusted
sorry, forgot to mention reciever again.
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@Melcharaz
The cow jumping over the moon is just as credible as a donkey talking, both fairytales, one for children and the other for the gullible.
#804
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@secularmerlin
Even if we do not dispute the efficacy of the prophecy this tells us literally nothing about the source of the prophesy and until we determine that some god(s) were necessarily the source the existence of some god(s) would still need to be verified independently of said prophecy. The prophecy's efficacy acy or lack thereof is not evidence of anything but the efficacy of that single prophecy and nothing more.
The Bible discloses the source of prophecy is God, the one true and living God. Prophecy is evidenced by history. 

I'm not speaking of a single prophecy but hundreds of prophecies.

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actually, talking to animals is quite common in witchcraft, i invite you to research it!  But the way animals often is speak is through a spirit, in the case of balaam, God opened the mouth and allowed it to speak, in other instances you will find demonic spirits giving similar abilities.
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@Melcharaz
If i prophecied you would be struck by a semi truck 3 days from now, are you willing to accept that prophecy is not irrelevant? 
It would be irrelevant to the question at hand.
or if i prophecied that a friend of yours would recieve 33.000$ in 2 days and it happened, would you give credience that there is a God who knows all things?
No I would not. 
Ive found people say things are irrelevant when it doesn't apply to them. could you imagine having a prophecy of God telling you what will come to pass in your life? 
I can imagine it sure but I cannot believe it without sufficient evidence and even is some prophecy that was verifiably accurate pertaining directly to me did exist that would not tell us the source of this prophecy. Any number of possibilities (including lucky guessing) could account for it as easily as some god(s) might.

That is why prophecy is an irrelevant red herring. It has nothing to do with my being personally involved and everything to do with prophecy not being sufficient evidence of anything but the prophecy itself (if said prophecy can even be authenticated).
#807
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@secularmerlin
Prophecy is more than just foretelling what will happen, its also encouragement and mandates to obey the Lord, often prophets condemn sin and stress to the people to return to the Lord and know better times, Joel talks about how the land will be restored for example.
#808
secularmerlin
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@PGA2.0
The Bible discloses the source of prophecy is God
This is a claim not evidence for any claim.
I'm not speaking of a single prophecy but hundreds of prophecies.
I honestly don't care if it is millions of prophecies. If one does not act as sufficient evidence I don't see why you would think thst millions would. What you have if you are correct is thousands of irrelevant red herrings. 
#809
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@Melcharaz
Prophecy is more than just foretelling what will happen, its also encouragement and mandates to obey the Lord, often prophets condemn sin and stress to the people to return to the Lord and know better times, Joel talks about how the land will be restored for example. 
This is a claim not the evidence for any claim.

#810
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@secularmerlin
im aware of this.